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klaster

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  • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
    Nutne potrebuju vedet, jestli je (byl) klaster v Oseku pro mnichy nebo pro jeptisky. Nevi nekdo? Jamie
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
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      Nutne potrebuju vedet, jestli je (byl) klaster v Oseku pro mnichy nebo pro
      jeptisky. Nevi nekdo?

      Jamie
    • otto@pacholik.cz
      Urcite ano: http://www.kulturklub.cz/direct-contacts.htm rika: - Cloister Osek Cisterciacky klaster Osek CZ-417 15 Osek Tel.: (417) - 937393 Konzerte *
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
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        Urcite ano:

        http://www.kulturklub.cz/direct-contacts.htm rika:

        - Cloister Osek Cisterciacky klaster Osek
        CZ-417 15 Osek Tel.: (417) - 937393
        Konzerte * Ausstellungen

        Otto
      • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
        ... Thank you, but this is a Czenglish translation, like cosmetics Avon . The word cloister doesn t help me, because it s not really natural to use in an
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
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          In a message dated 9/4/01 7:31:56 AM, otto@... writes:

          > - Cloister Osek Cisterciacky klaster Osek
          > CZ-417 15 Osek Tel.: (417) - 937393
          > Konzerte * Ausstellungen

          Thank you, but this is a Czenglish translation, like "cosmetics Avon". The
          word "cloister" doesn't help me, because it's not really natural to use in an
          ordinary modern text, and it still doesn't tell whether the building is a
          monastery or a convent. Plus, nowadays the word "cloister" usually indicates
          the part of a convent where certain nuns are perpetually isolated in
          individual cells, rather than the whole convent.

          So, this is my problem. I need to know if the klaster was a monastery or a
          convent.

          Jamie
        • otto@pacholik.cz
          Sorry Jamie, I misunderstood your question and didn t want to offend you with Czenglish. I thought you were asking if such monastery existed at all. AFAIK -
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
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            Sorry Jamie,

            I misunderstood your question and didn't want to offend you with
            Czenglish. I thought you were asking if such monastery existed at all.

            AFAIK - ciesterciaci were monks rather than nuns, see
            http://www.ckk.cz/~novotna/rady.html

            Otto
          • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
            ... No offense taken. ... Thanks very much. I thought there were also Cistercian nuns, though. This is going to take some investigation. Jamie
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
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              In a message dated 9/4/01 7:44:17 AM, otto@... writes:

              >I misunderstood your question and didn't want to offend you with
              >Czenglish. I thought you were asking if such monastery existed at all.

              No offense taken.

              >AFAIK - ciesterciaci were monks rather than nuns, see
              >http://www.ckk.cz/~novotna/rady.html

              Thanks very much. I thought there were also Cistercian nuns, though. This
              is going to take some investigation.

              Jamie
            • zehrovak@dr.com
              There s a very respectable-looking site at http://fmv.vse.cz/cz/castles/osek.htm. which goes into the history of the Cistercian Monastery at Osek. Haven t had
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
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                There's a very respectable-looking site at


                http://fmv.vse.cz/cz/castles/osek.htm.


                which goes into the history of the Cistercian Monastery at Osek.
                Haven't had time to read it all but it seems pretty clear from a quick
                skim that it was established and operated by Cistercian monks.

                M.
              • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
                ... Thank you. This helps me a lot! Jamie
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
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                  In a message dated 9/4/01 7:57:14 AM, zehrovak@... writes:

                  >http://fmv.vse.cz/cz/castles/osek.htm.
                  >
                  >
                  >which goes into the history of the Cistercian Monastery at Osek.
                  >Haven't had time to read it all but it seems pretty clear from a quick
                  >skim that it was established and operated by Cistercian monks.

                  Thank you. This helps me a lot!

                  Jamie
                • zehrovak@dr.com
                  ... Curses! First I hit the send button and then I spotted the period at the end of the link. Of course, this should read:
                  Message 8 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
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                    --- In Czechlist@y..., JPKIRCHNER@a... wrote:
                    >
                    > In a message dated 9/4/01 7:57:14 AM, zehrovak@d... writes:
                    >
                    > >http://fmv.vse.cz/cz/castles/osek.htm.
                    > >
                    > >

                    Curses! First I hit the send button and then I spotted the period at
                    the end of the link. Of course, this should read:

                    http://fmv.vse.cz/cz/castles/osek.htm

                    BTW I'd definitely agree that there are Cistercian nuns too.

                    M
                  • PSS Praha - Coilin O' Connor
                    ... an ... I am not trying to pick a fight :-) but I think cloister is totally fine even in a modern English context, and I have heard it used quite
                    Message 9 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
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                      >
                      > Thank you, but this is a Czenglish translation ... The
                      > word "cloister" doesn't help me, because it's not really natural to use in
                      an
                      > ordinary modern text, and it still doesn't tell whether the building is a
                      > monastery or a convent.

                      I am not trying to pick a fight :-) but I think "cloister" is totally fine
                      even in a modern English context, and I have heard it used quite frequently
                      in good old Catholic Ireland. It is a very handy word if you want to refer
                      to monasteries and convents in general or if you don' t know whether such a
                      building houses nuns or monks. It is also defined by the OED as "a convent
                      or monastery" without any reference being made to its having fallen out of
                      usage. I think that sometimes in our desperation to avoid Czenglish, we
                      overcompensate and end up "dumbing down" our translations. We shouldn' t
                      underestimate the intelligence of our target readership. As a native
                      speaker, if I am reading a text on an area with which I am not familiar and
                      I find a word I don' t know, I am quite willing to look up an
                      English-English dictionary to find out what it means. After all, without
                      over 700,000 words in the English language one can't know them all.
                    • PSS Praha - Coilin O' Connor
                      ... Whoops! this should be with over 700,000 words brgds Coilin
                      Message 10 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
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                        > English-English dictionary to find out what it means. After all, without
                        > over 700,000 words in the English language one can't know them all.

                        Whoops! this should be "with over 700,000 words"

                        brgds

                        Coilin
                      • Simon Vaughan
                        ... FWIW, I used Osek Monastery and the Cistercian monastery in* Osek in the Molitor catalogue I translated last summer. *I suppose at might be
                        Message 11 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
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                          > >which goes into the history of the Cistercian Monastery at Osek.
                          > >Haven't had time to read it all but it seems pretty clear from a quick
                          > >skim that it was established and operated by Cistercian monks.

                          FWIW, I used 'Osek Monastery' and 'the Cistercian monastery in* Osek' in
                          the Molitor catalogue I translated last summer.

                          *I suppose 'at' might be preferable if (as it seems) Osek is a small
                          place.

                          Simon
                        • Tony Long
                          I don t know about precision vs. dumbing down, and my existence is so cloistered that it fails to include much modern Irish, but I think the whole debate
                          Message 12 of 13 , Sep 5, 2001
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                            I don't know about precision vs. dumbing down, and my existence is so
                            cloistered that it fails to include much modern Irish, but I think the whole
                            debate hinges on who uses the word most, to whom, and in what, and whether
                            our translation will create confusion or not.

                            The people who use the word 'cloister(s)' most in English are those who
                            write about architecture. They do so to inform fellow architects of a
                            particular kind of structure, or to describe such a structure to
                            tourists/interested visitors. The word usually appears in journals and
                            tourist literature.

                            This structure/area may be part of a monastery or a nunnery. It is not
                            usually the whole thing. My ancient Chambers Etymological Dictionary gives:
                            'a covered arcade forming a part of a monastic or collegiate establishment;
                            a place of religious retirement, a monastery or a nunnery' then derives the
                            word from Old French and Latin for 'to shut, close'.
                            A Faber dictionary of architecture (1993): 'A covered and often vaulted walk
                            around an open space (or Garth) that is usually square on plan, having a
                            largely solid outer wall and openings, sometimes filled with tracery, on the
                            garth. A feature particularly of monasteries, in which it forms a passageway
                            from the church to the chapter-house, refectory, etc.

                            IMO, whatever its original meaning or use - and whatever relict usage
                            survives in special circumstances such as religion-marinated Erin Go Brath -
                            'cloister' as a noun refers to part of a building/complex, not the whole
                            thing. As a verb, it means 'to confine', with overtones of uncomfortable but
                            necessary proximity, possibly secrecy; 'he's been cloistered with the
                            designers for hours. I wonder what they're cooking up'.

                            In all the religious, historical, and tourist literature we have translated
                            over the years, I have always avoided using the word 'cloister' at all, in
                            order to avoid confusion. If it's a place, then it's a monastery, convent,
                            nunnery, retreat, college, etc. If it's a covered walk with fancy vaulting
                            around a courtyard, then that's what I say, one way or another. The
                            definitions often mean that we have to talk to the author or even ask for
                            photographs or go for a look - not always practical, I know.

                            False friends always seem to invite the 'shoe-horn' approach - with
                            etymology at one's side, a body of loose usage from previous literature
                            egging one on, and a cosy feeling of technical rectitude, one squeezes the
                            meaning into the word and leaves the text to limp on - in the assumption
                            that one will never have to meet it again, a couple of years later, and see
                            just how crippled it is ....

                            As a hollow laugh and a reminder to beware of similar-looking words,
                            especially on Latin roots, the pencil-holder on our kitchen shelf is a posh
                            jar from Harrods (booty from some pharma-freebie), the label of which
                            proudly proclaims: 'Home Produced Organic Marmalade guaranteed free of
                            artificial preservatives'. I should bloodywell hope so - but there's a
                            couple more in there as well.

                            Best

                            Tony
                          • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
                            I liked your discussion of this word. ... It depends on what you are exposed to in life. I hear the term cloister used far less in an architectural meaning
                            Message 13 of 13 , Sep 5, 2001
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                              I liked your discussion of this word.

                              >The people who use the word 'cloister(s)' most in English are those who
                              >write about architecture.

                              It depends on what you are exposed to in life. I hear the term "cloister"
                              used far less in an architectural meaning than in relation to the practice of
                              cloistering nuns. In that sense too, it refers only to part of the convent
                              or monastery.

                              Jamie
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