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Re: [Czechlist] TERMS: stredni odborna skola/ stredni odborne uciliste

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  • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
    ... Then why not use a British circumlocution? I agree with you, as long as that phrase is not liable to be misinterpreted outside Britain, which grammar
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
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      In a message dated 8/3/01 11:56:44 AM, rachelandsimon@... writes:

      >> We'd need some sort of circumlocution for that, because in the US
      >> our high schools combine gymnazium and stredni odborna skola,...

      >It seems a shame to use an American circumlocution when British English
      >has a nice neat phrase.

      Then why not use a British circumlocution?

      I agree with you, as long as that phrase is not liable to be misinterpreted
      outside Britain, which "grammar school" will be. My analogy is that here in
      Michigan we have a very useful term, "party store", for a certain kind of
      shop, but even though it fits the meaning better than any term I've ever
      heard, no one outside of Michigan will understand it, so I can't use it in a
      translation. The same would go for BE "pants", which would be interpreted as
      "trousers" by most native English speakers, but "underpants" would be
      understood by everyone.

      >> By no means would I use "grammar school", though. One of the problems
      >> with saying you don't have to consider the sensibilities of North
      >> American readers is that you never know who is going to need to use
      >> that document, or what other audiences your document will be recycled
      >> to address.

      >I get what you're saying, but this document is not intended for Americans.
      >In the event that it reaches them, they'll just have to use what wit they
      >have to figure out what's going on. I can't cater to all tastes.

      We can never cater to all tastes, but this isn't a matter of taste. As I
      say, English documents, and parts thereof, get recycled for different
      purposes and for different nations (as I see happen in Detroit with German,
      French and Spanish documents), and they should be in good international
      English, whether of a British, American, Canadian or any other variety. Any
      term from one country that will be completely opaque to or misinterpreted by
      all the other nations is unsuitable for a document to be used outside of that
      specific country. Parts of the document, or all of it, will eventually burp
      back up for other purposes, so using terms that are geographically too
      specific does a disservice to the client. That's my opinion, anyway.

      >> So, it's probably better to use Breetish Inklish that will at least not
      >> be confusing outside the UK. I think there are good British terms
      >> that can replace "grammar school" and "college" that will not give
      >> a completely false impression to people in other countries. I modify
      >> my American lingo sometimes for the same reason.
      >
      >Again, it's a valid view, but I'm loath to coin new expressions that might
      >be met with less comprehension than clear British equivalents. Besides,
      >continental Europeans are pretty well informed about British institutions.

      That's one way to think, but look at the mess some dictionaries put me into
      one time, because their lexicographers evidently thought the same way you do.
      I needed a passable English term for "Justizrat". I knew what it meant, but
      I couldn't think of the English term. Most of the larger German-English
      dictionaries didn't list the term at all, but I finally found it defined in a
      Langenscheidt as "Queen's councillor"! No other equivalent was given. What
      the hell am I supposed to do with that?! Who is the queen of Germany?!

      Jamie
    • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
      ... Vocational school sounds like uciliste to me. A stredni odborna skola is a demanding academic high school with some vocational training piled on top. And,
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
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        In a message dated 8/3/01 12:23:56 PM, rachelandsimon@... writes:

        >vyssi odborna skola - vocational college/ polytechnic
        >stredni odborna skola - (secondary)* vocational school

        Vocational school sounds like uciliste to me. A stredni odborna skola is a
        demanding academic high school with some vocational training piled on top.
        And, at least at a hotelovka, the assumption is that it prepares you for a
        management track. A vocational school and a trade school sound the same to
        me.

        >stredni odborne uciliste - trade school

        I hate to say it, because it's Czenglish, but I prefer apprentice school for
        this one.

        >*It strikes me that 'secondary' could be omitted, since 'school' does the
        >same job when juxtaposed with 'college'.

        But at times when you need official precision, "secondary" should be
        reattached.

        Jamie
      • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
        ... Michael, doesn t that sound like some juvenile penal institution to you? (Come to think of it, I m not sure if it sounds that way to me.) Jamie
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
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          In a message dated 8/3/01 1:58:35 PM, mgrant@... writes:

          >"Trade school" doesn't say much (unless it's actually a term used in
          >the UK that I'm unfamiliar with). How about "vocational training
          >center" (er, "centre")?

          Michael, doesn't that sound like some juvenile penal institution to you?
          (Come to think of it, I'm not sure if it sounds that way to me.)

          Jamie
        • Michael Grant
          ... Not particularly.... Michael -- BLUE DANUBE international communication services The Central and East European Language Source! ,
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
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            >How about "vocational training
            > >center" (er, "centre")?
            >
            >Michael, doesn't that sound like some juvenile penal institution to you?
            >(Come to think of it, I'm not sure if it sounds that way to me.)

            Not particularly....
            Michael

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          • Simon Vaughan
            ... The Shorter Oxford recognises trade school as a collocation, defining it as a school in which manual skills are taught . Does this definition fit the
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
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              > "Trade school" doesn't say much (unless it's actually a term used in
              > the UK that I'm unfamiliar with). How about "vocational training
              > center" (er, "centre")?

              The Shorter Oxford recognises 'trade school' as a collocation, defining it
              as 'a school in which manual skills are taught'. Does this definition fit
              the description of an 'uciliste'?

              I did flirt with 'training centre' (er, 'center') but decided against it
              because it sounds like a place where adults might just drop in to learn
              about stuff. But I'm open to persuasion.

              Simon
            • Simon Vaughan
              ... There are such things as Youth Training Centres (YTCs) in Britain and down under for young offenders. Simon
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
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                > Michael, doesn't [vocational training center'] sound like some
                > juvenile penal institution to you? (Come to think of it, I'm not
                > sure if it sounds that way to me.)

                There are such things as Youth Training Centres (YTCs) in Britain and down
                under for young offenders.

                Simon
              • Simon Vaughan
                ... misinterpreted ... I think you re wrong there: grammar school is what all the French, German and Czech kiddies get taught to say. ... I ... Maybe, but in
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
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                  > I agree with you, as long as that phrase is not liable to be
                  misinterpreted
                  > outside Britain, which "grammar school" will be.

                  I think you're wrong there: 'grammar school' is what all the French,
                  German and Czech kiddies get taught to say.

                  > We can never cater to all tastes, but this isn't a matter of taste. As
                  I
                  > say, English documents, and parts thereof, get recycled for different
                  > purposes and for different nations.

                  Maybe, but in this case my concern is to use the terminology the prime
                  target audience (bureaucrats of various European nationalities) is most
                  likely to understand, while at the same paying my language the respect it
                  deserves (if that doesn't sound too pretentious).

                  Simon
                • Lindsay
                  ... From: To: Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [Czechlist] TERMS: stredni odborna skola/
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: <JPKIRCHNER@...>
                    To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 1:22 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Czechlist] TERMS: stredni odborna skola/ stredni odborne
                    uciliste


                    > The document I was looking at distinguishes between kindergarten, which is
                    at
                    > a higher level, and creche, which comes before kindergarten. In the US,
                    we'd
                    > call a creche a nursery school. How does that sound to British ears?

                    There's usually a difference in the age of children in a creche and a
                    nursery . A creche is more of a place that just looks after a very young
                    child. A nursery has a slightly more educational atmosphere, for children
                    aged about 3 to 5. Having said that you could find a creche where you can
                    leave a 3 year old while you go shopping, for example, so the age for
                    getting into a creche is not strict. A creche is more of a place that just
                    minds your child while you are away, it isn't really for educating them.
                    Another name I can think of is 'Playschool' which is more like a nursery
                    and is for those not old enough to go into nursery.

                    Lindsay
                  • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
                    ... Oh. Me neither, now that I think about it. JK
                    Message 9 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
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                      In a message dated 8/3/01 2:55:05 PM, mgrant@... writes:

                      >>How about "vocational training
                      >> >center" (er, "centre")?
                      >>
                      >>Michael, doesn't that sound like some juvenile penal institution to you?
                      >>(Come to think of it, I'm not sure if it sounds that way to me.)
                      >
                      >Not particularly....

                      Oh. Me neither, now that I think about it.

                      JK
                    • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
                      ... In the US, that has the scary, bureaucratic-sounding name daycare . There is even adult daycare . ... That s what a US nursery school is. Jamie
                      Message 10 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
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                        In a message dated 8/3/01 4:10:38 PM, wlockyer@... writes:

                        >There's usually a difference in the age of children in a creche and a
                        >nursery . A creche is more of a place that just looks after a very young
                        >child.

                        In the US, that has the scary, bureaucratic-sounding name "daycare". There
                        is even "adult daycare".

                        >A nursery has a slightly more educational atmosphere, for children
                        >aged about 3 to 5.

                        That's what a US nursery school is.

                        Jamie
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