Re: [Czechlist] TERMS: stredni odborna skola/ stredni odborne uciliste
- In a message dated 8/3/01 11:56:44 AM, rachelandsimon@... writes:
>> We'd need some sort of circumlocution for that, because in the USThen why not use a British circumlocution?
>> our high schools combine gymnazium and stredni odborna skola,...
>It seems a shame to use an American circumlocution when British English
>has a nice neat phrase.
I agree with you, as long as that phrase is not liable to be misinterpreted
outside Britain, which "grammar school" will be. My analogy is that here in
Michigan we have a very useful term, "party store", for a certain kind of
shop, but even though it fits the meaning better than any term I've ever
heard, no one outside of Michigan will understand it, so I can't use it in a
translation. The same would go for BE "pants", which would be interpreted as
"trousers" by most native English speakers, but "underpants" would be
understood by everyone.
>> By no means would I use "grammar school", though. One of the problemsWe can never cater to all tastes, but this isn't a matter of taste. As I
>> with saying you don't have to consider the sensibilities of North
>> American readers is that you never know who is going to need to use
>> that document, or what other audiences your document will be recycled
>> to address.
>I get what you're saying, but this document is not intended for Americans.
>In the event that it reaches them, they'll just have to use what wit they
>have to figure out what's going on. I can't cater to all tastes.
say, English documents, and parts thereof, get recycled for different
purposes and for different nations (as I see happen in Detroit with German,
French and Spanish documents), and they should be in good international
English, whether of a British, American, Canadian or any other variety. Any
term from one country that will be completely opaque to or misinterpreted by
all the other nations is unsuitable for a document to be used outside of that
specific country. Parts of the document, or all of it, will eventually burp
back up for other purposes, so using terms that are geographically too
specific does a disservice to the client. That's my opinion, anyway.
>> So, it's probably better to use Breetish Inklish that will at least notThat's one way to think, but look at the mess some dictionaries put me into
>> be confusing outside the UK. I think there are good British terms
>> that can replace "grammar school" and "college" that will not give
>> a completely false impression to people in other countries. I modify
>> my American lingo sometimes for the same reason.
>Again, it's a valid view, but I'm loath to coin new expressions that might
>be met with less comprehension than clear British equivalents. Besides,
>continental Europeans are pretty well informed about British institutions.
one time, because their lexicographers evidently thought the same way you do.
I needed a passable English term for "Justizrat". I knew what it meant, but
I couldn't think of the English term. Most of the larger German-English
dictionaries didn't list the term at all, but I finally found it defined in a
Langenscheidt as "Queen's councillor"! No other equivalent was given. What
the hell am I supposed to do with that?! Who is the queen of Germany?!
- In a message dated 8/3/01 12:23:56 PM, rachelandsimon@... writes:
>vyssi odborna skola - vocational college/ polytechnicVocational school sounds like uciliste to me. A stredni odborna skola is a
>stredni odborna skola - (secondary)* vocational school
demanding academic high school with some vocational training piled on top.
And, at least at a hotelovka, the assumption is that it prepares you for a
management track. A vocational school and a trade school sound the same to
>stredni odborne uciliste - trade schoolI hate to say it, because it's Czenglish, but I prefer apprentice school for
>*It strikes me that 'secondary' could be omitted, since 'school' does theBut at times when you need official precision, "secondary" should be
>same job when juxtaposed with 'college'.
- In a message dated 8/3/01 1:58:35 PM, mgrant@... writes:
>"Trade school" doesn't say much (unless it's actually a term used inMichael, doesn't that sound like some juvenile penal institution to you?
>the UK that I'm unfamiliar with). How about "vocational training
>center" (er, "centre")?
(Come to think of it, I'm not sure if it sounds that way to me.)
>How about "vocational trainingNot particularly....
> >center" (er, "centre")?
>Michael, doesn't that sound like some juvenile penal institution to you?
>(Come to think of it, I'm not sure if it sounds that way to me.)
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> "Trade school" doesn't say much (unless it's actually a term used inThe Shorter Oxford recognises 'trade school' as a collocation, defining it
> the UK that I'm unfamiliar with). How about "vocational training
> center" (er, "centre")?
as 'a school in which manual skills are taught'. Does this definition fit
the description of an 'uciliste'?
I did flirt with 'training centre' (er, 'center') but decided against it
because it sounds like a place where adults might just drop in to learn
about stuff. But I'm open to persuasion.
> Michael, doesn't [vocational training center'] sound like someThere are such things as Youth Training Centres (YTCs) in Britain and down
> juvenile penal institution to you? (Come to think of it, I'm not
> sure if it sounds that way to me.)
under for young offenders.
> I agree with you, as long as that phrase is not liable to bemisinterpreted
> outside Britain, which "grammar school" will be.I think you're wrong there: 'grammar school' is what all the French,
German and Czech kiddies get taught to say.
> We can never cater to all tastes, but this isn't a matter of taste. AsI
> say, English documents, and parts thereof, get recycled for differentMaybe, but in this case my concern is to use the terminology the prime
> purposes and for different nations.
target audience (bureaucrats of various European nationalities) is most
likely to understand, while at the same paying my language the respect it
deserves (if that doesn't sound too pretentious).
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Czechlist] TERMS: stredni odborna skola/ stredni odborne
> The document I was looking at distinguishes between kindergarten, which is
> a higher level, and creche, which comes before kindergarten. In the US,
> call a creche a nursery school. How does that sound to British ears?
There's usually a difference in the age of children in a creche and a
nursery . A creche is more of a place that just looks after a very young
child. A nursery has a slightly more educational atmosphere, for children
aged about 3 to 5. Having said that you could find a creche where you can
leave a 3 year old while you go shopping, for example, so the age for
getting into a creche is not strict. A creche is more of a place that just
minds your child while you are away, it isn't really for educating them.
Another name I can think of is 'Playschool' which is more like a nursery
and is for those not old enough to go into nursery.
- In a message dated 8/3/01 2:55:05 PM, mgrant@... writes:
>>How about "vocational trainingOh. Me neither, now that I think about it.
>> >center" (er, "centre")?
>>Michael, doesn't that sound like some juvenile penal institution to you?
>>(Come to think of it, I'm not sure if it sounds that way to me.)
- In a message dated 8/3/01 4:10:38 PM, wlockyer@... writes:
>There's usually a difference in the age of children in a creche and aIn the US, that has the scary, bureaucratic-sounding name "daycare". There
>nursery . A creche is more of a place that just looks after a very young
is even "adult daycare".
>A nursery has a slightly more educational atmosphere, for childrenThat's what a US nursery school is.
>aged about 3 to 5.