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Re: [Czechlist] TERMS: stredni odborna skola/ stredni odborne uciliste

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  • Michael Grant
    ... I suppose you could make an education center or something similarly contrived of the uciliste.... Michael *** We re going to turn this team around 360
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 2, 2001
      >I see from the archives that in May last year Michael G. recommended
      >'vocational school' for 'odborna skola' and 'vocational college' for
      >'odborne uciliste'. Good thinking, but the trouble is, I have both
      >'STREDNI odborna skola' and 'VYSSI odborna skola' and I was kinda hoping
      >to use 'school' and 'college' to distinguish them. (There doesn't seem to
      >be any such thing as a 'vyssi odborne uciliste'.) Any ideas?

      I suppose you could make an "education center" or something similarly
      contrived of the uciliste....

      Michael

      ***
      "We're going to turn this team around 360 degrees."
      -- Jason Kidd, upon joining the Dallas Mavericks
    • PSS Praha - Coilin O' Connor
      STREDNI odborna skola and VYSSI odborna skola In Ireland, we have Secondary Vocational Schools and Higher Vocational Colleges, and I would imagine that
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 2, 2001
        'STREDNI odborna skola' and 'VYSSI odborna skola'

        In Ireland, we have Secondary Vocational Schools and Higher Vocational
        Colleges, and I would imagine that they are pretty analogous to the
        institutions given above. IMO, I think you might be getting a bit hung up
        on the word "skola", which is a pretty general term and can probably be
        translated according to what sounds better in an English context.

        HTH
        Coilin
      • Rachel Thompson
        Hi Coilin, ... be ... hoping to use school and college to distinguish them.
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 2, 2001
          Hi Coilin,

          > IMO, I think you might be getting a bit hung up
          > on the word "skola", which is a pretty general term and can probably
          be
          > translated according to what sounds better in an English context.

          No he wasn't. In fact, he had been hoping to use just what -- look:

          > ...'STREDNI odborna skola' and 'VYSSI odborna skola' and I was kinda
          hoping
          to use 'school' and 'college' to distinguish them.<

          His problem is that he has stredni odborne uciliste as well as skola AND
          vyssi odborna skola. Any suggestions?

          Rachel
        • Rachel Thompson
          ... Of course that should have read just that ! I m an idiot. Rachel
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 2, 2001
            > In fact, he had been hoping to use just what -- look:

            Of course that should have read "just that"!

            I'm an idiot.

            Rachel
          • Jirka Bolech
            ... I should think the former has more academic curricula (more convenient for those who want to go on by taking a higher education course as opposed to
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 2, 2001
              Simon Vaughan asked about:

              > stredni odborna skola/ stredni odborne uciliste


              I should think the former has more academic curricula (more convenient for
              those who want to go on by taking a higher education course as opposed to
              looking for a job right after finishing this one) while the students at the
              latter type of school get more hands-on training (they have a chance to
              achieve the same level of certificate as at the former type in most cases
              these days). Don't ask me how to transfer these concepts into English best,
              though. I'll know better, I bet.

              Jirka Bolech
            • Jirka Bolech
              ... I ll know better should have been You ll know better . I m not going to call myself an idiot and I know Rachel Thompson ain t one either. Jirka Bolech
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 2, 2001
                > Don't ask me how to transfer these concepts into English best,
                > though. I'll know better, I bet.

                "I'll know better" should have been "You'll know better". I'm not going to
                call myself an idiot and I know Rachel Thompson ain't one either.

                Jirka Bolech
              • Simon Vaughan
                ... Useful stuff, Jirka. Thanks. On the basis of the advice you, Michael and Coilin have given me, I think I ll pencil in the following translations: vyssi
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 2, 2001
                  > I should think the former has more academic curricula (more convenient
                  > for those who want to go on by taking a higher education course as
                  > opposed to looking for a job right after finishing this one) while the
                  > students at the latter type of school get more hands-on training (they
                  > have a chance to achieve the same level of certificate as at the former
                  > type in most cases these days).

                  Useful stuff, Jirka. Thanks.

                  On the basis of the advice you, Michael and Coilin have given me, I think
                  I'll pencil in the following translations:

                  vyssi odborna skola - Higher Vocational School
                  stredni odborna skola - Secondary Vocational School
                  stredni odborne uciliste - Secondary Vocational College

                  Paradoxically, although it can refer to an institution higher up in the
                  education system than a school, 'college' can also sound less academic
                  than 'school'. To my British ears, anyway.

                  Simon
                • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
                  ... To North American ears it would convey post-secondary education. A college is a university in North America, so that translation doesn t work. BUT! I ve
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 2, 2001
                    In a message dated 8/2/01 4:16:14 PM, rachelandsimon@... writes:

                    >vyssi odborna skola - Higher Vocational School
                    >stredni odborna skola - Secondary Vocational School
                    >stredni odborne uciliste - Secondary Vocational College

                    >Paradoxically, although it can refer to an institution higher up in the
                    >education system than a school, 'college' can also sound less academic
                    >than 'school'. To my British ears, anyway.

                    To North American ears it would convey post-secondary education. A college
                    is a university in North America, so that translation doesn't work.

                    BUT! I've pulled out a set of charts from the Czech ministry of education
                    that lists the official translations of most of these terms. (I got it from
                    Michael for a job I did for him while he was still in Prague.) Here's what
                    the "official" charts say:

                    >stredni odborna skola - Secondary Technical School
                    >stredni odborne uciliste - Secondary Vocational School

                    Unfortunately, it doesn't provide a translation of "vyssi odborna skola", and
                    it gives that awful Czenglish term "basic school" for "zakladni skola". I
                    also don't like "creche" for nursery school, but that's my own geographic
                    prejudice. But at least the charts don't call "gymnazium" a "secondary
                    grammar school", as most Czechs seem to.

                    Jamie
                  • Jiri Pelka
                    Hi Simon, the only problem I have with your suggestion is as follows ... some (I am not sure whether all or just some of them) Czech private Vyssi odborna
                    Message 9 of 28 , Aug 2, 2001
                      Hi Simon,

                      the only problem I have with your suggestion is as follows
                      >
                      > vyssi odborna skola - Higher Vocational School

                      some (I am not sure whether all or just some of them) Czech private
                      Vyssi odborna skola's (VOS) give a degree "bakalar" (if they are
                      accredited by some accreditation authority, e.g. VOS in Kunovice,
                      okr. Uherske Hradiste in South-eastern Moravia has been accredited
                      by, of all bodies, the Irich Educational Board - I can only guess
                      why...).

                      The biggest (terminological) problem I have with this is that
                      this "bakalar" is given to guys after two years of VOS, i.e. it's
                      equivalent to the US Associate degree earned also after two years of
                      usually Community College.

                      The problem I am talking about is that they give guys and girls a
                      diploma with a second seal from Irish accrediting body and with
                      EWnglish translation of "bakalar" as "bachelor", which is non-sense
                      that can confuse some folks who are used to Bachelor's degree earned
                      after four years of undegrad study, with a major and minor.

                      To confuse things a bit more, at this private VOS, they call the two
                      years program officially (probably to get subsidy from our
                      government) Vyssi odborna skola, but also semi-officially Evropsky
                      polytechnicky institute, with English logo proudly displayed at their
                      diplomas "European Polytechnical Institute" (EPI).

                      They tell their students that - unfortunately - Czech government does
                      not recognize this diploma, but it MAY be recognized in the EU (based
                      on that obscure Irish accrediting body...). (Are they misusing their
                      students dream of a job in the EU, just guessing... - remember, this
                      is private VOS, with paid tuition)

                      Jiri

                      PS
                      > stredni odborna skola - Secondary Vocational School
                      > stredni odborne uciliste - Secondary Vocational College
                      >
                      > Paradoxically, although it can refer to an institution higher up in
                      the
                      > education system than a school, 'college' can also sound less
                      academic
                      > than 'school'. To my British ears, anyway.

                      I bet my last Birelle (non-alcohol brew) that Jamie and the remaining
                      American ears won't agree - College in the US may be one of the most
                      prestige and most expensive schools providing university education,
                      called "college" perhaps out of tradition.

                      So they like to specify - 2-years college, 4-years college,
                      vocational college (nursing, car mechanics, etc.), community college,
                      junior college (such as Morton junior College - 2-years community
                      college in Cicero, IL).

                      I guess more info may come from the States.
                    • Jiri Pelka
                      Hi there, ... skola (VOS), as VOS represents two years after HSLE (maturita), with some VOS giving (un)officiall first 2-years degree - bakalar (US
                      Message 10 of 28 , Aug 2, 2001
                        Hi there,
                        >
                        > Unfortunately, it doesn't provide a translation of "vyssi odborna
                        skola" (VOS),

                        as VOS represents two years after HSLE (maturita), with some VOS
                        giving (un)officiall first 2-years degree - "bakalar" (US "Associate
                        of Arts/Sciences" earned after two years of college), I would suggest
                        that "college" (with an adjective of "junior", "vocational", 2-years,
                        etc.) would serve the purpose best.

                        Jiri
                      • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
                        ... The trouble is that an Associate s degree in the US is not quite as much education as a Czech maturita. I went to excellent public schools in the US, and
                        Message 11 of 28 , Aug 2, 2001
                          In a message dated 8/2/01 7:26:13 PM, jpelka@... writes:

                          >as VOS represents two years after HSLE (maturita), with some VOS
                          >giving (un)officiall first 2-years degree - "bakalar" (US "Associate
                          >of Arts/Sciences" earned after two years of college),

                          The trouble is that an Associate's degree in the US is not quite as much
                          education as a Czech maturita. I went to excellent public schools in the US,
                          and the two years of education at the best community college in my area, as I
                          witnessed, were basically a repeat of what for me was high school. Since I
                          consider Czechs with a maturitni diplom to be about as well educated as an
                          American with a bachelor's degree, it's kind of hard to claim that this Czech
                          bakalar would be equivalent to an Associate's degree. Czech students know
                          more going into the program than Americans do.

                          >I would suggest
                          >that "college" (with an adjective of "junior", "vocational", 2-years,
                          >etc.) would serve the purpose best.

                          I agree.

                          Jamie
                        • Simon Vaughan
                          ... I don t have to consider the needs of American readers in this piece, since it concerns the Czech Republic s preparations for joining the EU, and the EU
                          Message 12 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
                            > To North American ears ['college'] would convey post-
                            > secondary education. A college is a university in North
                            > America, so that translation doesn't work.

                            I don't have to consider the needs of American readers in this piece,
                            since it concerns the Czech Republic's preparations for joining the
                            EU, and the EU uses British English, or rather EuroBritEng.

                            > >stredni odborna skola - Secondary Technical School
                            > >stredni odborne uciliste - Secondary Vocational School

                            The trouble with 'technical' is that, as Melvyn has pointed out in the
                            past, 'odborne skoly' can teach more than just applied science.

                            In the light of what Jirka said, for 'vyssi odborna skola' I am now
                            considering using the term 'polytechnic', denoting 'an institution of
                            higher education offering courses in many (esp. vocational) subjects at
                            degree level or below' (COD); its use has been phased out in Britain, but
                            it fits the Czech so nicely I am very tempted to use it.

                            > I also don't like "creche" for nursery school, but that's my own
                            > geographic prejudice.

                            What about 'kindergarten'?

                            > But at least the charts don't call "gymnazium" a "secondary
                            > grammar school", as most Czechs seem to.

                            I have these too. I'm calling them 'grammar schools'. What would the
                            American translation be?

                            Simon
                          • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
                            ... I didn t like this either, because according to the terminology in the chart, a hotelovka would also be a secondary technical school . Even though the
                            Message 13 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
                              In a message dated 8/3/01 4:27:31 AM, rachelandsimon@... writes:

                              >The trouble with 'technical' is that, as Melvyn has pointed out in the
                              >past, 'odborne skoly' can teach more than just applied science.

                              I didn't like this either, because according to the terminology in the chart,
                              a hotelovka would also be a "secondary technical school". Even though the
                              kids have courses like "Technika sluzby", I still wouldn't consider the
                              school technical.

                              >> I also don't like "creche" for nursery school, but that's my own
                              >> geographic prejudice.
                              >
                              >What about 'kindergarten'?

                              The document I was looking at distinguishes between kindergarten, which is at
                              a higher level, and creche, which comes before kindergarten. In the US, we'd
                              call a creche a nursery school. How does that sound to British ears?

                              >> But at least the charts don't call "gymnazium" a "secondary
                              >> grammar school", as most Czechs seem to.
                              >
                              >I have these too. I'm calling them 'grammar schools'. What would the
                              >American translation be?

                              The American translation of "grammar school" would be "zakladni skola". We
                              might say "academic high school", or "academic secondary school", or "college
                              preparatory high school". We'd need some sort of circumlocution for that,
                              because in the US our high schools combine gymnazium and stredni odborna
                              skola, whereas there are vocational schools equivalent to stredni odborne
                              uciliste for the "dumb kids". The various US dictionaries give a second
                              definition of "gymnasium", which is some kind of European academic high
                              school, so I suppose you could even get away gymnasium, even though it mainly
                              means telocvicna.

                              By no means would I use "grammar school", though. One of the problems with
                              saying you don't have to consider the sensibilities of North American readers
                              is that you never know who is going to need to use that document, or what
                              other audiences your document will be recycled to address. So, it's probably
                              better to use Breetish Inklish that will at least not be confusing outside
                              the UK. I think there are good British terms that can replace "grammar
                              school" and "college" that will not give a completely false impression to
                              people in other countries. I modify my American lingo sometimes for the same
                              reason.

                              Jamie
                            • Michael Grant
                              ... The closest equivalent is probably college preparatory school or just preparatory school ( prep school ), but high school will do in a pinch. Michael
                              Message 14 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
                                > > But at least the charts don't call "gymnazium" a "secondary
                                > > grammar school", as most Czechs seem to.
                                >
                                >I have these too. I'm calling them 'grammar schools'. What would the
                                >American translation be?

                                The closest equivalent is probably "college preparatory school" or
                                just "preparatory school" ("prep school"), but "high school" will do
                                in a pinch.

                                Michael

                                --
                                "Rarely is the question asked are: Is our children learning?"
                                - George W. Bush, Florence, South Carolina, January 11, 2000
                              • Simon Vaughan
                                ... In Britain, nursery school and kindergarten are synomous; the former is the more common term by far. A creche , to my mind, is a place where children
                                Message 15 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
                                  > The document I was looking at distinguishes between kindergarten,
                                  > which is at a higher level, and creche, which comes before
                                  > kindergarten. In the US, we'd call a creche a nursery school. How
                                  > does that sound to British ears?

                                  In Britain, 'nursery school' and 'kindergarten' are synomous; the former
                                  is the more common term by far. A 'creche', to my mind, is a place where
                                  children too young to go to nursery school can be supervised (but not
                                  educated) while their mothers (yes, or fathers) are at work.

                                  Incidentally, I went to kindergarten in the States - Schools in the Woods,
                                  in Atlanta. It was there that I learnt to put my coat on by swinging it
                                  over my head, a most uncommon practice in Britain.

                                  > We'd need some sort of circumlocution for that, because in the US
                                  > our high schools combine gymnazium and stredni odborna skola,...

                                  It seems a shame to use an American circumlocution when British English
                                  has a nice neat phrase.

                                  > ...so I suppose you could even get away gymnasium, even though
                                  > it mainly means telocvicna.

                                  That had occurred to me, but it's a bit risky: these bureaucrats speak
                                  English well enough to know that in English 'gymnasium' means an indoor
                                  sports hall.

                                  > By no means would I use "grammar school", though. One of the problems
                                  > with saying you don't have to consider the sensibilities of North
                                  > American readers is that you never know who is going to need to use
                                  > that document, or what other audiences your document will be recycled
                                  > to address.

                                  I get what you're saying, but this document is not intended for Americans.
                                  In the event that it reaches them, they'll just have to use what wit they
                                  have to figure out what's going on. I can't cater to all tastes.

                                  > So, it's probably better to use Breetish Inklish that will at least not
                                  > be confusing outside the UK. I think there are good British terms
                                  > that can replace "grammar school" and "college" that will not give
                                  > a completely false impression to people in other countries. I modify
                                  > my American lingo sometimes for the same reason.

                                  Again, it's a valid view, but I'm loath to coin new expressions that might
                                  be met with less comprehension than clear British equivalents. Besides,
                                  continental Europeans are pretty well informed about British institutions.

                                  Simon
                                • Simon Vaughan
                                  Latest thinking: vyssi odborna skola - vocational college/ polytechnic stredni odborna skola - (secondary)* vocational school stredni odborne uciliste - trade
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
                                    Latest thinking:

                                    vyssi odborna skola - vocational college/ polytechnic
                                    stredni odborna skola - (secondary)* vocational school
                                    stredni odborne uciliste - trade school

                                    *It strikes me that 'secondary' could be omitted, since 'school' does the
                                    same job when juxtaposed with 'college'.

                                    Whaddaya reckon?

                                    Simon
                                  • Michael Grant
                                    ... Trade school doesn t say much (unless it s actually a term used in the UK that I m unfamiliar with). How about vocational training center (er,
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
                                      >Latest thinking:
                                      >
                                      >vyssi odborna skola - vocational college/ polytechnic
                                      >stredni odborna skola - (secondary)* vocational school
                                      >stredni odborne uciliste - trade school
                                      >
                                      >*It strikes me that 'secondary' could be omitted, since 'school' does the
                                      >same job when juxtaposed with 'college'.
                                      >
                                      >Whaddaya reckon?


                                      "Trade school" doesn't say much (unless it's actually a term used in
                                      the UK that I'm unfamiliar with). How about "vocational training
                                      center" (er, "centre")?

                                      Michael

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                                    • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
                                      ... Then why not use a British circumlocution? I agree with you, as long as that phrase is not liable to be misinterpreted outside Britain, which grammar
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
                                        In a message dated 8/3/01 11:56:44 AM, rachelandsimon@... writes:

                                        >> We'd need some sort of circumlocution for that, because in the US
                                        >> our high schools combine gymnazium and stredni odborna skola,...

                                        >It seems a shame to use an American circumlocution when British English
                                        >has a nice neat phrase.

                                        Then why not use a British circumlocution?

                                        I agree with you, as long as that phrase is not liable to be misinterpreted
                                        outside Britain, which "grammar school" will be. My analogy is that here in
                                        Michigan we have a very useful term, "party store", for a certain kind of
                                        shop, but even though it fits the meaning better than any term I've ever
                                        heard, no one outside of Michigan will understand it, so I can't use it in a
                                        translation. The same would go for BE "pants", which would be interpreted as
                                        "trousers" by most native English speakers, but "underpants" would be
                                        understood by everyone.

                                        >> By no means would I use "grammar school", though. One of the problems
                                        >> with saying you don't have to consider the sensibilities of North
                                        >> American readers is that you never know who is going to need to use
                                        >> that document, or what other audiences your document will be recycled
                                        >> to address.

                                        >I get what you're saying, but this document is not intended for Americans.
                                        >In the event that it reaches them, they'll just have to use what wit they
                                        >have to figure out what's going on. I can't cater to all tastes.

                                        We can never cater to all tastes, but this isn't a matter of taste. As I
                                        say, English documents, and parts thereof, get recycled for different
                                        purposes and for different nations (as I see happen in Detroit with German,
                                        French and Spanish documents), and they should be in good international
                                        English, whether of a British, American, Canadian or any other variety. Any
                                        term from one country that will be completely opaque to or misinterpreted by
                                        all the other nations is unsuitable for a document to be used outside of that
                                        specific country. Parts of the document, or all of it, will eventually burp
                                        back up for other purposes, so using terms that are geographically too
                                        specific does a disservice to the client. That's my opinion, anyway.

                                        >> So, it's probably better to use Breetish Inklish that will at least not
                                        >> be confusing outside the UK. I think there are good British terms
                                        >> that can replace "grammar school" and "college" that will not give
                                        >> a completely false impression to people in other countries. I modify
                                        >> my American lingo sometimes for the same reason.
                                        >
                                        >Again, it's a valid view, but I'm loath to coin new expressions that might
                                        >be met with less comprehension than clear British equivalents. Besides,
                                        >continental Europeans are pretty well informed about British institutions.

                                        That's one way to think, but look at the mess some dictionaries put me into
                                        one time, because their lexicographers evidently thought the same way you do.
                                        I needed a passable English term for "Justizrat". I knew what it meant, but
                                        I couldn't think of the English term. Most of the larger German-English
                                        dictionaries didn't list the term at all, but I finally found it defined in a
                                        Langenscheidt as "Queen's councillor"! No other equivalent was given. What
                                        the hell am I supposed to do with that?! Who is the queen of Germany?!

                                        Jamie
                                      • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
                                        ... Vocational school sounds like uciliste to me. A stredni odborna skola is a demanding academic high school with some vocational training piled on top. And,
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
                                          In a message dated 8/3/01 12:23:56 PM, rachelandsimon@... writes:

                                          >vyssi odborna skola - vocational college/ polytechnic
                                          >stredni odborna skola - (secondary)* vocational school

                                          Vocational school sounds like uciliste to me. A stredni odborna skola is a
                                          demanding academic high school with some vocational training piled on top.
                                          And, at least at a hotelovka, the assumption is that it prepares you for a
                                          management track. A vocational school and a trade school sound the same to
                                          me.

                                          >stredni odborne uciliste - trade school

                                          I hate to say it, because it's Czenglish, but I prefer apprentice school for
                                          this one.

                                          >*It strikes me that 'secondary' could be omitted, since 'school' does the
                                          >same job when juxtaposed with 'college'.

                                          But at times when you need official precision, "secondary" should be
                                          reattached.

                                          Jamie
                                        • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
                                          ... Michael, doesn t that sound like some juvenile penal institution to you? (Come to think of it, I m not sure if it sounds that way to me.) Jamie
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
                                            In a message dated 8/3/01 1:58:35 PM, mgrant@... writes:

                                            >"Trade school" doesn't say much (unless it's actually a term used in
                                            >the UK that I'm unfamiliar with). How about "vocational training
                                            >center" (er, "centre")?

                                            Michael, doesn't that sound like some juvenile penal institution to you?
                                            (Come to think of it, I'm not sure if it sounds that way to me.)

                                            Jamie
                                          • Michael Grant
                                            ... Not particularly.... Michael -- BLUE DANUBE international communication services The Central and East European Language Source! ,
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
                                              >How about "vocational training
                                              > >center" (er, "centre")?
                                              >
                                              >Michael, doesn't that sound like some juvenile penal institution to you?
                                              >(Come to think of it, I'm not sure if it sounds that way to me.)

                                              Not particularly....
                                              Michael

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                                            • Simon Vaughan
                                              ... The Shorter Oxford recognises trade school as a collocation, defining it as a school in which manual skills are taught . Does this definition fit the
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
                                                > "Trade school" doesn't say much (unless it's actually a term used in
                                                > the UK that I'm unfamiliar with). How about "vocational training
                                                > center" (er, "centre")?

                                                The Shorter Oxford recognises 'trade school' as a collocation, defining it
                                                as 'a school in which manual skills are taught'. Does this definition fit
                                                the description of an 'uciliste'?

                                                I did flirt with 'training centre' (er, 'center') but decided against it
                                                because it sounds like a place where adults might just drop in to learn
                                                about stuff. But I'm open to persuasion.

                                                Simon
                                              • Simon Vaughan
                                                ... There are such things as Youth Training Centres (YTCs) in Britain and down under for young offenders. Simon
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
                                                  > Michael, doesn't [vocational training center'] sound like some
                                                  > juvenile penal institution to you? (Come to think of it, I'm not
                                                  > sure if it sounds that way to me.)

                                                  There are such things as Youth Training Centres (YTCs) in Britain and down
                                                  under for young offenders.

                                                  Simon
                                                • Simon Vaughan
                                                  ... misinterpreted ... I think you re wrong there: grammar school is what all the French, German and Czech kiddies get taught to say. ... I ... Maybe, but in
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
                                                    > I agree with you, as long as that phrase is not liable to be
                                                    misinterpreted
                                                    > outside Britain, which "grammar school" will be.

                                                    I think you're wrong there: 'grammar school' is what all the French,
                                                    German and Czech kiddies get taught to say.

                                                    > We can never cater to all tastes, but this isn't a matter of taste. As
                                                    I
                                                    > say, English documents, and parts thereof, get recycled for different
                                                    > purposes and for different nations.

                                                    Maybe, but in this case my concern is to use the terminology the prime
                                                    target audience (bureaucrats of various European nationalities) is most
                                                    likely to understand, while at the same paying my language the respect it
                                                    deserves (if that doesn't sound too pretentious).

                                                    Simon
                                                  • Lindsay
                                                    ... From: To: Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [Czechlist] TERMS: stredni odborna skola/
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: <JPKIRCHNER@...>
                                                      To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 1:22 PM
                                                      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] TERMS: stredni odborna skola/ stredni odborne
                                                      uciliste


                                                      > The document I was looking at distinguishes between kindergarten, which is
                                                      at
                                                      > a higher level, and creche, which comes before kindergarten. In the US,
                                                      we'd
                                                      > call a creche a nursery school. How does that sound to British ears?

                                                      There's usually a difference in the age of children in a creche and a
                                                      nursery . A creche is more of a place that just looks after a very young
                                                      child. A nursery has a slightly more educational atmosphere, for children
                                                      aged about 3 to 5. Having said that you could find a creche where you can
                                                      leave a 3 year old while you go shopping, for example, so the age for
                                                      getting into a creche is not strict. A creche is more of a place that just
                                                      minds your child while you are away, it isn't really for educating them.
                                                      Another name I can think of is 'Playschool' which is more like a nursery
                                                      and is for those not old enough to go into nursery.

                                                      Lindsay
                                                    • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
                                                      ... Oh. Me neither, now that I think about it. JK
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
                                                        In a message dated 8/3/01 2:55:05 PM, mgrant@... writes:

                                                        >>How about "vocational training
                                                        >> >center" (er, "centre")?
                                                        >>
                                                        >>Michael, doesn't that sound like some juvenile penal institution to you?
                                                        >>(Come to think of it, I'm not sure if it sounds that way to me.)
                                                        >
                                                        >Not particularly....

                                                        Oh. Me neither, now that I think about it.

                                                        JK
                                                      • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
                                                        ... In the US, that has the scary, bureaucratic-sounding name daycare . There is even adult daycare . ... That s what a US nursery school is. Jamie
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
                                                          In a message dated 8/3/01 4:10:38 PM, wlockyer@... writes:

                                                          >There's usually a difference in the age of children in a creche and a
                                                          >nursery . A creche is more of a place that just looks after a very young
                                                          >child.

                                                          In the US, that has the scary, bureaucratic-sounding name "daycare". There
                                                          is even "adult daycare".

                                                          >A nursery has a slightly more educational atmosphere, for children
                                                          >aged about 3 to 5.

                                                          That's what a US nursery school is.

                                                          Jamie
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