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Re: Aargh, chemistry!

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  • Simon Vollam
    Dear list, I d like to publicly thank Rachel for saving my graphs in time for a publication deadline. Happy cucumber season to you all (and especially to R.),
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 30, 2001
      Dear list,

      I'd like to publicly thank Rachel for saving my graphs in time for a
      publication deadline.

      Happy cucumber season to you all (and especially to R.),

      Simon
    • Dusan Papousek
      Dear Simon, do not use yield in this context, yield is used in chemistry in the following context : yield of a chemical reaction = vytezek chemicke
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 1, 2001
        Dear Simon,
        do not use "yield" in this context, "yield" is used in chemistry in the
        following context : "yield of a chemical reaction = vytezek chemicke reakce"
        (see also the comment from Karel). In your context, it's better to use
        "amount", although "quantity" is basically correct but see further.
        According to the SNTL Czech-English Chemical Dictionary: mnozstvi = amount,
        quantity, e.g. adsorbed amount, total amount, overall amount, indicator
        amount, trace amount (stopove mnozstvi). "Quantity" is used for "velicina"
        both in chemistry and physics or in technological disciplines : A quantity
        is a technical term for things that can be measured, such as length, mass
        and time. For example, when translating "Fyzikalni veliciny, ktere
        charakterisuji stav systemu...", you should say "Physical quantities that
        characterize the state of a system..." and the term "quantity" is the only
        one you can use here.
        I would not use "fraction" for "mnozstvi" because "fraction" means "podil",
        e.g. in chemistry is frequently used in the context "destilacni podil" in
        the sense "part of something". However, it's tempting to use the term
        "fraction" in your context because of this unhappy "unit" mg/g.
        Nevertheless, I would translate your sentence as "The amount of components
        is given in mass units in mg/g of the tested sample", if it means that the
        amount of components was given in mg (miligrams) and related to the amount
        of the tested sample in g (grams).


        D.P.
        Previous message:

        Simon the Chemist wrote:

        I would welcome your informed opinions on how to translate "mnozstvi"
        in the following context:

        "Mnozstvi komponent jsou uvadena v hmotnostni jednotkach v mg/g
        zkouseneho vzorku."

        It sounds like "yields" to me. Can anyone confirm or correct this?
      • Tony Long
        Perfect. Couldn t have said it better meself, so I didn t. Tony Whose first-ever real job was mixing krtek-perfect solutions for unappreciative M.Sc. students.
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 1, 2001
          Perfect. Couldn't have said it better meself, so I didn't.

          Tony
          Whose first-ever real job was mixing krtek-perfect solutions for unappreciative M.Sc. students.
          Aargh, chemistry!


          Dear Simon,
          do not use "yield" in this context, "yield" is used in chemistry in the
          following context : "yield of a chemical reaction = vytezek chemicke reakce"
          (see also the comment from Karel). In your context, it's better to use
          "amount", although "quantity" is basically correct but see further.
          According to the SNTL Czech-English Chemical Dictionary: mnozstvi = amount,
          quantity, e.g. adsorbed amount, total amount, overall amount, indicator
          amount, trace amount (stopove mnozstvi). "Quantity" is used for "velicina"
          both in chemistry and physics or in technological disciplines : A quantity
          is a technical term for things that can be measured, such as length, mass
          and time. For example, when translating "Fyzikalni veliciny, ktere
          charakterisuji stav systemu...", you should say "Physical quantities that
          characterize the state of a system..." and the term "quantity" is the only
          one you can use here.
          I would not use "fraction" for "mnozstvi" because "fraction" means "podil",
          e.g. in chemistry is frequently used in the context "destilacni podil" in
          the sense "part of something". However, it's tempting to use the term
          "fraction" in your context because of this unhappy "unit" mg/g.
          Nevertheless, I would translate your sentence as "The amount of components
          is given in mass units in mg/g of the tested sample", if it means that the
          amount of components was given in mg (miligrams) and related to the amount
          of the tested sample in g (grams).


          D.P.
          Previous message:

          Simon the Chemist wrote:

          I would welcome your informed opinions on how to translate "mnozstvi"
          in the following context:

          "Mnozstvi komponent jsou uvadena v hmotnostni jednotkach v mg/g
          zkouseneho vzorku."

          It sounds like "yields" to me. Can anyone confirm or correct this?





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        • padamek@mbox.dkm.cz
          Docela by mne zajimalo, jestli se v anglictine ujalo vedecky spravnejsi mass , nebo jestli chemici dodnes pouzivaji beznejsi weight . Byl jsem zvykly
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 1, 2001
            Docela by mne zajimalo, jestli se v anglictine ujalo vedecky
            spravnejsi "mass", nebo jestli chemici dodnes pouzivaji
            beznejsi "weight". Byl jsem zvykly prekladat "hmotnost" jako "weight"
            (napriklad "wt.%") ale trebas je to uz dnes zastarale. (Rachel to asi
            bude vedet.)
            S pozdravem Petr
            --- In Czechlist@y..., "Dusan Papousek" <Papousek@m...> wrote:
            > > Nevertheless, I would translate your sentence as "The amount of
            components
            > is given in mass units in mg/g of the tested sample",
          • Simon Vollam
            Morning List, Thanks for all your helpful comments and suggestions. It turns out - as I expected - that the author was referring to the mass of a particular
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 2, 2001
              Morning List,

              Thanks for all your helpful comments and suggestions.

              It turns out - as I expected - that the author was referring to the
              mass of a particular gas produced by burning a known amount of
              material (for example, mg of HCN per g of polyurethane foam). This is
              commonly referred to in combustion science as the yield. I agree that
              it is not a yield in the normal chemistry context, i.e. the amount of
              a substance actually produced in a chemical reaction relative to the
              amount predicted theoretically from the reaction stoichiometry. But
              it's a similar concept.

              The author tells me that he wished to stress the fact that it was a
              mass of gas, and not the volume concentration in air. However, I
              wonder whether "vytezek" has a narrower scientific meaning in Czech
              than "yield" does in English. BTW I agree that "amount" is more
              appropriate than "quantity" in this context.

              To answer the mass-vs-weight query, I was always taught that,
              strictly speaking, mass is measured in grammes whereas weight (being
              a force) is measured in Newtons. A man on the moon, for example,
              weighs much less than on earth, but his mass is the same regardless
              of location (relativistic considerations aside).

              On the other hand, strictly speaking one should say "ethanol", not
              "ethyl alcohol", but who cares? Not many chemists do their
              experiments extraterrestrially, and one often sees "weight" used in
              scientific papers as a synonym for mass, especially outside physics.

              Enough, enough. I'm an economist now.

              Thanks again,

              Simon
            • Rachel Thompson
              ... Hi Petr, In normal speech, weight is still the commoner way of expressing what is more correctly termed mass. But I ve never used it as an equivalent for
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 2, 2001
                > Docela by mne zajimalo, jestli se v anglictine ujalo vedecky
                > spravnejsi "mass", nebo jestli chemici dodnes pouzivaji
                > beznejsi "weight". Byl jsem zvykly prekladat "hmotnost" jako "weight"
                > (napriklad "wt.%") ale trebas je to uz dnes zastarale. (Rachel to asi
                > bude vedet.)

                Hi Petr,

                In normal speech, weight is still the commoner way of expressing what is
                more correctly termed mass. But I've never used it as an equivalent for
                mass in a chemical text. Until now, I'd have said that that usage was
                out of date, but checking for "weight percent" on Google does bring up
                14,000 hits, so I guess it is still used (perhaps especially in
                America). We always used percentage mass in Britain.

                Rachel
              • Simon Vollam
                ... We always used percentage mass in Britain. I m not sure we always did. Things are much more standardised now, though. Simon
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 2, 2001
                  --- In Czechlist@y..., "Rachel Thompson" <rachel.thompson@s...> wrote:
                  We always used percentage mass in Britain.



                  I'm not sure we always did. Things are much more standardised now,
                  though.

                  Simon
                • Rachel Thompson
                  ... Then I suppose it must be a very recent standardisation -- you re not that much older than me, are you? By the time we started doing percentage mass
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 2, 2001
                    > I'm not sure we always did. Things are much more standardised now,
                    > though.

                    Then I suppose it must be a very recent standardisation -- you're not
                    that much older than me, are you? By the time we started doing
                    percentage mass calculations at A-level, everything was "mass" in all
                    the course literature, and I'd never heard of this "weight percent"
                    until I looked it up this morning.

                    But to Petr and others who are wondering what to use, I'd suggest that
                    mass is probably the safer bet, since it is more strictly correct.
                    Would you go along with that?

                    Rachel
                  • Simon Vollam
                    ... not ... No, only a couple of months older, I would estimate. Seriously, though, I think the SI/IUPAC standardisation efforts have only recently begun to
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 2, 2001
                      --- In Czechlist@y..., "Rachel Thompson" <rachel.thompson@s...> wrote:
                      > > I'm not sure we always did. Things are much more standardised now,
                      > > though.
                      >
                      > Then I suppose it must be a very recent standardisation -- you're
                      not
                      > that much older than me, are you?

                      No, only a couple of months older, I would estimate. Seriously,
                      though, I think the SI/IUPAC standardisation efforts have only
                      recently begun to bite. When I was studying chemistry in the late
                      1980s, many of the older professors got decided uppity when we
                      corrected their "antiquated" terminology.

                      Just out of interest,were you taught to use "molecular mass" or
                      "molecular weight"?

                      > But to Petr and others who are wondering what to use, I'd suggest
                      that
                      > mass is probably the safer bet, since it is more strictly correct.
                      > Would you go along with that?

                      Yes indeed, as a rule of thumb. But don't be too surprised if some
                      grey-haired chemist tries to correct you!

                      Simon
                    • Rachel Thompson
                      ... Mass. We had some confusion between molar mass and molecular mass , but it was always mass, not weight. Rachel
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 2, 2001
                        > Just out of interest,were you taught to use "molecular mass" or
                        > "molecular weight"?

                        Mass. We had some confusion between "molar mass" and "molecular mass",
                        but it was always mass, not weight.

                        Rachel
                      • Simon Vollam
                        ... mass , ... Interesting. Molecular mass sounds quite alien to me, although I ve nothing against it. It seems those few short months between us have seen
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jul 2, 2001
                          --- In Czechlist@y..., "Rachel Thompson" <rachel.thompson@s...> wrote:
                          > > Just out of interest,were you taught to use "molecular mass" or
                          > > "molecular weight"?
                          >
                          > Mass. We had some confusion between "molar mass" and "molecular
                          mass",
                          > but it was always mass, not weight.
                          >
                          > Rachel

                          Interesting. Molecular mass sounds quite alien to me, although I've
                          nothing against it. It seems those few short months between us have
                          seen significant changes.

                          I suggest that anyone wishing to find out the currently approved
                          nomenclature visit the IUPAC site
                          http://www.iupac.org/reports/1993/homann/index.html

                          BTW this gives both molecular mass and molecular weight (mind you, it
                          was last updated in 1993 - what have they been doing since then?)

                          Simon, enjoying this trip down (failing-)memory lane
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