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Re: [Czechlist] Normostrany

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  • Miroslav Herold
    Ahoj Moniko, pokud prekladas v libovolnem DOC souboru jen texty, a nikoli texty v obrazcich, je cesta jednoducha: domluvit se s klientem ze 1 NS (normostrana)
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 27, 2001
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      Ahoj Moniko,

      pokud prekladas v libovolnem DOC souboru jen texty, a nikoli texty v
      obrazcich, je cesta jednoducha: domluvit se s klientem ze 1 NS (normostrana)
      se rovna 1650 (nebo 1800) znaku vcetne mezer dle statistiky WORD97. Volani
      SOUBOR - VLASTNOSTI - zalozka STATISTICKE UDAJE, a bere se posledni radka
      Znaku (s mezerami)
      Toto cislo vydelene smluvenym poctem a zaokrouhlene nahoru je pak pocet NS.
      Horsi je to, kdyz delas v necem jinem nez ve Wordu. Nicmene i Excel a
      PowerPoint umi spocitat slova - a potom je smluvnim ujednanim stanoven pocet
      slov na 1 NS.
      Doporucena praxe je, toto vse osetrit pred zacatkem prekladu a zakotvit
      pisemne bud do objednavky nebo dohody o cene. Jinak totiz te odberatel bude
      zarucene chtit natahnout, alespon zdejsi agentury maji ten mily zvyk.
      preji hodne stesti ve vyjednavani
      Zdravi
      Mirek
      **************************************************************
      Ing.Miroslav HEROLD, CSc.

      tlumočník/překladatel/poradenství/volný novinář
      tel.: xx420 2 5155 4950
      mobil: 0606 865870
      ***********************************************************
      -----Původní zpráva-----
      Od: Monika <cfr.liftec@...>
      Komu: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Datum: 27. února 2001 11:29
      Předmět: [Czechlist] Normostrany


      >ahoj chtela bych se zeptat, jakym zpusobem pocitate normostrany, kdyz delam
      >preklad manualu, kde jsou obrazky, existuje na to nejaky program ktery
      >prevede text na normostrany...
      >dik Monika
      >
      >
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    • Michael Grant
      ... Are you talking about text inside the pictures? AFAIK there s no easier way than just doing it manually. It might be worth trying to save the file as *.txt
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 27, 2001
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        >thank you michael, but how do you coount it if for example you are
        >translating a manual with the pictures? do you do it separetely and add the
        >pics at the end? how do you count the number of the characters?

        Are you talking about text inside the pictures? AFAIK there's no
        easier way than just doing it manually. It might be worth trying to
        save the file as *.txt to see if the illustration text is preserved,
        but it probably won't be.

        Michael

        --
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      • Monika
        no i mean i have a text and pics aside. the text is not in the pics but around. i only can think of copying the text only in a separate doc to count the
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 27, 2001
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          no i mean i have a text and pics aside. the text is not in the pics but
          around. i only can think of copying the text only in a separate doc to count
          the characters but it's a bit worky but ok, but if there is something i can
          do it easier way i would like to know about it :o))
          is there any programme for it or do you know some trick?
          thanks
          monika
        • Rachel Thompson
          ... the ... Which is an incredible hassle if you have lots of pictures -- it basically means copying all the text out of the picture into a separate Word file,
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 27, 2001
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            > >thank you michael, but how do you coount it if for example you are
            > >translating a manual with the pictures? do you do it separetely and add
            the
            > >pics at the end? how do you count the number of the characters?
            >
            > Are you talking about text inside the pictures? AFAIK there's no
            > easier way than just doing it manually.

            Which is an incredible hassle if you have lots of pictures -- it basically
            means copying all the text out of the picture into a separate Word file,
            and then counting it. But in a manual with 100 pictures that's so
            annoying!

            > It might be worth trying to
            > save the file as *.txt to see if the illustration text is preserved,
            > but it probably won't be.

            No, I tried that when I had a similar problem, and it didn't work -- the
            text that was in the pictures simply vanished when it was saved as .txt.
            The way I solved it was to convert the file to PDF using Acrobat
            Distiller, and then do a wordcount in Acrobat Reader. (For some reason
            Acrobat Reader does count text that was inside the pictures, whilst Word
            doesn't.) But this is only an option if you have Distiller. And what's
            more, Acrobat Reader counts all the headers and footers individually,
            whereas Word only counts them once. (That could increase your wordcount
            nicely, but the client might not be too happy... :) )

            But it's worth a try if you do have the program.

            Rachel
          • Monika
            it is. i work in word and add the pics in thoroughly. i will use miroslav s advice... i will see if it works. otherwise i will count it one by one so noone
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 27, 2001
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              it is. i work in word and add the pics in thoroughly.
              i will use miroslav's advice... i will see if it works. otherwise i will
              count it one by one so noone will cheat me :o))
              thank you all for your advices.
              monika


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Rachel Thompson <rachel.thompson@...>
              To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 5:20 PM
              Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Normostrany


              >
              > > >thank you michael, but how do you coount it if for example you are
              > > >translating a manual with the pictures? do you do it separetely and add
              > the
              > > >pics at the end? how do you count the number of the characters?
              > >
              > > Are you talking about text inside the pictures? AFAIK there's no
              > > easier way than just doing it manually.
              >
              > Which is an incredible hassle if you have lots of pictures -- it basically
              > means copying all the text out of the picture into a separate Word file,
              > and then counting it. But in a manual with 100 pictures that's so
              > annoying!
              >
              > > It might be worth trying to
              > > save the file as *.txt to see if the illustration text is preserved,
              > > but it probably won't be.
              >
              > No, I tried that when I had a similar problem, and it didn't work -- the
              > text that was in the pictures simply vanished when it was saved as .txt.
              > The way I solved it was to convert the file to PDF using Acrobat
              > Distiller, and then do a wordcount in Acrobat Reader. (For some reason
              > Acrobat Reader does count text that was inside the pictures, whilst Word
              > doesn't.) But this is only an option if you have Distiller. And what's
              > more, Acrobat Reader counts all the headers and footers individually,
              > whereas Word only counts them once. (That could increase your wordcount
              > nicely, but the client might not be too happy... :) )
              >
              > But it's worth a try if you do have the program.
              >
              > Rachel
              >
              >
              >
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            • Monika
              i will try it, but i never have the text in the pics, just around, so its not a problem. actually i will try now and will let you know. ... From: Rachel
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 27, 2001
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                i will try it, but i never have the text in the pics, just around, so its
                not a problem. actually i will try now and will let you know.

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Rachel Thompson <rachel.thompson@...>
                To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 6:06 PM
                Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Normostrany


                > The problem is that Word doesn't seem to count any text in pictures or
                > text boxes. Try it. Open a new Word document, go to vlozit (insert) and
                > insert a text box (textove pole). Type whatever you like into that box,
                > and then go to nastroje (tools) and pocet slov (wordcount). You will get
                > 0 words, 0 characters.
                >
                > Then try Mirek's suggestion: soubor\vlastnosti\statisticke udaje
                > (file\properties\statistical information??). It doesn't work either! I'm
                > not sure, but I think this is Monika's current problem.
                >
                > It's something that everyone should be aware of -- if you are translating
                > a document that contains text boxes or embedded pictures, Word doesn't
                > count the text inside them. So you could be giving your client some free
                > words if you don't count them yourself.
                >
                > By the way, the two different methods of counting words described above
                > often give different results. I heard that the wordcount (pocet slov)
                > method is more reliable. Does anybody know why?
                >
                > Rachel
                >
                >
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                >
                >
              • Rachel Thompson
                The problem is that Word doesn t seem to count any text in pictures or text boxes. Try it. Open a new Word document, go to vlozit (insert) and insert a text
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 27, 2001
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                  The problem is that Word doesn't seem to count any text in pictures or
                  text boxes. Try it. Open a new Word document, go to vlozit (insert) and
                  insert a text box (textove pole). Type whatever you like into that box,
                  and then go to nastroje (tools) and pocet slov (wordcount). You will get
                  0 words, 0 characters.

                  Then try Mirek's suggestion: soubor\vlastnosti\statisticke udaje
                  (file\properties\statistical information??). It doesn't work either! I'm
                  not sure, but I think this is Monika's current problem.

                  It's something that everyone should be aware of -- if you are translating
                  a document that contains text boxes or embedded pictures, Word doesn't
                  count the text inside them. So you could be giving your client some free
                  words if you don't count them yourself.

                  By the way, the two different methods of counting words described above
                  often give different results. I heard that the wordcount (pocet slov)
                  method is more reliable. Does anybody know why?

                  Rachel
                • Michael Grant
                  ... The result in the Properties count is often different, and to the best of my knowledge less accurate, than using the command Tools - Word Count (I don t
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 27, 2001
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                    >Volani
                    >SOUBOR - VLASTNOSTI - zalozka STATISTICKE UDAJE, a bere se posledni radka
                    >Znaku (s mezerami)

                    The result in the "Properties" count is often different, and to the
                    best of my knowledge less accurate, than using the command Tools ->
                    Word Count (I don't know what the menus and items are called in the
                    localized version).

                    Michael

                    --
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                  • Rachel
                    ... I heard that too. Why is that? Rachel
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 27, 2001
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                      > The result in the "Properties" count is often different, and to the
                      > best of my knowledge less accurate, than using the command Tools ->
                      > Word Count (I don't know what the menus and items are called in the
                      > localized version).

                      I heard that too. Why is that?

                      Rachel
                    • Michael Grant
                      ... Ask Bill.... -- Lou: Hey, Abbott, I hear that if you play the NT 4.0 CD backward, you get a satanic message. Bud: That s nothing. If you play it
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 27, 2001
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                        >I heard that too. Why is that?

                        Ask Bill....

                        --

                        Lou: "Hey, Abbott, I hear that if you play the NT 4.0 CD backward,
                        you get a satanic message."
                        Bud: "That's nothing. If you play it forward, it installs NT 4.0."

                        -Anonymous
                      • Vladimir Vitvar
                        Hi there, Here s what works for me: I haven t got MS WORD, nor have I ever had it (too costly for what it does). From time to time I use the free Text 602 word
                        Message 11 of 22 , Feb 28, 2001
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                          Hi there,

                          Here's what works for me: I haven't got MS WORD, nor have I ever had it (too
                          costly for what it does). From time to time I use the free Text 602 word
                          processor which counts all the characters, whether out of or inside text
                          frames. Mind you, I'm not talking about the ol' DOS thang, but a component
                          of the 602 Pro Suite 2000a, which is quite an achievement, considering the
                          price ($ 0 ;-)). Even the full version (includes dictionaries, spelling and
                          thesaurus) doesn't exceed Kc 2000.

                          Available for free download here: http://www.software602.cz

                          Hope that helps.

                          Vladimir Vitvar
                          v.vitvar@...
                          http://vitvar.webpark.cz
                        • Helena Iši Nevřelová
                          ... From: Vladimir Vitvar To: Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 12:18 PM Subject: [Czechlist] Re:
                          Message 12 of 22 , Feb 28, 2001
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                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Vladimir Vitvar" <v.vitvar@...>
                            To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 12:18 PM
                            Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Normostrany


                            > Hi there,
                            >
                            > Here's what works for me: I haven't got MS WORD, nor have I ever had it
                            (too
                            > costly for what it does). From time to time I use the free Text 602 word
                            > processor which counts all the characters, whether out of or inside text
                            > frames. Mind you, I'm not talking about the ol' DOS thang, but a component
                            > of the 602 Pro Suite 2000a, which is quite an achievement, considering the
                            > price ($ 0 ;-)). Even the full version (includes dictionaries, spelling
                            and
                            > thesaurus) doesn't exceed Kc 2000.
                            >
                            > Available for free download here: http://www.software602.cz
                            >
                            > Hope that helps.
                            >
                            > Vladimir Vitvar
                            > v.vitvar@...
                            > http://vitvar.webpark.cz
                            >
                            >
                            > Czechlist: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist
                            >
                            > Databases: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/database
                            >
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                            >
                            > Subscribe: Czechlist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > Unsubscribe: Czechlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > Egroups addresses and URLs will continue to work.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Michal Ginter
                            I always thought that 1 normostrana equalled 1800 characters including spaces, but several translators here and in Hungary told me that it s 1500 characters.
                            Message 13 of 22 , Feb 28, 2001
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                              I always thought that 1 normostrana equalled 1800 characters including
                              spaces, but several translators here and in Hungary told me that it's
                              1500 characters. So, I use 1500 characters - go figure. :-)

                              Anyway, what do you guys do about presentations in Powerpoint? I've
                              only translated a few of those, and this is how I came up with the
                              number of pages. I took the word-count from the statistics,
                              multiplied it by 7 to get the approximate number of characters,
                              divided it by 1500 to get the number of pages, and charged 50 % more
                              than I would for a regular file. Any other suggestions?

                              Michal
                            • padamek@mbox.dkm.cz
                              Moje agentura pocita 3 snimky v Power-Pointu jako jednu normostranu, coz povazuji za velice vyhodne. Kdyz to zakaznik bere ... Petr Adamek ... Michal
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 1, 2001
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                                Moje agentura pocita 3 snimky v Power-Pointu jako jednu normostranu,
                                coz povazuji za velice vyhodne. Kdyz to zakaznik bere ...
                                Petr Adamek
                                --- In Czechlist@y..., Michal Ginter <michalginter@v...> wrote:
                                > Anyway, what do you guys do about presentations in Powerpoint? >
                                Michal
                              • Jirka Bolech
                                Hi, as far as I can recall the original definition of a , it is made up of 30 [normor^a dek] (double-spaced lines) while a
                                Message 15 of 22 , Mar 1, 2001
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                                  Hi,

                                  as far as I can recall the original definition of a <normostrana>, it is
                                  made up of 30 <normoradek> [normor^a'dek] (double-spaced lines) while a
                                  <normoradek> is each line on the page, including incomplete lines, such as
                                  headlines, indented paragraphs, and last lines in paragraphs, of the nominal
                                  number of characters 60, including spaces between words. In this definition,
                                  a <normostrana> is also, very much like a <normoradek>, an incomplete page,
                                  typically the last page of a document.

                                  I believe that this definition was originally made to serve typographic
                                  purposes only, that it to quantify text in book printing and suchlike. It
                                  was later adopted by the language translation "pricing standards". I used to
                                  apply this 1,800-character approach at the beginning of the 1990s,
                                  completely independently of anybody, just trying to calculate my
                                  translations' price in a fair manner, basically favourable for the client,
                                  perhaps just to avoid disputes or haggles.

                                  However, this way of quantifying a text has been a dead thing for me since
                                  soon after I observed on Lantra-L that wordcount was a broadly accepted
                                  method. That may have been some five years ago, I can't remember exactly.

                                  Jirka Bolech
                                • Radovan Pletka
                                  Dostal jsem e-mail od JTP: ... === a odeplsal jsem jim nasledujici: === Vzhledem ke zvysovani postovneho, zvlaste do ciziny mne napadlo, ze byste meli
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Mar 1, 2001
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                                    Dostal jsem e-mail od JTP:
                                    ===
                                    >Vysel breznovy ToP (56/2001).
                                    >Vzhledem k tomu, ze Ceska posta nas nemilosrdne drrti zvysovanim postovneho,
                                    >jeste vice budeme vdecni kazdemu z Prazaku a okolnich ci prespolnim co cestu
                                    >okolo budou mit, kdyz si sve cislo zajdou vyzvednout. Rozesilat postou
                                    >budeme az po 12. breznu.
                                    ===
                                    a odeplsal jsem jim nasledujici:
                                    ===
                                    Vzhledem ke zvysovani postovneho, zvlaste do ciziny mne napadlo, ze byste
                                    meli nabidnout clenum moznost dostavat casopis jako elektronicky soubor
                                    (Word nebo pdf nebo obe) a oni by si ho vytiskli sami (vy si tim usetrite
                                    penize za postovne a tisteni) - a pokud cast techto uspor date zpet clenum
                                    ve forme o neco levnejsiho predplatneho, zvlaste do ciziny, kde budou
                                    uspory nejvetsi, budou vsichni spokojeni.

                                    Zdravi Radek Pletka
                                    ===

                                    ale vypada to, ze muj e-mail zmizel v nenavratnu. Ale protoze vim, ze par
                                    lidi z JTP cte tuhle skupinu, mozna ze se to k nim dostane takto (-:












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                                  • monika@cb.bohem-net.cz
                                    Jeste jednou se vracim k normostranam. Diskutovala jsem na toto tema s agenturou, pro kterou dost casto pracuji. Tato agentura pocita jednu normostranu tak, ze
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Mar 1, 2001
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                                      Jeste jednou se vracim k normostranam. Diskutovala jsem na toto tema
                                      s agenturou, pro kterou dost casto pracuji. Tato agentura pocita
                                      jednu normostranu tak, ze sice bere 1.800 znaku, ale BEZ mezer.
                                      Oponuji tim, ze se obcas stane, tedy pokud jsou v textu nejake
                                      graficke upravy, ze misto 3 stranek by jich takto s mezerama vzniklo
                                      12. (Nadnesla jsem, ze by se tedy mezery nemusely mezi slovy vubec
                                      psat, kdyz to neni uhoz, ale tvarili se divne). Nadto jeste
                                      nezaokrouhluji na cele stranky, ale plati jenom za "skutecne"
                                      prelozeny text (a to dokonce i v pripade prvni - neboli jedine
                                      stranky), takze clovek prelozi treba 3 vety, zaplati par korun
                                      Telecomu za to, ze to musi stahnout a odeslat, a vysledek je ten, ze
                                      v lepsim pripade nula od nuly pojde. Uz slysim, jak si rikate, proc s
                                      nimi jeste teda vubec delam. Dobra otazka, ale nepatri k tematu
                                      normostran.

                                      Monika C.
                                    • Kostas Zgafas
                                      Nadto jeste nezaokrouhluji na cele stranky, ale plati jenom za skutecne ... Standardni praxe je uctovat 1 NS jako minimum, bez ohledu na to, jak je text
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Mar 1, 2001
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                                        Nadto jeste nezaokrouhluji na cele stranky, ale plati jenom za "skutecne"
                                        > prelozeny text (a to dokonce i v pripade prvni - neboli jedine
                                        > stranky), takze clovek prelozi treba 3 vety, zaplati par korun
                                        > Telecomu za to, ze to musi stahnout a odeslat, a vysledek je ten, ze
                                        > v lepsim pripade nula od nuly pojde.

                                        Standardni praxe je uctovat 1 NS jako minimum, bez ohledu na to, jak je text
                                        kratky.

                                        K.
                                      • Michael Grant
                                        ... Your client s attitude is why rates in the Czech and Slovak Republics are the lowest in Central Europe--substantially lower than in neighboring countries
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Mar 1, 2001
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                                          >Jeste jednou se vracim k normostranam. Diskutovala jsem na toto tema
                                          >s agenturou, pro kterou dost casto pracuji. Tato agentura pocita
                                          >jednu normostranu tak, ze sice bere 1.800 znaku, ale BEZ mezer.
                                          >Oponuji tim, ze se obcas stane, tedy pokud jsou v textu nejake
                                          >graficke upravy, ze misto 3 stranek by jich takto s mezerama vzniklo
                                          >12. (Nadnesla jsem, ze by se tedy mezery nemusely mezi slovy vubec
                                          >psat, kdyz to neni uhoz, ale tvarili se divne). Nadto jeste
                                          >nezaokrouhluji na cele stranky, ale plati jenom za "skutecne"
                                          >prelozeny text (a to dokonce i v pripade prvni - neboli jedine
                                          >stranky), takze clovek prelozi treba 3 vety, zaplati par korun
                                          >Telecomu za to, ze to musi stahnout a odeslat, a vysledek je ten, ze
                                          >v lepsim pripade nula od nuly pojde. Uz slysim, jak si rikate, proc s
                                          >nimi jeste teda vubec delam. Dobra otazka, ale nepatri k tematu
                                          >normostran.

                                          Your client's attitude is why rates in the Czech and Slovak Republics
                                          are the lowest in Central Europe--substantially lower than in
                                          neighboring countries whose overall average incomes are lower. The
                                          agencies aren't doing themselves any favors by keeping it that way.

                                          Michael

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