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Re: 4 Changes to English So Subtle We Hardly Notice They're Happening

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  • Melvyn
    As Valerie pointed out, the -ing here can make it can sound more vivid. We were discussing something similar some time ago.
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
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      As Valerie pointed out, the -ing here can make it can sound more vivid.

      We were discussing something similar some time ago.

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/29290

      BR

      Melvyn


      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
      >
      > It's annoying, but it does convey the reality that the person is experiencing fleeting enjoyment from something that he may not enjoy anymore a couple minutes later.
      >
      > Often I have to admit that some nonstandard usages of English that zing my fillings actually do express something that the standard forms might not.
      >
      > Jamie
      >
      > On Jul 9, 2013, at 9:44 AM, wustpisk wrote:
      >
      > >
      > > One thing I detest, and I have noticed it creeping insidiously more and more into the language via the media (largely of the Simon Cowell variety), is the apparently new verb 'to be liking'
      > > e.g. 'I am liking that' or, even more criminally, 'I am SO liking that', and so on. Such abominations generally warrant an immediate reach over to the 'off' button on the remote and a need to cleanse the mind of such impurities.
      > >
      > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> There are occasions when I would prefer start -ing over start to, but this may be just a personal stylistic thing. Normally I teach students that the two are pretty much interchangeable.
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> He started playing the guitar when he was thirteen.
      > >> I prefer this form if the guitar-playing went on for some considerable time, e.g. if he is a famous guitarist today. If he were interrupted then I would prefer e.g. He picked up the guitar and started to play, but dad yelled from upstairs etc...
      > >>
      > >> You will have to start dealing with these situations yourself.
      > >> Here I would also avoid "to start to" just for reasons of euphony. Sounds a bit kinda jerky to me.
      > >>
      > >> But as I say, this is possibly just my idiolect.
      > >>
      > >> A note on like to/like ing
      > >>
      > >> If you want to stress enjoyment and pleasure then IMHO go for like -ing. If you think something is correct and proper then go for like to. Compare
      > >>
      > >> I like getting up at five in the morning and going for a ten-mile run (I am a bit weird and you should avoid getting into conversation with me if at all possible)
      > >>
      > >> I like to get up at five in the morning etc (e.g. I think one ought to, by Jove)
      > >>
      > >> I have come across this distinction in textbooks and elsewhere e.g.
      > >> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2161017
      > >>
      > >> but I am sure BrEng and USEng usage also differs and of course many would ignore all potential differences.
      > >>
      > >> More when I get a moment.
      > >>
      > >> BR
      > >>
      > >> Melvyn
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      > > _______________________________________________
      > > Czechlist mailing list
      > > Czechlist@...
      > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > Czechlist mailing list
      > Czechlist@...
      > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >
    • wustpisk
      Come to think of it, to be loving sth. (or maybe to be lovin sth. ) is probably more common that to be liking sth. This is another one in the same vein:
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
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        Come to think of it, 'to be loving sth.' (or maybe 'to be lovin' sth.') is probably more common that 'to be liking sth.'

        This is another one in the same vein: http://pinterest.com/eschos/i-am-so-going-there/


        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > As Valerie pointed out, the -ing here can make it can sound more vivid.
        >
        > We were discussing something similar some time ago.
        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/29290
        >
        > BR
        >
        > Melvyn
        >
        >
        > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
        > >
        > > It's annoying, but it does convey the reality that the person is experiencing fleeting enjoyment from something that he may not enjoy anymore a couple minutes later.
        > >
        > > Often I have to admit that some nonstandard usages of English that zing my fillings actually do express something that the standard forms might not.
        > >
        > > Jamie
        > >
        > > On Jul 9, 2013, at 9:44 AM, wustpisk wrote:
        > >
        > > >
        > > > One thing I detest, and I have noticed it creeping insidiously more and more into the language via the media (largely of the Simon Cowell variety), is the apparently new verb 'to be liking'
        > > > e.g. 'I am liking that' or, even more criminally, 'I am SO liking that', and so on. Such abominations generally warrant an immediate reach over to the 'off' button on the remote and a need to cleanse the mind of such impurities.
        > > >
        > > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >> There are occasions when I would prefer start -ing over start to, but this may be just a personal stylistic thing. Normally I teach students that the two are pretty much interchangeable.
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >> He started playing the guitar when he was thirteen.
        > > >> I prefer this form if the guitar-playing went on for some considerable time, e.g. if he is a famous guitarist today. If he were interrupted then I would prefer e.g. He picked up the guitar and started to play, but dad yelled from upstairs etc...
        > > >>
        > > >> You will have to start dealing with these situations yourself.
        > > >> Here I would also avoid "to start to" just for reasons of euphony. Sounds a bit kinda jerky to me.
        > > >>
        > > >> But as I say, this is possibly just my idiolect.
        > > >>
        > > >> A note on like to/like ing
        > > >>
        > > >> If you want to stress enjoyment and pleasure then IMHO go for like -ing. If you think something is correct and proper then go for like to. Compare
        > > >>
        > > >> I like getting up at five in the morning and going for a ten-mile run (I am a bit weird and you should avoid getting into conversation with me if at all possible)
        > > >>
        > > >> I like to get up at five in the morning etc (e.g. I think one ought to, by Jove)
        > > >>
        > > >> I have come across this distinction in textbooks and elsewhere e.g.
        > > >> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2161017
        > > >>
        > > >> but I am sure BrEng and USEng usage also differs and of course many would ignore all potential differences.
        > > >>
        > > >> More when I get a moment.
        > > >>
        > > >> BR
        > > >>
        > > >> Melvyn
        > > >>
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > _______________________________________________
        > > > Czechlist mailing list
        > > > Czechlist@
        > > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
        > >
        > >
        > > _______________________________________________
        > > Czechlist mailing list
        > > Czechlist@
        > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
        > >
        >
      • Melvyn
        So going to do sth does strike me as very 21st century. So does like totally going to do sth . Perhaps I missed out on the valley girl thing. My niece in
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
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          "So going to do sth" does strike me as very 21st century. So does "like totally going to do sth". Perhaps I missed out on the valley girl thing.

          My niece in Yorkshire now refers to us as "you guys". Whatever next?

          BR

          Melvyn

          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Come to think of it, 'to be loving sth.' (or maybe 'to be lovin' sth.') is probably more common that 'to be liking sth.'
          >
          > This is another one in the same vein: http://pinterest.com/eschos/i-am-so-going-there/
          >
          >
          > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > As Valerie pointed out, the -ing here can make it can sound more vivid.
          > >
          > > We were discussing something similar some time ago.
          > >
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/29290
          > >
          > > BR
          > >
          > > Melvyn
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > It's annoying, but it does convey the reality that the person is experiencing fleeting enjoyment from something that he may not enjoy anymore a couple minutes later.
          > > >
          > > > Often I have to admit that some nonstandard usages of English that zing my fillings actually do express something that the standard forms might not.
          > > >
          > > > Jamie
          > > >
          > > > On Jul 9, 2013, at 9:44 AM, wustpisk wrote:
          > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > One thing I detest, and I have noticed it creeping insidiously more and more into the language via the media (largely of the Simon Cowell variety), is the apparently new verb 'to be liking'
          > > > > e.g. 'I am liking that' or, even more criminally, 'I am SO liking that', and so on. Such abominations generally warrant an immediate reach over to the 'off' button on the remote and a need to cleanse the mind of such impurities.
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
          > > > >>
          > > > >>
          > > > >>
          > > > >> There are occasions when I would prefer start -ing over start to, but this may be just a personal stylistic thing. Normally I teach students that the two are pretty much interchangeable.
          > > > >>
          > > > >>
          > > > >> He started playing the guitar when he was thirteen.
          > > > >> I prefer this form if the guitar-playing went on for some considerable time, e.g. if he is a famous guitarist today. If he were interrupted then I would prefer e.g. He picked up the guitar and started to play, but dad yelled from upstairs etc...
          > > > >>
          > > > >> You will have to start dealing with these situations yourself.
          > > > >> Here I would also avoid "to start to" just for reasons of euphony. Sounds a bit kinda jerky to me.
          > > > >>
          > > > >> But as I say, this is possibly just my idiolect.
          > > > >>
          > > > >> A note on like to/like ing
          > > > >>
          > > > >> If you want to stress enjoyment and pleasure then IMHO go for like -ing. If you think something is correct and proper then go for like to. Compare
          > > > >>
          > > > >> I like getting up at five in the morning and going for a ten-mile run (I am a bit weird and you should avoid getting into conversation with me if at all possible)
          > > > >>
          > > > >> I like to get up at five in the morning etc (e.g. I think one ought to, by Jove)
          > > > >>
          > > > >> I have come across this distinction in textbooks and elsewhere e.g.
          > > > >> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2161017
          > > > >>
          > > > >> but I am sure BrEng and USEng usage also differs and of course many would ignore all potential differences.
          > > > >>
          > > > >> More when I get a moment.
          > > > >>
          > > > >> BR
          > > > >>
          > > > >> Melvyn
          > > > >>
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > _______________________________________________
          > > > > Czechlist mailing list
          > > > > Czechlist@
          > > > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > _______________________________________________
          > > > Czechlist mailing list
          > > > Czechlist@
          > > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • James Kirchner
          What comes next is the possessive of you guys , which is variantly your guys , you guys s or your guys s . It s the northern equivalent of y all and
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
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            What comes next is the possessive of "you guys", which is variantly "your guys", "you guys's" or "your guys's".

            It's the northern equivalent of "y'all" and "y'all's".

            Jamie

            On Jul 9, 2013, at 12:08 PM, Melvyn wrote:

            > My niece in Yorkshire now refers to us as "you guys". Whatever next?

            _______________________________________________
            Czechlist mailing list
            Czechlist@...
            http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
          • wustpisk
            My 8 year-old son has been weaned off using awesome as he is docked pocket money whenever he utters it.
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
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              My 8 year-old son has been weaned off using 'awesome' as he is docked pocket money whenever he utters it.

              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...> wrote:
              >
              > "So going to do sth" does strike me as very 21st century. So does "like totally going to do sth". Perhaps I missed out on the valley girl thing.
              >
              > My niece in Yorkshire now refers to us as "you guys". Whatever next?
              >
              > BR
              >
              > Melvyn
              >
              > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Come to think of it, 'to be loving sth.' (or maybe 'to be lovin' sth.') is probably more common that 'to be liking sth.'
              > >
              > > This is another one in the same vein: http://pinterest.com/eschos/i-am-so-going-there/
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > As Valerie pointed out, the -ing here can make it can sound more vivid.
              > > >
              > > > We were discussing something similar some time ago.
              > > >
              > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/29290
              > > >
              > > > BR
              > > >
              > > > Melvyn
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > It's annoying, but it does convey the reality that the person is experiencing fleeting enjoyment from something that he may not enjoy anymore a couple minutes later.
              > > > >
              > > > > Often I have to admit that some nonstandard usages of English that zing my fillings actually do express something that the standard forms might not.
              > > > >
              > > > > Jamie
              > > > >
              > > > > On Jul 9, 2013, at 9:44 AM, wustpisk wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > One thing I detest, and I have noticed it creeping insidiously more and more into the language via the media (largely of the Simon Cowell variety), is the apparently new verb 'to be liking'
              > > > > > e.g. 'I am liking that' or, even more criminally, 'I am SO liking that', and so on. Such abominations generally warrant an immediate reach over to the 'off' button on the remote and a need to cleanse the mind of such impurities.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >> There are occasions when I would prefer start -ing over start to, but this may be just a personal stylistic thing. Normally I teach students that the two are pretty much interchangeable.
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >> He started playing the guitar when he was thirteen.
              > > > > >> I prefer this form if the guitar-playing went on for some considerable time, e.g. if he is a famous guitarist today. If he were interrupted then I would prefer e.g. He picked up the guitar and started to play, but dad yelled from upstairs etc...
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >> You will have to start dealing with these situations yourself.
              > > > > >> Here I would also avoid "to start to" just for reasons of euphony. Sounds a bit kinda jerky to me.
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >> But as I say, this is possibly just my idiolect.
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >> A note on like to/like ing
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >> If you want to stress enjoyment and pleasure then IMHO go for like -ing. If you think something is correct and proper then go for like to. Compare
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >> I like getting up at five in the morning and going for a ten-mile run (I am a bit weird and you should avoid getting into conversation with me if at all possible)
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >> I like to get up at five in the morning etc (e.g. I think one ought to, by Jove)
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >> I have come across this distinction in textbooks and elsewhere e.g.
              > > > > >> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2161017
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >> but I am sure BrEng and USEng usage also differs and of course many would ignore all potential differences.
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >> More when I get a moment.
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >> BR
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >> Melvyn
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > _______________________________________________
              > > > > > Czechlist mailing list
              > > > > > Czechlist@
              > > > > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > _______________________________________________
              > > > > Czechlist mailing list
              > > > > Czechlist@
              > > > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • James Kirchner
              Good for you! Twice this semester I ve had to explain to my ESL class that something commonly referred to as awesome is much less awesome than the word
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
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                Good for you! Twice this semester I've had to explain to my ESL class that something commonly referred to as "awesome" is much less awesome than the word originally implied. I have to get across that the word is properly applied to God or the Grand Canyon or something, not socks or a cigarette lighter.

                Just make sure the kid doesn't start calling everything "epic".

                Jamie

                On Jul 9, 2013, at 12:12 PM, wustpisk wrote:

                > My 8 year-old son has been weaned off using 'awesome' as he is docked pocket money whenever he utters it.
                >
                > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> "So going to do sth" does strike me as very 21st century. So does "like totally going to do sth". Perhaps I missed out on the valley girl thing.
                >>
                >> My niece in Yorkshire now refers to us as "you guys". Whatever next?
                >>
                >> BR
                >>
                >> Melvyn
                >>
                >> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@> wrote:
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> Come to think of it, 'to be loving sth.' (or maybe 'to be lovin' sth.') is probably more common that 'to be liking sth.'
                >>>
                >>> This is another one in the same vein: http://pinterest.com/eschos/i-am-so-going-there/
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>> As Valerie pointed out, the -ing here can make it can sound more vivid.
                >>>>
                >>>> We were discussing something similar some time ago.
                >>>>
                >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/29290
                >>>>
                >>>> BR
                >>>>
                >>>> Melvyn
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
                >>>>>
                >>>>> It's annoying, but it does convey the reality that the person is experiencing fleeting enjoyment from something that he may not enjoy anymore a couple minutes later.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Often I have to admit that some nonstandard usages of English that zing my fillings actually do express something that the standard forms might not.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Jamie
                >>>>>
                >>>>> On Jul 9, 2013, at 9:44 AM, wustpisk wrote:
                >>>>>
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>> One thing I detest, and I have noticed it creeping insidiously more and more into the language via the media (largely of the Simon Cowell variety), is the apparently new verb 'to be liking'
                >>>>>> e.g. 'I am liking that' or, even more criminally, 'I am SO liking that', and so on. Such abominations generally warrant an immediate reach over to the 'off' button on the remote and a need to cleanse the mind of such impurities.
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>> There are occasions when I would prefer start -ing over start to, but this may be just a personal stylistic thing. Normally I teach students that the two are pretty much interchangeable.
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>> He started playing the guitar when he was thirteen.
                >>>>>>> I prefer this form if the guitar-playing went on for some considerable time, e.g. if he is a famous guitarist today. If he were interrupted then I would prefer e.g. He picked up the guitar and started to play, but dad yelled from upstairs etc...
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>> You will have to start dealing with these situations yourself.
                >>>>>>> Here I would also avoid "to start to" just for reasons of euphony. Sounds a bit kinda jerky to me.
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>> But as I say, this is possibly just my idiolect.
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>> A note on like to/like ing
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>> If you want to stress enjoyment and pleasure then IMHO go for like -ing. If you think something is correct and proper then go for like to. Compare
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>> I like getting up at five in the morning and going for a ten-mile run (I am a bit weird and you should avoid getting into conversation with me if at all possible)
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>> I like to get up at five in the morning etc (e.g. I think one ought to, by Jove)
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>> I have come across this distinction in textbooks and elsewhere e.g.
                >>>>>>> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2161017
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>> but I am sure BrEng and USEng usage also differs and of course many would ignore all potential differences.
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>> More when I get a moment.
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>> BR
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>> Melvyn
                >>>>>>>
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>>
                >>>>>> _______________________________________________
                >>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
                >>>>>> Czechlist@
                >>>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>>> _______________________________________________
                >>>>> Czechlist mailing list
                >>>>> Czechlist@
                >>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                >>>>>
                >>>>
                >>>
                >>
                >
                >
                > _______________________________________________
                > Czechlist mailing list
                > Czechlist@...
                > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


                _______________________________________________
                Czechlist mailing list
                Czechlist@...
                http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
              • wustpisk
                Yes - I encourage the use of awe-inspiring instead, and then only appropriately. While we re at it, another thing that gets my goat is another Cowellism, to
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
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                  Yes - I encourage the use of 'awe-inspiring' instead, and then only appropriately.

                  While we're at it, another thing that gets my goat is another Cowellism, to wit:

                  - How are you?
                  - I'm good, thanks

                  The only proper response to this is of course:
                  - I was enquiring after your health and well-being, I wasn't asking for a moral opinion about yourself.



                  --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Good for you! Twice this semester I've had to explain to my ESL class that something commonly referred to as "awesome" is much less awesome than the word originally implied. I have to get across that the word is properly applied to God or the Grand Canyon or something, not socks or a cigarette lighter.
                  >
                  > Just make sure the kid doesn't start calling everything "epic".
                  >
                  > Jamie
                  >
                  > On Jul 9, 2013, at 12:12 PM, wustpisk wrote:
                  >
                  > > My 8 year-old son has been weaned off using 'awesome' as he is docked pocket money whenever he utters it.
                  > >
                  > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >> "So going to do sth" does strike me as very 21st century. So does "like totally going to do sth". Perhaps I missed out on the valley girl thing.
                  > >>
                  > >> My niece in Yorkshire now refers to us as "you guys". Whatever next?
                  > >>
                  > >> BR
                  > >>
                  > >> Melvyn
                  > >>
                  > >> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@> wrote:
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>> Come to think of it, 'to be loving sth.' (or maybe 'to be lovin' sth.') is probably more common that 'to be liking sth.'
                  > >>>
                  > >>> This is another one in the same vein: http://pinterest.com/eschos/i-am-so-going-there/
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> As Valerie pointed out, the -ing here can make it can sound more vivid.
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> We were discussing something similar some time ago.
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/29290
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> BR
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> Melvyn
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> It's annoying, but it does convey the reality that the person is experiencing fleeting enjoyment from something that he may not enjoy anymore a couple minutes later.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Often I have to admit that some nonstandard usages of English that zing my fillings actually do express something that the standard forms might not.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Jamie
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> On Jul 9, 2013, at 9:44 AM, wustpisk wrote:
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>>
                  > >>>>>> One thing I detest, and I have noticed it creeping insidiously more and more into the language via the media (largely of the Simon Cowell variety), is the apparently new verb 'to be liking'
                  > >>>>>> e.g. 'I am liking that' or, even more criminally, 'I am SO liking that', and so on. Such abominations generally warrant an immediate reach over to the 'off' button on the remote and a need to cleanse the mind of such impurities.
                  > >>>>>>
                  > >>>>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>> There are occasions when I would prefer start -ing over start to, but this may be just a personal stylistic thing. Normally I teach students that the two are pretty much interchangeable.
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>> He started playing the guitar when he was thirteen.
                  > >>>>>>> I prefer this form if the guitar-playing went on for some considerable time, e.g. if he is a famous guitarist today. If he were interrupted then I would prefer e.g. He picked up the guitar and started to play, but dad yelled from upstairs etc...
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>> You will have to start dealing with these situations yourself.
                  > >>>>>>> Here I would also avoid "to start to" just for reasons of euphony. Sounds a bit kinda jerky to me.
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>> But as I say, this is possibly just my idiolect.
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>> A note on like to/like ing
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>> If you want to stress enjoyment and pleasure then IMHO go for like -ing. If you think something is correct and proper then go for like to. Compare
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>> I like getting up at five in the morning and going for a ten-mile run (I am a bit weird and you should avoid getting into conversation with me if at all possible)
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>> I like to get up at five in the morning etc (e.g. I think one ought to, by Jove)
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>> I have come across this distinction in textbooks and elsewhere e.g.
                  > >>>>>>> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2161017
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>> but I am sure BrEng and USEng usage also differs and of course many would ignore all potential differences.
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>> More when I get a moment.
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>> BR
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>> Melvyn
                  > >>>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>
                  > >>>>>>
                  > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
                  > >>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
                  > >>>>>> Czechlist@
                  > >>>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> _______________________________________________
                  > >>>>> Czechlist mailing list
                  > >>>>> Czechlist@
                  > >>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > _______________________________________________
                  > > Czechlist mailing list
                  > > Czechlist@...
                  > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                  >
                  >
                  > _______________________________________________
                  > Czechlist mailing list
                  > Czechlist@...
                  > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                  >
                • James Kirchner
                  I m convinced that I m good is not a veering away from proper English (much as I hate it) but a return to the Nordic substrate, since people say they re
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
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                    I'm convinced that "I'm good" is not a veering away from proper English (much as I hate it) but a return to the Nordic substrate, since people say they're "god" in the Scandinavian languages.

                    The issue is that if you say, "I'm fine," that may be an exaggeration, and if you say, "I'm well," it means you're not sick. So it's always a little off-kilter, unless you just ignore the question.

                    Maybe we should just adopt the British "how do you do" custom of asking the same question back. (That one really startled me the first time I saw it in a British ESL book!)

                    Jamie

                    On Jul 9, 2013, at 12:26 PM, wustpisk wrote:

                    > Yes - I encourage the use of 'awe-inspiring' instead, and then only appropriately.
                    >
                    > While we're at it, another thing that gets my goat is another Cowellism, to wit:
                    >
                    > - How are you?
                    > - I'm good, thanks
                    >
                    > The only proper response to this is of course:
                    > - I was enquiring after your health and well-being, I wasn't asking for a moral opinion about yourself.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Good for you! Twice this semester I've had to explain to my ESL class that something commonly referred to as "awesome" is much less awesome than the word originally implied. I have to get across that the word is properly applied to God or the Grand Canyon or something, not socks or a cigarette lighter.
                    >>
                    >> Just make sure the kid doesn't start calling everything "epic".
                    >>
                    >> Jamie
                    >>
                    >> On Jul 9, 2013, at 12:12 PM, wustpisk wrote:
                    >>
                    >>> My 8 year-old son has been weaned off using 'awesome' as he is docked pocket money whenever he utters it.
                    >>>
                    >>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                    >>>>
                    >>>> "So going to do sth" does strike me as very 21st century. So does "like totally going to do sth". Perhaps I missed out on the valley girl thing.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> My niece in Yorkshire now refers to us as "you guys". Whatever next?
                    >>>>
                    >>>> BR
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Melvyn
                    >>>>
                    >>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@> wrote:
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> Come to think of it, 'to be loving sth.' (or maybe 'to be lovin' sth.') is probably more common that 'to be liking sth.'
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> This is another one in the same vein: http://pinterest.com/eschos/i-am-so-going-there/
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> As Valerie pointed out, the -ing here can make it can sound more vivid.
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> We were discussing something similar some time ago.
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/29290
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> BR
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> Melvyn
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> It's annoying, but it does convey the reality that the person is experiencing fleeting enjoyment from something that he may not enjoy anymore a couple minutes later.
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> Often I have to admit that some nonstandard usages of English that zing my fillings actually do express something that the standard forms might not.
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> Jamie
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2013, at 9:44 AM, wustpisk wrote:
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>> One thing I detest, and I have noticed it creeping insidiously more and more into the language via the media (largely of the Simon Cowell variety), is the apparently new verb 'to be liking'
                    >>>>>>>> e.g. 'I am liking that' or, even more criminally, 'I am SO liking that', and so on. Such abominations generally warrant an immediate reach over to the 'off' button on the remote and a need to cleanse the mind of such impurities.
                    >>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                    >>>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>> There are occasions when I would prefer start -ing over start to, but this may be just a personal stylistic thing. Normally I teach students that the two are pretty much interchangeable.
                    >>>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>> He started playing the guitar when he was thirteen.
                    >>>>>>>>> I prefer this form if the guitar-playing went on for some considerable time, e.g. if he is a famous guitarist today. If he were interrupted then I would prefer e.g. He picked up the guitar and started to play, but dad yelled from upstairs etc...
                    >>>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>> You will have to start dealing with these situations yourself.
                    >>>>>>>>> Here I would also avoid "to start to" just for reasons of euphony. Sounds a bit kinda jerky to me.
                    >>>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>> But as I say, this is possibly just my idiolect.
                    >>>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>> A note on like to/like ing
                    >>>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>> If you want to stress enjoyment and pleasure then IMHO go for like -ing. If you think something is correct and proper then go for like to. Compare
                    >>>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>> I like getting up at five in the morning and going for a ten-mile run (I am a bit weird and you should avoid getting into conversation with me if at all possible)
                    >>>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>> I like to get up at five in the morning etc (e.g. I think one ought to, by Jove)
                    >>>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>> I have come across this distinction in textbooks and elsewhere e.g.
                    >>>>>>>>> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2161017
                    >>>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>> but I am sure BrEng and USEng usage also differs and of course many would ignore all potential differences.
                    >>>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>> More when I get a moment.
                    >>>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>> BR
                    >>>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>> Melvyn
                    >>>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
                    >>>>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
                    >>>>>>>> Czechlist@
                    >>>>>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
                    >>>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
                    >>>>>>> Czechlist@
                    >>>>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> _______________________________________________
                    >>> Czechlist mailing list
                    >>> Czechlist@...
                    >>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> _______________________________________________
                    >> Czechlist mailing list
                    >> Czechlist@...
                    >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                    >>
                    >
                    > _______________________________________________
                    > Czechlist mailing list
                    > Czechlist@...
                    > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


                    _______________________________________________
                    Czechlist mailing list
                    Czechlist@...
                    http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                  • Hannah Geiger
                    One change that I really do notice, at least across the pond, is the between him and I , they invited my husband and I - it knows no socio-economic
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
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                      One change that I really do notice, at least across the pond, is the
                      "between him and I", "they invited my husband and I" - it knows no
                      socio-economic boundaries. I sometimes wonder how and when this came
                      about.

                      Hanka

                      On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 12:38 PM, James Kirchner <jpklists@...>wrote:

                      > I'm convinced that "I'm good" is not a veering away from proper English
                      > (much as I hate it) but a return to the Nordic substrate, since people say
                      > they're "god" in the Scandinavian languages.
                      >
                      > The issue is that if you say, "I'm fine," that may be an exaggeration, and
                      > if you say, "I'm well," it means you're not sick. So it's always a little
                      > off-kilter, unless you just ignore the question.
                      >
                      > Maybe we should just adopt the British "how do you do" custom of asking
                      > the same question back. (That one really startled me the first time I saw
                      > it in a British ESL book!)
                      >
                      > Jamie
                      >
                      > On Jul 9, 2013, at 12:26 PM, wustpisk wrote:
                      >
                      > > Yes - I encourage the use of 'awe-inspiring' instead, and then only
                      > appropriately.
                      > >
                      > > While we're at it, another thing that gets my goat is another Cowellism,
                      > to wit:
                      > >
                      > > - How are you?
                      > > - I'm good, thanks
                      > >
                      > > The only proper response to this is of course:
                      > > - I was enquiring after your health and well-being, I wasn't asking for
                      > a moral opinion about yourself.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >> Good for you! Twice this semester I've had to explain to my ESL class
                      > that something commonly referred to as "awesome" is much less awesome than
                      > the word originally implied. I have to get across that the word is
                      > properly applied to God or the Grand Canyon or something, not socks or a
                      > cigarette lighter.
                      > >>
                      > >> Just make sure the kid doesn't start calling everything "epic".
                      > >>
                      > >> Jamie
                      > >>
                      > >> On Jul 9, 2013, at 12:12 PM, wustpisk wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >>> My 8 year-old son has been weaned off using 'awesome' as he is docked
                      > pocket money whenever he utters it.
                      > >>>
                      > >>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> "So going to do sth" does strike me as very 21st century. So does
                      > "like totally going to do sth". Perhaps I missed out on the valley girl
                      > thing.
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> My niece in Yorkshire now refers to us as "you guys". Whatever next?
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> BR
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> Melvyn
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@> wrote:
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> Come to think of it, 'to be loving sth.' (or maybe 'to be lovin'
                      > sth.') is probably more common that 'to be liking sth.'
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> This is another one in the same vein:
                      > http://pinterest.com/eschos/i-am-so-going-there/
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                      > >>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>
                      > >>>>>> As Valerie pointed out, the -ing here can make it can sound more
                      > vivid.
                      > >>>>>>
                      > >>>>>> We were discussing something similar some time ago.
                      > >>>>>>
                      > >>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/29290
                      > >>>>>>
                      > >>>>>> BR
                      > >>>>>>
                      > >>>>>> Melvyn
                      > >>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>
                      > >>>>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>> It's annoying, but it does convey the reality that the person is
                      > experiencing fleeting enjoyment from something that he may not enjoy
                      > anymore a couple minutes later.
                      > >>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>> Often I have to admit that some nonstandard usages of English that
                      > zing my fillings actually do express something that the standard forms
                      > might not.
                      > >>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>> Jamie
                      > >>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2013, at 9:44 AM, wustpisk wrote:
                      > >>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>> One thing I detest, and I have noticed it creeping insidiously
                      > more and more into the language via the media (largely of the Simon Cowell
                      > variety), is the apparently new verb 'to be liking'
                      > >>>>>>>> e.g. 'I am liking that' or, even more criminally, 'I am SO liking
                      > that', and so on. Such abominations generally warrant an immediate reach
                      > over to the 'off' button on the remote and a need to cleanse the mind of
                      > such impurities.
                      > >>>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                      > >>>>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>>> There are occasions when I would prefer start -ing over start
                      > to, but this may be just a personal stylistic thing. Normally I teach
                      > students that the two are pretty much interchangeable.
                      > >>>>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>>> He started playing the guitar when he was thirteen.
                      > >>>>>>>>> I prefer this form if the guitar-playing went on for some
                      > considerable time, e.g. if he is a famous guitarist today. If he were
                      > interrupted then I would prefer e.g. He picked up the guitar and started to
                      > play, but dad yelled from upstairs etc...
                      > >>>>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>>> You will have to start dealing with these situations yourself.
                      > >>>>>>>>> Here I would also avoid "to start to" just for reasons of
                      > euphony. Sounds a bit kinda jerky to me.
                      > >>>>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>>> But as I say, this is possibly just my idiolect.
                      > >>>>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>>> A note on like to/like ing
                      > >>>>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>>> If you want to stress enjoyment and pleasure then IMHO go for
                      > like -ing. If you think something is correct and proper then go for like
                      > to. Compare
                      > >>>>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>>> I like getting up at five in the morning and going for a
                      > ten-mile run (I am a bit weird and you should avoid getting into
                      > conversation with me if at all possible)
                      > >>>>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>>> I like to get up at five in the morning etc (e.g. I think one
                      > ought to, by Jove)
                      > >>>>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>>> I have come across this distinction in textbooks and elsewhere
                      > e.g.
                      > >>>>>>>>> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2161017
                      > >>>>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>>> but I am sure BrEng and USEng usage also differs and of course
                      > many would ignore all potential differences.
                      > >>>>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>>> More when I get a moment.
                      > >>>>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>>> BR
                      > >>>>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>>> Melvyn
                      > >>>>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
                      > >>>>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
                      > >>>>>>>> Czechlist@
                      > >>>>>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                      > >>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
                      > >>>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
                      > >>>>>>> Czechlist@
                      > >>>>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                      > >>>>>>>
                      > >>>>>>
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>> _______________________________________________
                      > >>> Czechlist mailing list
                      > >>> Czechlist@...
                      > >>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> _______________________________________________
                      > >> Czechlist mailing list
                      > >> Czechlist@...
                      > >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > > _______________________________________________
                      > > Czechlist mailing list
                      > > Czechlist@...
                      > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                      >
                      >
                      > _______________________________________________
                      > Czechlist mailing list
                      > Czechlist@...
                      > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                      >
                      _______________________________________________
                      Czechlist mailing list
                      Czechlist@...
                      http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                    • James Kirchner
                      This goes on on both sides of the ocean, and it s studied in linguistics courses as a classic example of hypercorrection . It means people try to talk so
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
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                        This goes on on both sides of the ocean, and it's studied in linguistics courses as a classic example of "hypercorrection". It means people try to talk so correctly that it's not correct anymore. They think using the subject form instead of the object form sounds more proper, probably because they've never been taught to reason it out. They're reacting to having been corrected when using "X and me" as the subject, and they then apply "and I" to both incorrect and correct incidences of "X and me".

                        The most interesting thing to watch is when a small child says it correctly and her mother miscorrects her. "Mommy, if you get bananas for Tommy and me..." "FOR TOMMY AND I!"

                        A few months ago I got reamed out for correcting someone's hypercorrection. A priest had said, "I felt bad about it," and someone blurted out, "I felt BADLY!" I quietly said, "He said it correctly," and I got my head bitten off by the elderly corrector and his sister. "YOU'RE WRONG! I'M A LAWYER! AND I WAS AN ENGLISH TEACHER!" People like this always slap you in the face with their credentials but never ask you yours. I later pointed out to the man that I taught graduate-level grammar classes to English teachers, so had I been a couple decades older, I'd likely have been his grammar prof.

                        Jamie

                        On Jul 9, 2013, at 12:45 PM, Hannah Geiger wrote:

                        > One change that I really do notice, at least across the pond, is the
                        > "between him and I", "they invited my husband and I" - it knows no
                        > socio-economic boundaries. I sometimes wonder how and when this came
                        > about.
                        >
                        > Hanka
                        >
                        > On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 12:38 PM, James Kirchner <jpklists@...>wrote:
                        >
                        >> I'm convinced that "I'm good" is not a veering away from proper English
                        >> (much as I hate it) but a return to the Nordic substrate, since people say
                        >> they're "god" in the Scandinavian languages.
                        >>
                        >> The issue is that if you say, "I'm fine," that may be an exaggeration, and
                        >> if you say, "I'm well," it means you're not sick. So it's always a little
                        >> off-kilter, unless you just ignore the question.
                        >>
                        >> Maybe we should just adopt the British "how do you do" custom of asking
                        >> the same question back. (That one really startled me the first time I saw
                        >> it in a British ESL book!)
                        >>
                        >> Jamie
                        >>
                        >> On Jul 9, 2013, at 12:26 PM, wustpisk wrote:
                        >>
                        >>> Yes - I encourage the use of 'awe-inspiring' instead, and then only
                        >> appropriately.
                        >>>
                        >>> While we're at it, another thing that gets my goat is another Cowellism,
                        >> to wit:
                        >>>
                        >>> - How are you?
                        >>> - I'm good, thanks
                        >>>
                        >>> The only proper response to this is of course:
                        >>> - I was enquiring after your health and well-being, I wasn't asking for
                        >> a moral opinion about yourself.
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Good for you! Twice this semester I've had to explain to my ESL class
                        >> that something commonly referred to as "awesome" is much less awesome than
                        >> the word originally implied. I have to get across that the word is
                        >> properly applied to God or the Grand Canyon or something, not socks or a
                        >> cigarette lighter.
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Just make sure the kid doesn't start calling everything "epic".
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Jamie
                        >>>>
                        >>>> On Jul 9, 2013, at 12:12 PM, wustpisk wrote:
                        >>>>
                        >>>>> My 8 year-old son has been weaned off using 'awesome' as he is docked
                        >> pocket money whenever he utters it.
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>> "So going to do sth" does strike me as very 21st century. So does
                        >> "like totally going to do sth". Perhaps I missed out on the valley girl
                        >> thing.
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>> My niece in Yorkshire now refers to us as "you guys". Whatever next?
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>> BR
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>> Melvyn
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@> wrote:
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> Come to think of it, 'to be loving sth.' (or maybe 'to be lovin'
                        >> sth.') is probably more common that 'to be liking sth.'
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> This is another one in the same vein:
                        >> http://pinterest.com/eschos/i-am-so-going-there/
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>> As Valerie pointed out, the -ing here can make it can sound more
                        >> vivid.
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>> We were discussing something similar some time ago.
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/29290
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>> BR
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>> Melvyn
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@>
                        >> wrote:
                        >>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>> It's annoying, but it does convey the reality that the person is
                        >> experiencing fleeting enjoyment from something that he may not enjoy
                        >> anymore a couple minutes later.
                        >>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>> Often I have to admit that some nonstandard usages of English that
                        >> zing my fillings actually do express something that the standard forms
                        >> might not.
                        >>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>> Jamie
                        >>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2013, at 9:44 AM, wustpisk wrote:
                        >>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>> One thing I detest, and I have noticed it creeping insidiously
                        >> more and more into the language via the media (largely of the Simon Cowell
                        >> variety), is the apparently new verb 'to be liking'
                        >>>>>>>>>> e.g. 'I am liking that' or, even more criminally, 'I am SO liking
                        >> that', and so on. Such abominations generally warrant an immediate reach
                        >> over to the 'off' button on the remote and a need to cleanse the mind of
                        >> such impurities.
                        >>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                        >>>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>> There are occasions when I would prefer start -ing over start
                        >> to, but this may be just a personal stylistic thing. Normally I teach
                        >> students that the two are pretty much interchangeable.
                        >>>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>> He started playing the guitar when he was thirteen.
                        >>>>>>>>>>> I prefer this form if the guitar-playing went on for some
                        >> considerable time, e.g. if he is a famous guitarist today. If he were
                        >> interrupted then I would prefer e.g. He picked up the guitar and started to
                        >> play, but dad yelled from upstairs etc...
                        >>>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>> You will have to start dealing with these situations yourself.
                        >>>>>>>>>>> Here I would also avoid "to start to" just for reasons of
                        >> euphony. Sounds a bit kinda jerky to me.
                        >>>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>> But as I say, this is possibly just my idiolect.
                        >>>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>> A note on like to/like ing
                        >>>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>> If you want to stress enjoyment and pleasure then IMHO go for
                        >> like -ing. If you think something is correct and proper then go for like
                        >> to. Compare
                        >>>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>> I like getting up at five in the morning and going for a
                        >> ten-mile run (I am a bit weird and you should avoid getting into
                        >> conversation with me if at all possible)
                        >>>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>> I like to get up at five in the morning etc (e.g. I think one
                        >> ought to, by Jove)
                        >>>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>> I have come across this distinction in textbooks and elsewhere
                        >> e.g.
                        >>>>>>>>>>> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2161017
                        >>>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>> but I am sure BrEng and USEng usage also differs and of course
                        >> many would ignore all potential differences.
                        >>>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>> More when I get a moment.
                        >>>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>> BR
                        >>>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>> Melvyn
                        >>>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
                        >>>>>>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
                        >>>>>>>>>> Czechlist@
                        >>>>>>>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                        >>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
                        >>>>>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
                        >>>>>>>>> Czechlist@
                        >>>>>>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                        >>>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> _______________________________________________
                        >>>>> Czechlist mailing list
                        >>>>> Czechlist@...
                        >>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>> _______________________________________________
                        >>>> Czechlist mailing list
                        >>>> Czechlist@...
                        >>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                        >>>>
                        >>>
                        >>> _______________________________________________
                        >>> Czechlist mailing list
                        >>> Czechlist@...
                        >>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> _______________________________________________
                        >> Czechlist mailing list
                        >> Czechlist@...
                        >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                        >>
                        > _______________________________________________
                        > Czechlist mailing list
                        > Czechlist@...
                        > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


                        _______________________________________________
                        Czechlist mailing list
                        Czechlist@...
                        http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                      • Melvyn
                        ... I used to reward/bribe my adult students with gumove medvidky for correctly using vocabulary from previous weeks lessons in their conversation. Not sure
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > My 8 year-old son has been weaned off using 'awesome' as he is docked pocket money whenever he utters it.

                          I used to reward/bribe my adult students with gumove medvidky for correctly using vocabulary from previous weeks' lessons in their conversation. Not sure if this would work for youngsters. Possible dental issues. I would probably be a lousy dad, actually.

                          BR

                          Melvyn
                        • Pilucha, Jiri
                          Did you know about xx? I totally didn t (overheard in LA) From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Melvyn Sent:
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            "Did you know about xx?"
                            "I totally didn't"
                            (overheard in LA)


                            From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Melvyn
                            Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 6:08 PM
                            To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [Czechlist] Re: 4 Changes to English So Subtle We Hardly Notice They're Happening



                            "So going to do sth" does strike me as very 21st century. So does "like totally going to do sth". Perhaps I missed out on the valley girl thing.

                            My niece in Yorkshire now refers to us as "you guys". Whatever next?

                            BR

                            Melvyn

                            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...<mailto:gerry.vickers@...>> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Come to think of it, 'to be loving sth.' (or maybe 'to be lovin' sth.') is probably more common that 'to be liking sth.'
                            >
                            > This is another one in the same vein: http://pinterest.com/eschos/i-am-so-going-there/
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > As Valerie pointed out, the -ing here can make it can sound more vivid.
                            > >
                            > > We were discussing something similar some time ago.
                            > >
                            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/29290
                            > >
                            > > BR
                            > >
                            > > Melvyn
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > It's annoying, but it does convey the reality that the person is experiencing fleeting enjoyment from something that he may not enjoy anymore a couple minutes later.
                            > > >
                            > > > Often I have to admit that some nonstandard usages of English that zing my fillings actually do express something that the standard forms might not.
                            > > >
                            > > > Jamie
                            > > >
                            > > > On Jul 9, 2013, at 9:44 AM, wustpisk wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > One thing I detest, and I have noticed it creeping insidiously more and more into the language via the media (largely of the Simon Cowell variety), is the apparently new verb 'to be liking'
                            > > > > e.g. 'I am liking that' or, even more criminally, 'I am SO liking that', and so on. Such abominations generally warrant an immediate reach over to the 'off' button on the remote and a need to cleanse the mind of such impurities.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >> There are occasions when I would prefer start -ing over start to, but this may be just a personal stylistic thing. Normally I teach students that the two are pretty much interchangeable.
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >> He started playing the guitar when he was thirteen.
                            > > > >> I prefer this form if the guitar-playing went on for some considerable time, e.g. if he is a famous guitarist today. If he were interrupted then I would prefer e.g. He picked up the guitar and started to play, but dad yelled from upstairs etc...
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >> You will have to start dealing with these situations yourself.
                            > > > >> Here I would also avoid "to start to" just for reasons of euphony. Sounds a bit kinda jerky to me.
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >> But as I say, this is possibly just my idiolect.
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >> A note on like to/like ing
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >> If you want to stress enjoyment and pleasure then IMHO go for like -ing. If you think something is correct and proper then go for like to. Compare
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >> I like getting up at five in the morning and going for a ten-mile run (I am a bit weird and you should avoid getting into conversation with me if at all possible)
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >> I like to get up at five in the morning etc (e.g. I think one ought to, by Jove)
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >> I have come across this distinction in textbooks and elsewhere e.g.
                            > > > >> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2161017
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >> but I am sure BrEng and USEng usage also differs and of course many would ignore all potential differences.
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >> More when I get a moment.
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >> BR
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >> Melvyn
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > _______________________________________________
                            > > > > Czechlist mailing list
                            > > > > Czechlist@
                            > > > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > _______________________________________________
                            > > > Czechlist mailing list
                            > > > Czechlist@
                            > > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • wustpisk
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              ... and I'm sure the phrase 'back in the day' was never used back in the day ...

                              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Pilucha, Jiri" <jiri.pilucha@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > "Did you know about xx?"
                              > "I totally didn't"
                              > (overheard in LA)
                              >
                              >
                              > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Melvyn
                              > Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 6:08 PM
                              > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: 4 Changes to English So Subtle We Hardly Notice They're Happening
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > "So going to do sth" does strike me as very 21st century. So does "like totally going to do sth". Perhaps I missed out on the valley girl thing.
                              >
                              > My niece in Yorkshire now refers to us as "you guys". Whatever next?
                              >
                              > BR
                              >
                              > Melvyn
                              >
                              > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@<mailto:gerry.vickers@>> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Come to think of it, 'to be loving sth.' (or maybe 'to be lovin' sth.') is probably more common that 'to be liking sth.'
                              > >
                              > > This is another one in the same vein: http://pinterest.com/eschos/i-am-so-going-there/
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > As Valerie pointed out, the -ing here can make it can sound more vivid.
                              > > >
                              > > > We were discussing something similar some time ago.
                              > > >
                              > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/29290
                              > > >
                              > > > BR
                              > > >
                              > > > Melvyn
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > It's annoying, but it does convey the reality that the person is experiencing fleeting enjoyment from something that he may not enjoy anymore a couple minutes later.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Often I have to admit that some nonstandard usages of English that zing my fillings actually do express something that the standard forms might not.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Jamie
                              > > > >
                              > > > > On Jul 9, 2013, at 9:44 AM, wustpisk wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > One thing I detest, and I have noticed it creeping insidiously more and more into the language via the media (largely of the Simon Cowell variety), is the apparently new verb 'to be liking'
                              > > > > > e.g. 'I am liking that' or, even more criminally, 'I am SO liking that', and so on. Such abominations generally warrant an immediate reach over to the 'off' button on the remote and a need to cleanse the mind of such impurities.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                              > > > > >>
                              > > > > >>
                              > > > > >>
                              > > > > >> There are occasions when I would prefer start -ing over start to, but this may be just a personal stylistic thing. Normally I teach students that the two are pretty much interchangeable.
                              > > > > >>
                              > > > > >>
                              > > > > >> He started playing the guitar when he was thirteen.
                              > > > > >> I prefer this form if the guitar-playing went on for some considerable time, e.g. if he is a famous guitarist today. If he were interrupted then I would prefer e.g. He picked up the guitar and started to play, but dad yelled from upstairs etc...
                              > > > > >>
                              > > > > >> You will have to start dealing with these situations yourself.
                              > > > > >> Here I would also avoid "to start to" just for reasons of euphony. Sounds a bit kinda jerky to me.
                              > > > > >>
                              > > > > >> But as I say, this is possibly just my idiolect.
                              > > > > >>
                              > > > > >> A note on like to/like ing
                              > > > > >>
                              > > > > >> If you want to stress enjoyment and pleasure then IMHO go for like -ing. If you think something is correct and proper then go for like to. Compare
                              > > > > >>
                              > > > > >> I like getting up at five in the morning and going for a ten-mile run (I am a bit weird and you should avoid getting into conversation with me if at all possible)
                              > > > > >>
                              > > > > >> I like to get up at five in the morning etc (e.g. I think one ought to, by Jove)
                              > > > > >>
                              > > > > >> I have come across this distinction in textbooks and elsewhere e.g.
                              > > > > >> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2161017
                              > > > > >>
                              > > > > >> but I am sure BrEng and USEng usage also differs and of course many would ignore all potential differences.
                              > > > > >>
                              > > > > >> More when I get a moment.
                              > > > > >>
                              > > > > >> BR
                              > > > > >>
                              > > > > >> Melvyn
                              > > > > >>
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > _______________________________________________
                              > > > > > Czechlist mailing list
                              > > > > > Czechlist@
                              > > > > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > _______________________________________________
                              > > > > Czechlist mailing list
                              > > > > Czechlist@
                              > > > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • Melvyn
                              Back in the day we all used to say most assuredly, definitely, utterly, completely, absolutely...and not...at all. Totally covers all that now. Totes magotes.
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Back in the day we all used to say most assuredly, definitely, utterly, completely, absolutely...and not...at all.

                                Totally covers all that now. Totes magotes.
                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4lex8dpmO8

                                BR

                                Melvyn

                                --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Pilucha, Jiri" <jiri.pilucha@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > "Did you know about xx?"
                                > "I totally didn't"
                                > (overheard in LA)
                                >
                                >
                                > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Melvyn
                                > Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 6:08 PM
                                > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: 4 Changes to English So Subtle We Hardly Notice They're Happening
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > "So going to do sth" does strike me as very 21st century. So does "like totally going to do sth". Perhaps I missed out on the valley girl thing.
                                >
                                > My niece in Yorkshire now refers to us as "you guys". Whatever next?
                                >
                                > BR
                                >
                                > Melvyn
                                >
                                > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@<mailto:gerry.vickers@>> wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Come to think of it, 'to be loving sth.' (or maybe 'to be lovin' sth.') is probably more common that 'to be liking sth.'
                                > >
                                > > This is another one in the same vein: http://pinterest.com/eschos/i-am-so-going-there/
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > As Valerie pointed out, the -ing here can make it can sound more vivid.
                                > > >
                                > > > We were discussing something similar some time ago.
                                > > >
                                > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/29290
                                > > >
                                > > > BR
                                > > >
                                > > > Melvyn
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > It's annoying, but it does convey the reality that the person is experiencing fleeting enjoyment from something that he may not enjoy anymore a couple minutes later.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Often I have to admit that some nonstandard usages of English that zing my fillings actually do express something that the standard forms might not.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Jamie
                                > > > >
                                > > > > On Jul 9, 2013, at 9:44 AM, wustpisk wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > One thing I detest, and I have noticed it creeping insidiously more and more into the language via the media (largely of the Simon Cowell variety), is the apparently new verb 'to be liking'
                                > > > > > e.g. 'I am liking that' or, even more criminally, 'I am SO liking that', and so on. Such abominations generally warrant an immediate reach over to the 'off' button on the remote and a need to cleanse the mind of such impurities.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> There are occasions when I would prefer start -ing over start to, but this may be just a personal stylistic thing. Normally I teach students that the two are pretty much interchangeable.
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> He started playing the guitar when he was thirteen.
                                > > > > >> I prefer this form if the guitar-playing went on for some considerable time, e.g. if he is a famous guitarist today. If he were interrupted then I would prefer e.g. He picked up the guitar and started to play, but dad yelled from upstairs etc...
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> You will have to start dealing with these situations yourself.
                                > > > > >> Here I would also avoid "to start to" just for reasons of euphony. Sounds a bit kinda jerky to me.
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> But as I say, this is possibly just my idiolect.
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> A note on like to/like ing
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> If you want to stress enjoyment and pleasure then IMHO go for like -ing. If you think something is correct and proper then go for like to. Compare
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> I like getting up at five in the morning and going for a ten-mile run (I am a bit weird and you should avoid getting into conversation with me if at all possible)
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> I like to get up at five in the morning etc (e.g. I think one ought to, by Jove)
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> I have come across this distinction in textbooks and elsewhere e.g.
                                > > > > >> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2161017
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> but I am sure BrEng and USEng usage also differs and of course many would ignore all potential differences.
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> More when I get a moment.
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> BR
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >> Melvyn
                                > > > > >>
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > _______________________________________________
                                > > > > > Czechlist mailing list
                                > > > > > Czechlist@
                                > > > > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > _______________________________________________
                                > > > > Czechlist mailing list
                                > > > > Czechlist@
                                > > > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
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