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Re: [Czechlist] "tried-and-..."

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  • James Kirchner
    Then obviously I was distracted by Gerry s finger-wagging myself. JK ... _______________________________________________ Czechlist mailing list
    Message 1 of 32 , Jun 24, 2013
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      Then obviously I was distracted by Gerry's finger-wagging myself.

      JK

      On Jun 24, 2013, at 2:28 AM, Sarka Rubkova wrote:

      > Three did
      >
      >
      >
      > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      > Of James Kirchner
      > Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 3:20 PM
      > To: czechlist@...
      > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "tried-and-..."
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Anyway, this thread has been sidetracked, because my original request was
      > not that people affirm my dislike for the expression "tried-and-tested" (I
      > didn't expect them to) but that people suggest synonyms for it that don't
      > involve "tried-and..."
      >
      > People on the list so like to be revolted by my revulsion that only one
      > person, if I remember correctly, even suggested an equivalent.
      >
      > Jamie
      >
      > On Jun 23, 2013, at 9:09 AM, Dagmar wrote:
      >
      >>
      >> James, I beg to differ. In UK English the term tried and tested implies
      > precisely that the method or whatever has been successfully proven to work,
      > which means that in Czech the verb has to carry the same connotation i.e.
      > prefix: vyzkouseny, overeny, presto any etc. Tested on its own is a
      > different thing and there you would be correct, but not in the idiomatic
      > expression under discussion. Tried and true is to my knowledge not used here
      > in the UK
      >> Dagmar
      >> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> ,
      > "Sarka Rubkova" <sarka@...> wrote:
      >>>
      >>> You did not care to read my posting correctly. Please do it and then you
      > can
      >>> reply to what I really said
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> Sarka
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      > [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
      > Behalf
      >>> Of James Kirchner
      >>> Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:43 AM
      >>> To: czechlist@...
      >>> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "tried-and-..."
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> Sarka, the other native speakers (the UK ones) don't seem to have a
      > problem
      >>> with the exact term "tried-and-tested", so that is my objection.
      >>>
      >>> However, my observation that the word "test" is not equivalent to the
      > word
      >>> "vyzkouseny" is accurate, and so is my observation that "tested" does not
      >>> mean "nekdo to vyzkousil, a slo", in your words. You can verify that by
      >>> looking the verb up in a Merriam-Webster dictionary or a UK edition of an
      >>> Oxford dictionary. According to the definitions of "test" in those, the
      >>> meaning is "nekdo to vyzkousil", and there is no indication that "to
      > slo".
      >>> The addition of "to slo" is a misperception based on somewhat
      > inaccurately
      >>> mismatching "test" with "vyzkousit", which are only partially equivalent.
      >>> Look the words up, and you'll see.
      >>>
      >>> Jamie
      >>>
      >>> On Jun 22, 2013, at 8:15 PM, Sarka Rubkova wrote:
      >>>
      >>>> It seems to me that you perceive the meaning differently than other
      > native
      >>>> speakers who do not have such problem with these two words together.
      > Your
      >>>> objections have more less personal nature and I would not consider them
      > so
      >>>> general as you present them
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>> sarka
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>> [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
      >>> Behalf
      >>>> Of James Kirchner
      >>>> Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2013 2:16 PM
      >>>> To: czechlist@... <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "tried-and-..."
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>> "Vyzkouseny" has a sense of completeness to it (probably because of the
      >>>> prefix "vy-"), but "tested" doesn't have that sense. "Tested" does not
      >>> have
      >>>> to mean that there was a favorable result to the test. It just means
      >>>> something was tested and says nothing about the result. ("We tested it,
      >>> and
      >>>> it fell apart." "This is where we put the tested parts that failed.")
      > This
      >>>> is why "tried-and-tested" is tautological.
      >>>>
      >>>> Another reason is that "tested" doesn't mean it underwent anything
      >>>> "oficialni" or "podnikove". You can see this on the containers that
      >>> cleaners
      >>>> come in, where it says, "Test it on an inconspicuous place on the
      >>> material,"
      >>>> to make sure it doesn't damage the surface it's supposed to clean. There
      >>> are
      >>>> similar statements on other instructions. They indicate that a regular
      >>>> person is supposed to "zkusit" something at home under uncontrolled
      >>>> conditions. A teenage girl may "test her attractiveness" on boys at
      >>> school,
      >>>> or two men may "test their strength" against each other by arm
      > wrestling.
      >>>> "Test" does not have to be "oficialni" or "podnikove", and I would
      >>> estimate
      >>>> that in most usages it is not.
      >>>>
      >>>> I think there are two confusing things here that make interpretation of
      >>> the
      >>>> word prone to interference from Czech:
      >>>>
      >>>> 1. Czech uses perfective forms that imply completion and some result.
      > The
      >>>> word "test" does not necessarily imply completion or a result.
      >>>>
      >>>> 2. Czech has native and foreign synonyms here, and the foreign synonym
      > (as
      >>>> in English) is more likely to be used for something official. In
      > English,
      >>>> "test" is used in as many or more informal contexts than official ones.
      >>>>
      >>>> Jamie
      >>>>
      >>>> On Jun 22, 2013, at 5:23 AM, Sarka Rubkova wrote:
      >>>>
      >>>>> Proste nechapu proc tried and tested nedava smysl. Podle mne tato slova
      >>>> maji odlisny vyznam. Tried je neco jako vyzkouseny (ve smyslu vyzkouseny
      >>>> postup) - nekdo to vyzkousel (zkusil), a slo. Tested podle znamena
      > nejake
      >>>> oficialni nebo podnikove testy s prokazatelnymi vysledky.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Tak v cem je problem?
      >>>>>
      >>>>> sarka
      >>>>>
      >>>>> -----Original Message-----
      >>>>> From: czechlist-bounces@...
      >>> <mailto:czechlist-bounces%40czechlist.org>
      >>>> <mailto:czechlist-bounces%40czechlist.org>
      >>>> [mailto:czechlist-bounces@...
      >>> <mailto:czechlist-bounces%40czechlist.org>
      >>>> <mailto:czechlist-bounces%40czechlist.org> ] On Behalf Of James Kirchner
      >
      >>>>> Sent: Friday, June 21, 2013 1:49 PM
      >>>>> To: czechlist@... <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>> <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>>> Subject: Re: [Czechlist]"tried-and-..."
      >>>>>
      >>>>> I've never heard "tried and trusted", but it makes perfect sense,
      > unlike
      >>>> "tried and tested".
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Thanks very much.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Jamie
      >>>>>
      >>>>> On Jun 21, 2013, at 2:15 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
      >>>>>
      >>>>>> If 'tried and tested' is too much of a tautology for you and 'tried
      >>>>>> and true' too American for the client, what about
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> "Tried and trusted"?
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> That seems to tick all the boxes:
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/tried%2Band%2Btested%
      > <http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/tried%2Band%2Btested%25>
      >>>
      > <http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/tried%2Band%2Btested%25>
      >>>>
      > <http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/tried%2Band%2Btested%25>
      >>>
      >>>>>> 2Bor%2Btried%2Band%2Btrusted%2Bor%2Bnorth%2Bamerican%2Btried%2Band%2Bt
      >>>>>> rue___1
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> M
      >>>>>> ------ Original Message ------
      >>>>>> From: "James Kirchner" <czechlist@...
      >>> <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>> <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org> >
      >>>>>> To: czechlist@... <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>> <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>>>> Sent: 21.6.2013 5:56:14
      >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "tried-and-..."
      >>>>>>> Attested or not, the term sounds so stupid to me that I want to avoid
      >
      >>>>>>> it.
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> I have clients wanting Germlish or Czenglish, but I don't give it to
      >>>>>>> them. The best thing is just to use another term. The only reason he
      >>>>>>> got this "tried-and-..." bug in his rear end is that I used the term
      >>>>>>> "tried-and-true". If I hadn't chosen that term, he'd never have
      >>>>>>> thought about it, so I see nothing wrong with using a completely
      >>>>>>> different sort of term that neither one of us will complain about.
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> Jamie
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 10:24 PM, wustpisk wrote:
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> Nothing wrong with tried and tested, IMO
      >>>>>>>> http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/tried+and+tested.html
      >>>>>>>> http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/tried+and+tested
      >>>>>>>> http://www.businesstraveller.com/tried-and-tested
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> If that is what the customer wants, let him have it, after all koho
      >>>>>>> chleba jis, toho pisen zpivej ...
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>> <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> ,
      >>>> James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> Let me pick people's brains, please.
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> In North America, we use an expression "tried-and-true", meaning
      >>>>>>> that something has gone through repeated use and testing and has
      >>>>>>> shown itself to do what it's supposed to.
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> "a tried-and-true method"
      >>>>>>>>> "a tried-and-true solution"
      >>>>>>>>> "a tried-and-true device"
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> A client of a client of mine (a non-native English speaker) hates
      >>>>>>> this expression for some reason, and wants me to say
      >>>>>>> "tried-and-tested". To me, "tried-and-tested" sounds like
      >>>>>>> tautological nonsense, as if people keep trying something and testing
      >
      >>>>>>> it but still can't tell if works.
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> I'm looking for synonyms so that I don't have to use either of
      >>>>>>> these "tried-and-..." expressions. Then neither the client's client
      >>>>>>> or I will have anything to complain about.
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> The only synonym I can think of right now is "proven" (a proven
      >>>>>>> method, a proven machine, a proven device, etc.).
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> Can anyone think of other synonyms?
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> Jamie
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
      >>>>>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
      >>>>>>>>> Czechlist@
      >>>>>>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
      >>>>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
      >>>>>>>> Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>> <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>>>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
      >>>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
      >>>>>>> Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>> <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> _______________________________________________
      >>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
      >>>>>> Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>> <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>> _______________________________________________
      >>>>> Czechlist mailing list
      >>>>> Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>> <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>> _______________________________________________
      >>>>> Czechlist mailing list
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      >>> <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>>>
      >>>> _______________________________________________
      >>>> Czechlist mailing list
      >>>> Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>> <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>>
      >>>> _______________________________________________
      >>>> Czechlist mailing list
      >>>> Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>>
      >>> _______________________________________________
      >>> Czechlist mailing list
      >>> Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>
      >>
      >>
      >> _______________________________________________
      >> Czechlist mailing list
      >> Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > Czechlist mailing list
      > Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > _______________________________________________
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      > Czechlist@...
      > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


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    • James Kirchner
      Some of this doesn t make any sense. What is qrowed ? The phrased realised on the test is almost certainly foreigner English. Jamie ...
      Message 32 of 32 , Jun 24, 2013
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        Some of this doesn't make any sense.

        What is "qrowed"?

        The phrased "realised on the test" is almost certainly foreigner English.

        Jamie

        On Jun 24, 2013, at 11:40 AM, Milan wrote:

        > Pohled do 3 prekladovych pameti, CS-EN nabizi nekolik prekladu "vyzkousen"
        >
        > 1. video-titulky, 11.836.569 segmentu
        >
        > "vyzkousen" 109 x
        >
        > en: tested, proven, checked, had done, tried, (quizzed), qrowed,
        >
        > 2. DGT 2011, 1.884.470 segmentu
        >
        > "vyzkousen" 44 x
        >
        > en: tested, tried, proven, is realised on the test,
        >
        > 3. EMEA, 335.516 segmentu
        >
        > "vyzkousen" 15 x
        >
        > en: has been studied, has been proven, approved, is proven, tested
        >
        > Lehce zkouseny nic nenapsat,
        >
        > Milan
        >
        >
        > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > _______________________________________________
        > Czechlist mailing list
        > Czechlist@...
        > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


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