Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Czechlist] "tried-and-..."

Expand Messages
  • James Kirchner
    But look at the dictionary definitions of the two words. Your understanding of them doesn t conform to what the words mean according to Oxford and
    Message 1 of 32 , Jun 23, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      But look at the dictionary definitions of the two words. Your understanding of them doesn't conform to what the words mean according to Oxford and Merriam-Webster. You have a Czech understanding of them.

      Jamie

      On Jun 23, 2013, at 11:34 AM, Sarka Rubkova wrote:

      > Molna, ale mam na mysli tohle:
      >
      >
      >
      > Tried je neco jako vyzkouseny (ve smyslu vyzkouseny postup) - nekdo to
      > vyzkousel (zkusil), a slo. Tested podle znamena nejake oficialni nebo
      > podnikove testy s prokazatelnymi vysledky.
      >
      >
      >
      > sarka
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      > Of James Kirchner
      > Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:41 PM
      > To: czechlist@...
      > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "tried-and-..."
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > I did read your post thoroughly, Sarka, but your phrase "and I would not
      > consider them so general as you present them" does not make sense in
      > English, and I had to guess at its meaning.
      >
      > Jamie
      >
      > On Jun 23, 2013, at 3:54 AM, Sarka Rubkova wrote:
      >
      >> You did not care to read my posting correctly. Please do it and then you
      > can
      >> reply to what I really said
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Sarka
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      > [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
      > Behalf
      >> Of James Kirchner
      >> Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:43 AM
      >> To: czechlist@... <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "tried-and-..."
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Sarka, the other native speakers (the UK ones) don't seem to have a
      > problem
      >> with the exact term "tried-and-tested", so that is my objection.
      >>
      >> However, my observation that the word "test" is not equivalent to the word
      >> "vyzkouseny" is accurate, and so is my observation that "tested" does not
      >> mean "nekdo to vyzkousil, a slo", in your words. You can verify that by
      >> looking the verb up in a Merriam-Webster dictionary or a UK edition of an
      >> Oxford dictionary. According to the definitions of "test" in those, the
      >> meaning is "nekdo to vyzkousil", and there is no indication that "to slo".
      >> The addition of "to slo" is a misperception based on somewhat inaccurately
      >> mismatching "test" with "vyzkousit", which are only partially equivalent.
      >> Look the words up, and you'll see.
      >>
      >> Jamie
      >>
      >> On Jun 22, 2013, at 8:15 PM, Sarka Rubkova wrote:
      >>
      >>> It seems to me that you perceive the meaning differently than other
      > native
      >>> speakers who do not have such problem with these two words together. Your
      >>> objections have more less personal nature and I would not consider them
      > so
      >>> general as you present them
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> sarka
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
      >> Behalf
      >>> Of James Kirchner
      >>> Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2013 2:16 PM
      >>> To: czechlist@... <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      > <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "tried-and-..."
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> "Vyzkouseny" has a sense of completeness to it (probably because of the
      >>> prefix "vy-"), but "tested" doesn't have that sense. "Tested" does not
      >> have
      >>> to mean that there was a favorable result to the test. It just means
      >>> something was tested and says nothing about the result. ("We tested it,
      >> and
      >>> it fell apart." "This is where we put the tested parts that failed.")
      > This
      >>> is why "tried-and-tested" is tautological.
      >>>
      >>> Another reason is that "tested" doesn't mean it underwent anything
      >>> "oficialni" or "podnikove". You can see this on the containers that
      >> cleaners
      >>> come in, where it says, "Test it on an inconspicuous place on the
      >> material,"
      >>> to make sure it doesn't damage the surface it's supposed to clean. There
      >> are
      >>> similar statements on other instructions. They indicate that a regular
      >>> person is supposed to "zkusit" something at home under uncontrolled
      >>> conditions. A teenage girl may "test her attractiveness" on boys at
      >> school,
      >>> or two men may "test their strength" against each other by arm wrestling.
      >>> "Test" does not have to be "oficialni" or "podnikove", and I would
      >> estimate
      >>> that in most usages it is not.
      >>>
      >>> I think there are two confusing things here that make interpretation of
      >> the
      >>> word prone to interference from Czech:
      >>>
      >>> 1. Czech uses perfective forms that imply completion and some result. The
      >>> word "test" does not necessarily imply completion or a result.
      >>>
      >>> 2. Czech has native and foreign synonyms here, and the foreign synonym
      > (as
      >>> in English) is more likely to be used for something official. In English,
      >>> "test" is used in as many or more informal contexts than official ones.
      >>>
      >>> Jamie
      >>>
      >>> On Jun 22, 2013, at 5:23 AM, Sarka Rubkova wrote:
      >>>
      >>>> Proste nechapu proc tried and tested nedava smysl. Podle mne tato slova
      >>> maji odlisny vyznam. Tried je neco jako vyzkouseny (ve smyslu vyzkouseny
      >>> postup) - nekdo to vyzkousel (zkusil), a slo. Tested podle znamena nejake
      >>> oficialni nebo podnikove testy s prokazatelnymi vysledky.
      >>>>
      >>>> Tak v cem je problem?
      >>>>
      >>>> sarka
      >>>>
      >>>> -----Original Message-----
      >>>> From: czechlist-bounces@...
      > <mailto:czechlist-bounces%40czechlist.org>
      >> <mailto:czechlist-bounces%40czechlist.org>
      >>> <mailto:czechlist-bounces%40czechlist.org>
      >>> [mailto:czechlist-bounces@...
      > <mailto:czechlist-bounces%40czechlist.org>
      >> <mailto:czechlist-bounces%40czechlist.org>
      >>> <mailto:czechlist-bounces%40czechlist.org> ] On Behalf Of James Kirchner
      >>>> Sent: Friday, June 21, 2013 1:49 PM
      >>>> To: czechlist@... <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      > <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >> <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>> Subject: Re: [Czechlist]"tried-and-..."
      >>>>
      >>>> I've never heard "tried and trusted", but it makes perfect sense, unlike
      >>> "tried and tested".
      >>>>
      >>>> Thanks very much.
      >>>>
      >>>> Jamie
      >>>>
      >>>> On Jun 21, 2013, at 2:15 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
      >>>>
      >>>>> If 'tried and tested' is too much of a tautology for you and 'tried
      >>>>> and true' too American for the client, what about
      >>>>>
      >>>>> "Tried and trusted"?
      >>>>>
      >>>>> That seems to tick all the boxes:
      >>>>>
      >>>>> http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/tried%2Band%2Btested%
      > <http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/tried%2Band%2Btested%25>
      >> <http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/tried%2Band%2Btested%25>
      >
      >>>
      > <http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/tried%2Band%2Btested%25>
      >>
      >>>>> 2Bor%2Btried%2Band%2Btrusted%2Bor%2Bnorth%2Bamerican%2Btried%2Band%2Bt
      >>>>> rue___1
      >>>>>
      >>>>> M
      >>>>> ------ Original Message ------
      >>>>> From: "James Kirchner" <czechlist@...
      > <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >> <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>> <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org> >
      >>>>> To: czechlist@... <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      > <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >> <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>>> Sent: 21.6.2013 5:56:14
      >>>>> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "tried-and-..."
      >>>>>> Attested or not, the term sounds so stupid to me that I want to avoid
      >>>>>> it.
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> I have clients wanting Germlish or Czenglish, but I don't give it to
      >>>>>> them. The best thing is just to use another term. The only reason he
      >>>>>> got this "tried-and-..." bug in his rear end is that I used the term
      >>>>>> "tried-and-true". If I hadn't chosen that term, he'd never have
      >>>>>> thought about it, so I see nothing wrong with using a completely
      >>>>>> different sort of term that neither one of us will complain about.
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> Jamie
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 10:24 PM, wustpisk wrote:
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>> Nothing wrong with tried and tested, IMO
      >>>>>>> http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/tried+and+tested.html
      >>>>>>> http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/tried+and+tested
      >>>>>>> http://www.businesstraveller.com/tried-and-tested
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> If that is what the customer wants, let him have it, after all koho
      >>>>>> chleba jis, toho pisen zpivej ...
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> ,
      >>> James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> Let me pick people's brains, please.
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> In North America, we use an expression "tried-and-true", meaning
      >>>>>> that something has gone through repeated use and testing and has
      >>>>>> shown itself to do what it's supposed to.
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> "a tried-and-true method"
      >>>>>>>> "a tried-and-true solution"
      >>>>>>>> "a tried-and-true device"
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> A client of a client of mine (a non-native English speaker) hates
      >>>>>> this expression for some reason, and wants me to say
      >>>>>> "tried-and-tested". To me, "tried-and-tested" sounds like
      >>>>>> tautological nonsense, as if people keep trying something and testing
      >>>>>> it but still can't tell if works.
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> I'm looking for synonyms so that I don't have to use either of
      >>>>>> these "tried-and-..." expressions. Then neither the client's client
      >>>>>> or I will have anything to complain about.
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> The only synonym I can think of right now is "proven" (a proven
      >>>>>> method, a proven machine, a proven device, etc.).
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> Can anyone think of other synonyms?
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> Jamie
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
      >>>>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
      >>>>>>>> Czechlist@...
      >>>>>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
      >>>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
      >>>>>>> Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      > <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >> <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> _______________________________________________
      >>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
      >>>>>> Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      > <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >> <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>>>
      >>>>> _______________________________________________
      >>>>> Czechlist mailing list
      >>>>> Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      > <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >> <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>> _______________________________________________
      >>>> Czechlist mailing list
      >>>> Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      > <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >> <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>> _______________________________________________
      >>>> Czechlist mailing list
      >>>> Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      > <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >> <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>>
      >>> _______________________________________________
      >>> Czechlist mailing list
      >>> Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      > <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >> <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>
      >>> _______________________________________________
      >>> Czechlist mailing list
      >>> Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      > <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>
      >> _______________________________________________
      >> Czechlist mailing list
      >> Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      > <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >> _______________________________________________
      >> Czechlist mailing list
      >> Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > Czechlist mailing list
      > Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > Czechlist mailing list
      > Czechlist@...
      > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


      _______________________________________________
      Czechlist mailing list
      Czechlist@...
      http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
    • James Kirchner
      Some of this doesn t make any sense. What is qrowed ? The phrased realised on the test is almost certainly foreigner English. Jamie ...
      Message 32 of 32 , Jun 24, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Some of this doesn't make any sense.

        What is "qrowed"?

        The phrased "realised on the test" is almost certainly foreigner English.

        Jamie

        On Jun 24, 2013, at 11:40 AM, Milan wrote:

        > Pohled do 3 prekladovych pameti, CS-EN nabizi nekolik prekladu "vyzkousen"
        >
        > 1. video-titulky, 11.836.569 segmentu
        >
        > "vyzkousen" 109 x
        >
        > en: tested, proven, checked, had done, tried, (quizzed), qrowed,
        >
        > 2. DGT 2011, 1.884.470 segmentu
        >
        > "vyzkousen" 44 x
        >
        > en: tested, tried, proven, is realised on the test,
        >
        > 3. EMEA, 335.516 segmentu
        >
        > "vyzkousen" 15 x
        >
        > en: has been studied, has been proven, approved, is proven, tested
        >
        > Lehce zkouseny nic nenapsat,
        >
        > Milan
        >
        >
        > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > _______________________________________________
        > Czechlist mailing list
        > Czechlist@...
        > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


        _______________________________________________
        Czechlist mailing list
        Czechlist@...
        http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.