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RE: [Czechlist] "tried-and-..."

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  • Sarka Rubkova
    Mo¾ná, ale mám na mysli tohle: Tried je neco jako vyzkouseny (ve smyslu vyzkouseny postup) - nekdo to vyzkousel (zkusil), a slo. Tested podle znamena nejake
    Message 1 of 32 , Jun 23, 2013
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      Mo�n�, ale m�m na mysli tohle:



      Tried je neco jako vyzkouseny (ve smyslu vyzkouseny postup) - nekdo to
      vyzkousel (zkusil), a slo. Tested podle znamena nejake oficialni nebo
      podnikove testy s prokazatelnymi vysledky.



      sarka





      From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of James Kirchner
      Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:41 PM
      To: czechlist@...
      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "tried-and-..."





      I did read your post thoroughly, Sarka, but your phrase "and I would not
      consider them so general as you present them" does not make sense in
      English, and I had to guess at its meaning.

      Jamie

      On Jun 23, 2013, at 3:54 AM, Sarka Rubkova wrote:

      > You did not care to read my posting correctly. Please do it and then you
      can
      > reply to what I really said
      >
      >
      >
      > Sarka
      >
      >
      >
      > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
      Behalf
      > Of James Kirchner
      > Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:43 AM
      > To: czechlist@... <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "tried-and-..."
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Sarka, the other native speakers (the UK ones) don't seem to have a
      problem
      > with the exact term "tried-and-tested", so that is my objection.
      >
      > However, my observation that the word "test" is not equivalent to the word
      > "vyzkouseny" is accurate, and so is my observation that "tested" does not
      > mean "nekdo to vyzkousil, a slo", in your words. You can verify that by
      > looking the verb up in a Merriam-Webster dictionary or a UK edition of an
      > Oxford dictionary. According to the definitions of "test" in those, the
      > meaning is "nekdo to vyzkousil", and there is no indication that "to slo".
      > The addition of "to slo" is a misperception based on somewhat inaccurately
      > mismatching "test" with "vyzkousit", which are only partially equivalent.
      > Look the words up, and you'll see.
      >
      > Jamie
      >
      > On Jun 22, 2013, at 8:15 PM, Sarka Rubkova wrote:
      >
      >> It seems to me that you perceive the meaning differently than other
      native
      >> speakers who do not have such problem with these two words together. Your
      >> objections have more less personal nature and I would not consider them
      so
      >> general as you present them
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> sarka
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      > [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
      > Behalf
      >> Of James Kirchner
      >> Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2013 2:16 PM
      >> To: czechlist@... <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "tried-and-..."
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> "Vyzkouseny" has a sense of completeness to it (probably because of the
      >> prefix "vy-"), but "tested" doesn't have that sense. "Tested" does not
      > have
      >> to mean that there was a favorable result to the test. It just means
      >> something was tested and says nothing about the result. ("We tested it,
      > and
      >> it fell apart." "This is where we put the tested parts that failed.")
      This
      >> is why "tried-and-tested" is tautological.
      >>
      >> Another reason is that "tested" doesn't mean it underwent anything
      >> "oficialni" or "podnikove". You can see this on the containers that
      > cleaners
      >> come in, where it says, "Test it on an inconspicuous place on the
      > material,"
      >> to make sure it doesn't damage the surface it's supposed to clean. There
      > are
      >> similar statements on other instructions. They indicate that a regular
      >> person is supposed to "zkusit" something at home under uncontrolled
      >> conditions. A teenage girl may "test her attractiveness" on boys at
      > school,
      >> or two men may "test their strength" against each other by arm wrestling.
      >> "Test" does not have to be "oficialni" or "podnikove", and I would
      > estimate
      >> that in most usages it is not.
      >>
      >> I think there are two confusing things here that make interpretation of
      > the
      >> word prone to interference from Czech:
      >>
      >> 1. Czech uses perfective forms that imply completion and some result. The
      >> word "test" does not necessarily imply completion or a result.
      >>
      >> 2. Czech has native and foreign synonyms here, and the foreign synonym
      (as
      >> in English) is more likely to be used for something official. In English,
      >> "test" is used in as many or more informal contexts than official ones.
      >>
      >> Jamie
      >>
      >> On Jun 22, 2013, at 5:23 AM, Sarka Rubkova wrote:
      >>
      >>> Proste nechapu proc tried and tested nedava smysl. Podle mne tato slova
      >> maji odlisny vyznam. Tried je neco jako vyzkouseny (ve smyslu vyzkouseny
      >> postup) - nekdo to vyzkousel (zkusil), a slo. Tested podle znamena nejake
      >> oficialni nebo podnikove testy s prokazatelnymi vysledky.
      >>>
      >>> Tak v cem je problem?
      >>>
      >>> sarka
      >>>
      >>> -----Original Message-----
      >>> From: czechlist-bounces@...
      <mailto:czechlist-bounces%40czechlist.org>
      > <mailto:czechlist-bounces%40czechlist.org>
      >> <mailto:czechlist-bounces%40czechlist.org>
      >> [mailto:czechlist-bounces@...
      <mailto:czechlist-bounces%40czechlist.org>
      > <mailto:czechlist-bounces%40czechlist.org>
      >> <mailto:czechlist-bounces%40czechlist.org> ] On Behalf Of James Kirchner
      >>> Sent: Friday, June 21, 2013 1:49 PM
      >>> To: czechlist@... <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      > <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>> Subject: Re: [Czechlist]"tried-and-..."
      >>>
      >>> I've never heard "tried and trusted", but it makes perfect sense, unlike
      >> "tried and tested".
      >>>
      >>> Thanks very much.
      >>>
      >>> Jamie
      >>>
      >>> On Jun 21, 2013, at 2:15 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
      >>>
      >>>> If 'tried and tested' is too much of a tautology for you and 'tried
      >>>> and true' too American for the client, what about
      >>>>
      >>>> "Tried and trusted"?
      >>>>
      >>>> That seems to tick all the boxes:
      >>>>
      >>>> http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/tried%2Band%2Btested%
      <http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/tried%2Band%2Btested%25>
      > <http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/tried%2Band%2Btested%25>

      >>
      <http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/tried%2Band%2Btested%25>
      >
      >>>> 2Bor%2Btried%2Band%2Btrusted%2Bor%2Bnorth%2Bamerican%2Btried%2Band%2Bt
      >>>> rue___1
      >>>>
      >>>> M
      >>>> ------ Original Message ------
      >>>> From: "James Kirchner" <czechlist@...
      <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      > <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >> <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org> >
      >>>> To: czechlist@... <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      > <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>> Sent: 21.6.2013 5:56:14
      >>>> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "tried-and-..."
      >>>>> Attested or not, the term sounds so stupid to me that I want to avoid
      >>>>> it.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> I have clients wanting Germlish or Czenglish, but I don't give it to
      >>>>> them. The best thing is just to use another term. The only reason he
      >>>>> got this "tried-and-..." bug in his rear end is that I used the term
      >>>>> "tried-and-true". If I hadn't chosen that term, he'd never have
      >>>>> thought about it, so I see nothing wrong with using a completely
      >>>>> different sort of term that neither one of us will complain about.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Jamie
      >>>>>
      >>>>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 10:24 PM, wustpisk wrote:
      >>>>>
      >>>>>> Nothing wrong with tried and tested, IMO
      >>>>>> http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/tried+and+tested.html
      >>>>>> http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/tried+and+tested
      >>>>>> http://www.businesstraveller.com/tried-and-tested
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> If that is what the customer wants, let him have it, after all koho
      >>>>> chleba jis, toho pisen zpivej ...
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> ,
      >> James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> Let me pick people's brains, please.
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> In North America, we use an expression "tried-and-true", meaning
      >>>>> that something has gone through repeated use and testing and has
      >>>>> shown itself to do what it's supposed to.
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> "a tried-and-true method"
      >>>>>>> "a tried-and-true solution"
      >>>>>>> "a tried-and-true device"
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> A client of a client of mine (a non-native English speaker) hates
      >>>>> this expression for some reason, and wants me to say
      >>>>> "tried-and-tested". To me, "tried-and-tested" sounds like
      >>>>> tautological nonsense, as if people keep trying something and testing
      >>>>> it but still can't tell if works.
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> I'm looking for synonyms so that I don't have to use either of
      >>>>> these "tried-and-..." expressions. Then neither the client's client
      >>>>> or I will have anything to complain about.
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> The only synonym I can think of right now is "proven" (a proven
      >>>>> method, a proven machine, a proven device, etc.).
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> Can anyone think of other synonyms?
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> Jamie
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
      >>>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
      >>>>>>> Czechlist@...
      >>>>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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      <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      > <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>>>>
      >>>>> _______________________________________________
      >>>>> Czechlist mailing list
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      <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      > <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>>
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      >>>
      >>>
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      >>>
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      >>
      >> _______________________________________________
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      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
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      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • James Kirchner
      Some of this doesn t make any sense. What is qrowed ? The phrased realised on the test is almost certainly foreigner English. Jamie ...
      Message 32 of 32 , Jun 24, 2013
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        Some of this doesn't make any sense.

        What is "qrowed"?

        The phrased "realised on the test" is almost certainly foreigner English.

        Jamie

        On Jun 24, 2013, at 11:40 AM, Milan wrote:

        > Pohled do 3 prekladovych pameti, CS-EN nabizi nekolik prekladu "vyzkousen"
        >
        > 1. video-titulky, 11.836.569 segmentu
        >
        > "vyzkousen" 109 x
        >
        > en: tested, proven, checked, had done, tried, (quizzed), qrowed,
        >
        > 2. DGT 2011, 1.884.470 segmentu
        >
        > "vyzkousen" 44 x
        >
        > en: tested, tried, proven, is realised on the test,
        >
        > 3. EMEA, 335.516 segmentu
        >
        > "vyzkousen" 15 x
        >
        > en: has been studied, has been proven, approved, is proven, tested
        >
        > Lehce zkouseny nic nenapsat,
        >
        > Milan
        >
        >
        > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > _______________________________________________
        > Czechlist mailing list
        > Czechlist@...
        > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


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