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Re: [Czechlist] "tried-and-..."

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  • James Kirchner
    Anyway, this thread has been sidetracked, because my original request was not that people affirm my dislike for the expression tried-and-tested (I didn t
    Message 1 of 32 , Jun 23, 2013
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      Anyway, this thread has been sidetracked, because my original request was not that people affirm my dislike for the expression "tried-and-tested" (I didn't expect them to) but that people suggest synonyms for it that don't involve "tried-and..."

      People on the list so like to be revolted by my revulsion that only one person, if I remember correctly, even suggested an equivalent.

      Jamie

      On Jun 23, 2013, at 9:09 AM, Dagmar wrote:

      >
      > James, I beg to differ. In UK English the term tried and tested implies precisely that the method or whatever has been successfully proven to work, which means that in Czech the verb has to carry the same connotation i.e. prefix: vyzkouseny, overeny, presto any etc. Tested on its own is a different thing and there you would be correct, but not in the idiomatic expression under discussion. Tried and true is to my knowledge not used here in the UK
      > Dagmar
      > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Sarka Rubkova" <sarka@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> You did not care to read my posting correctly. Please do it and then you can
      >> reply to what I really said
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Sarka
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      >> Of James Kirchner
      >> Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:43 AM
      >> To: czechlist@...
      >> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "tried-and-..."
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Sarka, the other native speakers (the UK ones) don't seem to have a problem
      >> with the exact term "tried-and-tested", so that is my objection.
      >>
      >> However, my observation that the word "test" is not equivalent to the word
      >> "vyzkouseny" is accurate, and so is my observation that "tested" does not
      >> mean "nekdo to vyzkousil, a slo", in your words. You can verify that by
      >> looking the verb up in a Merriam-Webster dictionary or a UK edition of an
      >> Oxford dictionary. According to the definitions of "test" in those, the
      >> meaning is "nekdo to vyzkousil", and there is no indication that "to slo".
      >> The addition of "to slo" is a misperception based on somewhat inaccurately
      >> mismatching "test" with "vyzkousit", which are only partially equivalent.
      >> Look the words up, and you'll see.
      >>
      >> Jamie
      >>
      >> On Jun 22, 2013, at 8:15 PM, Sarka Rubkova wrote:
      >>
      >>> It seems to me that you perceive the meaning differently than other native
      >>> speakers who do not have such problem with these two words together. Your
      >>> objections have more less personal nature and I would not consider them so
      >>> general as you present them
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> sarka
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
      >> Behalf
      >>> Of James Kirchner
      >>> Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2013 2:16 PM
      >>> To: czechlist@... <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "tried-and-..."
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> "Vyzkouseny" has a sense of completeness to it (probably because of the
      >>> prefix "vy-"), but "tested" doesn't have that sense. "Tested" does not
      >> have
      >>> to mean that there was a favorable result to the test. It just means
      >>> something was tested and says nothing about the result. ("We tested it,
      >> and
      >>> it fell apart." "This is where we put the tested parts that failed.") This
      >>> is why "tried-and-tested" is tautological.
      >>>
      >>> Another reason is that "tested" doesn't mean it underwent anything
      >>> "oficialni" or "podnikove". You can see this on the containers that
      >> cleaners
      >>> come in, where it says, "Test it on an inconspicuous place on the
      >> material,"
      >>> to make sure it doesn't damage the surface it's supposed to clean. There
      >> are
      >>> similar statements on other instructions. They indicate that a regular
      >>> person is supposed to "zkusit" something at home under uncontrolled
      >>> conditions. A teenage girl may "test her attractiveness" on boys at
      >> school,
      >>> or two men may "test their strength" against each other by arm wrestling.
      >>> "Test" does not have to be "oficialni" or "podnikove", and I would
      >> estimate
      >>> that in most usages it is not.
      >>>
      >>> I think there are two confusing things here that make interpretation of
      >> the
      >>> word prone to interference from Czech:
      >>>
      >>> 1. Czech uses perfective forms that imply completion and some result. The
      >>> word "test" does not necessarily imply completion or a result.
      >>>
      >>> 2. Czech has native and foreign synonyms here, and the foreign synonym (as
      >>> in English) is more likely to be used for something official. In English,
      >>> "test" is used in as many or more informal contexts than official ones.
      >>>
      >>> Jamie
      >>>
      >>> On Jun 22, 2013, at 5:23 AM, Sarka Rubkova wrote:
      >>>
      >>>> Proste nechapu proc tried and tested nedava smysl. Podle mne tato slova
      >>> maji odlisny vyznam. Tried je neco jako vyzkouseny (ve smyslu vyzkouseny
      >>> postup) - nekdo to vyzkousel (zkusil), a slo. Tested podle znamena nejake
      >>> oficialni nebo podnikove testy s prokazatelnymi vysledky.
      >>>>
      >>>> Tak v cem je problem?
      >>>>
      >>>> sarka
      >>>>
      >>>> -----Original Message-----
      >>>> From: czechlist-bounces@...
      >> <mailto:czechlist-bounces%40czechlist.org>
      >>> <mailto:czechlist-bounces%40czechlist.org>
      >>> [mailto:czechlist-bounces@...
      >> <mailto:czechlist-bounces%40czechlist.org>
      >>> <mailto:czechlist-bounces%40czechlist.org> ] On Behalf Of James Kirchner
      >>>> Sent: Friday, June 21, 2013 1:49 PM
      >>>> To: czechlist@... <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >> <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>> Subject: Re: [Czechlist]"tried-and-..."
      >>>>
      >>>> I've never heard "tried and trusted", but it makes perfect sense, unlike
      >>> "tried and tested".
      >>>>
      >>>> Thanks very much.
      >>>>
      >>>> Jamie
      >>>>
      >>>> On Jun 21, 2013, at 2:15 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
      >>>>
      >>>>> If 'tried and tested' is too much of a tautology for you and 'tried
      >>>>> and true' too American for the client, what about
      >>>>>
      >>>>> "Tried and trusted"?
      >>>>>
      >>>>> That seems to tick all the boxes:
      >>>>>
      >>>>> http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/tried%2Band%2Btested%
      >> <http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/tried%2Band%2Btested%25>
      >>> <http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/tried%2Band%2Btested%25>
      >>
      >>>>> 2Bor%2Btried%2Band%2Btrusted%2Bor%2Bnorth%2Bamerican%2Btried%2Band%2Bt
      >>>>> rue___1
      >>>>>
      >>>>> M
      >>>>> ------ Original Message ------
      >>>>> From: "James Kirchner" <czechlist@...
      >> <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>> <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org> >
      >>>>> To: czechlist@... <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >> <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>>> Sent: 21.6.2013 5:56:14
      >>>>> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "tried-and-..."
      >>>>>> Attested or not, the term sounds so stupid to me that I want to avoid
      >>>>>> it.
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> I have clients wanting Germlish or Czenglish, but I don't give it to
      >>>>>> them. The best thing is just to use another term. The only reason he
      >>>>>> got this "tried-and-..." bug in his rear end is that I used the term
      >>>>>> "tried-and-true". If I hadn't chosen that term, he'd never have
      >>>>>> thought about it, so I see nothing wrong with using a completely
      >>>>>> different sort of term that neither one of us will complain about.
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> Jamie
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 10:24 PM, wustpisk wrote:
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>> Nothing wrong with tried and tested, IMO
      >>>>>>> http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/tried+and+tested.html
      >>>>>>> http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/tried+and+tested
      >>>>>>> http://www.businesstraveller.com/tried-and-tested
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> If that is what the customer wants, let him have it, after all koho
      >>>>>> chleba jis, toho pisen zpivej ...
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> ,
      >>> James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> Let me pick people's brains, please.
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> In North America, we use an expression "tried-and-true", meaning
      >>>>>> that something has gone through repeated use and testing and has
      >>>>>> shown itself to do what it's supposed to.
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> "a tried-and-true method"
      >>>>>>>> "a tried-and-true solution"
      >>>>>>>> "a tried-and-true device"
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> A client of a client of mine (a non-native English speaker) hates
      >>>>>> this expression for some reason, and wants me to say
      >>>>>> "tried-and-tested". To me, "tried-and-tested" sounds like
      >>>>>> tautological nonsense, as if people keep trying something and testing
      >>>>>> it but still can't tell if works.
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> I'm looking for synonyms so that I don't have to use either of
      >>>>>> these "tried-and-..." expressions. Then neither the client's client
      >>>>>> or I will have anything to complain about.
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> The only synonym I can think of right now is "proven" (a proven
      >>>>>> method, a proven machine, a proven device, etc.).
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> Can anyone think of other synonyms?
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> Jamie
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
      >>>>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
      >>>>>>>> Czechlist@
      >>>>>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
      >>>>>>> Czechlist mailing list
      >>>>>>> Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >> <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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      >> <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
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      >>>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>>>
      >>>>> _______________________________________________
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      >> <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>>>
      >>>>
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      >>>>
      >>>>
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      >>>
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      >> <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
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      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>
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      >>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >>
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      >>
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      >>
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >
      >
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    • James Kirchner
      Some of this doesn t make any sense. What is qrowed ? The phrased realised on the test is almost certainly foreigner English. Jamie ...
      Message 32 of 32 , Jun 24, 2013
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        Some of this doesn't make any sense.

        What is "qrowed"?

        The phrased "realised on the test" is almost certainly foreigner English.

        Jamie

        On Jun 24, 2013, at 11:40 AM, Milan wrote:

        > Pohled do 3 prekladovych pameti, CS-EN nabizi nekolik prekladu "vyzkousen"
        >
        > 1. video-titulky, 11.836.569 segmentu
        >
        > "vyzkousen" 109 x
        >
        > en: tested, proven, checked, had done, tried, (quizzed), qrowed,
        >
        > 2. DGT 2011, 1.884.470 segmentu
        >
        > "vyzkousen" 44 x
        >
        > en: tested, tried, proven, is realised on the test,
        >
        > 3. EMEA, 335.516 segmentu
        >
        > "vyzkousen" 15 x
        >
        > en: has been studied, has been proven, approved, is proven, tested
        >
        > Lehce zkouseny nic nenapsat,
        >
        > Milan
        >
        >
        > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > _______________________________________________
        > Czechlist mailing list
        > Czechlist@...
        > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


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