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sentence from a legal text

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  • Pilucha, Jiri
    Dear all, I am completely at a loss with the following semtence Zastavni pravo ma vecnou povahu, tzn. zasadne nasleduje pravni osud zajistene veci. Would you
    Message 1 of 6 , May 21 3:01 PM
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      Dear all, I am completely at a loss with the following semtence

      Zastavni pravo ma vecnou povahu, tzn. zasadne nasleduje pravni osud zajistene veci.

      Would you please have any suggestions

      Thanks a lot

      Jiri


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Mark Gillis
      Jiri,   I know exactly what the sentence means, but the trouble is getting it into plausible and precise English (and WHICH English). My initial stab at it
      Message 2 of 6 , May 21 3:32 PM
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        Jiri,
         
        I know exactly what the sentence means, but the trouble is getting it into plausible and precise English (and WHICH English). My initial stab at it would be something like the following: "Security rights (interests) are of an in rem nature, which means they in
        principle follow (are dependent upon) the legal fate of the secured item."
         
        Under American law, "security interests" are rights in secured transactions, which in English law are referred to as "chattel mortgages". As I am an American lawyer, I am not entirely certain how exactly they would phrase that in English law. A further problem is that, whereas in continental legal systems, they tend to use general terms that have very broad meanings (zástava/zástavní), in Common law we tend to have a multiplicity of terms. Here it could be mortgage, lien, pledge, collateral, etc., so I have opted for the more general term, "security".
         
        Mark
         

        ________________________________
        From: "Pilucha, Jiri" <jiri.pilucha@...>
        To: "Czechlist@yahoogroups.com" <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:01 AM
        Subject: [Czechlist] sentence from a legal text



         

        Dear all, I am completely at a loss with the following semtence

        Zastavni pravo ma vecnou povahu, tzn. zasadne nasleduje pravni osud zajistene veci.

        Would you please have any suggestions

        Thanks a lot

        Jiri

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Pilucha, Jiri
        Mark, This is extremely helpful. I was mostly wondering about the words “nasleduje pravni osud...” and now I can see they’re translated literally word by
        Message 3 of 6 , May 21 3:55 PM
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          Mark,

          This is extremely helpful.

          I was mostly wondering about the words “nasleduje pravni osud...” and now I can see they’re translated literally word by word in the most straightforward way imaginable.

          Could you just very briefly explain what it means “to follow the legal fate [of the secured item]”?

          By the way, this text seems to be using “security” as an umbrella term for several types of how to secure an item: lien, surety (guarantee provided by a person = guarantor), financial guarantee, transfer of title and wage assignments.

          Thanks again

          Jiri


          From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Gillis
          Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:33 AM
          To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Czechlist] sentence from a legal text



          Jiri,

          I know exactly what the sentence means, but the trouble is getting it into plausible and precise English (and WHICH English). My initial stab at it would be something like the following: "Security rights (interests) are of an in rem nature, which means they in
          principle follow (are dependent upon) the legal fate of the secured item."

          Under American law, "security interests" are rights in secured transactions, which in English law are referred to as "chattel mortgages". As I am an American lawyer, I am not entirely certain how exactly they would phrase that in English law. A further problem is that, whereas in continental legal systems, they tend to use general terms that have very broad meanings (zástava/zástavní), in Common law we tend to have a multiplicity of terms. Here it could be mortgage, lien, pledge, collateral, etc., so I have opted for the more general term, "security".

          Mark


          ________________________________
          From: "Pilucha, Jiri" <jiri.pilucha@...<mailto:jiri.pilucha%40cz.unisys.com>>
          To: "Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>" <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>>
          Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:01 AM
          Subject: [Czechlist] sentence from a legal text





          Dear all, I am completely at a loss with the following semtence

          Zastavni pravo ma vecnou povahu, tzn. zasadne nasleduje pravni osud zajistene veci.

          Would you please have any suggestions

          Thanks a lot

          Jiri

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Pilucha, Jiri
          Mark, please don’t spend too much time and effort explaining that concept in detail... what I meant was like three or four sentences... maybe an impossible
          Message 4 of 6 , May 21 4:12 PM
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            Mark, please don’t spend too much time and effort explaining that concept in detail... what I meant was like three or four sentences... maybe an impossible task is it?
            In fact it is utterly inappropriate of me to bother other people instead of doing my homework in the first place



            From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Pilucha, Jiri
            Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:55 AM
            To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [Czechlist] sentence from a legal text



            Mark,

            This is extremely helpful.

            I was mostly wondering about the words “nasleduje pravni osud...” and now I can see they’re translated literally word by word in the most straightforward way imaginable.

            Could you just very briefly explain what it means “to follow the legal fate [of the secured item]”?

            By the way, this text seems to be using “security” as an umbrella term for several types of how to secure an item: lien, surety (guarantee provided by a person = guarantor), financial guarantee, transfer of title and wage assignments.

            Thanks again

            Jiri


            From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Mark Gillis
            Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:33 AM
            To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: Re: [Czechlist] sentence from a legal text



            Jiri,

            I know exactly what the sentence means, but the trouble is getting it into plausible and precise English (and WHICH English). My initial stab at it would be something like the following: "Security rights (interests) are of an in rem nature, which means they in
            principle follow (are dependent upon) the legal fate of the secured item."

            Under American law, "security interests" are rights in secured transactions, which in English law are referred to as "chattel mortgages". As I am an American lawyer, I am not entirely certain how exactly they would phrase that in English law. A further problem is that, whereas in continental legal systems, they tend to use general terms that have very broad meanings (zástava/zástavní), in Common law we tend to have a multiplicity of terms. Here it could be mortgage, lien, pledge, collateral, etc., so I have opted for the more general term, "security".

            Mark


            ________________________________
            From: "Pilucha, Jiri" <jiri.pilucha@...<mailto:jiri.pilucha%40cz.unisys.com><mailto:jiri.pilucha%40cz.unisys.com>>
            To: "Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>" <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>>
            Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:01 AM
            Subject: [Czechlist] sentence from a legal text





            Dear all, I am completely at a loss with the following semtence

            Zastavni pravo ma vecnou povahu, tzn. zasadne nasleduje pravni osud zajistene veci.

            Would you please have any suggestions

            Thanks a lot

            Jiri

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Zuzana Benesova
            Dear Jiri, I think there is no need for lengthy explanations. X nasleduje pravni osud Y = X has the same legal fate as Y. As I understand it the phrase is
            Message 5 of 6 , May 21 10:45 PM
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              Dear Jiri,

              I think there is no need for lengthy explanations. "X nasleduje pravni osud Y" = X has the same legal fate as Y. As I understand it the phrase is trying to convey that the legal effects relating to the secured item automatically also relate to the security rights. The phrasing is a bit unusual but no complicated meaning IMO. See what Mark says :-)

              Zuzka

              22. 5. 2013 v 0:01, Pilucha, Jiri:

              > Dear all, I am completely at a loss with the following semtence
              >
              > Zastavni pravo ma vecnou povahu, tzn. zasadne nasleduje pravni osud zajistene veci.
              >
              > Would you please have any suggestions
              >
              > Thanks a lot
              >
              > Jiri
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > _______________________________________________
              > Czechlist mailing list
              > Czechlist@...
              > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


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            • Mark Gillis
              Jirko,   I didn t respond sooner as, for some strange reason, your messages ended up in my spam. I gave two possibilities for nasleduje , namely follow (are
              Message 6 of 6 , May 22 12:17 PM
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                Jirko,
                 
                I didn't respond sooner as, for some strange reason, your messages ended up in my spam. I gave two possibilities for "nasleduje", namely "follow (are dependent upon)". I generally don't like to do that (makes it ambiguous), but I don't know the context. Another possibility, which is really more English ("follow" is more Czenglish) would be "share", so share the fate of.
                 
                The idea that a security right shares the legal fate of the secured item is an example of a broader principle that a derivative right can be no greater than the right from which it is derived. As an example, a purchaser of a good enjoys no greater rights than the seller or A
                seller cannot convey a better title to the buyer then he has himself  [http://studypoints.blogspot.com/2011/08/seller-cannot-convey-better-title-to_6172.html%5d. Here is something else I found in a quick google, although concerning contracts, not security interests: "The rights of the assignee regarding the assigned contract are no greater than those of the assignor. If the other party to the contract could have successfully defended against a suit brought by the assignor, that party (the obligor) will also prevail against the assignee." [http://contracts.uslegal.com/third-parties-and-assignments/%5d
                 
                Mark
                 

                ________________________________
                From: "Pilucha, Jiri" <jiri.pilucha@...>
                To: "Czechlist@yahoogroups.com" <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:55 AM
                Subject: RE: [Czechlist] sentence from a legal text


                 

                Mark,

                This is extremely helpful.

                I was mostly wondering about the words “nasleduje pravni osud...” and now I can see they’re translated literally word by word in the most straightforward way imaginable.

                Could you just very briefly explain what it means “to follow the legal fate [of the secured item]”?

                By the way, this text seems to be using “security” as an umbrella term for several types of how to secure an item: lien, surety (guarantee provided by a person = guarantor), financial guarantee, transfer of title and wage assignments.

                Thanks again

                Jiri


                From: mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Gillis
                Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:33 AM
                To: mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Czechlist] sentence from a legal text



                Jiri,

                I know exactly what the sentence means, but the trouble is getting it into plausible and precise English (and WHICH English). My initial stab at it would be something like the following: "Security rights (interests) are of an in rem nature, which means they in
                principle follow (are dependent upon) the legal fate of the secured item."

                Under American law, "security interests" are rights in secured transactions, which in English law are referred to as "chattel mortgages". As I am an American lawyer, I am not entirely certain how exactly they would phrase that in English law. A further problem is that, whereas in continental legal systems, they tend to use general terms that have very broad meanings (zástava/zástavní), in Common law we tend to have a multiplicity of terms. Here it could be mortgage, lien, pledge, collateral, etc., so I have opted for the more general term, "security".

                Mark


                ________________________________
                From: "Pilucha, Jiri" <mailto:jiri.pilucha%40cz.unisys.com<mailto:jiri.pilucha%40cz.unisys.com>>
                To: "mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>" <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>>
                Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:01 AM
                Subject: [Czechlist] sentence from a legal text





                Dear all, I am completely at a loss with the following semtence

                Zastavni pravo ma vecnou povahu, tzn. zasadne nasleduje pravni osud zajistene veci.

                Would you please have any suggestions

                Thanks a lot

                Jiri

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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