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[Czechlist] help CES - ENG Tematicky okruh Priprava pokrmu na 1. stupni ZS

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  • Helena Subrtova
    Hello, Could anyone help me with: *Tematicky okruh Priprava pokrmu na 1. stupni ZS It is a title of a dissertation at the Faculty of Education. tematicky okruh
    Message 1 of 9 , May 16, 2013
      Hello,

      Could anyone help me with:
      *Tematicky okruh Priprava pokrmu na 1. stupni ZS

      It is a title of a dissertation at the Faculty of Education.
      tematicky okruh - in the past they called it "vzdelavaci oblast" / "ramcova
      vzdelavaci oblast" (RVP).



      Thanks.

      Helena
      _______________________________________________
      Czechlist mailing list
      Czechlist@...
      http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
    • Melvyn
      ... The most plausible translation that I can find for tematicky okruh in an educational setting is subject area .
      Message 2 of 9 , May 16, 2013
        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Helena Subrtova <HSubrtova@...> wrote:
        > Could anyone help me with:
        > *Tematicky okruh Priprava pokrmu na 1. stupni ZS

        The most plausible translation that I can find for tematicky okruh in an educational setting is "subject area".

        http://en.glosbe.com/cs/en/Tematick%C3%BD%20okruh

        Subject area: Food preparation at the first level of primary school?


        >
        > It is a title of a dissertation at the Faculty of Education.
        > tematicky okruh - in the past they called it "vzdelavaci oblast" / "ramcova
        > vzdelavaci oblast" (RVP).

        Educational field/General educational field??

        BR

        Melvyn
      • Helena Subrtova
        It is a Czech zakladni skola - it has two levels (prvni, druhy stupen) (the first stage - for children aged 7-12, the second stage - children aged 13-15).
        Message 3 of 9 , May 16, 2013
          It is a Czech "zakladni skola" - it has two levels (prvni, druhy stupen)
          (the first stage - for children aged 7-12, the second stage - children aged
          13-15).

          Helena

          --
          www.kvalitnipreklad.cz

          Potrebujete preklad dokumentu, tlumoceni nebo vyuku anglictiny? Pak jste na
          spravne adrese.


          ---------- Puvodni zprava ----------
          Od: "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...>
          Datum: 16. 5. 2013
          Predmet: [Czechlist] Re: help CES - ENG Tematicky okruh Priprava pokrmu na
          1. stupni ZS

          "--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Helena Subrtova <HSubrtova@...> wrote:
          > Could anyone help me with:
          > *Tematicky okruh Priprava pokrmu na 1. stupni ZS

          The most plausible translation that I can find for tematicky okruh in an
          educational setting is "subject area".

          http://en.glosbe.com/cs/en/Tematick%C3%BD%20okruh

          Subject area: Food preparation at the first level of primary school?


          >
          > It is a title of a dissertation at the Faculty of Education.
          > tematicky okruh - in the past they called it "vzdelavaci oblast" /
          "ramcova
          > vzdelavaci oblast" (RVP).

          Educational field/General educational field??

          BR

          Melvyn


          _______________________________________________
          Czechlist mailing list
          Czechlist@...
          http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist"
          _______________________________________________
          Czechlist mailing list
          Czechlist@...
          http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
        • Dagmar
          Re zakladni skola This is my pet hate - basic school... In UK English, the prvni stupen covers primary school (divided into infant and junior schools), so I
          Message 4 of 9 , May 17, 2013
            Re zakladni skola
            This is my pet hate - basic school...
            In UK English, the prvni stupen covers primary school (divided into infant and junior schools), so I would just translate it as primary school. I believe in the US it's the elementary school (which is a much better synonym for basic, because when I hear basic, I always think of something not that good, just basic. While zakladni in this case is to signify more a foundation level/elementary).
            But I guess I'm just shouting at trees here and I ought to just give up..

            Still, elementary or primary would be my choice, so that the EN speaking audience understands.

            Dagmar

            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Helena Subrtova <HSubrtova@...> wrote:
            >
            > It is a Czech "zakladni skola" - it has two levels (prvni, druhy stupen)
            > (the first stage - for children aged 7-12, the second stage - children aged
            > 13-15).
            >
            > Helena
            >
            > --
            > www.kvalitnipreklad.cz
            >
            > Potrebujete preklad dokumentu, tlumoceni nebo vyuku anglictiny? Pak jste na
            > spravne adrese.
            >
            >
            > ---------- Puvodni zprava ----------
            > Od: "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...>
            > Datum: 16. 5. 2013
            > Predmet: [Czechlist] Re: help CES - ENG Tematicky okruh Priprava pokrmu na
            > 1. stupni ZS
            >
            > "--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Helena Subrtova <HSubrtova@> wrote:
            > > Could anyone help me with:
            > > *Tematicky okruh Priprava pokrmu na 1. stupni ZS
            >
            > The most plausible translation that I can find for tematicky okruh in an
            > educational setting is "subject area".
            >
            > http://en.glosbe.com/cs/en/Tematick%C3%BD%20okruh
            >
            > Subject area: Food preparation at the first level of primary school?
            >
            >
            > >
            > > It is a title of a dissertation at the Faculty of Education.
            > > tematicky okruh - in the past they called it "vzdelavaci oblast" /
            > "ramcova
            > > vzdelavaci oblast" (RVP).
            >
            > Educational field/General educational field??
            >
            > BR
            >
            > Melvyn
            >
            >
            > _______________________________________________
            > Czechlist mailing list
            > Czechlist@...
            > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist"
            > _______________________________________________
            > Czechlist mailing list
            > Czechlist@...
            > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
            >
          • maxicek
            This is the equivalent of lower primary and upper primary in BrE, isn t it? I ve adopted that usage as there s really no other way how to explain it in
            Message 5 of 9 , May 17, 2013
              This is the equivalent of "lower primary" and "upper primary" in BrE, isn't it? I've adopted that usage as there's really no other way how to explain it in AmE - you can call the upper primary "middle school", but in the US, middle school is often in a separate building, while here it's not.

              Jennifer

              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Helena Subrtova <HSubrtova@...> wrote:
              >
              > It is a Czech "zakladni skola" - it has two levels (prvni, druhy stupen)
              > (the first stage - for children aged 7-12, the second stage - children aged
              > 13-15).
              >
              > Helena
              >
              > --
              > www.kvalitnipreklad.cz
              >
              > Potrebujete preklad dokumentu, tlumoceni nebo vyuku anglictiny? Pak jste na
              > spravne adrese.
              >
              >
              > ---------- Puvodni zprava ----------
              > Od: "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...>
              > Datum: 16. 5. 2013
              > Predmet: [Czechlist] Re: help CES - ENG Tematicky okruh Priprava pokrmu na
              > 1. stupni ZS
              >
              > "--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Helena Subrtova <HSubrtova@> wrote:
              > > Could anyone help me with:
              > > *Tematicky okruh Priprava pokrmu na 1. stupni ZS
              >
              > The most plausible translation that I can find for tematicky okruh in an
              > educational setting is "subject area".
              >
              > http://en.glosbe.com/cs/en/Tematick%C3%BD%20okruh
              >
              > Subject area: Food preparation at the first level of primary school?
              >
              >
              > >
              > > It is a title of a dissertation at the Faculty of Education.
              > > tematicky okruh - in the past they called it "vzdelavaci oblast" /
              > "ramcova
              > > vzdelavaci oblast" (RVP).
              >
              > Educational field/General educational field??
              >
              > BR
              >
              > Melvyn
              >
              >
              > _______________________________________________
              > Czechlist mailing list
              > Czechlist@...
              > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist"
              > _______________________________________________
              > Czechlist mailing list
              > Czechlist@...
              > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
              >
            • James Kirchner
              In the US, that level is called elementary school , primary school or grammar school . Elementary school is the most common term. The last of the three
              Message 6 of 9 , May 17, 2013
                In the US, that level is called "elementary school", "primary school" or "grammar school". "Elementary school" is the most common term. The last of the three terms explains why it sounds completely strange to an American when someone who attends gymnazium says he goes to a "secondary grammar school".

                The interesting thing is that "zakladni skola" is basically a calque of "Grundschule", and while the Germans have gone with an accurate English translation of the term, the Czechs, even at an official level, seem to be very hard-headed and proud of their defective English translations of things.

                Jamie

                On May 17, 2013, at 8:31 AM, Dagmar wrote:

                > Re zakladni skola
                > This is my pet hate - basic school...
                > In UK English, the prvni stupen covers primary school (divided into infant and junior schools), so I would just translate it as primary school. I believe in the US it's the elementary school (which is a much better synonym for basic, because when I hear basic, I always think of something not that good, just basic. While zakladni in this case is to signify more a foundation level/elementary).
                > But I guess I'm just shouting at trees here and I ought to just give up..
                >
                > Still, elementary or primary would be my choice, so that the EN speaking audience understands.
                >
                > Dagmar
                >
                > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Helena Subrtova <HSubrtova@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> It is a Czech "zakladni skola" - it has two levels (prvni, druhy stupen)
                >> (the first stage - for children aged 7-12, the second stage - children aged
                >> 13-15).
                >>
                >> Helena
                >>
                >> --
                >> www.kvalitnipreklad.cz
                >>
                >> Potrebujete preklad dokumentu, tlumoceni nebo vyuku anglictiny? Pak jste na
                >> spravne adrese.
                >>
                >>
                >> ---------- Puvodni zprava ----------
                >> Od: "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...>
                >> Datum: 16. 5. 2013
                >> Predmet: [Czechlist] Re: help CES - ENG Tematicky okruh Priprava pokrmu na
                >> 1. stupni ZS
                >>
                >> "--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Helena Subrtova <HSubrtova@> wrote:
                >>> Could anyone help me with:
                >>> *Tematicky okruh Priprava pokrmu na 1. stupni ZS
                >>
                >> The most plausible translation that I can find for tematicky okruh in an
                >> educational setting is "subject area".
                >>
                >> http://en.glosbe.com/cs/en/Tematick%C3%BD%20okruh
                >>
                >> Subject area: Food preparation at the first level of primary school?
                >>
                >>
                >>>
                >>> It is a title of a dissertation at the Faculty of Education.
                >>> tematicky okruh - in the past they called it "vzdelavaci oblast" /
                >> "ramcova
                >>> vzdelavaci oblast" (RVP).
                >>
                >> Educational field/General educational field??
                >>
                >> BR
                >>
                >> Melvyn
                >>
                >>
                >> _______________________________________________
                >> Czechlist mailing list
                >> Czechlist@...
                >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist"
                >> _______________________________________________
                >> Czechlist mailing list
                >> Czechlist@...
                >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                >>
                >
                >
                > _______________________________________________
                > Czechlist mailing list
                > Czechlist@...
                > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


                _______________________________________________
                Czechlist mailing list
                Czechlist@...
                http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
              • James Kirchner
                Those are good solutions, because, as you say, there s really no US equivalent, but on the other hand, they d be readily understood in the US. The only problem
                Message 7 of 9 , May 17, 2013
                  Those are good solutions, because, as you say, there's really no US equivalent, but on the other hand, they'd be readily understood in the US.

                  The only problem would be for people who are deep in the US educational system, because we do have the terms "lower primary" and "upper primary". I believe lower primary here is 1st through 3rd grade, and 4th through 6th grade would be upper primary. Anyway, I remember being told on the first day of 4th or 5th grade that we were now in the "upper grades".

                  One solution would be to see how it's divided up in Catholic schools and other US primary schools that have everyone from kindergartners up to 13-year-olds in the same building.

                  Jamie

                  On May 17, 2013, at 8:51 AM, maxicek wrote:

                  > This is the equivalent of "lower primary" and "upper primary" in BrE, isn't it? I've adopted that usage as there's really no other way how to explain it in AmE - you can call the upper primary "middle school", but in the US, middle school is often in a separate building, while here it's not.
                  >
                  > Jennifer
                  >
                  > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Helena Subrtova <HSubrtova@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> It is a Czech "zakladni skola" - it has two levels (prvni, druhy stupen)
                  >> (the first stage - for children aged 7-12, the second stage - children aged
                  >> 13-15).
                  >>
                  >> Helena
                  >>
                  >> --
                  >> www.kvalitnipreklad.cz
                  >>
                  >> Potrebujete preklad dokumentu, tlumoceni nebo vyuku anglictiny? Pak jste na
                  >> spravne adrese.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> ---------- Puvodni zprava ----------
                  >> Od: "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...>
                  >> Datum: 16. 5. 2013
                  >> Predmet: [Czechlist] Re: help CES - ENG Tematicky okruh Priprava pokrmu na
                  >> 1. stupni ZS
                  >>
                  >> "--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Helena Subrtova <HSubrtova@> wrote:
                  >>> Could anyone help me with:
                  >>> *Tematicky okruh Priprava pokrmu na 1. stupni ZS
                  >>
                  >> The most plausible translation that I can find for tematicky okruh in an
                  >> educational setting is "subject area".
                  >>
                  >> http://en.glosbe.com/cs/en/Tematick%C3%BD%20okruh
                  >>
                  >> Subject area: Food preparation at the first level of primary school?
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>>
                  >>> It is a title of a dissertation at the Faculty of Education.
                  >>> tematicky okruh - in the past they called it "vzdelavaci oblast" /
                  >> "ramcova
                  >>> vzdelavaci oblast" (RVP).
                  >>
                  >> Educational field/General educational field??
                  >>
                  >> BR
                  >>
                  >> Melvyn
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> _______________________________________________
                  >> Czechlist mailing list
                  >> Czechlist@...
                  >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist"
                  >> _______________________________________________
                  >> Czechlist mailing list
                  >> Czechlist@...
                  >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  > _______________________________________________
                  > Czechlist mailing list
                  > Czechlist@...
                  > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


                  _______________________________________________
                  Czechlist mailing list
                  Czechlist@...
                  http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                • Melvyn
                  Putting on my black thinking hat for a moment ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Thinking_Hats ), if you use a specificially British term here then there is
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 17, 2013
                    Putting on my black thinking hat for a moment ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Thinking_Hats ), if you use a specificially British term here then there is surely a danger IMO that readers will see the entire situation in British terms, even though the British educational system is quite different, e.g. we start primary school at the age of five and graduate from "infants" to "juniors" around the age of eight.

                    There is sometimes no shame in letting your translation sound a little foreign, I believe.

                    BR

                    Melvyn
                    Brilliant, Holmes. You must have had a very good education.
                    Elementary, my dear Watson.

                    --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Those are good solutions, because, as you say, there's really no US equivalent, but on the other hand, they'd be readily understood in the US.
                    >
                    > The only problem would be for people who are deep in the US educational system, because we do have the terms "lower primary" and "upper primary". I believe lower primary here is 1st through 3rd grade, and 4th through 6th grade would be upper primary. Anyway, I remember being told on the first day of 4th or 5th grade that we were now in the "upper grades".
                    >
                    > One solution would be to see how it's divided up in Catholic schools and other US primary schools that have everyone from kindergartners up to 13-year-olds in the same building.
                    >
                    > Jamie
                    >
                    > On May 17, 2013, at 8:51 AM, maxicek wrote:
                    >
                    > > This is the equivalent of "lower primary" and "upper primary" in BrE, isn't it? I've adopted that usage as there's really no other way how to explain it in AmE - you can call the upper primary "middle school", but in the US, middle school is often in a separate building, while here it's not.
                    > >
                    > > Jennifer
                    > >
                    > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Helena Subrtova <HSubrtova@> wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >> It is a Czech "zakladni skola" - it has two levels (prvni, druhy stupen)
                    > >> (the first stage - for children aged 7-12, the second stage - children aged
                    > >> 13-15).
                    > >>
                    > >> Helena
                    > >>
                    > >> --
                    > >> www.kvalitnipreklad.cz
                    > >>
                    > >> Potrebujete preklad dokumentu, tlumoceni nebo vyuku anglictiny? Pak jste na
                    > >> spravne adrese.
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> ---------- Puvodni zprava ----------
                    > >> Od: "Melvyn" <zehrovak@>
                    > >> Datum: 16. 5. 2013
                    > >> Predmet: [Czechlist] Re: help CES - ENG Tematicky okruh Priprava pokrmu na
                    > >> 1. stupni ZS
                    > >>
                    > >> "--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Helena Subrtova <HSubrtova@> wrote:
                    > >>> Could anyone help me with:
                    > >>> *Tematicky okruh Priprava pokrmu na 1. stupni ZS
                    > >>
                    > >> The most plausible translation that I can find for tematicky okruh in an
                    > >> educational setting is "subject area".
                    > >>
                    > >> http://en.glosbe.com/cs/en/Tematick%C3%BD%20okruh
                    > >>
                    > >> Subject area: Food preparation at the first level of primary school?
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>>
                    > >>> It is a title of a dissertation at the Faculty of Education.
                    > >>> tematicky okruh - in the past they called it "vzdelavaci oblast" /
                    > >> "ramcova
                    > >>> vzdelavaci oblast" (RVP).
                    > >>
                    > >> Educational field/General educational field??
                    > >>
                    > >> BR
                    > >>
                    > >> Melvyn
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> _______________________________________________
                    > >> Czechlist mailing list
                    > >> Czechlist@
                    > >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist"
                    > >> _______________________________________________
                    > >> Czechlist mailing list
                    > >> Czechlist@
                    > >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > _______________________________________________
                    > > Czechlist mailing list
                    > > Czechlist@...
                    > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                    >
                    >
                    > _______________________________________________
                    > Czechlist mailing list
                    > Czechlist@...
                    > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                    >
                  • Dagmar
                    I agree with you, Melvin, we cannot use any of the specific terms that would not match the ages/organisation of the Cz system, but I wish they would dispense
                    Message 9 of 9 , May 18, 2013
                      I agree with you, Melvin, we cannot use any of the specific terms that would not match the ages/organisation of the Cz system, but I wish they would dispense with the term basic school. If I could, I'd coin the terms lower and upper elementary school...this would be perfectly understandable to BEn speakers, while sufficiently different to indicate the different system to motivate the reader to look up the details.
                      Dagmar

                      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Putting on my black thinking hat for a moment ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Thinking_Hats ), if you use a specificially British term here then there is surely a danger IMO that readers will see the entire situation in British terms, even though the British educational system is quite different, e.g. we start primary school at the age of five and graduate from "infants" to "juniors" around the age of eight.
                      >
                      > There is sometimes no shame in letting your translation sound a little foreign, I believe.
                      >
                      > BR
                      >
                      > Melvyn
                      > Brilliant, Holmes. You must have had a very good education.
                      > Elementary, my dear Watson.
                      >
                      > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Those are good solutions, because, as you say, there's really no US equivalent, but on the other hand, they'd be readily understood in the US.
                      > >
                      > > The only problem would be for people who are deep in the US educational system, because we do have the terms "lower primary" and "upper primary". I believe lower primary here is 1st through 3rd grade, and 4th through 6th grade would be upper primary. Anyway, I remember being told on the first day of 4th or 5th grade that we were now in the "upper grades".
                      > >
                      > > One solution would be to see how it's divided up in Catholic schools and other US primary schools that have everyone from kindergartners up to 13-year-olds in the same building.
                      > >
                      > > Jamie
                      > >
                      > > On May 17, 2013, at 8:51 AM, maxicek wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > This is the equivalent of "lower primary" and "upper primary" in BrE, isn't it? I've adopted that usage as there's really no other way how to explain it in AmE - you can call the upper primary "middle school", but in the US, middle school is often in a separate building, while here it's not.
                      > > >
                      > > > Jennifer
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Helena Subrtova <HSubrtova@> wrote:
                      > > >>
                      > > >> It is a Czech "zakladni skola" - it has two levels (prvni, druhy stupen)
                      > > >> (the first stage - for children aged 7-12, the second stage - children aged
                      > > >> 13-15).
                      > > >>
                      > > >> Helena
                      > > >>
                      > > >> --
                      > > >> www.kvalitnipreklad.cz
                      > > >>
                      > > >> Potrebujete preklad dokumentu, tlumoceni nebo vyuku anglictiny? Pak jste na
                      > > >> spravne adrese.
                      > > >>
                      > > >>
                      > > >> ---------- Puvodni zprava ----------
                      > > >> Od: "Melvyn" <zehrovak@>
                      > > >> Datum: 16. 5. 2013
                      > > >> Predmet: [Czechlist] Re: help CES - ENG Tematicky okruh Priprava pokrmu na
                      > > >> 1. stupni ZS
                      > > >>
                      > > >> "--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Helena Subrtova <HSubrtova@> wrote:
                      > > >>> Could anyone help me with:
                      > > >>> *Tematicky okruh Priprava pokrmu na 1. stupni ZS
                      > > >>
                      > > >> The most plausible translation that I can find for tematicky okruh in an
                      > > >> educational setting is "subject area".
                      > > >>
                      > > >> http://en.glosbe.com/cs/en/Tematick%C3%BD%20okruh
                      > > >>
                      > > >> Subject area: Food preparation at the first level of primary school?
                      > > >>
                      > > >>
                      > > >>>
                      > > >>> It is a title of a dissertation at the Faculty of Education.
                      > > >>> tematicky okruh - in the past they called it "vzdelavaci oblast" /
                      > > >> "ramcova
                      > > >>> vzdelavaci oblast" (RVP).
                      > > >>
                      > > >> Educational field/General educational field??
                      > > >>
                      > > >> BR
                      > > >>
                      > > >> Melvyn
                      > > >>
                      > > >>
                      > > >> _______________________________________________
                      > > >> Czechlist mailing list
                      > > >> Czechlist@
                      > > >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist"
                      > > >> _______________________________________________
                      > > >> Czechlist mailing list
                      > > >> Czechlist@
                      > > >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                      > > >>
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > _______________________________________________
                      > > > Czechlist mailing list
                      > > > Czechlist@
                      > > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > _______________________________________________
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