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Re[2]: [Czechlist] LEGALESE: act of God + floods

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  • (no author)
    Ja osobne jsem uz ve smlouvach videl ledacos.. - v ENG vetsinou Act of God nebo Force Majeure, oboje zatim ne, ale povazuju to za duplikaci a takove to
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 3, 2013
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      Ja osobne jsem uz ve smlouvach videl ledacos..

      - v ENG vetsinou Act of God nebo Force Majeure, oboje zatim ne, ale
      povazuju to za duplikaci a takove to vycurane "dame tam vsechno mozne i
      nemozne" - jako v jinych pripadech ve smlouvach, pokud pro vsechny
      polozky daneho seznamu neexistuji obhajitelne a rozumne znejici ruzne
      preklady, snazim se tam nacpat kolik se jich vejde, aniz bych to
      prehanel a opakoval se..

      - v CZ vetsinou vyssi moc, bozi vule a skutky boha jsem (zaplatpanbuh)
      jeste nezaznamenal, a doufam ze ani nezaznamenam, Jirko proboha nedavej
      to tam, nekde se to objevi a dalsich 50 let to budou lidi opakovat az
      se z toho stane norma.. Okolnosti vylucujici odpovednost jsou hezke,
      ale jako nadpis clanku atd... ve vete kde je FM bych osobne pouzil
      vyssi moc.. rozhodne bych nekombinoval vyssi moc a bozi vuli nebo
      cokoli s bohem (nejen proto, ze jsme takovi ateisti, ale taky ze v CZ
      to jednoznacne znamena neco boziho, pambickarskeho, kdezto v ENG to
      historicky znamena neco podobneho, ba mozna, doufam si tvrdit, stejneho
      jako FM)... zato kdyby Ti chybely polozky do seznamu a chtel jsi byt
      stejne rozvlacny a vycurany jako original, klidne bych uvedl za sebou
      vyssi moc a okolnosti vylucujici odpovednost..

      Tohle je spis o selskem rozumu nez o pravu, rekl bych..

      M



      ------ Original Message ------
      From: "Pilucha, Jiri" <jiri.pilucha@...>
      To: "Czechlist@yahoogroups.com" <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: 3.4.2013 21:38:12
      Subject: RE: [Czechlist] LEGALESE: act of God + floods
      >je to v § 374 Obchodniho zakoniku
      >
      >From: Pilucha, Jiri
      >Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 9:35 PM
      >To: 'Czechlist@yahoogroups.com'
      >Subject: RE: [Czechlist] LEGALESE: act of God + floods
      >
      >v ceskem pravnim radu se to jmenuje "okolnosti vylucujici odpovednost"
      >
      >
      >From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jirka Bolech
      >Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 5:28 PM
      >To: czechlist@...<mailto:czechlist@...>
      >Subject: [Czechlist] LEGALESE: act of God + floods
      >
      >
      >
      >Zdravim:
      >
      >spise ze zvedavosti nez jako zadost o radu by me zajimaly nazory na
      >preklad 'acts of God' ve vyctu prikladu vyssi moci jako priciny neplneni
      >a podobne. Je takova polozka slucitelna s pravnim prostredim Ceske
      >republiky? Me napada prelozit to jako vyssi moc jako takovou, ale pokud
      >je ve stejnem textu jeste 'force majeure', asi by to chtelo nejak od
      >sebe odlisit nebo vynechat jako redundanci. Nebo to proste na urovni
      >prekladu neresit a nechat to jako 'skutky boha', 'bozi vuli' nebo
      >"buhvi" co?
      >
      >Pak me jeste napadlo, ze v Cesku je pravni rozdil (treba v
      >pojistovnictvi) mezi "povodni" a "zaplavou" (pripadne jejich
      >odvozeninami). Mam pocit, ze 'flood' pokryva oba vyznamy a ze by bylo
      >nejlepsi pri pravnim charakteru dokumentu prekladat 'flood' v obecnych
      >souvislostech obema slovy. Souhlas?
      >
      >Jirka Bolech
      >
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      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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    • Melvyn
      ... Vsiml jsem si v tomto americkem akademickem dokumentu: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2012EO380009/abstract i jinde, ze flooding je nekdy
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 3, 2013
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        Jirka napsal:
        > Pak me jeste napadlo, ze v Cesku je pravni rozdil (treba v
        > pojistovnictvi) mezi "povodni" a "zaplavou" (pripadne jejich
        > odvozeninami). Mam pocit, ze 'flood' pokryva oba vyznamy a ze by bylo
        > nejlepsi pri pravnim charakteru dokumentu prekladat 'flood' v obecnych
        > souvislostech obema slovy. Souhlas?

        Vsiml jsem si v tomto americkem akademickem dokumentu:

        http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2012EO380009/abstract

        i jinde, ze flooding je nekdy pokladano za docasnou zalezitost, kdezto inundation plati nadobro neboli for keeps, napr kdyz more sezere cele pobrezni oblasti. Vypada, ze australske pojistovny opravdu rozlisuji mezi temito terminy (asi timto nebo podobnym zpusobem, Romana?).

        Samozrejme tento rozdil neplati vsude a terminy jsou casto zrejme vzajemne vymenitelne i kdyz flood je moc beznejsi. A jak je to v cestine? Mam dojem, ze zaplavy jsou nekdy docasne a nekdy trvale (napr rybnik, ktery se objevil v KZ v letech padesatych prostrednictvim poddolovani se jmenuje mistne Zaplavy) zatimco povodne jsou normalne jenom docasne...?? Anebo kecam?

        S pozdravem,

        Melvyn
      • Charles Stanford
        Cannot comment on the Czech Jirka, but I always thought force majeure and acts of God were the same until recently when I (like you) came across them being
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 3, 2013
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          Cannot comment on the Czech Jirka, but I always thought force majeure and
          acts of God were the same until recently when I (like you) came across them
          being taken to mean separate things in a contract. If you look up FM on
          Wikipedia it is defined as an "extraordinary event or circumstance beyond
          the control of the parties, such as a war <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War>
          , strike <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action>,
          riot<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot>,
          crime, or an event described by the legal term *act of
          God<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_God>
          *(such as hurricane <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane>,
          flooding<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flooding>
          , earthquake <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthquake>, volcanic
          eruption<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_eruption>,
          etc.)" - so FM is something beyond your control and an act of God is
          something more along the lines of what insurers call a "natural peril". God
          knows how you differentiate between the two in Czech and maybe Matej is
          right and you shouldn't bother.

          As regards your flooding, I have been trying to think up something but
          can't. You do come across "floods and inundation" as a pretty common
          collocation - I suppose the floods are rising waters and the inundation is
          heavy-rainfall-related. Found this which maybe explains the difference in
          English a bit:

          "*As mean sea level rise (MSLR) accelerates, it will become increasingly
          necessary and useful to distinguish coastal �flooding� from �inundation.�
          The growing number of coastal MSLR vulnerability assessments makes it clear
          that confused usage is abundant. We propose that the term �flooding� be
          used when dry areas become wet temporarily�either periodically or
          episodically�and that �inundation� be used to denote the process of a dry
          area being permanently drowned or submerged. According to these proposed
          definitions, flooding is always higher than inundation, but they are
          fundamentally different. Flooding, including tidal flooding, is and has
          been dominant along open coasts. However, inundation is likely to become
          ever more important in the coming decades and centuries and may itself
          eventually become a dominant physical coastal process. Differentiating
          between the two will clarify and emphasize the differences between these
          processes.*"


          It is all a bit too heavy I reckon though - everyone just talks about
          flooding.



          2013/4/3 Matej Klimes <mklimes@...>

          > **
          >
          >
          > Ja osobne jsem uz ve smlouvach videl ledacos..
          >
          > - v ENG vetsinou Act of God nebo Force Majeure, oboje zatim ne, ale
          > povazuju to za duplikaci a takove to vycurane "dame tam vsechno mozne i
          > nemozne" - jako v jinych pripadech ve smlouvach, pokud pro vsechny
          > polozky daneho seznamu neexistuji obhajitelne a rozumne znejici ruzne
          > preklady, snazim se tam nacpat kolik se jich vejde, aniz bych to
          > prehanel a opakoval se..
          >
          > - v CZ vetsinou vyssi moc, bozi vule a skutky boha jsem (zaplatpanbuh)
          > jeste nezaznamenal, a doufam ze ani nezaznamenam, Jirko proboha nedavej
          > to tam, nekde se to objevi a dalsich 50 let to budou lidi opakovat az
          > se z toho stane norma.. Okolnosti vylucujici odpovednost jsou hezke,
          > ale jako nadpis clanku atd... ve vete kde je FM bych osobne pouzil
          > vyssi moc.. rozhodne bych nekombinoval vyssi moc a bozi vuli nebo
          > cokoli s bohem (nejen proto, ze jsme takovi ateisti, ale taky ze v CZ
          > to jednoznacne znamena neco boziho, pambickarskeho, kdezto v ENG to
          > historicky znamena neco podobneho, ba mozna, doufam si tvrdit, stejneho
          > jako FM)... zato kdyby Ti chybely polozky do seznamu a chtel jsi byt
          > stejne rozvlacny a vycurany jako original, klidne bych uvedl za sebou
          > vyssi moc a okolnosti vylucujici odpovednost..
          >
          > Tohle je spis o selskem rozumu nez o pravu, rekl bych..
          >
          > M
          >
          >
          > ------ Original Message ------
          > From: "Pilucha, Jiri" <jiri.pilucha@...>
          > To: "Czechlist@yahoogroups.com" <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: 3.4.2013 21:38:12
          > Subject: RE: [Czechlist] LEGALESE: act of God + floods
          > >je to v � 374 Obchodniho zakoniku
          > >
          > >From: Pilucha, Jiri
          > >Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 9:35 PM
          > >To: 'Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <%26%2339%3BCzechlist%40yahoogroups.com>'
          > >Subject: RE: [Czechlist] LEGALESE: act of God + floods
          > >
          > >v ceskem pravnim radu se to jmenuje "okolnosti vylucujici odpovednost"
          > >
          > >
          > >From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
          > [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jirka Bolech
          > >Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 5:28 PM
          > >To: czechlist@...<mailto:czechlist@...>
          > >Subject: [Czechlist] LEGALESE: act of God + floods
          >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >Zdravim:
          > >
          > >spise ze zvedavosti nez jako zadost o radu by me zajimaly nazory na
          > >preklad 'acts of God' ve vyctu prikladu vyssi moci jako priciny neplneni
          > >a podobne. Je takova polozka slucitelna s pravnim prostredim Ceske
          > >republiky? Me napada prelozit to jako vyssi moc jako takovou, ale pokud
          > >je ve stejnem textu jeste 'force majeure', asi by to chtelo nejak od
          > >sebe odlisit nebo vynechat jako redundanci. Nebo to proste na urovni
          > >prekladu neresit a nechat to jako 'skutky boha', 'bozi vuli' nebo
          > >"buhvi" co?
          > >
          > >Pak me jeste napadlo, ze v Cesku je pravni rozdil (treba v
          > >pojistovnictvi) mezi "povodni" a "zaplavou" (pripadne jejich
          > >odvozeninami). Mam pocit, ze 'flood' pokryva oba vyznamy a ze by bylo
          > >nejlepsi pri pravnim charakteru dokumentu prekladat 'flood' v obecnych
          > >souvislostech obema slovy. Souhlas?
          > >
          > >Jirka Bolech
          > >
          > >_______________________________________________
          > >Czechlist mailing list
          > >Czechlist@...<mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
          > >
          > >http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >------------------------------------
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/
          > >
          > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/join
          > > (Yahoo! ID required)
          > >
          > >
          > >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • (no author)
          ... From: Charles Stanford To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: 4.4.2013 0:17:20 Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Czechlist]
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 4, 2013
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            ------ Original Message ------
            From: "Charles Stanford" <charliestanfordtranslations@...>
            To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: 4.4.2013 0:17:20
            Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Czechlist] LEGALESE: act of God + floods
            >or an event described by the legal term *act of
            >God<
            >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_God>
            >*(such as hurricane <
            >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane>,
            >flooding<
            >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flooding>
            >, earthquake <
            >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthquake>, volcanic
            >eruption<
            >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_eruption>,
            >etc.)" - so FM is something beyond your control and an act of God is
            >something more along the lines of what insurers call a "natural peril".
            >
            >In that case we'd call it prirodni katastrofa - that covers everything above.. but it is all included in FM, right? That's why Czech contracts usually just say vyssi moc and then name lots of things, including these..
            >
            >
            >
            >In any case here's your solution, Jirka, shove in prirodni katastrofa and you're done, no god involved in Czech :)
            >
            >
            >
            >M
            >
          • Jirka Bolech
            Diky moc vsem za reakce. Okolnosti vylucujici zopodvednost , jakozto termin definovany v Obchodnim zakoniku, je presne takovy vyraz, jaky jsem potreboval
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 4, 2013
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              Diky moc vsem za reakce. "Okolnosti vylucujici zopodvednost", jakozto
              termin definovany v Obchodnim zakoniku, je presne takovy vyraz, jaky
              jsem potreboval slyset, at uz jako preklad "force majeure' nebo "acts of
              God" nebo "circumstances beyond someone's control" atd.

              Co se tyka rozdilu mezi "povodni" a "zaplavou, nena tezke se dopidit na
              webu; napriklad clanek:
              http://www.novinky.cz/finance/208477-pojistovny-rozlisuji-zaplavu-a-povoden-mnozi-poskozeni-tak-nic-nedostanou.html.
              V anglictine jsem to vzdy bral tak, ze "flood" a "inundation" jsou
              prakticky synonyma, kdy to druhe je formalnejsi. V obou jazycich jsou
              dalsi vyrazy s podobnym vyznamem (zatopeni, high water...) a tipnul bych
              si, ze rozliseni, ktere je popsane treba ve vyse uvedenem clanku,
              nevzniklo s puvodnim vyznamem slov, ale (mnohem) pozdeji. Podobne
              prekvapive muze byt rozliseni mezi ledovkou a naledim, pripadne jeste
              namrazou. Pozor pri prekladani, kde na takovych rozlisenich zalezi...!

              Jirka Bolech

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