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Re: [Czechlist] CHAT: e-commerce

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  • Michael Grant
    ... Erm, I don t know if Kinder is actually the name of the company that produces them, but it IS a brand name. Michael -- BLUE DANUBE international
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 4, 2001
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      >The chocolate egg is not made by any entity named Kinder. People saying
      >"kindervajicko" are using a German morphological rule to add a German
      >morpheme, just as Americans do when they use the suffix "-meister". They
      >were not talking about a brand name, so your "Radegastpivo" or "tojotauto"
      >examples are off the mark.

      Erm, I don't know if Kinder is actually the name of the company that
      produces them, but it IS a brand name.

      Michael

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    • Michael Grant
      ... Prosim te, mezisit ovy ! Michael -- BLUE DANUBE international communication services The Central and East European Language Source!
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 4, 2001
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        >internetovy

        Prosim te, "mezisit'ovy"!
        Michael

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      • Michal Ginter
        ... regard to ... That is true. However, another important thing to note is that Czech comes in two forms: Obecna cestina a spisovna cestina. Most educated
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 4, 2001
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          > The important thing to note here is that, unlike English or most other
          > languages, Czech has an academy that determines rules without much
          regard to
          > what rules exist in the speech of ordinary people.

          That is true. However, another important thing to note is that Czech
          comes in two forms: Obecna cestina a spisovna cestina. Most educated
          speakers of Czech speak obecna cestina in some circumstances and
          spisovna cestina in others. Similar division exists in other
          languages, too. Consider Arabic, to give you just one example. When
          they use official Arabic, they have to comply with rules that were set
          by a single person 700 or so years ago.

          Study of Czech history may give you a deeper understanding of the need
          to codify the Czech language. Grammar is either descriptive or
          prescriptive. For many reasons, the approach to grammar is
          "prescriptive" in this part of the world, and "descriptive" in the
          English speaking countries. Different strokes for different folks, right?

          Mind you, I don't always agree with what the Academy does. Sometimes,
          I choose to disregard the Academy even in official interactions. I
          remember discussing this w/ you some time ago. The topic was -ova at
          the end of non-Czech female names, and you sided with the Academy. :-)

          The result is that the
          > standard language is virtually no one's native language, and educated
          Czechs
          > run around thinking they talk wrong because the natural phonology,
          morphology
          > and syntax of Czech is condemned by a group of academics who create
          and
          > maintain a sort of Czechsperanto that is not and never was the
          nation's
          > native language.

          I don't believe that something is natural just because most people do
          it. Slovo hajzlbaba, ke kteremu nize odkazujes, jsem se naucil v
          materske skolce a byla to moje babicka, nikoli nejaka Akademie, ktera
          mi rekla, ze slusne vychovany clovek tohle slovo nerika. Stejne tak
          me nutila rikat "kvuli tomu" a ne "gvuli toho," i kdyz drtive vetsine
          ostravaku zni "gvuli toho" prirozene. O zadne akademii jsem tehdy
          nemel ani tucha. Mimochodem, svedkem neceho podobneho jsem byl i v
          USA, kdyz detem kamaradu jejich babicka spilala, protoze rikaly
          "ain't."



          > >Nemusi.

          > Musi, if he wants people to shut up about it.
          That was your choice. So, what are you nagging about? :-)

          > >Slovo "imejl" patri do slangu, je cizí,

          I don't think "patri do slangu" and "je cizi" were related, Jamie.
          OTOH, I'm not sure that I'd call e-mail a slang word.

          > Here we're getting to the core of the problem. The objection of fans
          of
          > cista spisovna cestina isn't any problem with phonology or word
          formation as
          > much as it is sociological. Czechs are raised with a sort of
          linguistic
          > xenophobia that makes them get upset when "foreign" elements are used
          in
          > their language.

          SOME Czechs are raised with many types of xenophobia, not only a
          linguistic xenophobia, and many never shake them off. But ... that's
          a separate issue. Anybody who's been through a Czech elementary school
          ought to understand, that Czech vocabulary contains a large number of
          words that aren't actually Czech, and there are very good reasons for
          that. Our valley used to be a pretty multi-cultural place.


          This is not a problem for the average Russian, Anglophone,
          > German or Dutchman, or even for a Chinese, but for Czechs, once a word
          is
          > marked "cizi" it's stigmatized forever.

          It certainly isn't stigmatized forever, as you point out yourself
          further down in your own reply. Also, consider "language purity" laws
          in Poland and Slovakia. Those are certainly extreme. Contemporary
          spoken German seems to be the other extreme.

          > They'll take the American brand name
          > "Keds", create the word "kecky" and convince themselves over time that
          it's
          > of Czech origin, but not accept other foreign words that are equally
          > distorted.

          Not being aware of a word's origin doesn't necessarily mean
          "convincing themselves over time that it's of Czech origin." OTOH, it
          shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that "kecky" must've
          been taken over from another language at one point, because it has
          nothing to do with "kecat."

          > This type of "us vs. them" view of the world affects Czechs'
          > whole concept of language, not to mention many Cechs' social behavior,
          and
          > it's kind of sad that it's built into the educational system.

          You're right there, but surely there are more relevant examples of
          such behavior and/or frame of mind than those you've come up with.


          > >v psane podobe, kterou jsem uvedl
          > >se pouziva jen na prastenych diskuznich serverech typu Xtalk.
          > It's also used by well-educated professionals in business and computer
          > science, whom I deal with, and who also write quite spisovne.

          I agree with you, Jamie. Besides, I don't see what's so "prastene"
          about these servers.


          > >Cesky vyraz je elektronicka posta.

          > There seems to be a rule of Czech word formation that one were to use
          the
          > foreign word "XX", the fanatical spisovn'ák will come back with the
          remark
          > that, "Cesky vyraz je "XXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX."
          > Someone explain to me why the spisovny vyraz always has to have at
          least
          > three times the number of syllables that the foreign hruza has. I
          think it's
          > because language academies are stuffed with academics who never use
          one word
          > or syllable where 10 will do. (Well, I shouldn't say that, because
          the
          > French Academy comes up with some nice, short, attractive alternatives
          to
          > borrowed words, such as "balladeur" instead of "walkman".) But what
          kind of
          > silenec, when presented with a compact loan word like "software",
          would come
          > up with a native alternative like "programove vybaveni", with four
          times the
          > number of syllables? Cim spisovnejsi, tim mnohomluvenejsi.

          Let's compare apples with apples. "Elektronicka posta" is a
          translation of "Electronic mail." Now, go ahead and count the
          syllables. :-) E-mail is an English abbreviation of "Electronic
          mail." Strictly speaking, a Czech abbreviation of "elektronicka
          posta" isn't widely used. Re/ software: When I refer to software in
          my computer in common speech, I use "program" or "programy." A
          non-sequitor re/ length of expressions: it's not the size that
          matters. Either way. :-)))

          > >Novy vyraz by mel splnovat nektera zakladni pravidla:
          > Pokud nejde o slovo tak prastare, ze spolecnost ho jen tak prijima.
          ???

          > Jako ceske cislovky? Kdo, prosim Te, sklonuje rok, jak nas ucili v
          Narodni
          > jazykove skole, coz bylo neco jako (ani to neumim spravne): "v tisici
          deveti
          > stu devadesati trech". Typicky vzdelani Cesi sami tvrdi, ze to
          neumeji delat
          > spravne a proto tam strci slovo "rok" a rikaji: "v roce tisic devet
          set
          > devadesat tri", aby sklonovat nemuseli. Kdyz ani cesti jazykari
          nemuzou
          > spisovne sklonovat normalni cislovky, proc by se musel dobre sklonovat
          > pujcene slovo?

          V tisicim devitistem devadesatem tretim. Rekl bych, ze "v tisic
          devetset devadesat tretim" je taky spravne. I ve spisovne cestine se
          nektere veci daji rict mnoha zpusoby. Samozrejme, vetsina lidi si
          vybere ten nejjednodussi z nich. Sklonovani je proste tezke,
          neprijemne, ale je nedilnou soucasti slovanskych jazyku. To, ze je
          sklonovani cislovek slozite ale prece neznamena, ze by se "nova" slova
          nemela tvorit tak, aby se lehce sklonovala.

          Velmi casty priklad je slovo
          > "Chicago", ktere se v anglictine vyslovuje jako [s'ikago], ale Cesi
          trvaji na
          > vyslovnosti jeho "a" jako v anglickem slovu "rag", protoze jim to
          takhle zni
          > cizi -- a neda se to vubec opravit.

          Spousta Britu, dokonce i tech v BBC World Service, vyslovuje Los
          Angeles jako Los Angeliiis. To ale nic nemeni na tom, ze vyslovovat
          Chicago s "e" zni divne. Stejne tak divne jako kdyz prazane z
          Arkansasu vyslovuji Prague tak jako Cesi Chicago. Jako prazskou
          "naplaveninu" me to muze prudit, ale v konecnem dusledku je to jejich
          vec. :-)

          > >(aby znel) a nemel by byt slozeninou ciziho vyrazu a
          > >ceskeho vyrazu
          > Myslite jako "mazdic'ka" (Mazda+ic'ka), nebo kecky (Keds+ky),
          "ajbíjemko"
          > (IBM+ko), "dz'ejvísíc'ko" (JVC+c'ko) a "hajzlbaba" ("hajzl" je prece z
          > nemciny)?

          -icka -ecka a -emko -icko nejsou samostatna slova ale pripony. Nevim
          ale, jestli existuje takove pravidlo skutecne existuje. Pravda je, ze
          se rika hematopoeza a krvetvorba, ale ne hematotvorba nebo krvepoeza.
          Jinymi slovy... kdyz uz, tak uz. :-) Na druhou stranu ale existuje
          spousta spisovnych souslovi, ktera maji jedno slovo ceske a druhe
          neceske: aminokyselina, oxid uhlicity, atd. Takze treba je to typicke
          ceske pravidlo - ma milion vyjimek.

          Hajzlbaba rozhodne neni spisovne slovo. Je to nadavka, slovo hanlive.
          Kdyz nekdo rekne hajzlbabe hajzlbabo, tak ho recena posle v nejlepsim
          pripade do hajzlu. V horsim pripade ho na hajzl nepusti. V jeste
          horsim pripade to na neho praskne svemu velkemu nabouchanemu brachovi,
          ktery si na neho nekde pocka a da mu pres tlamu. :-) At uz dopadne
          jakkoliv, takovy clovek je neurvalec, hulvat a kanal. Toaletarka muze
          jine toaletarce rict hajzlbabo, protoze to nemysli hanlive a
          predpoklada se, ze je to mysleno v legraci - nebude si prece srat do
          vlastniho hnizda, ne? Stejne tak Rom muze rict druhemu Romovi
          "cikane," cernoch druhemu cernochovi "negre" a homosexual druhemu
          homosexualovi "buzno" a neni na tom nic neobvykleho ani spatneho. V
          ustech ne-Roma, ne-cernocha a ne-homosexuala to ale vzdy budou
          nadavky.

          Zaverem: Jamie, mivas zajimave postrehy, ale casto delas z komara
          velblouda a ten puvodni dobry napad ve tvych romanech (ve kterych se
          obcas opakujes jako Hrabal) uplne zapadne. Vetsinou po tretim
          odstavci prijdu o energii potrebnou k dalsimu hledani. To je ale muj
          problem.

          Pekny zbytek nedele preje
          Michal
        • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
          ... Do people in Texas really write erm ? Do you say erm ? :-)
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 4, 2001
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            In a message dated 2/4/01 8:36:17 PM, mgrant@... writes:

            >Erm, I don't know if Kinder is actually the name of the company that
            >produces them, but it IS a brand name.

            Do people in Texas really write "erm"? Do you say "erm"? :-)
          • Zdenek Mikan
            I have a question for native speakers: does e-mail, e-business and e-commerce sound completely native and neutral in English or does it have some technical
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 5, 2001
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              I have a question for native speakers: does e-mail, e-business and
              e-commerce sound completely native and neutral in English or does it have
              some technical touch?

              IMHO e-mail is not the same thing as elektronicka posta, and e-obchod is
              not the same thing as elektronicky obchod (etc.)

              Zdenek
            • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
              ... In my opinion, e-mail sounds perfectly natural and not particularly technical, if one is accustomed to using the word and not frightened of computers. In
              Message 6 of 26 , Feb 5, 2001
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                In a message dated 2/5/01 4:37:17 AM, zdenek@... writes:

                >I have a question for native speakers: does e-mail, e-business and
                >e-commerce sound completely native and neutral in English or does it have
                >some technical touch?

                In my opinion, e-mail sounds perfectly natural and not particularly
                technical, if one is accustomed to using the word and not frightened of
                computers. In fact, to me "electronic mail" sounds both technical and old
                fashioned.

                Jamie
              • Michael Grant
                ... Never. ... Not very often.... Michael -- BLUE DANUBE international communication services The Central and East European Language Source!
                Message 7 of 26 , Feb 5, 2001
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                  >Do people in Texas really write "erm"?

                  Never.

                  > Do you say "erm"? :-)

                  Not very often....

                  Michael

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                • zehrovak@dr.com
                  ... etc.), a convenient approach might be to introduce the words as e-commerce , e-business in the headlines, titles, wherever it is important to capture
                  Message 8 of 26 , Feb 5, 2001
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                    Kostas wrote:


                    >If we need to capture reader´s attention (on web, to offer services,
                    etc.), a convenient approach might be to introduce the words as
                    "e-commerce", "e-business" in the headlines, titles, wherever it is
                    important to capture the attention, and to use full Czech expressions
                    in the text explaining the services in more detail. This is what I
                    would prefer.



                    Yes, definitely. We have to think in terms of how to classify the text
                    or the section of text.

                    Is it emotive, rhetorical, affective, excitatory, dynamic, seductive,
                    stimulative, suggestive or
                    persuasive or is it primarily informative, authoritative or aspiring
                    to be objective?

                    Might we find such and such a word in a newspaper headline, or an
                    editorial or in sports
                    reporting or a Blesk article? Is it characteristic of a speech, a
                    declaration, personal writing,
                    journalism, scientific or technical style, general textbook style,
                    advertising, propaganda,
                    thesis literature, serious literature, popular literature,
                    Trivialliteratur?

                    Where does it stand on a lexical scale of formality from frozen stiff
                    to uninhibited, or on a
                    scale of affectivity from overheated to deadpan or on a scale of
                    abstraction from popular to
                    opaquely technical?

                    Is it argot or slang? Is it marketing jargon or thieves' cant? Or
                    both? :)

                    Which register does it belong to on a scale from very formal to very
                    informal?

                    (I do like making lists, don't I?)

                    Surely we should be using terms like these when we describe where and
                    when particular lexical items might be used.

                    ;)8

                    M.
                  • Michael Grant
                    ... E-mail sounds completely natural (although there are people who object to its use in the plural). E-commerce has a certain faddish sound to it. I can t
                    Message 9 of 26 , Feb 5, 2001
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                      >I have a question for native speakers: does e-mail, e-business and
                      >e-commerce sound completely native and neutral in English or does it have
                      >some technical touch?

                      "E-mail" sounds completely natural (although there are people who
                      object to its use in the plural). "E-commerce" has a certain faddish
                      sound to it. I can't recall seeing "e-business" outside this
                      discussion.

                      Michael

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                    • zehrovak@dr.com
                      ... e-commerce sound completely native and neutral in English or does it have some technical touch? Hello Zdenek and a warm welcome to Czechlist. From my
                      Message 10 of 26 , Feb 5, 2001
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                        --- In Czechlist@y..., Zdenek Mikan <zdenek@a...> wrote:
                        Zdenek wrote:

                        >I have a question for native speakers: does e-mail, e-business and
                        e-commerce sound completely native and neutral in
                        English or does it have
                        some technical touch?





                        Hello Zdenek and a warm welcome to Czechlist. From my British
                        viewpoint, 'e-mail' is
                        perfectly natural in almost every register except maybe the most
                        formal, authoritative styles
                        (conservative legalese and administrative language) and even there it
                        would not raise too
                        many eyebrows these days. After all, it is the original e-word, isn't
                        it?

                        'E-business' and 'e-commerce' still have a certain glossy wrapping on
                        them for me (but I am
                        middle-aged) and I'd say they are most likely to be found in texts
                        with a persuasive and
                        stimulative function (e.g. promotional and journalistic) rather than
                        in deadpan, highbrow
                        texts. I wouldn't call them technical. They might have started out as
                        'technical' in the sense of belonging to a narrow professional circle
                        but at the same time they were snappy-looking neologisms, candy-floss
                        for the eyes.

                        Just my individual take on the words.

                        Regards,

                        Melvyn
                      • zehrovak@dr.com
                        ... I can t recall seeing e-business outside this ... I got over one and a half million hits on Google for e-business though I must admit, you had me quite
                        Message 11 of 26 , Feb 5, 2001
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                          --- In Czechlist@y..., Michael Grant <mgrant@b...> wrote:
                          I can't recall seeing "e-business" outside this
                          > discussion.
                          >
                          I got over one and a half million hits on Google for e-business though
                          I must admit, you had me quite worried there for a moment. E-commerce
                          probably is used a lot more often.

                          M.
                        • Otto Pacholik
                          ... Than have a look at any Oracle publicity material :-) Not only Oracle uses e-business in the B2B environment (i.e. business-to-business) and e-commerce in
                          Message 12 of 26 , Feb 5, 2001
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                            > sound to it. I can't recall seeing "e-business" outside this
                            > discussion.

                            Than have a look at any Oracle publicity material :-)
                            Not only Oracle uses e-business in the B2B environment (i.e.
                            business-to-business) and e-commerce in the B2C one (business-to-consumer).
                            These are all buzzwords used within advertising of IT stuff.

                            Otto
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