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ISSUE: The Charles University?

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  • Melvyn
    Is there ever a case for using the definite article with Charles University as the head noun (apart from obvious marginal cases like this is not the Charles
    Message 1 of 27 , Mar 5, 2013
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      Is there ever a case for using the definite article with Charles University as the head noun (apart from obvious marginal cases like "this is not the Charles University that I went to. I must have been at another").

      I just can't see it, myself, but people keep telling me they were taught "the Charles University". I support my argument against by quoting analogous examples from the English-speaking world, e.g. we would never say "I went to the Victoria University" IMHO.

      I also note that a Charles University publication Universitas Carolina Pragensis has been translated into English by _PhDr_ Anna Bryson without the offending article.

      BR

      Melvyn
    • Liz
      Hi, Anna is English, that s probably why there s no article :) Cheers Liz
      Message 2 of 27 , Mar 5, 2013
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        Hi,

        Anna is English, that's probably why there's no article :)

        Cheers

        Liz

        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...> wrote:
        >
        > Is there ever a case for using the definite article with Charles University as the head noun (apart from obvious marginal cases like "this is not the Charles University that I went to. I must have been at another").
        >
        > I just can't see it, myself, but people keep telling me they were taught "the Charles University". I support my argument against by quoting analogous examples from the English-speaking world, e.g. we would never say "I went to the Victoria University" IMHO.
        >
        > I also note that a Charles University publication Universitas Carolina Pragensis has been translated into English by _PhDr_ Anna Bryson without the offending article.
        >
        > BR
        >
        > Melvyn
        >
      • wustpisk
        Can t see why not http://webapps.jhu.edu/jhuniverse/information_about_hopkins/
        Message 3 of 27 , Mar 5, 2013
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          Can't see why not

          http://webapps.jhu.edu/jhuniverse/information_about_hopkins/


          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Liz" <spacils@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi,
          >
          > Anna is English, that's probably why there's no article :)
          >
          > Cheers
          >
          > Liz
          >
          > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Is there ever a case for using the definite article with Charles University as the head noun (apart from obvious marginal cases like "this is not the Charles University that I went to. I must have been at another").
          > >
          > > I just can't see it, myself, but people keep telling me they were taught "the Charles University". I support my argument against by quoting analogous examples from the English-speaking world, e.g. we would never say "I went to the Victoria University" IMHO.
          > >
          > > I also note that a Charles University publication Universitas Carolina Pragensis has been translated into English by _PhDr_ Anna Bryson without the offending article.
          > >
          > > BR
          > >
          > > Melvyn
          > >
          >
        • Melvyn
          ... Aha. Oho. So the Charles University sounds quite normal to American ears? Well, that solves that little puzzle then. Many thanks to you and Gerry. BR
          Message 4 of 27 , Mar 5, 2013
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            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Liz" <spacils@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi,
            >
            > Anna is English, that's probably why there's no article :)


            Aha. Oho. So the Charles University sounds quite normal to American ears? Well, that solves that little puzzle then. Many thanks to you and Gerry.

            BR

            Melvyn
          • Liz
            Ugh, no. And The Johns Hopkins U surprises me ... even they seem to be happily dropping the article ( One of the perks of being president of Johns Hopkins
            Message 5 of 27 , Mar 5, 2013
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              Ugh, no. And "The Johns Hopkins U" surprises me ... even they seem to be happily dropping the article ("One of the perks of being president of Johns Hopkins University is that I have the privilege of witnessing, every day, the joy and promise of discovery. Johns Hopkins is the nation's first research university...", © Johns Hopkins University...)

              - Liz

              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...> wrote:
              >
              >

              > Aha. Oho. So the Charles University sounds quite normal to American ears? Well, that solves that little puzzle then. Many thanks to you and Gerry.
              >
              > BR
              >
              > Melvyn
              >
            • wustpisk
              Better than Charles s University , or Masaryk s University which I have also seen. Possibly grammatically correct, but ... I was trying to think of other
              Message 6 of 27 , Mar 5, 2013
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                Better than 'Charles's University', or 'Masaryk's University' which I have also seen. Possibly grammatically correct, but ...

                I was trying to think of other English language examples - only Liverpool John Moores University springs immediately to mind.

                When I was at Leeds University the official name was always emphatically 'The University of Leeds', but now according to the website the article seems to have gone.


                --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Liz" <spacils@...> wrote:
                >
                > Ugh, no. And "The Johns Hopkins U" surprises me ... even they seem to be happily dropping the article ("One of the perks of being president of Johns Hopkins University is that I have the privilege of witnessing, every day, the joy and promise of discovery. Johns Hopkins is the nation's first research university...", © Johns Hopkins University...)
                >
                > - Liz
                >
                > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                >
                > > Aha. Oho. So the Charles University sounds quite normal to American ears? Well, that solves that little puzzle then. Many thanks to you and Gerry.
                > >
                > > BR
                > >
                > > Melvyn
                > >
                >
              • James Kirchner
                No, the Charles University does NOT sound quite normal to American ears. It s important to check with Americans who are resident in America. (I m quite
                Message 7 of 27 , Mar 5, 2013
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                  No, "the Charles University" does NOT sound quite normal to American ears. It's important to check with Americans who are resident in America. (I'm quite sensitive to this, because my English got quite distorted under the weight of Czech mistakes while I lived in CZ.)

                  Jamie

                  On Mar 5, 2013, at 7:00 AM, Melvyn wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Liz" <spacils@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> Hi,
                  >>
                  >> Anna is English, that's probably why there's no article :)
                  >
                  >
                  > Aha. Oho. So the Charles University sounds quite normal to American ears? Well, that solves that little puzzle then. Many thanks to you and Gerry.
                  >
                  > BR
                  >
                  > Melvyn
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > _______________________________________________
                  > Czechlist mailing list
                  > Czechlist@...
                  > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


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                • Liz
                  Jamie, It s a different century now. Get over it. - Liz ... It s important to check with Americans who are resident in America. (I m quite sensitive to this,
                  Message 8 of 27 , Mar 5, 2013
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                    Jamie,

                    It's a different century now. Get over it.

                    - Liz


                    --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                    >
                    It's important to check with Americans who are resident in America. (I'm quite sensitive to this, because my English got quite distorted under the weight of Czech mistakes while I lived in CZ.)
                    >
                    > Jamie
                    >
                  • Melvyn
                    So many thanks to Liz, Gerry and Jamie for putting me straight eventually. :-) ... It s funny the way it works. King Charles s University (evidently there used
                    Message 9 of 27 , Mar 5, 2013
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                      So many thanks to Liz, Gerry and Jamie for putting me straight eventually. :-)

                      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...> wrote:

                      > Better than 'Charles's University', or 'Masaryk's University' which I have also seen. Possibly grammatically correct, but ...

                      It's funny the way it works. King Charles's University (evidently there used to be one in Aberdeen) or St Charles's University sound acceptable to me, but plain old Charles's University does somehow put me in mind of our old UCLA laundry, which we street urchins used to call Uncle Charlie's Lunatic Asylum. But I digress.

                      >
                      > I was trying to think of other English language examples - only Liverpool John Moores University springs immediately to mind.
                      >
                      > When I was at Leeds University the official name was always emphatically 'The University of Leeds',

                      Well, that sounds like a standard structure to me: The University of X, where X is a place name (but not a field of knowledge, e.g. "Technology"). Just as we say the Republic of XYZ but not the XYZ, unless you live in the Sudan, and even there it is debatable. Ukraine complained at the United Nations about usage of the definite article, but let us not get into that.

                      Victoria University seems a good analogy to me. There are several of them all over the world and they all eschew the "the" AFAICT.

                      BR

                      Melvyn
                    • James Kirchner
                      What am I supposed to get over? I get TM from Americans who have lived in the Czech Republic for so long that they make the same English mistakes Czechs do.
                      Message 10 of 27 , Mar 5, 2013
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                        What am I supposed to get over? I get TM from Americans who have lived in the Czech Republic for so long that they make the same English mistakes Czechs do. I have a friend who's lived in France for so long she's got a similar problem. I met an American on the train in Germany who'd lived there so many decades he could barely put an English sentence together. That can happen in any era.

                        In linguistics there's a similar phenomenon called "example fatigue", where someone working on a research paper has looked at the examples of ungrammatical sentences so many times that they start to seem right to him.

                        It's no secret that a long sojourn in a foreign country affects one's judgements about what is and isn't natural in one's native language. It's true in any century. And the longer someone's lived abroad, the more susceptible they are to the problem.

                        Jamie

                        On Mar 5, 2013, at 4:02 PM, Liz wrote:

                        > Jamie,
                        >
                        > It's a different century now. Get over it.
                        >
                        > - Liz
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        > It's important to check with Americans who are resident in America. (I'm quite sensitive to this, because my English got quite distorted under the weight of Czech mistakes while I lived in CZ.)
                        >>
                        >> Jamie
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        > _______________________________________________
                        > Czechlist mailing list
                        > Czechlist@...
                        > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


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                      • James Kirchner
                        ... Which is why The University of Economics sounds so odd. ... Then there s the Canadian propensity to name things The + [adjective] , which I think is a
                        Message 11 of 27 , Mar 5, 2013
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                          On Mar 5, 2013, at 4:24 PM, Melvyn wrote:

                          > Well, that sounds like a standard structure to me: The University of X, where X is a place name (but not a field of knowledge, e.g. "Technology").

                          Which is why "The University of Economics" sounds so odd.

                          > Just as we say the Republic of XYZ but not the XYZ, unless you live in the Sudan, and even there it is debatable. Ukraine complained at the United Nations about usage of the definite article, but let us not get into that.

                          Then there's the Canadian propensity to name things "The + [adjective]", which I think is a habit they picked up from the French speakers. I used to tune in to "The National" every night, broadcast across the border.

                          Jamie


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                        • Liz
                          ... Well then, they re shit translators. It s understandable why you would have lost touch with English when you were in Marianske Lazne in 1990-something -
                          Message 12 of 27 , Mar 5, 2013
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                            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > What am I supposed to get over? I get TM from Americans who have lived in the Czech Republic for so long that they make the same English mistakes Czechs do.


                            Well then, they're shit translators.

                            It's understandable why you would have lost touch with English when you were in Marianske Lazne in 1990-something - Facebook, Skype, podcasts, streaming and e-books did not exist yet, and you were probably the only native English speaker you knew within a 10 mile radius.

                            Just because you and some people you met in a train lost touch with English doesn't mean it must always happen to every expat. But you'll probably hold on to that belief anyway -- you do seem pretty stubborn.

                            - Liz

                            PS So excited for my sister's wedding! She and her partner have been together for over 20 years and now they can finally get married! New England rocks :)
                          • James Kirchner
                            There was plenty of opportunity to speak English to native English speakers who were fresher in the country, there were plenty of English-language media, and
                            Message 13 of 27 , Mar 5, 2013
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                              There was plenty of opportunity to speak English to native English speakers who were fresher in the country, there were plenty of English-language media, and other ways to maintain one's language skills, so the Internet hasn't worked any miracles in that regard. The English of the people who never learned Czech didn't deteriorate at all. It's a matter of how much one has immersed oneself in the local non-English culture. After all, my friend had no lack of online media, but her husband is French, her kids are French, and most of her friends are French, which is a much bigger force than anything that streams through a monitor.

                              And, I have to admit that occasionally I detect that your English judgments are mildly affected by Czech.

                              Liz, I think you're angry because I called your video stupid. You showed a vile mischaracterization of a husband and wife in natural marriage, I called it stupid, so I'm evil and you have to find something to slam at me with. It's in the open now. Just relax. That kind of embarrassment eventually goes away.

                              JK

                              On Mar 5, 2013, at 5:25 PM, Liz wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                              >>
                              >> What am I supposed to get over? I get TM from Americans who have lived in the Czech Republic for so long that they make the same English mistakes Czechs do.
                              >
                              >
                              > Well then, they're shit translators.
                              >
                              > It's understandable why you would have lost touch with English when you were in Marianske Lazne in 1990-something - Facebook, Skype, podcasts, streaming and e-books did not exist yet, and you were probably the only native English speaker you knew within a 10 mile radius.
                              >
                              > Just because you and some people you met in a train lost touch with English doesn't mean it must always happen to every expat. But you'll probably hold on to that belief anyway -- you do seem pretty stubborn.
                              >
                              > - Liz
                              >
                              > PS So excited for my sister's wedding! She and her partner have been together for over 20 years and now they can finally get married! New England rocks :)
                              >
                              > _______________________________________________
                              > Czechlist mailing list
                              > Czechlist@...
                              > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


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                            • Melvyn
                              ... In these days of inexpensive air travel, intercity buses you can hop on at a moment s notice and round-the-clock instant communications this view does
                              Message 14 of 27 , Mar 5, 2013
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                                --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:

                                >
                                > It's no secret that a long sojourn in a foreign country affects one's judgements about what is and isn't natural in one's native language.

                                In these days of inexpensive air travel, intercity buses you can hop on at a moment's notice and round-the-clock instant communications this view does strike me as charmingly anachronistic.

                                Still, I daresay there are some linguistic pitfalls if you stay put practically anywhere for any length of time, e.g. in north Manchester, where I have to constantly bite my teacherly tongue in case relatives become too afraid to open their mouths in front of me. :-O Does the substandard English that you hear around you ever have a negative effect on your language, Jamie?

                                And BTW I can never be sure as sure can be about what is natural in my native language, because there are so many varieties of it. Just thirty miles down the road in Liverpool they use words in their everyday speech that I have never heard of.

                                BR

                                Melvyn
                              • Liz
                                Jamie, you are a troll :) Have a good night Liz
                                Message 15 of 27 , Mar 5, 2013
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                                  Jamie, you are a troll :)

                                  Have a good night

                                  Liz

                                  --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > There was plenty of opportunity to speak English to native English speakers who were fresher in the country, there were plenty of English-language media, and other ways to maintain one's language skills, so the Internet hasn't worked any miracles in that regard. The English of the people who never learned Czech didn't deteriorate at all. It's a matter of how much one has immersed oneself in the local non-English culture. After all, my friend had no lack of online media, but her husband is French, her kids are French, and most of her friends are French, which is a much bigger force than anything that streams through a monitor.
                                  >
                                  > And, I have to admit that occasionally I detect that your English judgments are mildly affected by Czech.
                                  >
                                  > Liz, I think you're angry because I called your video stupid. You showed a vile mischaracterization of a husband and wife in natural marriage, I called it stupid, so I'm evil and you have to find something to slam at me with. It's in the open now. Just relax. That kind of embarrassment eventually goes away.
                                  >
                                  > JK
                                  >
                                  > On Mar 5, 2013, at 5:25 PM, Liz wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
                                  > >>
                                  > >> What am I supposed to get over? I get TM from Americans who have lived in the Czech Republic for so long that they make the same English mistakes Czechs do.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Well then, they're shit translators.
                                  > >
                                  > > It's understandable why you would have lost touch with English when you were in Marianske Lazne in 1990-something - Facebook, Skype, podcasts, streaming and e-books did not exist yet, and you were probably the only native English speaker you knew within a 10 mile radius.
                                  > >
                                  > > Just because you and some people you met in a train lost touch with English doesn't mean it must always happen to every expat. But you'll probably hold on to that belief anyway -- you do seem pretty stubborn.
                                  > >
                                  > > - Liz
                                  > >
                                  > > PS So excited for my sister's wedding! She and her partner have been together for over 20 years and now they can finally get married! New England rocks :)
                                  > >
                                  > > _______________________________________________
                                  > > Czechlist mailing list
                                  > > Czechlist@...
                                  > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > _______________________________________________
                                  > Czechlist mailing list
                                  > Czechlist@...
                                  > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                  >
                                • James Kirchner
                                  The view may be charmingly anachronistic, but I nonetheless still encounter people who have the problem. I meet many people even now who say that after
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Mar 5, 2013
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                                    The view may be charmingly anachronistic, but I nonetheless still encounter people who have the problem. I meet many people even now who say that after returning home it takes them a couple weeks to dredge their full command of their native language back up from the depths of their brains. Clearly some people never have this problem, and it somehow brings back my dim pre-adolescent memories of Orwell's "Burmese Days", which is an unjust analogy in many cases.

                                    I have adult students whose Polish and Albanian deteriorates after just a couple of years here, even if their English never gets to advanced level. (Just watch the Chaldean broadcasts on the cable channel here. Most of the people speak a pidgin language.) Thanks to technology, these people have plenty of access to media and communication in their native languages -- not to mention the company of expats from their own countries -- but their command of their native language still deteriorates.

                                    Since every other day I have to hammer standard English into a class's brains, the only way the substandard English around me (such as Ebonics and some of the working-class stuff) is that it makes my job harder when my students pick it up.

                                    There are dialect variations and variations in the standard language, and that does make it hard always to know what is natural. However, it's always pretty clear that when an American living overseas tells me, for example, that some perfectly common idiom I hear and read daily doesn't exist or that "nobody uses it", there's something wrong.

                                    Jamie

                                    On Mar 5, 2013, at 5:53 PM, Melvyn wrote:

                                    >
                                    > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >>
                                    >> It's no secret that a long sojourn in a foreign country affects one's judgements about what is and isn't natural in one's native language.
                                    >
                                    > In these days of inexpensive air travel, intercity buses you can hop on at a moment's notice and round-the-clock instant communications this view does strike me as charmingly anachronistic.
                                    >
                                    > Still, I daresay there are some linguistic pitfalls if you stay put practically anywhere for any length of time, e.g. in north Manchester, where I have to constantly bite my teacherly tongue in case relatives become too afraid to open their mouths in front of me. :-O Does the substandard English that you hear around you ever have a negative effect on your language, Jamie?
                                    >
                                    > And BTW I can never be sure as sure can be about what is natural in my native language, because there are so many varieties of it. Just thirty miles down the road in Liverpool they use words in their everyday speech that I have never heard of.
                                    >
                                    > BR
                                    >
                                    > Melvyn
                                    >
                                    > _______________________________________________
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                                  • James Kirchner
                                    Talking to a friend just now has just made me realize you guys are probably misunderstanding my assertions about people s language deteriorating. I m not
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Mar 5, 2013
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                                      Talking to a friend just now has just made me realize you guys are probably misunderstanding my assertions about people's language deteriorating.

                                      I'm not talking about people "not keeping up" with changes in their native language. That has actually changed due to technology, although Internet media and TV don't contain all language people use, so while someone may know all the recent slang, they may forget what an aglet is or the exact wording of some everyday proverb that only comes out in speech.

                                      What I'm actually talking about is how constant use of the language of the foreign country and immersion in the culture (with a small C) actually causes people problems processing their native language properly. A Swede once described it as the native language being cached on the hard drive and the new language being loaded into RAM.

                                      When the person gets back home, it takes time for the new native language to get loaded back into RAM, or whatever the brain has that's like it. The more immersed the person was, the worse the problem can be.

                                      This is why not only my English got weak in CZ, but my German also went to hell despite nearly daily exposure to German. Czech was loaded up front, so it was mostly Czech nuggets arranged for delivery.

                                      It's all about one's brain reducing effort. An old girlfriend of mine used to talk to her sister on the phone this way: "Ay, habibi! Ay azizi! Yeah, I know, because [Arabic, Arabic, Arabic, Chaldean, Arabic, Chaldean], but don't worry, because he'll just [Arabic, Arabic, Arabic, Chaldean...], you know?" She was perfectly capable of saying everything in Arabic or Chaldean that she said in English, but it was just too hard for her brain to pull the Arabic phrase off the hard drive when the English equivalent was right up there in RAM.

                                      The bad TM I get from native English speakers is not due to the fact that they have not kept up with vocabulary changes, but because their brain has become partially Czechified in their processing of English.

                                      Jamie

                                      On Mar 5, 2013, at 5:53 PM, Melvyn wrote:

                                      >
                                      > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >>
                                      >> It's no secret that a long sojourn in a foreign country affects one's judgements about what is and isn't natural in one's native language.
                                      >
                                      > In these days of inexpensive air travel, intercity buses you can hop on at a moment's notice and round-the-clock instant communications this view does strike me as charmingly anachronistic.
                                      >
                                      > Still, I daresay there are some linguistic pitfalls if you stay put practically anywhere for any length of time, e.g. in north Manchester, where I have to constantly bite my teacherly tongue in case relatives become too afraid to open their mouths in front of me. :-O Does the substandard English that you hear around you ever have a negative effect on your language, Jamie?
                                      >
                                      > And BTW I can never be sure as sure can be about what is natural in my native language, because there are so many varieties of it. Just thirty miles down the road in Liverpool they use words in their everyday speech that I have never heard of.
                                      >
                                      > BR
                                      >
                                      > Melvyn
                                      >
                                      > _______________________________________________
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                                      > Czechlist@...
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                                    • jenuwefa
                                      This is going to be one of those rare times when I actually agree with Jamie... :) Weren t we talking about this at lunch the other day, Liz? Just the other
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Mar 6, 2013
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                                        This is going to be one of those rare times when I actually agree with Jamie... :) Weren't we talking about this at lunch the other day, Liz?

                                        Just the other day, my agency sent me a really beautiful promo booklet for a photography studio for a last preprint check, telling me not to make any major changes, to just check the hyphenation, etc. as it had been proofread by a native speaker. I was so appalled by the mistakes and generally crappy English I found...I told them as such and did the corrections for a symbolic 100 CZK because I couldn't bear to see it go out like that...

                                        I know that some of my translations are weak - the problem is that I do a lot of quick turnaround jobs and don't get the time to let the translation "rest" for a while before going back to look at it again before sending it back. Sometimes I have to go back and pull up an old document for reference and am appalled by my own translation. :( If I do a job that's big and important, I usually get another native speaker to look at it before I send it back, just to cover my ass.

                                        Jennifer

                                        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Talking to a friend just now has just made me realize you guys are probably misunderstanding my assertions about people's language deteriorating.
                                        >
                                        > I'm not talking about people "not keeping up" with changes in their native language. That has actually changed due to technology, although Internet media and TV don't contain all language people use, so while someone may know all the recent slang, they may forget what an aglet is or the exact wording of some everyday proverb that only comes out in speech.
                                        >
                                        > What I'm actually talking about is how constant use of the language of the foreign country and immersion in the culture (with a small C) actually causes people problems processing their native language properly. A Swede once described it as the native language being cached on the hard drive and the new language being loaded into RAM.
                                        >
                                        > When the person gets back home, it takes time for the new native language to get loaded back into RAM, or whatever the brain has that's like it. The more immersed the person was, the worse the problem can be.
                                        >
                                        > This is why not only my English got weak in CZ, but my German also went to hell despite nearly daily exposure to German. Czech was loaded up front, so it was mostly Czech nuggets arranged for delivery.
                                        >
                                        > It's all about one's brain reducing effort. An old girlfriend of mine used to talk to her sister on the phone this way: "Ay, habibi! Ay azizi! Yeah, I know, because [Arabic, Arabic, Arabic, Chaldean, Arabic, Chaldean], but don't worry, because he'll just [Arabic, Arabic, Arabic, Chaldean...], you know?" She was perfectly capable of saying everything in Arabic or Chaldean that she said in English, but it was just too hard for her brain to pull the Arabic phrase off the hard drive when the English equivalent was right up there in RAM.
                                        >
                                        > The bad TM I get from native English speakers is not due to the fact that they have not kept up with vocabulary changes, but because their brain has become partially Czechified in their processing of English.
                                        >
                                        > Jamie
                                        >
                                        > On Mar 5, 2013, at 5:53 PM, Melvyn wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >>
                                        > >> It's no secret that a long sojourn in a foreign country affects one's judgements about what is and isn't natural in one's native language.
                                        > >
                                        > > In these days of inexpensive air travel, intercity buses you can hop on at a moment's notice and round-the-clock instant communications this view does strike me as charmingly anachronistic.
                                        > >
                                        > > Still, I daresay there are some linguistic pitfalls if you stay put practically anywhere for any length of time, e.g. in north Manchester, where I have to constantly bite my teacherly tongue in case relatives become too afraid to open their mouths in front of me. :-O Does the substandard English that you hear around you ever have a negative effect on your language, Jamie?
                                        > >
                                        > > And BTW I can never be sure as sure can be about what is natural in my native language, because there are so many varieties of it. Just thirty miles down the road in Liverpool they use words in their everyday speech that I have never heard of.
                                        > >
                                        > > BR
                                        > >
                                        > > Melvyn
                                        > >
                                        > > _______________________________________________
                                        > > Czechlist mailing list
                                        > > Czechlist@...
                                        > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > _______________________________________________
                                        > Czechlist mailing list
                                        > Czechlist@...
                                        > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                        >
                                      • Melvyn
                                        These people with the language atrophy issues are clearly not language professionals. They need to be made more aware of the pitfalls involved and what can be
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Mar 7, 2013
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                                          These people with the language atrophy issues are clearly not language professionals. They need to be made more aware of the pitfalls involved and what can be done about them, because there is nothing at all inevitable about this degeneration IMHO. I am no expert but I would point them in the direction of reasonably proficient bilinguals in their own communities. Worldwide, bilinguals are supposed to outnumber the "monos" - surely a good proportion of them are pretty proficient. They can't all be mired in a macaronic mishmash.

                                          Anyway, what you are describing takes me back to my teenage years. When I came back from my first forays to France it took me a couple of days to mentally readjust, and I daresay those who are not language professionals will often be very familiar with this phenomenon. But for me it is like acquiring any reflex, e.g. getting your sea legs...first you have to put some conscious effort into it, then it comes automatically whenever you get on board, until eventually you just whistle the Sailor's Hornpipe and away you go. Nowadays I lump that kind of slow responsiveness issue in the same category as youthful ineptitude and gaucheness (oh very well, gaucherie) in general. We grow out of it with informed practice. But OK, some people don't get the practice.

                                          I shall not bother quoting all the recently fashionable stuff about bilinguals having more adaptive brains as they get older. :-)

                                          Jamie, you have plenty of contact with dialects and substandard English, it seems, but you adjust automatically and it does not affect your finer linguistic judgement. So the same can surely also apply to those who live abroad for extended periods...?

                                          Jennifer, of course we all have our lapses when we are tired, hungry, unwell, hurried, harried or just plain darned lazy, incompetent etc. :-) But this was just as true when we were in our twenties and living elsewhere, wasn't it? Sometimes even more so?

                                          Paradoxically, I find that nowadays I have to put considerable mental effort into adjusting my behaviour after reading FB comments from my old neighbourhood in Manchester. Long punctuation-free and grammar-free passages can momentarily ensnare the unwary must resist must resist omg once you accept it the dark side is with you forever no must think of the light side whistles jauntily...

                                          BR

                                          Melvyn
                                          http://www.dailywritingtips.com/punctuation-saves-lives/
                                        • Liz
                                          Jen, What is wrong with the following sentence? The Charles University has campuses in Prague, Pilsen and Hradec Králové. Jamie believes it s important to
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Mar 7, 2013
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                                            Jen,

                                            What is wrong with the following sentence?

                                            "The Charles University has campuses in Prague, Pilsen and Hradec Králové."

                                            Jamie believes "it's important to check with Americans who are resident in America" because an expat's English will be too distorted to answer to that question.

                                            _That_ was the problem I had with Jamie's comment.

                                            Cheers

                                            Liz
                                          • James Kirchner
                                            Place the Charles University in the predicate, as a direct object or the object of a preposition, and you may be able to see that it sounds weird. I admit
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Mar 7, 2013
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                                              Place "the Charles University" in the predicate, as a direct object or the object of a preposition, and you may be able to see that it sounds weird. I admit it sounds less weird when it is the subject.

                                              Jamie

                                              On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Liz wrote:

                                              > Jen,
                                              >
                                              > What is wrong with the following sentence?
                                              >
                                              > "The Charles University has campuses in Prague, Pilsen and Hradec Kralove."
                                              >
                                              > Jamie believes "it's important to check with Americans who are resident in America" because an expat's English will be too distorted to answer to that question.
                                              >
                                              > _That_ was the problem I had with Jamie's comment.
                                              >
                                              > Cheers
                                              >
                                              > Liz
                                              >
                                              > _______________________________________________
                                              > Czechlist mailing list
                                              > Czechlist@...
                                              > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


                                              _______________________________________________
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                                              Czechlist@...
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                                            • Liz
                                              That was not a rhetorical question. - Liz
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Mar 7, 2013
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                                                That was not a rhetorical question.

                                                - Liz

                                                --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Place "the Charles University" in the predicate, as a direct object or the object of a preposition, and you may be able to see that it sounds weird. I admit it sounds less weird when it is the subject.
                                                >
                                                > Jamie
                                                >
                                                > On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Liz wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > Jen,
                                                > >
                                                > > What is wrong with the following sentence?
                                                > >
                                                > > "The Charles University has campuses in Prague, Pilsen and Hradec Kralove."
                                                > >
                                                > > Jamie believes "it's important to check with Americans who are resident in America" because an expat's English will be too distorted to answer to that question.
                                                > >
                                                > > _That_ was the problem I had with Jamie's comment.
                                                > >
                                                > > Cheers
                                                > >
                                                > > Liz
                                                > >
                                                > > _______________________________________________
                                                > > Czechlist mailing list
                                                > > Czechlist@...
                                                > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > _______________________________________________
                                                > Czechlist mailing list
                                                > Czechlist@...
                                                > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                                >
                                              • James Kirchner
                                                I did not give a rhetorical answer. JK ... _______________________________________________ Czechlist mailing list Czechlist@czechlist.org
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Mar 7, 2013
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                                                  I did not give a rhetorical answer.

                                                  JK

                                                  On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:49 AM, Liz wrote:

                                                  > That was not a rhetorical question.
                                                  >
                                                  > - Liz
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Place "the Charles University" in the predicate, as a direct object or the object of a preposition, and you may be able to see that it sounds weird. I admit it sounds less weird when it is the subject.
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Jamie
                                                  >>
                                                  >> On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Liz wrote:
                                                  >>
                                                  >>> Jen,
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>> What is wrong with the following sentence?
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>> "The Charles University has campuses in Prague, Pilsen and Hradec Kralove."
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>> Jamie believes "it's important to check with Americans who are resident in America" because an expat's English will be too distorted to answer to that question.
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>> _That_ was the problem I had with Jamie's comment.
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>> Cheers
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>> Liz
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>> _______________________________________________
                                                  >>> Czechlist mailing list
                                                  >>> Czechlist@...
                                                  >>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> _______________________________________________
                                                  >> Czechlist mailing list
                                                  >> Czechlist@...
                                                  >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                                  >>
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > _______________________________________________
                                                  > Czechlist mailing list
                                                  > Czechlist@...
                                                  > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


                                                  _______________________________________________
                                                  Czechlist mailing list
                                                  Czechlist@...
                                                  http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                                • Liz
                                                  Okay, Jen :)
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Mar 7, 2013
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                                                    Okay, Jen :)


                                                    --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > I did not give a rhetorical answer.
                                                    >
                                                    > JK
                                                    >
                                                    > On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:49 AM, Liz wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > That was not a rhetorical question.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > - Liz
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
                                                    > >>
                                                    > >> Place "the Charles University" in the predicate, as a direct object or the object of a preposition, and you may be able to see that it sounds weird. I admit it sounds less weird when it is the subject.
                                                    > >>
                                                    > >> Jamie
                                                    > >>
                                                    > >> On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Liz wrote:
                                                    > >>
                                                    > >>> Jen,
                                                    > >>>
                                                    > >>> What is wrong with the following sentence?
                                                    > >>>
                                                    > >>> "The Charles University has campuses in Prague, Pilsen and Hradec Kralove."
                                                    > >>>
                                                    > >>> Jamie believes "it's important to check with Americans who are resident in America" because an expat's English will be too distorted to answer to that question.
                                                    > >>>
                                                    > >>> _That_ was the problem I had with Jamie's comment.
                                                    > >>>
                                                    > >>> Cheers
                                                    > >>>
                                                    > >>> Liz
                                                    > >>>
                                                    > >>> _______________________________________________
                                                    > >>> Czechlist mailing list
                                                    > >>> Czechlist@
                                                    > >>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                                    > >>
                                                    > >>
                                                    > >> _______________________________________________
                                                    > >> Czechlist mailing list
                                                    > >> Czechlist@
                                                    > >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                                    > >>
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > _______________________________________________
                                                    > > Czechlist mailing list
                                                    > > Czechlist@...
                                                    > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > _______________________________________________
                                                    > Czechlist mailing list
                                                    > Czechlist@...
                                                    > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                                    >
                                                  • James Kirchner
                                                    If you re only addressing Jen, then send it directly to Jen. Anything on the list is public. Jamie ... _______________________________________________
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Mar 7, 2013
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                                                      If you're only addressing Jen, then send it directly to Jen. Anything on the list is public.

                                                      Jamie

                                                      On Mar 7, 2013, at 9:06 AM, Liz wrote:

                                                      > Okay, Jen :)
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                                                      >>
                                                      >> I did not give a rhetorical answer.
                                                      >>
                                                      >> JK
                                                      >>
                                                      >> On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:49 AM, Liz wrote:
                                                      >>
                                                      >>> That was not a rhetorical question.
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>> - Liz
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
                                                      >>>>
                                                      >>>> Place "the Charles University" in the predicate, as a direct object or the object of a preposition, and you may be able to see that it sounds weird. I admit it sounds less weird when it is the subject.
                                                      >>>>
                                                      >>>> Jamie
                                                      >>>>
                                                      >>>> On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Liz wrote:
                                                      >>>>
                                                      >>>>> Jen,
                                                      >>>>>
                                                      >>>>> What is wrong with the following sentence?
                                                      >>>>>
                                                      >>>>> "The Charles University has campuses in Prague, Pilsen and Hradec Kralove."
                                                      >>>>>
                                                      >>>>> Jamie believes "it's important to check with Americans who are resident in America" because an expat's English will be too distorted to answer to that question.
                                                      >>>>>
                                                      >>>>> _That_ was the problem I had with Jamie's comment.
                                                      >>>>>
                                                      >>>>> Cheers
                                                      >>>>>
                                                      >>>>> Liz
                                                      >>>>>
                                                      >>>>> _______________________________________________
                                                      >>>>> Czechlist mailing list
                                                      >>>>> Czechlist@
                                                      >>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                                      >>>>
                                                      >>>>
                                                      >>>> _______________________________________________
                                                      >>>> Czechlist mailing list
                                                      >>>> Czechlist@
                                                      >>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                                      >>>>
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>> _______________________________________________
                                                      >>> Czechlist mailing list
                                                      >>> Czechlist@...
                                                      >>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >> _______________________________________________
                                                      >> Czechlist mailing list
                                                      >> Czechlist@...
                                                      >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                                      >>
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > _______________________________________________
                                                      > Czechlist mailing list
                                                      > Czechlist@...
                                                      > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


                                                      _______________________________________________
                                                      Czechlist mailing list
                                                      Czechlist@...
                                                      http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                                    • James Kirchner
                                                      Melvyn, I know plenty of good language professionals who admit that their command of their native language is affected by prolonged immersion in a different
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Mar 7, 2013
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                                                        Melvyn, I know plenty of good language professionals who admit that their command of their native language is affected by prolonged immersion in a different language, and they have to develop strategies for dealing with the problem.

                                                        The problem may not be evident in some contexts, such as when teaching an intermediate ESL class, or in some writing, but in other situations it's evident that the language has deteriorated in deeper ways, not because the people lost their language, but because certain things get cached in the brain and are temporarily less accessible. In my case, I could not drag up the names of some public figures from back home, and I could not yank up the lyrics to Christmas carols or some other songs. These all returned to me once I was home.

                                                        In fact, this is one reason interpreting is a special skill that not every translator can do. Some people are very good at (and have trained themselves) to access all the language in their brain on the fly, while others have to do work where they get more time to pull things up.

                                                        When I am exposed to nonstandard dialects of English in my own environment, it may or may not affect my speech, depending on the type of exposure. I tend to absorb the language around me very fast, so, for example, five minutes talking to someone across the river in Canada changes my pronunciation without my wanting it to, although not my grammar, because those Canadians speak standard English but pronounce it differently.

                                                        However, when I worked a low-pay factory job for a few years with speakers of "African-American Vernacular English", that 40 hours a week around a different grammatical structure actually did affect my grammatical judgements. I didn't get all the way to saying things like, "You shoulda been told me," (i.e. you should have told me a very long time ago) or, "I will return and be back" (i.e. I will return and stay), but I was liable to come out with things like, "Did you ever be sitting in front of TV and..." That's quite analogous to someone just coming home from the CR and using English continuous tenses inappropriately because his brain has temporarily conflated them with the Czech imperfective.

                                                        I don't think it has anything to do with whether someone is a "language professional" or not. It probably has more to do with how deeply the expat absorbs his surroundings and the mental boundaries he sets. Americans in Marianske Lazne who barely integrated themselves into the local society never had any problem at all. Those of us who didn't feel it necessary to cling to our own expat community (in fact, very little of my social life was with English speakers) had more trouble.

                                                        One thing I also wonder is whether the problem is different for people whose native dialect of their own language is not the standard one. Those people have to monitor their own language a good deal of the time, so they may not be as susceptible to the creeping influence of a second language on their first. Other people (I'm one of them) grew up not having to pay much attention to their language at all, because they already spoke their country's standard dialect, so since they aren't monitoring monitoring their English much, influences creep in.

                                                        Now here's a strange one: When I was living in the CR, my spoken German and French shriveled to almost nothing. When I returned home, I decided I'd better drill them to get them back. I chose German first, but as it turned out, I didn't need to drill French much, because drilling German also brought back my French.

                                                        Jamie

                                                        On Mar 7, 2013, at 6:39 AM, Melvyn wrote:

                                                        >
                                                        > These people with the language atrophy issues are clearly not language professionals. They need to be made more aware of the pitfalls involved and what can be done about them, because there is nothing at all inevitable about this degeneration IMHO. I am no expert but I would point them in the direction of reasonably proficient bilinguals in their own communities. Worldwide, bilinguals are supposed to outnumber the "monos" - surely a good proportion of them are pretty proficient. They can't all be mired in a macaronic mishmash.
                                                        >
                                                        > Anyway, what you are describing takes me back to my teenage years. When I came back from my first forays to France it took me a couple of days to mentally readjust, and I daresay those who are not language professionals will often be very familiar with this phenomenon. But for me it is like acquiring any reflex, e.g. getting your sea legs...first you have to put some conscious effort into it, then it comes automatically whenever you get on board, until eventually you just whistle the Sailor's Hornpipe and away you go. Nowadays I lump that kind of slow responsiveness issue in the same category as youthful ineptitude and gaucheness (oh very well, gaucherie) in general. We grow out of it with informed practice. But OK, some people don't get the practice.
                                                        >
                                                        > I shall not bother quoting all the recently fashionable stuff about bilinguals having more adaptive brains as they get older. :-)
                                                        >
                                                        > Jamie, you have plenty of contact with dialects and substandard English, it seems, but you adjust automatically and it does not affect your finer linguistic judgement. So the same can surely also apply to those who live abroad for extended periods...?
                                                        >
                                                        > Jennifer, of course we all have our lapses when we are tired, hungry, unwell, hurried, harried or just plain darned lazy, incompetent etc. :-) But this was just as true when we were in our twenties and living elsewhere, wasn't it? Sometimes even more so?
                                                        >
                                                        > Paradoxically, I find that nowadays I have to put considerable mental effort into adjusting my behaviour after reading FB comments from my old neighbourhood in Manchester. Long punctuation-free and grammar-free passages can momentarily ensnare the unwary must resist must resist omg once you accept it the dark side is with you forever no must think of the light side whistles jauntily...
                                                        >
                                                        > BR
                                                        >
                                                        > Melvyn
                                                        > http://www.dailywritingtips.com/punctuation-saves-lives/
                                                        >
                                                        > _______________________________________________
                                                        > Czechlist mailing list
                                                        > Czechlist@...
                                                        > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


                                                        _______________________________________________
                                                        Czechlist mailing list
                                                        Czechlist@...
                                                        http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                                      • Liz
                                                        Now I understand you must have missed something as well. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/51067 - Liz
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Mar 7, 2013
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                                                          Now I understand you must have missed something as well.
                                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/51067

                                                          - Liz

                                                          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > If you're only addressing Jen, then send it directly to Jen. Anything on the list is public.
                                                          >
                                                          > Jamie
                                                          >
                                                          > On Mar 7, 2013, at 9:06 AM, Liz wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > > Okay, Jen :)
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
                                                          > >>
                                                          > >> I did not give a rhetorical answer.
                                                          > >>
                                                          > >> JK
                                                          > >>
                                                          > >> On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:49 AM, Liz wrote:
                                                          > >>
                                                          > >>> That was not a rhetorical question.
                                                          > >>>
                                                          > >>> - Liz
                                                          > >>>
                                                          > >>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
                                                          > >>>>
                                                          > >>>> Place "the Charles University" in the predicate, as a direct object or the object of a preposition, and you may be able to see that it sounds weird. I admit it sounds less weird when it is the subject.
                                                          > >>>>
                                                          > >>>> Jamie
                                                          > >>>>
                                                          > >>>> On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Liz wrote:
                                                          > >>>>
                                                          > >>>>> Jen,
                                                          > >>>>>
                                                          > >>>>> What is wrong with the following sentence?
                                                          > >>>>>
                                                          > >>>>> "The Charles University has campuses in Prague, Pilsen and Hradec Kralove."
                                                          > >>>>>
                                                          > >>>>> Jamie believes "it's important to check with Americans who are resident in America" because an expat's English will be too distorted to answer to that question.
                                                          > >>>>>
                                                          > >>>>> _That_ was the problem I had with Jamie's comment.
                                                          > >>>>>
                                                          > >>>>> Cheers
                                                          > >>>>>
                                                          > >>>>> Liz
                                                          > >>>>>
                                                          > >>>>> _______________________________________________
                                                          > >>>>> Czechlist mailing list
                                                          > >>>>> Czechlist@
                                                          > >>>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                                          > >>>>
                                                          > >>>>
                                                          > >>>> _______________________________________________
                                                          > >>>> Czechlist mailing list
                                                          > >>>> Czechlist@
                                                          > >>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                                          > >>>>
                                                          > >>>
                                                          > >>>
                                                          > >>> _______________________________________________
                                                          > >>> Czechlist mailing list
                                                          > >>> Czechlist@
                                                          > >>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                                          > >>
                                                          > >>
                                                          > >> _______________________________________________
                                                          > >> Czechlist mailing list
                                                          > >> Czechlist@
                                                          > >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                                          > >>
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > _______________________________________________
                                                          > > Czechlist mailing list
                                                          > > Czechlist@...
                                                          > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > _______________________________________________
                                                          > Czechlist mailing list
                                                          > Czechlist@...
                                                          > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                                          >
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