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RE: TERM: e-commerce

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  • Otto Pacholik
    ... What do you have against Michael s suggestion? I like it. Even though I am not going to wear e-boty ;-) Otto
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 2, 2001
      > > Anyone for "e-obchod"?
      > > Michael
      >
      > You´re kidding, aren´t you?:-)) Tomorrow, we will be wearing e-boty, etc.
      >
      > K.

      What do you have against Michael's suggestion? I like it. Even though I am
      not going to wear e-boty ;-)

      Otto
    • Michal Ginter
      I see no reason to use e-commerce or e-komerce in Czech other than sloppiness. Besides, komerce and commerce are false cognates. Onto e-obchod. I feel
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 2, 2001
        I see no reason to use "e-commerce" or "e-komerce" in Czech other than
        sloppiness. Besides, komerce and commerce are false cognates.

        Onto e-obchod. I feel abbreviations are formed (and treated)
        differently in Czech. If I needed to abbreviate elektronicky obchod,
        I'd write el. obchod, but I'd never say it out loud. While you can
        say "e.g." in English, saying "napr." in Czech would be pretty
        awkward, or sound funny.

        M.

        __________________________________________________________________

        > Message: 14
        > Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:04:14 -0600
        > From: Michael Grant <mgrant@...>
        > Subject: Re: TERM: e-commerce

        > >What do you think of translation of "e-commerce" to Czech? I have
        seen
        > >"e-komerce" in various sources, I just do not like it very much. What
        about
        > >leaving it as "e-commerce"? (Similarly to "e-mail").

        > Anyone for "e-obchod"?
        > Michael
      • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
        ... But ultimately the Czechs are going to shorten elektronicky obchod in some way. For example, I never heard anyone say korespondencni listek unless they
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 3, 2001
          In a message dated 2/3/01 2:06:53 AM, michalginter@... writes:

          >I see no reason to use "e-commerce" or "e-komerce" in Czech other than
          >sloppiness. Besides, komerce and commerce are false cognates.
          >
          >Onto e-obchod. I feel abbreviations are formed (and treated)
          >differently in Czech. If I needed to abbreviate elektronicky obchod,
          >I'd write el. obchod, but I'd never say it out loud. While you can
          >say "e.g." in English, saying "napr." in Czech would be pretty
          >awkward, or sound funny.

          But ultimately the Czechs are going to shorten elektronicky obchod in some
          way. For example, I never heard anyone say "korespondencni listek" unless
          they were telling me, a foreigner, not to say "korespond'ák", which, of
          course, is what the Czechs said themselves despite the fact that they always
          told me not to say it. I seldom heard people say "technicke vybaveni" and
          all those other computer "vybaveni", in real life, although someone must say
          it. And even a chocolate "Überraschungsei" was called a "kindervajicko" by
          kids and their parents, instead of a "detske vajicko" as the sign said. I
          seldom hear Czech friends say "elektronicka posta", but they always say
          something that sounds like "ímejl", so why wouldn't they say "e-obchod" and
          pronounce it like "íobchod"?

          Jamie
        • Zdenek Bobek
          Zdar Ja se musim pridat, protoze e-obchod a e.komerce a podobny veci jsou v cestine proste stejne sileny jako jako kindrcokolada. To je proste proti zasadam,
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 3, 2001
            Zdar

            Ja se musim pridat, protoze e-obchod a e.komerce a podobny veci jsou v
            cestine proste stejne sileny jako jako kindrcokolada. To je proste proti
            zasadam, jakymi cesky jazyk tvori slova. Tyto zasady plati prestoze jsou
            samotnymi rodilymi mluvcimi casto porusovany.
            kindrcokolada je spatne, spravne by melo byt cokolada kinder (taky nerikame
            Radegastpivo ale pivo Radegast" nebo - ooo hruzo hruzouci - "tojotauto" ale
            "auto Toyota")

            Vyraz e-business je v cestine elektronicky obchod a prinese-li zivot nejakou
            zkratku, bude tato jazykove akceptovatelna pouze tehdy nebude-li porusovat
            principy spravne tvorby novych slov v cestine. Proto je korespondak
            pripustny, ze zachovava tyto principy, i kdyz lide jaksi citi, ze je to
            vyraz hovorovy a ve sve neinformovanosti rikaji cizincum mluvicim cesky, aby
            to slovo nepouzivali, protoze si mysli, ze cizinec musi mluvit spisovne.
            Nemusi.

            Slovo "imejl" patri do slangu, je cizí, v psane podobe, kterou jsem uvedl se
            pouziva jen na prastenych diskuznich serverech typu Xtalk. Cesky vyraz je
            elektronicka posta.

            Proste v cestine se pri tvoreni novych slov neda udelat cokoliv. Novy vyraz
            by mel splnovat nektera zakladni pravidla: mel by se dobre sklonovat nebo
            casovat, jinak se tezko ujme, nemel by obsahovat pro cestinu neobvykle
            skupiny samohlasek (aby znel) a nemel by byt slozeninou ciziho vyrazu a
            ceskeho vyrazu (viz napriklad kdysi medii vlacena a nalezite zostuzena
            "laktokrupicova kase"). Samozrejme, ze potreba novych slov pojmenovavajicich
            nove skutecnosti plodi nejruznejsi novinky. Vetsina z nich jsou potraty,
            neco jsou zmrzacena nedochudcata a jen minimum projde testem zivota a
            konkurzem a dostane pozehnani akademiku. I kdyz ani ti nejsou neomylni,
            kdysi stvorili slovo magnetoskop, ktere se proste nechytlo a misto nej
            vyrostla sazenicka take cizi, ale prirozenejsi: video. Jsme prekladatele,
            zachazejme prosim, s nasimi pracovnimi jazyky ohleduplne.

            Bob
          • Miroslav Herold
            ************************************************************** Ing.Miroslav HEROLD, CSc. tlumocník/prekladatel/poradenství/volný novinár tel.: xx420 2 5155
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 4, 2001
              **************************************************************
              Ing.Miroslav HEROLD, CSc.

              tlumocník/prekladatel/poradenství/volný novinár
              tel.: xx420 2 5155 4950
              mobil: 0606 865870
              ***********************************************************
              but they always say
              something that sounds like "ímejl", so why wouldn't they say "e-obchod" and
              pronounce it like "íobchod"?

              Jamie

              I assume you have hit the nail. There is a difference between saying and
              writing. We can speak of korespondak, sending e-mail with pronounciation
              mentioned above. But as professional translators we should not IMHO commit
              these incorrect Czech forms to paper. Therefore in writing always
              elektronicka posta and korespondencni listek.
              BR

              Mirek
            • MK jazykové centrum
              In fact there is a monthly called e-biz - a Czech one (www.ebiz-mag.cz). BTW, all rubrics there are in English (Start-up, E-business, Know-how, Exit, ...).
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 5, 2001
                In fact there is a monthly called "e-biz" - a Czech one (www.ebiz-mag.cz).
                BTW, all rubrics there are in English (Start-up, E-business, Know-how, Exit,
                ...). Just thinking for 5 mins about translation of "know-how" and have no
                sane idea.
                Martin Koci
              • Zdenek Bobek
                ... Exit, ... Know-how is difficult to translate. In SOME cases you may use technologie or znalosti , but it is not thr right Czech term. It is very
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 5, 2001
                  Martin Koci wrote:

                  > In fact there is a monthly called "e-biz" - a Czech one (www.ebiz-mag.cz).
                  > BTW, all rubrics there are in English (Start-up, E-business, Know-how,
                  Exit,
                  > ...). Just thinking for 5 mins about translation of "know-how" and have no
                  > sane idea.

                  Know-how is difficult to translate. In SOME cases you may use "technologie"
                  or "znalosti", but it is not thr right Czech term. It is very difficult. I
                  usually do not translate this word.

                  Bob
                • zehrovak@dr.com
                  ... Ahoj vespolek, ahoj Bobe, ... mentality To je teda pravda! =8o ... Jezismarja. Nechces nam rici, ze povidani na Czechlistu je pro tebe nakej druh terapie a
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 5, 2001
                    --- In Czechlist@y..., "Zdenek Bobek" <zdenek.bobek@w...> wrote:

                    Ahoj vespolek, ahoj Bobe,

                    > In fact I enjoy the discussion, I can learn a lot about people's
                    mentality

                    To je teda pravda! =8o

                    > as well as mine.

                    Jezismarja. Nechces nam rici, ze povidani na Czechlistu je pro tebe
                    nakej druh terapie a
                    sebepoznavani? ==8O (mam dlouhe vlasy)


                    Ale rad zase vidim tvoje ctive prispevky v Czechlistu, Bobicku. A vzdy
                    se mi to strasne libi kdyz nam rikas ty, ze jsme ukecani my! :)



                    Ja jsem zvadav jak velke je to rozpeti mezi spisovnou a hovorovou
                    cestinou a rad bych vedel
                    jestli ho muzeme porovnat uzitecnym zpusobem s takovym rozpetim v
                    jinych jazycich.

                    Asi by bylo na miste citovat naseho stareho kamarada Pavla Eisnera.
                    Psal sice pred
                    pulstoletim a prece - to, co rika o spisovne a hovorove cestine neni
                    asi uplne od veci i dneska.
                    Omlouvam se predem, ze je to dlouhy citat; pro uspechaneho ctenare
                    jsem zduraznil jeho
                    stezejni teze:

                    O kazdem narodnim jazyce plati, ze dokud neustrne, zije zivotem dvojim
                    - mluvou hovorovou
                    a jazykem spisovnym. Rozdily mezi obema soustavami mohou byt male i
                    velke; byvaji take v
                    dejinach narodnich jazyku promenlive, jednou se spisovny jazyk s
                    hovorovou mluvou sblizi,
                    jindy se od ni oddali radikalneji. Tak na pr. pusobi dnes francouzskym
                    jazykovym teoretikum
                    starosti znacne rozpeti mezi franstinou spisovnou a parizskou mluvou
                    hovorovou.

                    Jak je v techto vecech s cestinou? Take v ni je mezi obema soustavami
                    rozpeti. Byvalo
                    mensi, za stredoveku a pak az do Bile hory a po ni; v literature
                    obrozeneho naroda jde o
                    rozpeti velmi znacne, dosahuje vrcholu lumirovci, jazykem ceske
                    literatury do prvni valky
                    svetove; od tech dob prozivame sblizovani obou soustav, a to ve velmi
                    pozoruhode podobe
                    krivek sbihavych: cestina spisovna se jakymsi zobcanstenim,
                    zcivilnenim priblizuje k vyrazivu
                    mluvy obcovaci, cestina obcovaci zas, prejima leccos z cestiny
                    spisovne, 'zespisovnuje' se.
                    ALE PORAD JESTE JE ROZPETI MEZI OBEMA SOUSTAVAMI V CESTINE NADMIRU
                    VELKE, SROVNAME-LI JE S ROZPETIM V JINYCH JAZYCICH, rozumej: s
                    rozpetim, jez v
                    nich je mezi usem spisovnym a hovorovym usem vzdelane narodni
                    spolecnosti. Snad
                    neuskodi, srovname li nas stav veci se stavem nemeckym: POKUD JDE O
                    VYSLOVNOST,
                    JE U NAS ROZPETI _MENSI_ NEZ U NEMCU. Vyslovujeme sice line, nedbale,
                    lajdacky,
                    ale celkem bez regionalnich zvlastnosti. Sotva u nas nekdo podle pouhe
                    vyslovnosti pozna,
                    mluvi-li Cech od Domazlic nebo od Uherskoho Hradiste. Zcela jinak u
                    Nemcu, z nichz i
                    nejvzdelanejsi a jazykove nejpeclivejsi prozradi svou vyslovnosti, ze
                    je z Vidne nebo Berlina.

                    KARTA SE VSAK IHNED OBRATI, PRIHLEDNEME-LI K TVAROSLOVI, SKLADBE,
                    FRAZEOLOGII. ZDE VSUDE JSOU U VZDELANEHO NEMCE ROZDILY MEZI JEHO
                    JAZYKOVYM USEM HOVOROVYM A USEM SPISOVNYM CELKEM NEPATRNE. Omezi se
                    na to, ze si vzdelany Nemec v hovorove praxi odpusti vyrazy a obraty
                    slohu
                    kancelarskeho....To je rozpeti daleko mensi nez u nas. V CESTINE SE
                    USUS SPISOVNY S
                    HOVOROVYM ROZCHAZI TAK ZNACNE, ZE JDE O DVOJI DO ZNACNE MIRY AUTOMNI
                    SOUSTAVU JAZYKOVYCH PROSTREDKU.

                    Ve stati, kterou byste si opravdu meli precist ('Rec a sloh' ve
                    sborniku Cteni o jazyce),
                    upozornuje prof. Vilem Mathesius krasne na rozdil mezi souslovim
                    'obuvnicky ucen' a
                    souslovim 'sevcovsky ucednik'. Prvni souslovi je papir, druhe je zivot
                    sam. Nepohneme vsak
                    napr. zivnostenske zakonodarstvi, aby rikalo sevcovsky ucednik. Ale
                    dopsav predpisy pro
                    pokracovaci skoly pro obuvnicke ucne, odlozi ministersky rada pero a
                    bude trebas vypravovat
                    anekdotu o sevcovskem ucedniku, zajiste ne anekdotu o obuvnickem ucni.
                    To je - v kostce -
                    to rozpeti mezi nasim usem spisovnym a usem hovorovym."

                    --------

                    But what about English? Are the brain and heart of the language really
                    more within calling
                    distance of each other than is supposedly the case with Czech?

                    I wonder. I find that analyses of differences in Czech style often use
                    a three-tier model. For English I'd say it is much more common and
                    useful to
                    follow the scheme in the Comprehensive Grammar of English by Sir
                    Randolph Quirk
                    (beautiful name) and use a five-tier system:

                    VERY FORMAL: bombastic, ceremonial, with use of archaisms, 'inkhorn'
                    words, still typical
                    of some legalese in British English at least. "I deem her more
                    sagacious than I"

                    FORMAL: the 'written' standard, characteristic of business English: "I
                    consider her to be
                    more intelligent than I am"

                    NEUTRAL: language which stylistically does not call attention to
                    itself: "I think she is cleverer
                    than I am"

                    INFORMAL: colloquial, characteristic of speech among friends and
                    family: "I reckon she's
                    smarter than me"

                    VERY INFORMAL: low colloquial, slang, argot etc: "Cow's a right
                    bleedin know-
                    it-all, if you ask me'"

                    (How do you like my examples? BTW should any sagacious individuals
                    question the
                    synonymy of sagacious, clever, intelligent and know-it-all or the
                    comparative form
                    'cleverer/more clever', I shall get very informal indeed. No asterisks
                    from me, I can tell you!
                    >-<)


                    I would say that the _very formal_ style characteristic of some
                    legalese and bureaucratese in
                    British English, is just as remote from the spoken 'informal' language
                    as is the knottiest
                    bureaucratic 'spisovna cestina' from 'hovorova'. True, this very
                    formal style is fading out of
                    use these days but we do come up with such baffling legal jargon once
                    in a while, don't we?

                    So anyway, my point is that although English formal usage might be
                    closer to informal
                    usage than spisovna cestina is to hovorova (though how do we prove
                    these things
                    conclusively one way or the other?), we do also have our own
                    linguistic 'silverware' which is
                    brought out occasionally to dazzle and impress.





                    BTW I think Pavel Eisner had a similar five-tier notion of the
                    stylistic strata in Czech. I quote:

                    1. Ucitel del, ze se ke kvasu zjevi v hodinu urcenou
                    2. Ucitel pravil, ze se k hostine dostavi vcas
                    3. Ucitel rekl, ze na ten obed prijde vcas
                    4. Ucitelsky rek, ze na ten obed prijde vcas
                    5. Ucitelskej prej tu na tu bastu bude jako na koni

                    But perhaps this just goes to show that if we do use a five-tier model
                    for Czech, very formal
                    as opposed to just formal language is more fit for the stage (?) than
                    for legal contracts.

                    Sorry if I've gone on a bit.

                    M.
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