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Re: [Czechlist] TERM: e-commerce

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  • Kostas Zgafas
    ... about ... You´re kidding, aren´t you?:-)) Tomorrow, we will be wearing e-boty, etc. K.
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 2 10:19 AM
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      > >What do you think of translation of "e-commerce" to Czech? I have seen
      > >"e-komerce" in various sources, I just do not like it very much. What
      about
      > >leaving it as "e-commerce"? (Similarly to "e-mail").
      >
      > Anyone for "e-obchod"?
      > Michael

      You´re kidding, aren´t you?:-)) Tomorrow, we will be wearing e-boty, etc.

      K.
    • Barendregt
      ‘E-obchod’ is actually very common usage (any search will prove that) and ‘elektronicke obchodovani’ seems to be the ‘official’ equivalent for
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 2 11:02 AM
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        ‘E-obchod’ is actually very common usage (any search will prove that) and
        ‘elektronicke obchodovani’ seems to be the ‘official’ equivalent for
        e-commerce (see www.mpo.cz <http://www.mpo.cz/> under Obchod - website of
        Ministerstvo prumyslu a obchodu). However, ‘e-komerce’ seems to be the
        prevalent usage while ‘e-commerce’ does not appear to be too frequently used
        in Czech.

        And what is the e-boty parallel, Kostas? Do I detect a bit of reluctance to
        join in celebrating the bright e-future??

        Tom


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Otto Pacholik
        ... What do you have against Michael s suggestion? I like it. Even though I am not going to wear e-boty ;-) Otto
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 2 11:16 AM
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          > > Anyone for "e-obchod"?
          > > Michael
          >
          > You´re kidding, aren´t you?:-)) Tomorrow, we will be wearing e-boty, etc.
          >
          > K.

          What do you have against Michael's suggestion? I like it. Even though I am
          not going to wear e-boty ;-)

          Otto
        • Michal Ginter
          I see no reason to use e-commerce or e-komerce in Czech other than sloppiness. Besides, komerce and commerce are false cognates. Onto e-obchod. I feel
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 2 11:00 PM
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            I see no reason to use "e-commerce" or "e-komerce" in Czech other than
            sloppiness. Besides, komerce and commerce are false cognates.

            Onto e-obchod. I feel abbreviations are formed (and treated)
            differently in Czech. If I needed to abbreviate elektronicky obchod,
            I'd write el. obchod, but I'd never say it out loud. While you can
            say "e.g." in English, saying "napr." in Czech would be pretty
            awkward, or sound funny.

            M.

            __________________________________________________________________

            > Message: 14
            > Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:04:14 -0600
            > From: Michael Grant <mgrant@...>
            > Subject: Re: TERM: e-commerce

            > >What do you think of translation of "e-commerce" to Czech? I have
            seen
            > >"e-komerce" in various sources, I just do not like it very much. What
            about
            > >leaving it as "e-commerce"? (Similarly to "e-mail").

            > Anyone for "e-obchod"?
            > Michael
          • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
            ... But ultimately the Czechs are going to shorten elektronicky obchod in some way. For example, I never heard anyone say korespondencni listek unless they
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 3 4:40 AM
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              In a message dated 2/3/01 2:06:53 AM, michalginter@... writes:

              >I see no reason to use "e-commerce" or "e-komerce" in Czech other than
              >sloppiness. Besides, komerce and commerce are false cognates.
              >
              >Onto e-obchod. I feel abbreviations are formed (and treated)
              >differently in Czech. If I needed to abbreviate elektronicky obchod,
              >I'd write el. obchod, but I'd never say it out loud. While you can
              >say "e.g." in English, saying "napr." in Czech would be pretty
              >awkward, or sound funny.

              But ultimately the Czechs are going to shorten elektronicky obchod in some
              way. For example, I never heard anyone say "korespondencni listek" unless
              they were telling me, a foreigner, not to say "korespond'ák", which, of
              course, is what the Czechs said themselves despite the fact that they always
              told me not to say it. I seldom heard people say "technicke vybaveni" and
              all those other computer "vybaveni", in real life, although someone must say
              it. And even a chocolate "Überraschungsei" was called a "kindervajicko" by
              kids and their parents, instead of a "detske vajicko" as the sign said. I
              seldom hear Czech friends say "elektronicka posta", but they always say
              something that sounds like "ímejl", so why wouldn't they say "e-obchod" and
              pronounce it like "íobchod"?

              Jamie
            • Zdenek Bobek
              Zdar Ja se musim pridat, protoze e-obchod a e.komerce a podobny veci jsou v cestine proste stejne sileny jako jako kindrcokolada. To je proste proti zasadam,
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 3 5:30 AM
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                Zdar

                Ja se musim pridat, protoze e-obchod a e.komerce a podobny veci jsou v
                cestine proste stejne sileny jako jako kindrcokolada. To je proste proti
                zasadam, jakymi cesky jazyk tvori slova. Tyto zasady plati prestoze jsou
                samotnymi rodilymi mluvcimi casto porusovany.
                kindrcokolada je spatne, spravne by melo byt cokolada kinder (taky nerikame
                Radegastpivo ale pivo Radegast" nebo - ooo hruzo hruzouci - "tojotauto" ale
                "auto Toyota")

                Vyraz e-business je v cestine elektronicky obchod a prinese-li zivot nejakou
                zkratku, bude tato jazykove akceptovatelna pouze tehdy nebude-li porusovat
                principy spravne tvorby novych slov v cestine. Proto je korespondak
                pripustny, ze zachovava tyto principy, i kdyz lide jaksi citi, ze je to
                vyraz hovorovy a ve sve neinformovanosti rikaji cizincum mluvicim cesky, aby
                to slovo nepouzivali, protoze si mysli, ze cizinec musi mluvit spisovne.
                Nemusi.

                Slovo "imejl" patri do slangu, je cizí, v psane podobe, kterou jsem uvedl se
                pouziva jen na prastenych diskuznich serverech typu Xtalk. Cesky vyraz je
                elektronicka posta.

                Proste v cestine se pri tvoreni novych slov neda udelat cokoliv. Novy vyraz
                by mel splnovat nektera zakladni pravidla: mel by se dobre sklonovat nebo
                casovat, jinak se tezko ujme, nemel by obsahovat pro cestinu neobvykle
                skupiny samohlasek (aby znel) a nemel by byt slozeninou ciziho vyrazu a
                ceskeho vyrazu (viz napriklad kdysi medii vlacena a nalezite zostuzena
                "laktokrupicova kase"). Samozrejme, ze potreba novych slov pojmenovavajicich
                nove skutecnosti plodi nejruznejsi novinky. Vetsina z nich jsou potraty,
                neco jsou zmrzacena nedochudcata a jen minimum projde testem zivota a
                konkurzem a dostane pozehnani akademiku. I kdyz ani ti nejsou neomylni,
                kdysi stvorili slovo magnetoskop, ktere se proste nechytlo a misto nej
                vyrostla sazenicka take cizi, ale prirozenejsi: video. Jsme prekladatele,
                zachazejme prosim, s nasimi pracovnimi jazyky ohleduplne.

                Bob
              • Miroslav Herold
                ************************************************************** Ing.Miroslav HEROLD, CSc. tlumocník/prekladatel/poradenství/volný novinár tel.: xx420 2 5155
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 4 2:24 AM
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                  **************************************************************
                  Ing.Miroslav HEROLD, CSc.

                  tlumocník/prekladatel/poradenství/volný novinár
                  tel.: xx420 2 5155 4950
                  mobil: 0606 865870
                  ***********************************************************
                  but they always say
                  something that sounds like "ímejl", so why wouldn't they say "e-obchod" and
                  pronounce it like "íobchod"?

                  Jamie

                  I assume you have hit the nail. There is a difference between saying and
                  writing. We can speak of korespondak, sending e-mail with pronounciation
                  mentioned above. But as professional translators we should not IMHO commit
                  these incorrect Czech forms to paper. Therefore in writing always
                  elektronicka posta and korespondencni listek.
                  BR

                  Mirek
                • MK jazykové centrum
                  In fact there is a monthly called e-biz - a Czech one (www.ebiz-mag.cz). BTW, all rubrics there are in English (Start-up, E-business, Know-how, Exit, ...).
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 5 1:10 AM
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                    In fact there is a monthly called "e-biz" - a Czech one (www.ebiz-mag.cz).
                    BTW, all rubrics there are in English (Start-up, E-business, Know-how, Exit,
                    ...). Just thinking for 5 mins about translation of "know-how" and have no
                    sane idea.
                    Martin Koci
                  • Zdenek Bobek
                    ... Exit, ... Know-how is difficult to translate. In SOME cases you may use technologie or znalosti , but it is not thr right Czech term. It is very
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 5 3:17 PM
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                      Martin Koci wrote:

                      > In fact there is a monthly called "e-biz" - a Czech one (www.ebiz-mag.cz).
                      > BTW, all rubrics there are in English (Start-up, E-business, Know-how,
                      Exit,
                      > ...). Just thinking for 5 mins about translation of "know-how" and have no
                      > sane idea.

                      Know-how is difficult to translate. In SOME cases you may use "technologie"
                      or "znalosti", but it is not thr right Czech term. It is very difficult. I
                      usually do not translate this word.

                      Bob
                    • zehrovak@dr.com
                      ... Ahoj vespolek, ahoj Bobe, ... mentality To je teda pravda! =8o ... Jezismarja. Nechces nam rici, ze povidani na Czechlistu je pro tebe nakej druh terapie a
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 5 3:52 PM
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                        --- In Czechlist@y..., "Zdenek Bobek" <zdenek.bobek@w...> wrote:

                        Ahoj vespolek, ahoj Bobe,

                        > In fact I enjoy the discussion, I can learn a lot about people's
                        mentality

                        To je teda pravda! =8o

                        > as well as mine.

                        Jezismarja. Nechces nam rici, ze povidani na Czechlistu je pro tebe
                        nakej druh terapie a
                        sebepoznavani? ==8O (mam dlouhe vlasy)


                        Ale rad zase vidim tvoje ctive prispevky v Czechlistu, Bobicku. A vzdy
                        se mi to strasne libi kdyz nam rikas ty, ze jsme ukecani my! :)



                        Ja jsem zvadav jak velke je to rozpeti mezi spisovnou a hovorovou
                        cestinou a rad bych vedel
                        jestli ho muzeme porovnat uzitecnym zpusobem s takovym rozpetim v
                        jinych jazycich.

                        Asi by bylo na miste citovat naseho stareho kamarada Pavla Eisnera.
                        Psal sice pred
                        pulstoletim a prece - to, co rika o spisovne a hovorove cestine neni
                        asi uplne od veci i dneska.
                        Omlouvam se predem, ze je to dlouhy citat; pro uspechaneho ctenare
                        jsem zduraznil jeho
                        stezejni teze:

                        O kazdem narodnim jazyce plati, ze dokud neustrne, zije zivotem dvojim
                        - mluvou hovorovou
                        a jazykem spisovnym. Rozdily mezi obema soustavami mohou byt male i
                        velke; byvaji take v
                        dejinach narodnich jazyku promenlive, jednou se spisovny jazyk s
                        hovorovou mluvou sblizi,
                        jindy se od ni oddali radikalneji. Tak na pr. pusobi dnes francouzskym
                        jazykovym teoretikum
                        starosti znacne rozpeti mezi franstinou spisovnou a parizskou mluvou
                        hovorovou.

                        Jak je v techto vecech s cestinou? Take v ni je mezi obema soustavami
                        rozpeti. Byvalo
                        mensi, za stredoveku a pak az do Bile hory a po ni; v literature
                        obrozeneho naroda jde o
                        rozpeti velmi znacne, dosahuje vrcholu lumirovci, jazykem ceske
                        literatury do prvni valky
                        svetove; od tech dob prozivame sblizovani obou soustav, a to ve velmi
                        pozoruhode podobe
                        krivek sbihavych: cestina spisovna se jakymsi zobcanstenim,
                        zcivilnenim priblizuje k vyrazivu
                        mluvy obcovaci, cestina obcovaci zas, prejima leccos z cestiny
                        spisovne, 'zespisovnuje' se.
                        ALE PORAD JESTE JE ROZPETI MEZI OBEMA SOUSTAVAMI V CESTINE NADMIRU
                        VELKE, SROVNAME-LI JE S ROZPETIM V JINYCH JAZYCICH, rozumej: s
                        rozpetim, jez v
                        nich je mezi usem spisovnym a hovorovym usem vzdelane narodni
                        spolecnosti. Snad
                        neuskodi, srovname li nas stav veci se stavem nemeckym: POKUD JDE O
                        VYSLOVNOST,
                        JE U NAS ROZPETI _MENSI_ NEZ U NEMCU. Vyslovujeme sice line, nedbale,
                        lajdacky,
                        ale celkem bez regionalnich zvlastnosti. Sotva u nas nekdo podle pouhe
                        vyslovnosti pozna,
                        mluvi-li Cech od Domazlic nebo od Uherskoho Hradiste. Zcela jinak u
                        Nemcu, z nichz i
                        nejvzdelanejsi a jazykove nejpeclivejsi prozradi svou vyslovnosti, ze
                        je z Vidne nebo Berlina.

                        KARTA SE VSAK IHNED OBRATI, PRIHLEDNEME-LI K TVAROSLOVI, SKLADBE,
                        FRAZEOLOGII. ZDE VSUDE JSOU U VZDELANEHO NEMCE ROZDILY MEZI JEHO
                        JAZYKOVYM USEM HOVOROVYM A USEM SPISOVNYM CELKEM NEPATRNE. Omezi se
                        na to, ze si vzdelany Nemec v hovorove praxi odpusti vyrazy a obraty
                        slohu
                        kancelarskeho....To je rozpeti daleko mensi nez u nas. V CESTINE SE
                        USUS SPISOVNY S
                        HOVOROVYM ROZCHAZI TAK ZNACNE, ZE JDE O DVOJI DO ZNACNE MIRY AUTOMNI
                        SOUSTAVU JAZYKOVYCH PROSTREDKU.

                        Ve stati, kterou byste si opravdu meli precist ('Rec a sloh' ve
                        sborniku Cteni o jazyce),
                        upozornuje prof. Vilem Mathesius krasne na rozdil mezi souslovim
                        'obuvnicky ucen' a
                        souslovim 'sevcovsky ucednik'. Prvni souslovi je papir, druhe je zivot
                        sam. Nepohneme vsak
                        napr. zivnostenske zakonodarstvi, aby rikalo sevcovsky ucednik. Ale
                        dopsav predpisy pro
                        pokracovaci skoly pro obuvnicke ucne, odlozi ministersky rada pero a
                        bude trebas vypravovat
                        anekdotu o sevcovskem ucedniku, zajiste ne anekdotu o obuvnickem ucni.
                        To je - v kostce -
                        to rozpeti mezi nasim usem spisovnym a usem hovorovym."

                        --------

                        But what about English? Are the brain and heart of the language really
                        more within calling
                        distance of each other than is supposedly the case with Czech?

                        I wonder. I find that analyses of differences in Czech style often use
                        a three-tier model. For English I'd say it is much more common and
                        useful to
                        follow the scheme in the Comprehensive Grammar of English by Sir
                        Randolph Quirk
                        (beautiful name) and use a five-tier system:

                        VERY FORMAL: bombastic, ceremonial, with use of archaisms, 'inkhorn'
                        words, still typical
                        of some legalese in British English at least. "I deem her more
                        sagacious than I"

                        FORMAL: the 'written' standard, characteristic of business English: "I
                        consider her to be
                        more intelligent than I am"

                        NEUTRAL: language which stylistically does not call attention to
                        itself: "I think she is cleverer
                        than I am"

                        INFORMAL: colloquial, characteristic of speech among friends and
                        family: "I reckon she's
                        smarter than me"

                        VERY INFORMAL: low colloquial, slang, argot etc: "Cow's a right
                        bleedin know-
                        it-all, if you ask me'"

                        (How do you like my examples? BTW should any sagacious individuals
                        question the
                        synonymy of sagacious, clever, intelligent and know-it-all or the
                        comparative form
                        'cleverer/more clever', I shall get very informal indeed. No asterisks
                        from me, I can tell you!
                        >-<)


                        I would say that the _very formal_ style characteristic of some
                        legalese and bureaucratese in
                        British English, is just as remote from the spoken 'informal' language
                        as is the knottiest
                        bureaucratic 'spisovna cestina' from 'hovorova'. True, this very
                        formal style is fading out of
                        use these days but we do come up with such baffling legal jargon once
                        in a while, don't we?

                        So anyway, my point is that although English formal usage might be
                        closer to informal
                        usage than spisovna cestina is to hovorova (though how do we prove
                        these things
                        conclusively one way or the other?), we do also have our own
                        linguistic 'silverware' which is
                        brought out occasionally to dazzle and impress.





                        BTW I think Pavel Eisner had a similar five-tier notion of the
                        stylistic strata in Czech. I quote:

                        1. Ucitel del, ze se ke kvasu zjevi v hodinu urcenou
                        2. Ucitel pravil, ze se k hostine dostavi vcas
                        3. Ucitel rekl, ze na ten obed prijde vcas
                        4. Ucitelsky rek, ze na ten obed prijde vcas
                        5. Ucitelskej prej tu na tu bastu bude jako na koni

                        But perhaps this just goes to show that if we do use a five-tier model
                        for Czech, very formal
                        as opposed to just formal language is more fit for the stage (?) than
                        for legal contracts.

                        Sorry if I've gone on a bit.

                        M.
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