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Re: [Czechlist] TERM: e-commerce

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  • Michael Grant
    ... Anyone for e-obchod ? Michael -- BLUE DANUBE international communication services The Central and East European Language Source! ,
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 2 8:04 AM
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      >What do you think of translation of "e-commerce" to Czech? I have seen
      >"e-komerce" in various sources, I just do not like it very much. What about
      >leaving it as "e-commerce"? (Similarly to "e-mail").

      Anyone for "e-obchod"?
      Michael

      --
      BLUE DANUBE international communication services
      The Central and East European Language Source!
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    • Kostas Zgafas
      ... about ... You´re kidding, aren´t you?:-)) Tomorrow, we will be wearing e-boty, etc. K.
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 2 10:19 AM
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        > >What do you think of translation of "e-commerce" to Czech? I have seen
        > >"e-komerce" in various sources, I just do not like it very much. What
        about
        > >leaving it as "e-commerce"? (Similarly to "e-mail").
        >
        > Anyone for "e-obchod"?
        > Michael

        You´re kidding, aren´t you?:-)) Tomorrow, we will be wearing e-boty, etc.

        K.
      • Barendregt
        ‘E-obchod’ is actually very common usage (any search will prove that) and ‘elektronicke obchodovani’ seems to be the ‘official’ equivalent for
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 2 11:02 AM
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          ‘E-obchod’ is actually very common usage (any search will prove that) and
          ‘elektronicke obchodovani’ seems to be the ‘official’ equivalent for
          e-commerce (see www.mpo.cz <http://www.mpo.cz/> under Obchod - website of
          Ministerstvo prumyslu a obchodu). However, ‘e-komerce’ seems to be the
          prevalent usage while ‘e-commerce’ does not appear to be too frequently used
          in Czech.

          And what is the e-boty parallel, Kostas? Do I detect a bit of reluctance to
          join in celebrating the bright e-future??

          Tom


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Otto Pacholik
          ... What do you have against Michael s suggestion? I like it. Even though I am not going to wear e-boty ;-) Otto
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 2 11:16 AM
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            > > Anyone for "e-obchod"?
            > > Michael
            >
            > You´re kidding, aren´t you?:-)) Tomorrow, we will be wearing e-boty, etc.
            >
            > K.

            What do you have against Michael's suggestion? I like it. Even though I am
            not going to wear e-boty ;-)

            Otto
          • Michal Ginter
            I see no reason to use e-commerce or e-komerce in Czech other than sloppiness. Besides, komerce and commerce are false cognates. Onto e-obchod. I feel
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 2 11:00 PM
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              I see no reason to use "e-commerce" or "e-komerce" in Czech other than
              sloppiness. Besides, komerce and commerce are false cognates.

              Onto e-obchod. I feel abbreviations are formed (and treated)
              differently in Czech. If I needed to abbreviate elektronicky obchod,
              I'd write el. obchod, but I'd never say it out loud. While you can
              say "e.g." in English, saying "napr." in Czech would be pretty
              awkward, or sound funny.

              M.

              __________________________________________________________________

              > Message: 14
              > Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:04:14 -0600
              > From: Michael Grant <mgrant@...>
              > Subject: Re: TERM: e-commerce

              > >What do you think of translation of "e-commerce" to Czech? I have
              seen
              > >"e-komerce" in various sources, I just do not like it very much. What
              about
              > >leaving it as "e-commerce"? (Similarly to "e-mail").

              > Anyone for "e-obchod"?
              > Michael
            • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
              ... But ultimately the Czechs are going to shorten elektronicky obchod in some way. For example, I never heard anyone say korespondencni listek unless they
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 3 4:40 AM
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                In a message dated 2/3/01 2:06:53 AM, michalginter@... writes:

                >I see no reason to use "e-commerce" or "e-komerce" in Czech other than
                >sloppiness. Besides, komerce and commerce are false cognates.
                >
                >Onto e-obchod. I feel abbreviations are formed (and treated)
                >differently in Czech. If I needed to abbreviate elektronicky obchod,
                >I'd write el. obchod, but I'd never say it out loud. While you can
                >say "e.g." in English, saying "napr." in Czech would be pretty
                >awkward, or sound funny.

                But ultimately the Czechs are going to shorten elektronicky obchod in some
                way. For example, I never heard anyone say "korespondencni listek" unless
                they were telling me, a foreigner, not to say "korespond'ák", which, of
                course, is what the Czechs said themselves despite the fact that they always
                told me not to say it. I seldom heard people say "technicke vybaveni" and
                all those other computer "vybaveni", in real life, although someone must say
                it. And even a chocolate "Überraschungsei" was called a "kindervajicko" by
                kids and their parents, instead of a "detske vajicko" as the sign said. I
                seldom hear Czech friends say "elektronicka posta", but they always say
                something that sounds like "ímejl", so why wouldn't they say "e-obchod" and
                pronounce it like "íobchod"?

                Jamie
              • Zdenek Bobek
                Zdar Ja se musim pridat, protoze e-obchod a e.komerce a podobny veci jsou v cestine proste stejne sileny jako jako kindrcokolada. To je proste proti zasadam,
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 3 5:30 AM
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                  Zdar

                  Ja se musim pridat, protoze e-obchod a e.komerce a podobny veci jsou v
                  cestine proste stejne sileny jako jako kindrcokolada. To je proste proti
                  zasadam, jakymi cesky jazyk tvori slova. Tyto zasady plati prestoze jsou
                  samotnymi rodilymi mluvcimi casto porusovany.
                  kindrcokolada je spatne, spravne by melo byt cokolada kinder (taky nerikame
                  Radegastpivo ale pivo Radegast" nebo - ooo hruzo hruzouci - "tojotauto" ale
                  "auto Toyota")

                  Vyraz e-business je v cestine elektronicky obchod a prinese-li zivot nejakou
                  zkratku, bude tato jazykove akceptovatelna pouze tehdy nebude-li porusovat
                  principy spravne tvorby novych slov v cestine. Proto je korespondak
                  pripustny, ze zachovava tyto principy, i kdyz lide jaksi citi, ze je to
                  vyraz hovorovy a ve sve neinformovanosti rikaji cizincum mluvicim cesky, aby
                  to slovo nepouzivali, protoze si mysli, ze cizinec musi mluvit spisovne.
                  Nemusi.

                  Slovo "imejl" patri do slangu, je cizí, v psane podobe, kterou jsem uvedl se
                  pouziva jen na prastenych diskuznich serverech typu Xtalk. Cesky vyraz je
                  elektronicka posta.

                  Proste v cestine se pri tvoreni novych slov neda udelat cokoliv. Novy vyraz
                  by mel splnovat nektera zakladni pravidla: mel by se dobre sklonovat nebo
                  casovat, jinak se tezko ujme, nemel by obsahovat pro cestinu neobvykle
                  skupiny samohlasek (aby znel) a nemel by byt slozeninou ciziho vyrazu a
                  ceskeho vyrazu (viz napriklad kdysi medii vlacena a nalezite zostuzena
                  "laktokrupicova kase"). Samozrejme, ze potreba novych slov pojmenovavajicich
                  nove skutecnosti plodi nejruznejsi novinky. Vetsina z nich jsou potraty,
                  neco jsou zmrzacena nedochudcata a jen minimum projde testem zivota a
                  konkurzem a dostane pozehnani akademiku. I kdyz ani ti nejsou neomylni,
                  kdysi stvorili slovo magnetoskop, ktere se proste nechytlo a misto nej
                  vyrostla sazenicka take cizi, ale prirozenejsi: video. Jsme prekladatele,
                  zachazejme prosim, s nasimi pracovnimi jazyky ohleduplne.

                  Bob
                • Miroslav Herold
                  ************************************************************** Ing.Miroslav HEROLD, CSc. tlumocník/prekladatel/poradenství/volný novinár tel.: xx420 2 5155
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 4 2:24 AM
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                    **************************************************************
                    Ing.Miroslav HEROLD, CSc.

                    tlumocník/prekladatel/poradenství/volný novinár
                    tel.: xx420 2 5155 4950
                    mobil: 0606 865870
                    ***********************************************************
                    but they always say
                    something that sounds like "ímejl", so why wouldn't they say "e-obchod" and
                    pronounce it like "íobchod"?

                    Jamie

                    I assume you have hit the nail. There is a difference between saying and
                    writing. We can speak of korespondak, sending e-mail with pronounciation
                    mentioned above. But as professional translators we should not IMHO commit
                    these incorrect Czech forms to paper. Therefore in writing always
                    elektronicka posta and korespondencni listek.
                    BR

                    Mirek
                  • MK jazykové centrum
                    In fact there is a monthly called e-biz - a Czech one (www.ebiz-mag.cz). BTW, all rubrics there are in English (Start-up, E-business, Know-how, Exit, ...).
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 5 1:10 AM
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                      In fact there is a monthly called "e-biz" - a Czech one (www.ebiz-mag.cz).
                      BTW, all rubrics there are in English (Start-up, E-business, Know-how, Exit,
                      ...). Just thinking for 5 mins about translation of "know-how" and have no
                      sane idea.
                      Martin Koci
                    • Zdenek Bobek
                      ... Exit, ... Know-how is difficult to translate. In SOME cases you may use technologie or znalosti , but it is not thr right Czech term. It is very
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 5 3:17 PM
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                        Martin Koci wrote:

                        > In fact there is a monthly called "e-biz" - a Czech one (www.ebiz-mag.cz).
                        > BTW, all rubrics there are in English (Start-up, E-business, Know-how,
                        Exit,
                        > ...). Just thinking for 5 mins about translation of "know-how" and have no
                        > sane idea.

                        Know-how is difficult to translate. In SOME cases you may use "technologie"
                        or "znalosti", but it is not thr right Czech term. It is very difficult. I
                        usually do not translate this word.

                        Bob
                      • zehrovak@dr.com
                        ... Ahoj vespolek, ahoj Bobe, ... mentality To je teda pravda! =8o ... Jezismarja. Nechces nam rici, ze povidani na Czechlistu je pro tebe nakej druh terapie a
                        Message 11 of 13 , Feb 5 3:52 PM
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                          --- In Czechlist@y..., "Zdenek Bobek" <zdenek.bobek@w...> wrote:

                          Ahoj vespolek, ahoj Bobe,

                          > In fact I enjoy the discussion, I can learn a lot about people's
                          mentality

                          To je teda pravda! =8o

                          > as well as mine.

                          Jezismarja. Nechces nam rici, ze povidani na Czechlistu je pro tebe
                          nakej druh terapie a
                          sebepoznavani? ==8O (mam dlouhe vlasy)


                          Ale rad zase vidim tvoje ctive prispevky v Czechlistu, Bobicku. A vzdy
                          se mi to strasne libi kdyz nam rikas ty, ze jsme ukecani my! :)



                          Ja jsem zvadav jak velke je to rozpeti mezi spisovnou a hovorovou
                          cestinou a rad bych vedel
                          jestli ho muzeme porovnat uzitecnym zpusobem s takovym rozpetim v
                          jinych jazycich.

                          Asi by bylo na miste citovat naseho stareho kamarada Pavla Eisnera.
                          Psal sice pred
                          pulstoletim a prece - to, co rika o spisovne a hovorove cestine neni
                          asi uplne od veci i dneska.
                          Omlouvam se predem, ze je to dlouhy citat; pro uspechaneho ctenare
                          jsem zduraznil jeho
                          stezejni teze:

                          O kazdem narodnim jazyce plati, ze dokud neustrne, zije zivotem dvojim
                          - mluvou hovorovou
                          a jazykem spisovnym. Rozdily mezi obema soustavami mohou byt male i
                          velke; byvaji take v
                          dejinach narodnich jazyku promenlive, jednou se spisovny jazyk s
                          hovorovou mluvou sblizi,
                          jindy se od ni oddali radikalneji. Tak na pr. pusobi dnes francouzskym
                          jazykovym teoretikum
                          starosti znacne rozpeti mezi franstinou spisovnou a parizskou mluvou
                          hovorovou.

                          Jak je v techto vecech s cestinou? Take v ni je mezi obema soustavami
                          rozpeti. Byvalo
                          mensi, za stredoveku a pak az do Bile hory a po ni; v literature
                          obrozeneho naroda jde o
                          rozpeti velmi znacne, dosahuje vrcholu lumirovci, jazykem ceske
                          literatury do prvni valky
                          svetove; od tech dob prozivame sblizovani obou soustav, a to ve velmi
                          pozoruhode podobe
                          krivek sbihavych: cestina spisovna se jakymsi zobcanstenim,
                          zcivilnenim priblizuje k vyrazivu
                          mluvy obcovaci, cestina obcovaci zas, prejima leccos z cestiny
                          spisovne, 'zespisovnuje' se.
                          ALE PORAD JESTE JE ROZPETI MEZI OBEMA SOUSTAVAMI V CESTINE NADMIRU
                          VELKE, SROVNAME-LI JE S ROZPETIM V JINYCH JAZYCICH, rozumej: s
                          rozpetim, jez v
                          nich je mezi usem spisovnym a hovorovym usem vzdelane narodni
                          spolecnosti. Snad
                          neuskodi, srovname li nas stav veci se stavem nemeckym: POKUD JDE O
                          VYSLOVNOST,
                          JE U NAS ROZPETI _MENSI_ NEZ U NEMCU. Vyslovujeme sice line, nedbale,
                          lajdacky,
                          ale celkem bez regionalnich zvlastnosti. Sotva u nas nekdo podle pouhe
                          vyslovnosti pozna,
                          mluvi-li Cech od Domazlic nebo od Uherskoho Hradiste. Zcela jinak u
                          Nemcu, z nichz i
                          nejvzdelanejsi a jazykove nejpeclivejsi prozradi svou vyslovnosti, ze
                          je z Vidne nebo Berlina.

                          KARTA SE VSAK IHNED OBRATI, PRIHLEDNEME-LI K TVAROSLOVI, SKLADBE,
                          FRAZEOLOGII. ZDE VSUDE JSOU U VZDELANEHO NEMCE ROZDILY MEZI JEHO
                          JAZYKOVYM USEM HOVOROVYM A USEM SPISOVNYM CELKEM NEPATRNE. Omezi se
                          na to, ze si vzdelany Nemec v hovorove praxi odpusti vyrazy a obraty
                          slohu
                          kancelarskeho....To je rozpeti daleko mensi nez u nas. V CESTINE SE
                          USUS SPISOVNY S
                          HOVOROVYM ROZCHAZI TAK ZNACNE, ZE JDE O DVOJI DO ZNACNE MIRY AUTOMNI
                          SOUSTAVU JAZYKOVYCH PROSTREDKU.

                          Ve stati, kterou byste si opravdu meli precist ('Rec a sloh' ve
                          sborniku Cteni o jazyce),
                          upozornuje prof. Vilem Mathesius krasne na rozdil mezi souslovim
                          'obuvnicky ucen' a
                          souslovim 'sevcovsky ucednik'. Prvni souslovi je papir, druhe je zivot
                          sam. Nepohneme vsak
                          napr. zivnostenske zakonodarstvi, aby rikalo sevcovsky ucednik. Ale
                          dopsav predpisy pro
                          pokracovaci skoly pro obuvnicke ucne, odlozi ministersky rada pero a
                          bude trebas vypravovat
                          anekdotu o sevcovskem ucedniku, zajiste ne anekdotu o obuvnickem ucni.
                          To je - v kostce -
                          to rozpeti mezi nasim usem spisovnym a usem hovorovym."

                          --------

                          But what about English? Are the brain and heart of the language really
                          more within calling
                          distance of each other than is supposedly the case with Czech?

                          I wonder. I find that analyses of differences in Czech style often use
                          a three-tier model. For English I'd say it is much more common and
                          useful to
                          follow the scheme in the Comprehensive Grammar of English by Sir
                          Randolph Quirk
                          (beautiful name) and use a five-tier system:

                          VERY FORMAL: bombastic, ceremonial, with use of archaisms, 'inkhorn'
                          words, still typical
                          of some legalese in British English at least. "I deem her more
                          sagacious than I"

                          FORMAL: the 'written' standard, characteristic of business English: "I
                          consider her to be
                          more intelligent than I am"

                          NEUTRAL: language which stylistically does not call attention to
                          itself: "I think she is cleverer
                          than I am"

                          INFORMAL: colloquial, characteristic of speech among friends and
                          family: "I reckon she's
                          smarter than me"

                          VERY INFORMAL: low colloquial, slang, argot etc: "Cow's a right
                          bleedin know-
                          it-all, if you ask me'"

                          (How do you like my examples? BTW should any sagacious individuals
                          question the
                          synonymy of sagacious, clever, intelligent and know-it-all or the
                          comparative form
                          'cleverer/more clever', I shall get very informal indeed. No asterisks
                          from me, I can tell you!
                          >-<)


                          I would say that the _very formal_ style characteristic of some
                          legalese and bureaucratese in
                          British English, is just as remote from the spoken 'informal' language
                          as is the knottiest
                          bureaucratic 'spisovna cestina' from 'hovorova'. True, this very
                          formal style is fading out of
                          use these days but we do come up with such baffling legal jargon once
                          in a while, don't we?

                          So anyway, my point is that although English formal usage might be
                          closer to informal
                          usage than spisovna cestina is to hovorova (though how do we prove
                          these things
                          conclusively one way or the other?), we do also have our own
                          linguistic 'silverware' which is
                          brought out occasionally to dazzle and impress.





                          BTW I think Pavel Eisner had a similar five-tier notion of the
                          stylistic strata in Czech. I quote:

                          1. Ucitel del, ze se ke kvasu zjevi v hodinu urcenou
                          2. Ucitel pravil, ze se k hostine dostavi vcas
                          3. Ucitel rekl, ze na ten obed prijde vcas
                          4. Ucitelsky rek, ze na ten obed prijde vcas
                          5. Ucitelskej prej tu na tu bastu bude jako na koni

                          But perhaps this just goes to show that if we do use a five-tier model
                          for Czech, very formal
                          as opposed to just formal language is more fit for the stage (?) than
                          for legal contracts.

                          Sorry if I've gone on a bit.

                          M.
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