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Re: [Czechlist] TERM: e-commerce

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  • Kostas Zgafas
    Hi! What do you think of translation of e-commerce to Czech? I have seen e-komerce in various sources, I just do not like it very much. What about leaving
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 1, 2001
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      Hi!

      What do you think of translation of "e-commerce" to Czech? I have seen
      "e-komerce" in various sources, I just do not like it very much. What about
      leaving it as "e-commerce"? (Similarly to "e-mail").

      K.
    • Otto Pacholik
      I have been using either elektronicke obchodovani or elektronicka komerce for e-commerce. I have left e-commerce only in software names. Otto
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 1, 2001
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        I have been using

        either elektronicke obchodovani or elektronicka komerce for e-commerce.

        I have left e-commerce only in software names.

        Otto
      • Michael Grant
        ... Anyone for e-obchod ? Michael -- BLUE DANUBE international communication services The Central and East European Language Source! ,
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 2, 2001
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          >What do you think of translation of "e-commerce" to Czech? I have seen
          >"e-komerce" in various sources, I just do not like it very much. What about
          >leaving it as "e-commerce"? (Similarly to "e-mail").

          Anyone for "e-obchod"?
          Michael

          --
          BLUE DANUBE international communication services
          The Central and East European Language Source!
          <http://www.bdanube.com>, <mailto:bdanube@...>
          Tel. (+1-512) 336-8911, Fax (+1-512) 336-8954
        • Kostas Zgafas
          ... about ... You´re kidding, aren´t you?:-)) Tomorrow, we will be wearing e-boty, etc. K.
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 2, 2001
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            > >What do you think of translation of "e-commerce" to Czech? I have seen
            > >"e-komerce" in various sources, I just do not like it very much. What
            about
            > >leaving it as "e-commerce"? (Similarly to "e-mail").
            >
            > Anyone for "e-obchod"?
            > Michael

            You´re kidding, aren´t you?:-)) Tomorrow, we will be wearing e-boty, etc.

            K.
          • Barendregt
            ‘E-obchod’ is actually very common usage (any search will prove that) and ‘elektronicke obchodovani’ seems to be the ‘official’ equivalent for
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 2, 2001
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              ‘E-obchod’ is actually very common usage (any search will prove that) and
              ‘elektronicke obchodovani’ seems to be the ‘official’ equivalent for
              e-commerce (see www.mpo.cz <http://www.mpo.cz/> under Obchod - website of
              Ministerstvo prumyslu a obchodu). However, ‘e-komerce’ seems to be the
              prevalent usage while ‘e-commerce’ does not appear to be too frequently used
              in Czech.

              And what is the e-boty parallel, Kostas? Do I detect a bit of reluctance to
              join in celebrating the bright e-future??

              Tom


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Otto Pacholik
              ... What do you have against Michael s suggestion? I like it. Even though I am not going to wear e-boty ;-) Otto
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 2, 2001
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                > > Anyone for "e-obchod"?
                > > Michael
                >
                > You´re kidding, aren´t you?:-)) Tomorrow, we will be wearing e-boty, etc.
                >
                > K.

                What do you have against Michael's suggestion? I like it. Even though I am
                not going to wear e-boty ;-)

                Otto
              • Michal Ginter
                I see no reason to use e-commerce or e-komerce in Czech other than sloppiness. Besides, komerce and commerce are false cognates. Onto e-obchod. I feel
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 2, 2001
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                  I see no reason to use "e-commerce" or "e-komerce" in Czech other than
                  sloppiness. Besides, komerce and commerce are false cognates.

                  Onto e-obchod. I feel abbreviations are formed (and treated)
                  differently in Czech. If I needed to abbreviate elektronicky obchod,
                  I'd write el. obchod, but I'd never say it out loud. While you can
                  say "e.g." in English, saying "napr." in Czech would be pretty
                  awkward, or sound funny.

                  M.

                  __________________________________________________________________

                  > Message: 14
                  > Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:04:14 -0600
                  > From: Michael Grant <mgrant@...>
                  > Subject: Re: TERM: e-commerce

                  > >What do you think of translation of "e-commerce" to Czech? I have
                  seen
                  > >"e-komerce" in various sources, I just do not like it very much. What
                  about
                  > >leaving it as "e-commerce"? (Similarly to "e-mail").

                  > Anyone for "e-obchod"?
                  > Michael
                • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
                  ... But ultimately the Czechs are going to shorten elektronicky obchod in some way. For example, I never heard anyone say korespondencni listek unless they
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 3, 2001
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                    In a message dated 2/3/01 2:06:53 AM, michalginter@... writes:

                    >I see no reason to use "e-commerce" or "e-komerce" in Czech other than
                    >sloppiness. Besides, komerce and commerce are false cognates.
                    >
                    >Onto e-obchod. I feel abbreviations are formed (and treated)
                    >differently in Czech. If I needed to abbreviate elektronicky obchod,
                    >I'd write el. obchod, but I'd never say it out loud. While you can
                    >say "e.g." in English, saying "napr." in Czech would be pretty
                    >awkward, or sound funny.

                    But ultimately the Czechs are going to shorten elektronicky obchod in some
                    way. For example, I never heard anyone say "korespondencni listek" unless
                    they were telling me, a foreigner, not to say "korespond'ák", which, of
                    course, is what the Czechs said themselves despite the fact that they always
                    told me not to say it. I seldom heard people say "technicke vybaveni" and
                    all those other computer "vybaveni", in real life, although someone must say
                    it. And even a chocolate "Überraschungsei" was called a "kindervajicko" by
                    kids and their parents, instead of a "detske vajicko" as the sign said. I
                    seldom hear Czech friends say "elektronicka posta", but they always say
                    something that sounds like "ímejl", so why wouldn't they say "e-obchod" and
                    pronounce it like "íobchod"?

                    Jamie
                  • Zdenek Bobek
                    Zdar Ja se musim pridat, protoze e-obchod a e.komerce a podobny veci jsou v cestine proste stejne sileny jako jako kindrcokolada. To je proste proti zasadam,
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 3, 2001
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                      Zdar

                      Ja se musim pridat, protoze e-obchod a e.komerce a podobny veci jsou v
                      cestine proste stejne sileny jako jako kindrcokolada. To je proste proti
                      zasadam, jakymi cesky jazyk tvori slova. Tyto zasady plati prestoze jsou
                      samotnymi rodilymi mluvcimi casto porusovany.
                      kindrcokolada je spatne, spravne by melo byt cokolada kinder (taky nerikame
                      Radegastpivo ale pivo Radegast" nebo - ooo hruzo hruzouci - "tojotauto" ale
                      "auto Toyota")

                      Vyraz e-business je v cestine elektronicky obchod a prinese-li zivot nejakou
                      zkratku, bude tato jazykove akceptovatelna pouze tehdy nebude-li porusovat
                      principy spravne tvorby novych slov v cestine. Proto je korespondak
                      pripustny, ze zachovava tyto principy, i kdyz lide jaksi citi, ze je to
                      vyraz hovorovy a ve sve neinformovanosti rikaji cizincum mluvicim cesky, aby
                      to slovo nepouzivali, protoze si mysli, ze cizinec musi mluvit spisovne.
                      Nemusi.

                      Slovo "imejl" patri do slangu, je cizí, v psane podobe, kterou jsem uvedl se
                      pouziva jen na prastenych diskuznich serverech typu Xtalk. Cesky vyraz je
                      elektronicka posta.

                      Proste v cestine se pri tvoreni novych slov neda udelat cokoliv. Novy vyraz
                      by mel splnovat nektera zakladni pravidla: mel by se dobre sklonovat nebo
                      casovat, jinak se tezko ujme, nemel by obsahovat pro cestinu neobvykle
                      skupiny samohlasek (aby znel) a nemel by byt slozeninou ciziho vyrazu a
                      ceskeho vyrazu (viz napriklad kdysi medii vlacena a nalezite zostuzena
                      "laktokrupicova kase"). Samozrejme, ze potreba novych slov pojmenovavajicich
                      nove skutecnosti plodi nejruznejsi novinky. Vetsina z nich jsou potraty,
                      neco jsou zmrzacena nedochudcata a jen minimum projde testem zivota a
                      konkurzem a dostane pozehnani akademiku. I kdyz ani ti nejsou neomylni,
                      kdysi stvorili slovo magnetoskop, ktere se proste nechytlo a misto nej
                      vyrostla sazenicka take cizi, ale prirozenejsi: video. Jsme prekladatele,
                      zachazejme prosim, s nasimi pracovnimi jazyky ohleduplne.

                      Bob
                    • Miroslav Herold
                      ************************************************************** Ing.Miroslav HEROLD, CSc. tlumocník/prekladatel/poradenství/volný novinár tel.: xx420 2 5155
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 4, 2001
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                        **************************************************************
                        Ing.Miroslav HEROLD, CSc.

                        tlumocník/prekladatel/poradenství/volný novinár
                        tel.: xx420 2 5155 4950
                        mobil: 0606 865870
                        ***********************************************************
                        but they always say
                        something that sounds like "ímejl", so why wouldn't they say "e-obchod" and
                        pronounce it like "íobchod"?

                        Jamie

                        I assume you have hit the nail. There is a difference between saying and
                        writing. We can speak of korespondak, sending e-mail with pronounciation
                        mentioned above. But as professional translators we should not IMHO commit
                        these incorrect Czech forms to paper. Therefore in writing always
                        elektronicka posta and korespondencni listek.
                        BR

                        Mirek
                      • MK jazykové centrum
                        In fact there is a monthly called e-biz - a Czech one (www.ebiz-mag.cz). BTW, all rubrics there are in English (Start-up, E-business, Know-how, Exit, ...).
                        Message 11 of 13 , Feb 5, 2001
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                          In fact there is a monthly called "e-biz" - a Czech one (www.ebiz-mag.cz).
                          BTW, all rubrics there are in English (Start-up, E-business, Know-how, Exit,
                          ...). Just thinking for 5 mins about translation of "know-how" and have no
                          sane idea.
                          Martin Koci
                        • Zdenek Bobek
                          ... Exit, ... Know-how is difficult to translate. In SOME cases you may use technologie or znalosti , but it is not thr right Czech term. It is very
                          Message 12 of 13 , Feb 5, 2001
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                            Martin Koci wrote:

                            > In fact there is a monthly called "e-biz" - a Czech one (www.ebiz-mag.cz).
                            > BTW, all rubrics there are in English (Start-up, E-business, Know-how,
                            Exit,
                            > ...). Just thinking for 5 mins about translation of "know-how" and have no
                            > sane idea.

                            Know-how is difficult to translate. In SOME cases you may use "technologie"
                            or "znalosti", but it is not thr right Czech term. It is very difficult. I
                            usually do not translate this word.

                            Bob
                          • zehrovak@dr.com
                            ... Ahoj vespolek, ahoj Bobe, ... mentality To je teda pravda! =8o ... Jezismarja. Nechces nam rici, ze povidani na Czechlistu je pro tebe nakej druh terapie a
                            Message 13 of 13 , Feb 5, 2001
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                              --- In Czechlist@y..., "Zdenek Bobek" <zdenek.bobek@w...> wrote:

                              Ahoj vespolek, ahoj Bobe,

                              > In fact I enjoy the discussion, I can learn a lot about people's
                              mentality

                              To je teda pravda! =8o

                              > as well as mine.

                              Jezismarja. Nechces nam rici, ze povidani na Czechlistu je pro tebe
                              nakej druh terapie a
                              sebepoznavani? ==8O (mam dlouhe vlasy)


                              Ale rad zase vidim tvoje ctive prispevky v Czechlistu, Bobicku. A vzdy
                              se mi to strasne libi kdyz nam rikas ty, ze jsme ukecani my! :)



                              Ja jsem zvadav jak velke je to rozpeti mezi spisovnou a hovorovou
                              cestinou a rad bych vedel
                              jestli ho muzeme porovnat uzitecnym zpusobem s takovym rozpetim v
                              jinych jazycich.

                              Asi by bylo na miste citovat naseho stareho kamarada Pavla Eisnera.
                              Psal sice pred
                              pulstoletim a prece - to, co rika o spisovne a hovorove cestine neni
                              asi uplne od veci i dneska.
                              Omlouvam se predem, ze je to dlouhy citat; pro uspechaneho ctenare
                              jsem zduraznil jeho
                              stezejni teze:

                              O kazdem narodnim jazyce plati, ze dokud neustrne, zije zivotem dvojim
                              - mluvou hovorovou
                              a jazykem spisovnym. Rozdily mezi obema soustavami mohou byt male i
                              velke; byvaji take v
                              dejinach narodnich jazyku promenlive, jednou se spisovny jazyk s
                              hovorovou mluvou sblizi,
                              jindy se od ni oddali radikalneji. Tak na pr. pusobi dnes francouzskym
                              jazykovym teoretikum
                              starosti znacne rozpeti mezi franstinou spisovnou a parizskou mluvou
                              hovorovou.

                              Jak je v techto vecech s cestinou? Take v ni je mezi obema soustavami
                              rozpeti. Byvalo
                              mensi, za stredoveku a pak az do Bile hory a po ni; v literature
                              obrozeneho naroda jde o
                              rozpeti velmi znacne, dosahuje vrcholu lumirovci, jazykem ceske
                              literatury do prvni valky
                              svetove; od tech dob prozivame sblizovani obou soustav, a to ve velmi
                              pozoruhode podobe
                              krivek sbihavych: cestina spisovna se jakymsi zobcanstenim,
                              zcivilnenim priblizuje k vyrazivu
                              mluvy obcovaci, cestina obcovaci zas, prejima leccos z cestiny
                              spisovne, 'zespisovnuje' se.
                              ALE PORAD JESTE JE ROZPETI MEZI OBEMA SOUSTAVAMI V CESTINE NADMIRU
                              VELKE, SROVNAME-LI JE S ROZPETIM V JINYCH JAZYCICH, rozumej: s
                              rozpetim, jez v
                              nich je mezi usem spisovnym a hovorovym usem vzdelane narodni
                              spolecnosti. Snad
                              neuskodi, srovname li nas stav veci se stavem nemeckym: POKUD JDE O
                              VYSLOVNOST,
                              JE U NAS ROZPETI _MENSI_ NEZ U NEMCU. Vyslovujeme sice line, nedbale,
                              lajdacky,
                              ale celkem bez regionalnich zvlastnosti. Sotva u nas nekdo podle pouhe
                              vyslovnosti pozna,
                              mluvi-li Cech od Domazlic nebo od Uherskoho Hradiste. Zcela jinak u
                              Nemcu, z nichz i
                              nejvzdelanejsi a jazykove nejpeclivejsi prozradi svou vyslovnosti, ze
                              je z Vidne nebo Berlina.

                              KARTA SE VSAK IHNED OBRATI, PRIHLEDNEME-LI K TVAROSLOVI, SKLADBE,
                              FRAZEOLOGII. ZDE VSUDE JSOU U VZDELANEHO NEMCE ROZDILY MEZI JEHO
                              JAZYKOVYM USEM HOVOROVYM A USEM SPISOVNYM CELKEM NEPATRNE. Omezi se
                              na to, ze si vzdelany Nemec v hovorove praxi odpusti vyrazy a obraty
                              slohu
                              kancelarskeho....To je rozpeti daleko mensi nez u nas. V CESTINE SE
                              USUS SPISOVNY S
                              HOVOROVYM ROZCHAZI TAK ZNACNE, ZE JDE O DVOJI DO ZNACNE MIRY AUTOMNI
                              SOUSTAVU JAZYKOVYCH PROSTREDKU.

                              Ve stati, kterou byste si opravdu meli precist ('Rec a sloh' ve
                              sborniku Cteni o jazyce),
                              upozornuje prof. Vilem Mathesius krasne na rozdil mezi souslovim
                              'obuvnicky ucen' a
                              souslovim 'sevcovsky ucednik'. Prvni souslovi je papir, druhe je zivot
                              sam. Nepohneme vsak
                              napr. zivnostenske zakonodarstvi, aby rikalo sevcovsky ucednik. Ale
                              dopsav predpisy pro
                              pokracovaci skoly pro obuvnicke ucne, odlozi ministersky rada pero a
                              bude trebas vypravovat
                              anekdotu o sevcovskem ucedniku, zajiste ne anekdotu o obuvnickem ucni.
                              To je - v kostce -
                              to rozpeti mezi nasim usem spisovnym a usem hovorovym."

                              --------

                              But what about English? Are the brain and heart of the language really
                              more within calling
                              distance of each other than is supposedly the case with Czech?

                              I wonder. I find that analyses of differences in Czech style often use
                              a three-tier model. For English I'd say it is much more common and
                              useful to
                              follow the scheme in the Comprehensive Grammar of English by Sir
                              Randolph Quirk
                              (beautiful name) and use a five-tier system:

                              VERY FORMAL: bombastic, ceremonial, with use of archaisms, 'inkhorn'
                              words, still typical
                              of some legalese in British English at least. "I deem her more
                              sagacious than I"

                              FORMAL: the 'written' standard, characteristic of business English: "I
                              consider her to be
                              more intelligent than I am"

                              NEUTRAL: language which stylistically does not call attention to
                              itself: "I think she is cleverer
                              than I am"

                              INFORMAL: colloquial, characteristic of speech among friends and
                              family: "I reckon she's
                              smarter than me"

                              VERY INFORMAL: low colloquial, slang, argot etc: "Cow's a right
                              bleedin know-
                              it-all, if you ask me'"

                              (How do you like my examples? BTW should any sagacious individuals
                              question the
                              synonymy of sagacious, clever, intelligent and know-it-all or the
                              comparative form
                              'cleverer/more clever', I shall get very informal indeed. No asterisks
                              from me, I can tell you!
                              >-<)


                              I would say that the _very formal_ style characteristic of some
                              legalese and bureaucratese in
                              British English, is just as remote from the spoken 'informal' language
                              as is the knottiest
                              bureaucratic 'spisovna cestina' from 'hovorova'. True, this very
                              formal style is fading out of
                              use these days but we do come up with such baffling legal jargon once
                              in a while, don't we?

                              So anyway, my point is that although English formal usage might be
                              closer to informal
                              usage than spisovna cestina is to hovorova (though how do we prove
                              these things
                              conclusively one way or the other?), we do also have our own
                              linguistic 'silverware' which is
                              brought out occasionally to dazzle and impress.





                              BTW I think Pavel Eisner had a similar five-tier notion of the
                              stylistic strata in Czech. I quote:

                              1. Ucitel del, ze se ke kvasu zjevi v hodinu urcenou
                              2. Ucitel pravil, ze se k hostine dostavi vcas
                              3. Ucitel rekl, ze na ten obed prijde vcas
                              4. Ucitelsky rek, ze na ten obed prijde vcas
                              5. Ucitelskej prej tu na tu bastu bude jako na koni

                              But perhaps this just goes to show that if we do use a five-tier model
                              for Czech, very formal
                              as opposed to just formal language is more fit for the stage (?) than
                              for legal contracts.

                              Sorry if I've gone on a bit.

                              M.
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