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Re: [Czechlist] Re: "and" or comma

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  • Martin Janda
    Ja bych skoro rekl, ze je to naopak. :-) Pod vlivem anglictiny potkavam cim dal casteji zretezena pridavna jmena bez carky i toho a - treba rychla ucinna
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 7, 2013
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      Ja bych skoro rekl, ze je to naopak. :-) Pod vlivem anglictiny potkavam
      cim dal casteji zretezena pridavna jmena bez carky i toho "a" - treba
      "rychla ucinna usporna pomoc", coz mi zni straslive (viz sdelovaci
      dativ). A pokud jsou adjektiva pred podstatnym jmenem dve, na rozdil od
      anglictiny tam patri i to "a" (rychla a ucinna pomoc). Pokud by ta
      adjektiva byla v protikladu, pouziju treba sluvko "i" (rychla i pomala
      pomoc se hodi).

      Martin


      Dne 7.1.2013 13:48, Petr napsal(a):
      >
      > Ja myslim, ze v cestine je to uplne stejne. I tady se rozsirilo, ze ve
      > vyctu se delaji same carky a opomiji se pred poslednim slovem "a"
      > ("metoda je rychla, ucinna, usporna" misto spravnejsiho "metoda je
      > rychla, ucinna a usporna" nebo "lekarnicka musi obsahovat naplast,
      > obvaz, satek" misto "lekarnicka musi obsahovat naplast, obvaz a
      > satek"). I ta gramaticka pravidla jsou v obou jazycich v podstate
      > stejna, rekl bych.
      > Petr Adamek
      > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>,
      > James Kirchner wrote:
      > >
      > > Maybe I've addressed this on the Czechlist before, but this issue
      > has been driving me nuts in the TM in a job I'm working on now, so I
      > thought I'd bring it up for discussion:
      > >
      > > You shouldn't always put the word "and" between adjectives when it
      > appears in Czech or German. Most of the time we just use a comma if
      > the adjectives are supposed to apply to the noun at the same time.
      > >
      > > "safe, effective methods"
      > > "eager, intelligent children"
      > >
      > > But when the adjectives are in the predicate, you have to use "and":
      > >
      > > "The methods are safe and effective."
      > > "The children are eager and intelligent."
      > >
      > > The problem especially comes up when the adjectives modify a plural
      > noun and come before that noun, because in that case, the English mind
      > is prone to think the adjective is dividing the noun up into two
      > categories:
      > >
      > > "male and female witnesses" (the ones who are male aren't female,
      > and vice versa)
      > > "Polish and Chinese immigrants" (the ones who are Polish aren't
      > Chinese, and vice versa)
      > >
      > > Because of this categorizing function of "and", the English mind (at
      > least mine) can ping-pong when "and" is used between two adjectives
      > that fully apply to the same noun, even if the meaning is clear:
      > >
      > > "safe and effective methods" (Maybe the ones that are safe aren't
      > effective, and vice versa.)
      > > "eager and intelligent children" (Maybe the kids who are eager
      > aren't intelligent and vice versa.)
      > >
      > > Note that there is a fixed phrase in American English, "wild and
      > crazy" that started with two comedians on TV decades ago playing the
      > role of oversexed but repulsive young immigrants from Czechoslovakia.
      > One of the things that made these characters amusing to the audience
      > was that they always put "and" between two pre-nominal adjectives, so
      > instead of being "wild, crazy guys", they said, and became known as
      > "wild and crazy guys". This phrase was adopted because viewers thought
      > it was funny, although now it sounds normal to people who weren't born
      > yet when the show was on. (These would be the generation of people who
      > also wouldn't detect that the title "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" was
      > originally very funny.)
      > >
      > > Anyway, watch where you put "and". We would never say "a big and
      > noisy car", but "a big, noisy car".
      > >
      > > Jamie
      > >
      > >
      > > _______________________________________________
      > > Czechlist mailing list
      > > Czechlist@...
      > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      > >
      >
      >
    • Jirka Bolech
      Hi Jamie, I ve always thought you only put a comma between adjectives in the attributive position (in a noun phrase) if they re of the same kind, that is
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 7, 2013
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        Hi Jamie,

        I've "always" thought you only put a comma between adjectives in the
        attributive position (in a noun phrase) if they're of the same kind,
        that is they describe the same kind of qualities. I've found a web page
        that even says you _may_ put an 'and' between them:
        http://thestar.com.my/english/story.asp?file=/2007/7/25/lifefocus/18254291&sec=lifefocus.

        In my observation, this the kind of grammar even native speakers often
        misuse. Well, hopefully not authors, journalists, translators, or editors...

        Jirka Bolech


        _______________________________________________
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        Czechlist@...
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      • James Kirchner
        I disagree with the examples in the initial part of the article, but it s going to take me a little while to see if my objections can be substantiated. I ll
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 7, 2013
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          I disagree with the examples in the initial part of the article, but it's going to take me a little while to see if my objections can be substantiated.

          I'll look it up.

          Jamie

          On Jan 7, 2013, at 1:56 PM, Jirka Bolech wrote:

          > Hi Jamie,
          >
          > I've "always" thought you only put a comma between adjectives in the attributive position (in a noun phrase) if they're of the same kind, that is they describe the same kind of qualities. I've found a web page that even says you _may_ put an 'and' between them: http://thestar.com.my/english/story.asp?file=/2007/7/25/lifefocus/18254291&sec=lifefocus.
          >
          > In my observation, this the kind of grammar even native speakers often misuse. Well, hopefully not authors, journalists, translators, or editors...
          >
          > Jirka Bolech
          >
          >
          > _______________________________________________
          > Czechlist mailing list
          > Czechlist@...
          > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


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        • Ing. Jiří Klíma
          Ahoj vsem zucastnenym, Pokud si pamatuji, tak muj vyborny ucitel cestiny na stredni skole nam pred mnoha a mnoha lety vysvetloval rozdil mezi pouzivanim carky
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 7, 2013
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            Ahoj vsem zucastnenym,

            Pokud si pamatuji, tak muj vyborny ucitel cestiny na stredni skole nam pred
            mnoha a mnoha lety vysvetloval rozdil mezi pouzivanim carky a spojky.

            Pokud jde o vycet vlastnosti ruznych veci, tak se pouziva carka: "Mam
            cervene, zelene, modre, fialove a zlute auto." (tedy 5 aut)

            Pokud jde ale o rozsireni vlastnosti jedne v�ci nebo osoby, pouziva se
            spojka "a": "Byl to hodny a ochotny clovek" (porad stejna osoba).

            Snad to plati i dnes. Zdravi

            Jirka



            _____

            From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of Jirka Bolech
            Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 7:56 PM
            To: czechlist@...
            Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "and" or comma





            Hi Jamie,

            I've "always" thought you only put a comma between adjectives in the
            attributive position (in a noun phrase) if they're of the same kind,
            that is they describe the same kind of qualities. I've found a web page
            that even says you _may_ put an 'and' between them:
            http://thestar.com.my/english/story.asp?file=/2007/7/25/lifefocus/18254291
            <http://thestar.com.my/english/story.asp?file=/2007/7/25/lifefocus/18254291&
            sec=lifefocus.> &sec=lifefocus.

            In my observation, this the kind of grammar even native speakers often
            misuse. Well, hopefully not authors, journalists, translators, or editors...

            Jirka Bolech

            _______________________________________________
            Czechlist mailing list
            Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
            http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Martin Janda
            A jak to vyresis, kdyz jsou auta jen dvou barev a rozsirujici vlastnosti ctyri? Mam cervene, zelene auto? Byl to hodny a mily a ochotny a nezistny clovek ? To
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 8, 2013
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              A jak to vyresis, kdyz jsou auta jen dvou barev a rozsirujici vlastnosti
              ctyri? Mam cervene, zelene auto? Byl to hodny a mily a ochotny a
              nezistny clovek"? To mi moc nezni. Stale si myslim, ze delici klic je v
              poctu adjektiv.

              M.


              Dne 8.1.2013 8:38, Ing. Jiří Klíma napsal(a):
              > Ahoj vsem zucastnenym,
              >
              > Pokud si pamatuji, tak muj vyborny ucitel cestiny na stredni skole nam pred
              > mnoha a mnoha lety vysvetloval rozdil mezi pouzivanim carky a spojky.
              >
              > Pokud jde o vycet vlastnosti ruznych veci, tak se pouziva carka: "Mam
              > cervene, zelene, modre, fialove a zlute auto." (tedy 5 aut)
              >
              > Pokud jde ale o rozsireni vlastnosti jedne věci nebo osoby, pouziva se
              > spojka "a": "Byl to hodny a ochotny clovek" (porad stejna osoba).
              >
              > Snad to plati i dnes. Zdravi
              >
              > Jirka
              >
              >
              >
              > _____
              >
              > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              > Of Jirka Bolech
              > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 7:56 PM
              > To: czechlist@...
              > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "and" or comma
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Jamie,
              >
              > I've "always" thought you only put a comma between adjectives in the
              > attributive position (in a noun phrase) if they're of the same kind,
              > that is they describe the same kind of qualities. I've found a web page
              > that even says you _may_ put an 'and' between them:
              > http://thestar.com.my/english/story.asp?file=/2007/7/25/lifefocus/18254291
              > <http://thestar.com.my/english/story.asp?file=/2007/7/25/lifefocus/18254291&
              > sec=lifefocus.> &sec=lifefocus.
              >
              > In my observation, this the kind of grammar even native speakers often
              > misuse. Well, hopefully not authors, journalists, translators, or editors...
              >
              > Jirka Bolech
              >
              > _______________________________________________
              > Czechlist mailing list
              > Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
              > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Sarka Rubkova
              Èervenozelené auto, Martine ... From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Martin Janda Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 8, 2013
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                Červenozelené auto, Martine

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of Martin Janda
                Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 10:36 AM
                To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "and" or comma

                A jak to vyresis, kdyz jsou auta jen dvou barev a rozsirujici vlastnosti
                ctyri? Mam cervene, zelene auto? Byl to hodny a mily a ochotny a nezistny
                clovek"? To mi moc nezni. Stale si myslim, ze delici klic je v poctu
                adjektiv.

                M.


                Dne 8.1.2013 8:38, Ing. Jiří Klíma napsal(a):
                > Ahoj vsem zucastnenym,
                >
                > Pokud si pamatuji, tak muj vyborny ucitel cestiny na stredni skole nam
                pred
                > mnoha a mnoha lety vysvetloval rozdil mezi pouzivanim carky a spojky.
                >
                > Pokud jde o vycet vlastnosti ruznych veci, tak se pouziva carka: "Mam
                > cervene, zelene, modre, fialove a zlute auto." (tedy 5 aut)
                >
                > Pokud jde ale o rozsireni vlastnosti jedne věci nebo osoby, pouziva se
                > spojka "a": "Byl to hodny a ochotny clovek" (porad stejna osoba).
                >
                > Snad to plati i dnes. Zdravi
                >
                > Jirka
                >
                >
                >
                > _____
                >
                > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf
                > Of Jirka Bolech
                > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 7:56 PM
                > To: czechlist@...
                > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "and" or comma
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Hi Jamie,
                >
                > I've "always" thought you only put a comma between adjectives in the
                > attributive position (in a noun phrase) if they're of the same kind,
                > that is they describe the same kind of qualities. I've found a web page
                > that even says you _may_ put an 'and' between them:
                > http://thestar.com.my/english/story.asp?file=/2007/7/25/lifefocus/18254291
                >
                <http://thestar.com.my/english/story.asp?file=/2007/7/25/lifefocus/18254291&
                > sec=lifefocus.> &sec=lifefocus.
                >
                > In my observation, this the kind of grammar even native speakers often
                > misuse. Well, hopefully not authors, journalists, translators, or
                editors...
                >
                > Jirka Bolech
                >
                > _______________________________________________
                > Czechlist mailing list
                > Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
                > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >



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              • Sarka Rubkova
                Ústav pro jazyk český praví: Čárka ve spojení několikanásobných větných členů: spojení souřadné, bezespoječné, slučovací poměr Jsou-li
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 8, 2013
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                  Ústav pro jazyk český praví:
                  Čárka ve spojení několikanásobných větných členů: spojení souřadné,
                  bezespoječné, slučovací poměr
                  Jsou-li jednotlivé výrazy tvořící několikanásobný větný člen jen prostě
                  řazeny za sebou bez přítomnosti spojovacího výrazu, oddělujeme je čárkou.
                  (Tu znenadání promluvil jemný, lahodný hlas.)

                  Přívlastek několikanásobný a postupně rozvíjející
                  Ve spojení včerejší dostihový závod je podstatné jméno rozvito přívlastkem
                  dostihový a vzniklé spojení je dále rozvito přívlastkem včerejší. Takto
                  vzniká přívlastek postupně rozvíjející. Jediné substantivum může být rozvito
                  větším počtem přídavných jmen.
                  Přídavnými jmény v přívlastku můžeme také vyjádřit, že uvedené vlastnosti
                  podstatného jména jsou ve vztahu souřadnosti. Potom se jedná o přívlastek
                  několikanásobný a jeho jednotlivé složky je třeba oddělit čárkou.
                  Počáteční vývojová fáze (jedna z vývojových fází, např. proti
                  koncová/závěrečná vývojová fáze)
                  Počáteční, vývojová fáze (= počáteční, a to/tedy/rozuměj vývojová fáze);
                  závěrečná, výrobní fáze (= závěrečná, a to/tedy/rozuměj výrobní fáze)

                  sarka


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of Ing. Jiří Klíma
                  Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 8:38 AM
                  To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [Czechlist] "and" or comma

                  Ahoj vsem zucastnenym,

                  Pokud si pamatuji, tak muj vyborny ucitel cestiny na stredni skole nam pred
                  mnoha a mnoha lety vysvetloval rozdil mezi pouzivanim carky a spojky.

                  Pokud jde o vycet vlastnosti ruznych veci, tak se pouziva carka: "Mam
                  cervene, zelene, modre, fialove a zlute auto." (tedy 5 aut)

                  Pokud jde ale o rozsireni vlastnosti jedne věci nebo osoby, pouziva se
                  spojka "a": "Byl to hodny a ochotny clovek" (porad stejna osoba).

                  Snad to plati i dnes. Zdravi

                  Jirka



                  _____

                  From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of Jirka Bolech
                  Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 7:56 PM
                  To: czechlist@...
                  Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "and" or comma





                  Hi Jamie,

                  I've "always" thought you only put a comma between adjectives in the
                  attributive position (in a noun phrase) if they're of the same kind, that is
                  they describe the same kind of qualities. I've found a web page that even
                  says you _may_ put an 'and' between them:
                  http://thestar.com.my/english/story.asp?file=/2007/7/25/lifefocus/18254291
                  <http://thestar.com.my/english/story.asp?file=/2007/7/25/lifefocus/18254291&
                  sec=lifefocus.> &sec=lifefocus.

                  In my observation, this the kind of grammar even native speakers often
                  misuse. Well, hopefully not authors, journalists, translators, or editors...

                  Jirka Bolech

                  _______________________________________________
                  Czechlist mailing list
                  Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
                  http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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