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[Czechlist] "and" or comma

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  • James Kirchner
    Maybe I ve addressed this on the Czechlist before, but this issue has been driving me nuts in the TM in a job I m working on now, so I thought I d bring it up
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 6, 2013
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      Maybe I've addressed this on the Czechlist before, but this issue has been driving me nuts in the TM in a job I'm working on now, so I thought I'd bring it up for discussion:

      You shouldn't always put the word "and" between adjectives when it appears in Czech or German. Most of the time we just use a comma if the adjectives are supposed to apply to the noun at the same time.

      "safe, effective methods"
      "eager, intelligent children"

      But when the adjectives are in the predicate, you have to use "and":

      "The methods are safe and effective."
      "The children are eager and intelligent."

      The problem especially comes up when the adjectives modify a plural noun and come before that noun, because in that case, the English mind is prone to think the adjective is dividing the noun up into two categories:

      "male and female witnesses" (the ones who are male aren't female, and vice versa)
      "Polish and Chinese immigrants" (the ones who are Polish aren't Chinese, and vice versa)

      Because of this categorizing function of "and", the English mind (at least mine) can ping-pong when "and" is used between two adjectives that fully apply to the same noun, even if the meaning is clear:

      "safe and effective methods" (Maybe the ones that are safe aren't effective, and vice versa.)
      "eager and intelligent children" (Maybe the kids who are eager aren't intelligent and vice versa.)

      Note that there is a fixed phrase in American English, "wild and crazy" that started with two comedians on TV decades ago playing the role of oversexed but repulsive young immigrants from Czechoslovakia. One of the things that made these characters amusing to the audience was that they always put "and" between two pre-nominal adjectives, so instead of being "wild, crazy guys", they said, and became known as "wild and crazy guys". This phrase was adopted because viewers thought it was funny, although now it sounds normal to people who weren't born yet when the show was on. (These would be the generation of people who also wouldn't detect that the title "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" was originally very funny.)

      Anyway, watch where you put "and". We would never say "a big and noisy car", but "a big, noisy car".

      Jamie


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    • Petr
      Ja myslim, ze v cestine je to uplne stejne. I tady se rozsirilo, ze ve vyctu se delaji same carky a opomiji se pred poslednim slovem a ( metoda je rychla,
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 7, 2013
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        Ja myslim, ze v cestine je to uplne stejne. I tady se rozsirilo, ze ve vyctu se delaji same carky a opomiji se pred poslednim slovem "a" ("metoda je rychla, ucinna, usporna" misto spravnejsiho "metoda je rychla, ucinna a usporna" nebo "lekarnicka musi obsahovat naplast, obvaz, satek" misto "lekarnicka musi obsahovat naplast, obvaz a satek"). I ta gramaticka pravidla jsou v obou jazycich v podstate stejna, rekl bych.
        Petr Adamek
        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner wrote:
        >
        > Maybe I've addressed this on the Czechlist before, but this issue has been driving me nuts in the TM in a job I'm working on now, so I thought I'd bring it up for discussion:
        >
        > You shouldn't always put the word "and" between adjectives when it appears in Czech or German. Most of the time we just use a comma if the adjectives are supposed to apply to the noun at the same time.
        >
        > "safe, effective methods"
        > "eager, intelligent children"
        >
        > But when the adjectives are in the predicate, you have to use "and":
        >
        > "The methods are safe and effective."
        > "The children are eager and intelligent."
        >
        > The problem especially comes up when the adjectives modify a plural noun and come before that noun, because in that case, the English mind is prone to think the adjective is dividing the noun up into two categories:
        >
        > "male and female witnesses" (the ones who are male aren't female, and vice versa)
        > "Polish and Chinese immigrants" (the ones who are Polish aren't Chinese, and vice versa)
        >
        > Because of this categorizing function of "and", the English mind (at least mine) can ping-pong when "and" is used between two adjectives that fully apply to the same noun, even if the meaning is clear:
        >
        > "safe and effective methods" (Maybe the ones that are safe aren't effective, and vice versa.)
        > "eager and intelligent children" (Maybe the kids who are eager aren't intelligent and vice versa.)
        >
        > Note that there is a fixed phrase in American English, "wild and crazy" that started with two comedians on TV decades ago playing the role of oversexed but repulsive young immigrants from Czechoslovakia. One of the things that made these characters amusing to the audience was that they always put "and" between two pre-nominal adjectives, so instead of being "wild, crazy guys", they said, and became known as "wild and crazy guys". This phrase was adopted because viewers thought it was funny, although now it sounds normal to people who weren't born yet when the show was on. (These would be the generation of people who also wouldn't detect that the title "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" was originally very funny.)
        >
        > Anyway, watch where you put "and". We would never say "a big and noisy car", but "a big, noisy car".
        >
        > Jamie
        >
        >
        > _______________________________________________
        > Czechlist mailing list
        > Czechlist@...
        > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
        >
      • Martin Janda
        Ja bych skoro rekl, ze je to naopak. :-) Pod vlivem anglictiny potkavam cim dal casteji zretezena pridavna jmena bez carky i toho a - treba rychla ucinna
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 7, 2013
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          Ja bych skoro rekl, ze je to naopak. :-) Pod vlivem anglictiny potkavam
          cim dal casteji zretezena pridavna jmena bez carky i toho "a" - treba
          "rychla ucinna usporna pomoc", coz mi zni straslive (viz sdelovaci
          dativ). A pokud jsou adjektiva pred podstatnym jmenem dve, na rozdil od
          anglictiny tam patri i to "a" (rychla a ucinna pomoc). Pokud by ta
          adjektiva byla v protikladu, pouziju treba sluvko "i" (rychla i pomala
          pomoc se hodi).

          Martin


          Dne 7.1.2013 13:48, Petr napsal(a):
          >
          > Ja myslim, ze v cestine je to uplne stejne. I tady se rozsirilo, ze ve
          > vyctu se delaji same carky a opomiji se pred poslednim slovem "a"
          > ("metoda je rychla, ucinna, usporna" misto spravnejsiho "metoda je
          > rychla, ucinna a usporna" nebo "lekarnicka musi obsahovat naplast,
          > obvaz, satek" misto "lekarnicka musi obsahovat naplast, obvaz a
          > satek"). I ta gramaticka pravidla jsou v obou jazycich v podstate
          > stejna, rekl bych.
          > Petr Adamek
          > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>,
          > James Kirchner wrote:
          > >
          > > Maybe I've addressed this on the Czechlist before, but this issue
          > has been driving me nuts in the TM in a job I'm working on now, so I
          > thought I'd bring it up for discussion:
          > >
          > > You shouldn't always put the word "and" between adjectives when it
          > appears in Czech or German. Most of the time we just use a comma if
          > the adjectives are supposed to apply to the noun at the same time.
          > >
          > > "safe, effective methods"
          > > "eager, intelligent children"
          > >
          > > But when the adjectives are in the predicate, you have to use "and":
          > >
          > > "The methods are safe and effective."
          > > "The children are eager and intelligent."
          > >
          > > The problem especially comes up when the adjectives modify a plural
          > noun and come before that noun, because in that case, the English mind
          > is prone to think the adjective is dividing the noun up into two
          > categories:
          > >
          > > "male and female witnesses" (the ones who are male aren't female,
          > and vice versa)
          > > "Polish and Chinese immigrants" (the ones who are Polish aren't
          > Chinese, and vice versa)
          > >
          > > Because of this categorizing function of "and", the English mind (at
          > least mine) can ping-pong when "and" is used between two adjectives
          > that fully apply to the same noun, even if the meaning is clear:
          > >
          > > "safe and effective methods" (Maybe the ones that are safe aren't
          > effective, and vice versa.)
          > > "eager and intelligent children" (Maybe the kids who are eager
          > aren't intelligent and vice versa.)
          > >
          > > Note that there is a fixed phrase in American English, "wild and
          > crazy" that started with two comedians on TV decades ago playing the
          > role of oversexed but repulsive young immigrants from Czechoslovakia.
          > One of the things that made these characters amusing to the audience
          > was that they always put "and" between two pre-nominal adjectives, so
          > instead of being "wild, crazy guys", they said, and became known as
          > "wild and crazy guys". This phrase was adopted because viewers thought
          > it was funny, although now it sounds normal to people who weren't born
          > yet when the show was on. (These would be the generation of people who
          > also wouldn't detect that the title "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" was
          > originally very funny.)
          > >
          > > Anyway, watch where you put "and". We would never say "a big and
          > noisy car", but "a big, noisy car".
          > >
          > > Jamie
          > >
          > >
          > > _______________________________________________
          > > Czechlist mailing list
          > > Czechlist@...
          > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
          > >
          >
          >
        • Jirka Bolech
          Hi Jamie, I ve always thought you only put a comma between adjectives in the attributive position (in a noun phrase) if they re of the same kind, that is
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 7, 2013
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            Hi Jamie,

            I've "always" thought you only put a comma between adjectives in the
            attributive position (in a noun phrase) if they're of the same kind,
            that is they describe the same kind of qualities. I've found a web page
            that even says you _may_ put an 'and' between them:
            http://thestar.com.my/english/story.asp?file=/2007/7/25/lifefocus/18254291&sec=lifefocus.

            In my observation, this the kind of grammar even native speakers often
            misuse. Well, hopefully not authors, journalists, translators, or editors...

            Jirka Bolech


            _______________________________________________
            Czechlist mailing list
            Czechlist@...
            http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
          • James Kirchner
            I disagree with the examples in the initial part of the article, but it s going to take me a little while to see if my objections can be substantiated. I ll
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 7, 2013
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              I disagree with the examples in the initial part of the article, but it's going to take me a little while to see if my objections can be substantiated.

              I'll look it up.

              Jamie

              On Jan 7, 2013, at 1:56 PM, Jirka Bolech wrote:

              > Hi Jamie,
              >
              > I've "always" thought you only put a comma between adjectives in the attributive position (in a noun phrase) if they're of the same kind, that is they describe the same kind of qualities. I've found a web page that even says you _may_ put an 'and' between them: http://thestar.com.my/english/story.asp?file=/2007/7/25/lifefocus/18254291&sec=lifefocus.
              >
              > In my observation, this the kind of grammar even native speakers often misuse. Well, hopefully not authors, journalists, translators, or editors...
              >
              > Jirka Bolech
              >
              >
              > _______________________________________________
              > Czechlist mailing list
              > Czechlist@...
              > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


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              Czechlist@...
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            • Ing. Jiří Klíma
              Ahoj vsem zucastnenym, Pokud si pamatuji, tak muj vyborny ucitel cestiny na stredni skole nam pred mnoha a mnoha lety vysvetloval rozdil mezi pouzivanim carky
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 7, 2013
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                Ahoj vsem zucastnenym,

                Pokud si pamatuji, tak muj vyborny ucitel cestiny na stredni skole nam pred
                mnoha a mnoha lety vysvetloval rozdil mezi pouzivanim carky a spojky.

                Pokud jde o vycet vlastnosti ruznych veci, tak se pouziva carka: "Mam
                cervene, zelene, modre, fialove a zlute auto." (tedy 5 aut)

                Pokud jde ale o rozsireni vlastnosti jedne v�ci nebo osoby, pouziva se
                spojka "a": "Byl to hodny a ochotny clovek" (porad stejna osoba).

                Snad to plati i dnes. Zdravi

                Jirka



                _____

                From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of Jirka Bolech
                Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 7:56 PM
                To: czechlist@...
                Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "and" or comma





                Hi Jamie,

                I've "always" thought you only put a comma between adjectives in the
                attributive position (in a noun phrase) if they're of the same kind,
                that is they describe the same kind of qualities. I've found a web page
                that even says you _may_ put an 'and' between them:
                http://thestar.com.my/english/story.asp?file=/2007/7/25/lifefocus/18254291
                <http://thestar.com.my/english/story.asp?file=/2007/7/25/lifefocus/18254291&
                sec=lifefocus.> &sec=lifefocus.

                In my observation, this the kind of grammar even native speakers often
                misuse. Well, hopefully not authors, journalists, translators, or editors...

                Jirka Bolech

                _______________________________________________
                Czechlist mailing list
                Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
                http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Martin Janda
                A jak to vyresis, kdyz jsou auta jen dvou barev a rozsirujici vlastnosti ctyri? Mam cervene, zelene auto? Byl to hodny a mily a ochotny a nezistny clovek ? To
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 8, 2013
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                  A jak to vyresis, kdyz jsou auta jen dvou barev a rozsirujici vlastnosti
                  ctyri? Mam cervene, zelene auto? Byl to hodny a mily a ochotny a
                  nezistny clovek"? To mi moc nezni. Stale si myslim, ze delici klic je v
                  poctu adjektiv.

                  M.


                  Dne 8.1.2013 8:38, Ing. Jiří Klíma napsal(a):
                  > Ahoj vsem zucastnenym,
                  >
                  > Pokud si pamatuji, tak muj vyborny ucitel cestiny na stredni skole nam pred
                  > mnoha a mnoha lety vysvetloval rozdil mezi pouzivanim carky a spojky.
                  >
                  > Pokud jde o vycet vlastnosti ruznych veci, tak se pouziva carka: "Mam
                  > cervene, zelene, modre, fialove a zlute auto." (tedy 5 aut)
                  >
                  > Pokud jde ale o rozsireni vlastnosti jedne věci nebo osoby, pouziva se
                  > spojka "a": "Byl to hodny a ochotny clovek" (porad stejna osoba).
                  >
                  > Snad to plati i dnes. Zdravi
                  >
                  > Jirka
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > _____
                  >
                  > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  > Of Jirka Bolech
                  > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 7:56 PM
                  > To: czechlist@...
                  > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "and" or comma
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Jamie,
                  >
                  > I've "always" thought you only put a comma between adjectives in the
                  > attributive position (in a noun phrase) if they're of the same kind,
                  > that is they describe the same kind of qualities. I've found a web page
                  > that even says you _may_ put an 'and' between them:
                  > http://thestar.com.my/english/story.asp?file=/2007/7/25/lifefocus/18254291
                  > <http://thestar.com.my/english/story.asp?file=/2007/7/25/lifefocus/18254291&
                  > sec=lifefocus.> &sec=lifefocus.
                  >
                  > In my observation, this the kind of grammar even native speakers often
                  > misuse. Well, hopefully not authors, journalists, translators, or editors...
                  >
                  > Jirka Bolech
                  >
                  > _______________________________________________
                  > Czechlist mailing list
                  > Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
                  > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Sarka Rubkova
                  Èervenozelené auto, Martine ... From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Martin Janda Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 8, 2013
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                    Červenozelené auto, Martine

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    Of Martin Janda
                    Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 10:36 AM
                    To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "and" or comma

                    A jak to vyresis, kdyz jsou auta jen dvou barev a rozsirujici vlastnosti
                    ctyri? Mam cervene, zelene auto? Byl to hodny a mily a ochotny a nezistny
                    clovek"? To mi moc nezni. Stale si myslim, ze delici klic je v poctu
                    adjektiv.

                    M.


                    Dne 8.1.2013 8:38, Ing. Jiří Klíma napsal(a):
                    > Ahoj vsem zucastnenym,
                    >
                    > Pokud si pamatuji, tak muj vyborny ucitel cestiny na stredni skole nam
                    pred
                    > mnoha a mnoha lety vysvetloval rozdil mezi pouzivanim carky a spojky.
                    >
                    > Pokud jde o vycet vlastnosti ruznych veci, tak se pouziva carka: "Mam
                    > cervene, zelene, modre, fialove a zlute auto." (tedy 5 aut)
                    >
                    > Pokud jde ale o rozsireni vlastnosti jedne věci nebo osoby, pouziva se
                    > spojka "a": "Byl to hodny a ochotny clovek" (porad stejna osoba).
                    >
                    > Snad to plati i dnes. Zdravi
                    >
                    > Jirka
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf
                    > Of Jirka Bolech
                    > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 7:56 PM
                    > To: czechlist@...
                    > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "and" or comma
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Jamie,
                    >
                    > I've "always" thought you only put a comma between adjectives in the
                    > attributive position (in a noun phrase) if they're of the same kind,
                    > that is they describe the same kind of qualities. I've found a web page
                    > that even says you _may_ put an 'and' between them:
                    > http://thestar.com.my/english/story.asp?file=/2007/7/25/lifefocus/18254291
                    >
                    <http://thestar.com.my/english/story.asp?file=/2007/7/25/lifefocus/18254291&
                    > sec=lifefocus.> &sec=lifefocus.
                    >
                    > In my observation, this the kind of grammar even native speakers often
                    > misuse. Well, hopefully not authors, journalists, translators, or
                    editors...
                    >
                    > Jirka Bolech
                    >
                    > _______________________________________________
                    > Czechlist mailing list
                    > Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
                    > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >



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                  • Sarka Rubkova
                    Ústav pro jazyk český praví: Čárka ve spojení několikanásobných větných členů: spojení souřadné, bezespoječné, slučovací poměr Jsou-li
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jan 8, 2013
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                      Ústav pro jazyk český praví:
                      Čárka ve spojení několikanásobných větných členů: spojení souřadné,
                      bezespoječné, slučovací poměr
                      Jsou-li jednotlivé výrazy tvořící několikanásobný větný člen jen prostě
                      řazeny za sebou bez přítomnosti spojovacího výrazu, oddělujeme je čárkou.
                      (Tu znenadání promluvil jemný, lahodný hlas.)

                      Přívlastek několikanásobný a postupně rozvíjející
                      Ve spojení včerejší dostihový závod je podstatné jméno rozvito přívlastkem
                      dostihový a vzniklé spojení je dále rozvito přívlastkem včerejší. Takto
                      vzniká přívlastek postupně rozvíjející. Jediné substantivum může být rozvito
                      větším počtem přídavných jmen.
                      Přídavnými jmény v přívlastku můžeme také vyjádřit, že uvedené vlastnosti
                      podstatného jména jsou ve vztahu souřadnosti. Potom se jedná o přívlastek
                      několikanásobný a jeho jednotlivé složky je třeba oddělit čárkou.
                      Počáteční vývojová fáze (jedna z vývojových fází, např. proti
                      koncová/závěrečná vývojová fáze)
                      Počáteční, vývojová fáze (= počáteční, a to/tedy/rozuměj vývojová fáze);
                      závěrečná, výrobní fáze (= závěrečná, a to/tedy/rozuměj výrobní fáze)

                      sarka


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      Of Ing. Jiří Klíma
                      Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 8:38 AM
                      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [Czechlist] "and" or comma

                      Ahoj vsem zucastnenym,

                      Pokud si pamatuji, tak muj vyborny ucitel cestiny na stredni skole nam pred
                      mnoha a mnoha lety vysvetloval rozdil mezi pouzivanim carky a spojky.

                      Pokud jde o vycet vlastnosti ruznych veci, tak se pouziva carka: "Mam
                      cervene, zelene, modre, fialove a zlute auto." (tedy 5 aut)

                      Pokud jde ale o rozsireni vlastnosti jedne věci nebo osoby, pouziva se
                      spojka "a": "Byl to hodny a ochotny clovek" (porad stejna osoba).

                      Snad to plati i dnes. Zdravi

                      Jirka



                      _____

                      From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      Of Jirka Bolech
                      Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 7:56 PM
                      To: czechlist@...
                      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "and" or comma





                      Hi Jamie,

                      I've "always" thought you only put a comma between adjectives in the
                      attributive position (in a noun phrase) if they're of the same kind, that is
                      they describe the same kind of qualities. I've found a web page that even
                      says you _may_ put an 'and' between them:
                      http://thestar.com.my/english/story.asp?file=/2007/7/25/lifefocus/18254291
                      <http://thestar.com.my/english/story.asp?file=/2007/7/25/lifefocus/18254291&
                      sec=lifefocus.> &sec=lifefocus.

                      In my observation, this the kind of grammar even native speakers often
                      misuse. Well, hopefully not authors, journalists, translators, or editors...

                      Jirka Bolech

                      _______________________________________________
                      Czechlist mailing list
                      Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
                      http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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