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Re[2]: [Czechlist] Re: Long adjectival phrases revisited plus season's greetings

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  • (no author)
    ... seconded M ... From: Charles Stanford To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: 31.12.2012 11:55:57 Subject: Re:
    Message 1 of 32 , Dec 31 3:01 AM
      ... seconded

      ------ Original Message ------
      From: "Charles Stanford" <charliestanfordtranslations@...>
      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: 31.12.2012 11:55:57
      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Long adjectival phrases revisited plus
      season's greetings
      > I don't think that there is too much harshness implied in "Not much
      >dwelling on why exactly xxx is just plain wrong" Jiri. May have
      >sounded a
      >bit that way but I am sure Melvyn just meant that it was just obvious
      >it was wrong. I have not really been following this thread but this is
      >a good forum and Melvyn is a vital part of that and goes to a lot of
      >to provide intelligent insight, so I think he needs to be cut a bit of
      >slack. I am sure it was not intended as a sharp put-down. The Internet
      >be a bit dangerous sometimes because we dash things off without ever
      >any face-to-face/voice-to-voice contact, but I really don't think that
      >is something to get too steamed up about.
      >On 31 December 2012 02:17, Pilucha, Jiri <jiri.pilucha@...> wrote:
      >> Oh yes, it was harsh, and very much so; in fact quite unprecedented
      >in the
      >> history of this forum.
      >> As for my discrepancy, how do I explain it? Human error, as simple as
      >> that. I spoke of "the second of your examples" where the first one
      >> "Mytim cerena, pohybujici se bublinkova pena....." and then my eyes
      >> scanned the second paragraph, "The suds, whipped up by the washing
      >> and constantly in motion...", and in a fraction of a second I jumped
      >to the
      >> conclusion "Hey this is exactly the right order of words", without
      >> realizing that I was actually reading an English sentence, and
      >funnier than
      >> that, an English translation of the first one. I apologize for my
      >error. It
      >> does not change the fact, though, that creative writers have a
      >license to
      >> do whatever they want and an example like that is, in my opinion,
      >> irrelevant in this debate.
      >> And yes, I am totally missing your basic point insofar as your
      >> as a translator is to be looking at all costs for the least good of
      >> options and exert enormous effort explaining how it cannot
      >unequivocally be
      >> described as outright wrong.
      >> It is curious how you avoid going to an undisputable authority such
      >as UJC
      >> or UBS. I will gladly pay the 3 hundred myself and then re-send their
      >> response. And accept their verdict, and apologize if proven wrong.
      >> High school teachers? Been there.
      >> Jiri
      >> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
      >> Behalf Of Melvyn
      >> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 11:19 AM
      >> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      >> Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Long adjectival phrases revisited plus
      >> greetings
      >> >Are you serious in putting forward a quote from an author of
      >> prose highly idiosyncratic in his innovating usage of language
      >(Topol) as
      >> being relevant in an argument concerning standardized grammar?
      >> Jiří, you sent two messages stating that Topol wrote his
      >> with the long pre-noun insert CORRECTLY (your capitals),
      >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/50347
      >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/50348
      >> Now you are coming out with a quite different argument. How do you
      >> this strange discrepancy?
      >> My interest, as I have said (viz "decent Czech or not..." etc), is
      >> actually in characterizing the style of usage, e.g. can it be
      >described as
      >> academic, archaic, formal, literary etc etc, given that such
      >structures do
      >> crop up? But think descriptive not prescriptive.
      >> Your latest argument goes to show (to me at least) that Topol can
      >> sentences of "winged" prose, which many people admire, and yet which
      >> found (at least by some) to be ungrammatical.
      >> But does that make them any less decent? Not according to your
      >> above. And there perhaps is the rub. It is surely quite possible to
      >> decently and appropriately (and "literarily") without writing
      >> We can all name dozens of other modern and not-so-modern authors who
      >> non-standardly one way or another. And we translators have to deal
      >> them all.
      >> >Some time ago you wrote here (in response to my question "What
      >> would be wrong with xxx") : "Not much point dwelling on why exactly
      >xxx is
      >> just plain wrong". I was rather perplexed at such a harsh response,
      >> Not harsh at all. I say exactly the same thing to anybody, native or
      >> non-native, who asks questions that can best be answered "it just
      >is". Life
      >> is short, this way we focus on more useful tasks, and in a context
      >where I
      >> answered two other points at some length while I was busy, well, I
      >do not
      >> think you were too badly done by. Quite the contrary.
      >> I should also point out that this list has lots of non-Czechs like
      >me who
      >> make various comments on the Czech language (and Czechs who make
      >> comments on the English language) -- for your edification or
      >otherwise. If
      >> this is ever hard to handle then there is not much I can do for you.
      >> >Send a written query to Jazykova poradna UJC and/or Ustav
      >> studii University Karlovy and ask them which of the following is
      >> Czech.
      >> Again I think you are missing a basic point that I have been making
      >> throughout this thread. I could send all kinds of professional,
      >> hypercorrect, low colloquial, slang, dialectal and archaic language
      >> equivalents in standard everyday Czech and it would be no surprise
      >if they
      >> pointed out the non-standard nature of the original sentences in
      >> comparison. But the sentences in question could still be the most
      >> appropriate or characteristic in their given context (e.g. use of
      >> language in some ceremonies, use of obecná čeština in fiction
      >> reportage - not decent Czech?). And that is what interests me - their
      >> typical style, register, domain etc. Check the thread as I am
      >> myself.
      >> BTW I believe the language advice centre now charges a minimum of
      >> hundred crowns for written responses. I shall check to see if they
      >> gift vouchers.
      >> >(and by the way, what "teachers" are you talking about? High school?
      >> Please give me a break.
      >> And what is wrong with high school teachers? A finer bunch of people
      >> have never met.
      >> Regards,
      >> M.
      >> P.S. Jamie, I see the humour:
      >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/50331
      >> But am I missing something here?
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >> ------------------------------------
      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Martin Janda
      Ach jo, no tak ja to zkusim. Ale nezarucuju, ze mi to dlouho vydrzi :-) Porad jeste Martin
      Message 32 of 32 , Jan 4, 2013
        Ach jo, no tak ja to zkusim. Ale nezarucuju, ze mi to dlouho vydrzi :-)

        Porad jeste Martin

        Dne 3.1.2013 17:51, Sarka Rubkova napsal(a):
        > Pravda je, že někdy (tedy dost často) odesilatele jako osobu ve
        > zprávách nemám a ani předmět. Jen nechápu, když už tenhle problém
        > existuje, jakože ano, že je pro vás tak obrovský problém psát celé
        > jméno. Je to jen o 4 nebo 5 písmen víc. Když je to tak moc, můžete
        > psát iniciály celého jména.
        > Sarka
        > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
        > [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Martin Janda
        > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 5:38 PM
        > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] M for Matej?
        > Hmmm, fakt je, ze i ja u nekterych lidi (treba Jamie) mel jako
        > odesilatel uvedeno Zdenka Taborskeho (ktery myslim funguje jako
        > webmaster). Asi mesic jsem zasl, jak skvele Zdenek umi anglicky, a pak
        > mi to doslo.Musel jsem si tu adresu prejmenovat, aby mne to nematlo.
        > Ale vzhledem k tomu, ze tohle je prvni reklamace na nase spolecne
        > inicialy po nekolika letech, snad to nebudetak palcivy problem....?
        > Navic, Melvyn vetsinou reaguje na uplne jine prispevky, nez ja s
        > Matejem, takze jeho odliseni neni tak tezke...?
        > Teoreticky bychom mohli zavest dvojpismenne zkratky, aleMa a Mt mame
        > spolecne, a Mj jako Matej se zas bude plest s Martin Janda.
        > Druhy M
        > jako Martin
        > Dne 3.1.2013 16:57, Matej Klimes napsal(a):
        > >
        > > Mimochodem Petre, nevim, co s Tim dela Tvuj postovni klient nebo
        > > prohlizec a kde si Czechlist stahujes nebo ctes, ale u te adresy,
        > > kterou pouzivam, mam vyplneno oficialni jmeno jako Matej Klimes a kdyz
        > > se moje zprava stahne pres Czechlist, tak v kolonce FROM je proste
        > > Matej Klimes, nemusis se ani divat na mail... proto mi iniciala M
        > > pripada dostatecna, divne, ze u Tebe to vidis jako No author a No
        > > address, s tim jsem nepocital
        > >
        > > M
        > > ------ Original Message ------
        > > From: "Petr" padamek@... <mailto:padamek%40chello.cz> >
        > > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: 1.1.2013 12:42:23
        > > Subject: [Czechlist] M for Matej?
        > > > Mateji, kdyz vidim "No author", "No address" a text "Seconded M".,
        > > >vubec nevim, kdo to poslal, respektive hadam, jestli je to Melvyn nebo
        > > >Ty, a teprve pomoci "matejklimes" rozlustim, ze jsi to Ty. Doporucuji
        > > >proto, abys "M" nechal Melvynovi a nadale byl "Matej".
        > > >Jinak vsechno nejlepsi do noveho roku.
        > > >Zdravi Petr Adamek
        > > >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > , "Matej Klimes" wrote:
        > > >>
        > > >> ... seconded
        > > >>
        > > >> M
        > > >
        > > >_.___
        > >
        > >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJwbDRjajBzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzMyODk2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNDM1ODgEbXNnSWQDNTA0NDIEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxMzU3MjI4NjQx?act=reply
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJwbDRjajBzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzMyODk2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNDM1ODgEbXNnSWQDNTA0NDIEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxMzU3MjI4NjQx?act=reply&messageNum=50442>
        > &messageNum=50442>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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