Re: [Czechlist] Re: Long adjectival phrases revisited plus season's greetings
- I don't think that there is too much harshness implied in "Not much point
dwelling on why exactly xxx is just plain wrong" Jiri. May have sounded a
bit that way but I am sure Melvyn just meant that it was just obvious why
it was wrong. I have not really been following this thread but this is such
a good forum and Melvyn is a vital part of that and goes to a lot of length
to provide intelligent insight, so I think he needs to be cut a bit of
slack. I am sure it was not intended as a sharp put-down. The Internet can
be a bit dangerous sometimes because we dash things off without ever having
any face-to-face/voice-to-voice contact, but I really don't think that it
is something to get too steamed up about.
On 31 December 2012 02:17, Pilucha, Jiri <jiri.pilucha@...> wrote:
> Oh yes, it was harsh, and very much so; in fact quite unprecedented in the
> history of this forum.
> As for my discrepancy, how do I explain it? Human error, as simple as
> that. I spoke of "the second of your examples" where the first one was
> "Mytim cerena, pohybujici se bublinkova pena....." and then my eyes hastily
> scanned the second paragraph, "The suds, whipped up by the washing process
> and constantly in motion...", and in a fraction of a second I jumped to the
> conclusion "Hey this is exactly the right order of words", without
> realizing that I was actually reading an English sentence, and funnier than
> that, an English translation of the first one. I apologize for my error. It
> does not change the fact, though, that creative writers have a license to
> do whatever they want and an example like that is, in my opinion,
> irrelevant in this debate.
> And yes, I am totally missing your basic point insofar as your objective
> as a translator is to be looking at all costs for the least good of all
> options and exert enormous effort explaining how it cannot unequivocally be
> described as outright wrong.
> It is curious how you avoid going to an undisputable authority such as UJC
> or UBS. I will gladly pay the 3 hundred myself and then re-send their
> response. And accept their verdict, and apologize if proven wrong.
> High school teachers? Been there.
> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Melvyn
> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 11:19 AM
> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Long adjectival phrases revisited plus season's
> >Are you serious in putting forward a quote from an author of experimental
> prose highly idiosyncratic in his innovating usage of language (Topol) as
> being relevant in an argument concerning standardized grammar?
> Jiří, you sent two messages stating that Topol wrote his sentence
> with the long pre-noun insert CORRECTLY (your capitals),
> Now you are coming out with a quite different argument. How do you explain
> this strange discrepancy?
> My interest, as I have said (viz "decent Czech or not..." etc), is
> actually in characterizing the style of usage, e.g. can it be described as
> academic, archaic, formal, literary etc etc, given that such structures do
> crop up? But think descriptive not prescriptive.
> Your latest argument goes to show (to me at least) that Topol can write
> sentences of "winged" prose, which many people admire, and yet which are
> found (at least by some) to be ungrammatical.
> But does that make them any less decent? Not according to your answers
> above. And there perhaps is the rub. It is surely quite possible to write
> decently and appropriately (and "literarily") without writing "correctly".
> We can all name dozens of other modern and not-so-modern authors who write
> non-standardly one way or another. And we translators have to deal with
> them all.
> >Some time ago you wrote here (in response to my question "What exactly
> would be wrong with xxx") : "Not much point dwelling on why exactly xxx is
> just plain wrong". I was rather perplexed at such a harsh response,
> Not harsh at all. I say exactly the same thing to anybody, native or
> non-native, who asks questions that can best be answered "it just is". Life
> is short, this way we focus on more useful tasks, and in a context where I
> answered two other points at some length while I was busy, well, I do not
> think you were too badly done by. Quite the contrary.
> I should also point out that this list has lots of non-Czechs like me who
> make various comments on the Czech language (and Czechs who make insightful
> comments on the English language) -- for your edification or otherwise. If
> this is ever hard to handle then there is not much I can do for you.
> >Send a written query to Jazykova poradna UJC and/or Ustav bohemistickych
> studii University Karlovy and ask them which of the following is decent
> Again I think you are missing a basic point that I have been making
> throughout this thread. I could send all kinds of professional,
> hypercorrect, low colloquial, slang, dialectal and archaic language with
> equivalents in standard everyday Czech and it would be no surprise if they
> pointed out the non-standard nature of the original sentences in
> comparison. But the sentences in question could still be the most
> appropriate or characteristic in their given context (e.g. use of archaic
> language in some ceremonies, use of obecná čeština in fiction and
> reportage - not decent Czech?). And that is what interests me - their
> typical style, register, domain etc. Check the thread as I am repeating
> BTW I believe the language advice centre now charges a minimum of three
> hundred crowns for written responses. I shall check to see if they offer
> gift vouchers.
> >(and by the way, what "teachers" are you talking about? High school?
> Please give me a break.
> And what is wrong with high school teachers? A finer bunch of people I
> have never met.
> P.S. Jamie, I see the humour:
> But am I missing something here?
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- Ach jo, no tak ja to zkusim. Ale nezarucuju, ze mi to dlouho vydrzi :-)
Porad jeste Martin
Dne 3.1.2013 17:51, Sarka Rubkova napsal(a):
> Pravda je, že někdy (tedy dost často) odesilatele jako osobu ve
> zprávách nemám a ani předmět. Jen nechápu, když už tenhle problém
> existuje, jakože ano, že je pro vás tak obrovský problém psát celé
> jméno. Je to jen o 4 nebo 5 písmen víc. Když je to tak moc, můžete
> psát iniciály celého jména.
> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Martin Janda
> Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 5:38 PM
> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] M for Matej?
> Hmmm, fakt je, ze i ja u nekterych lidi (treba Jamie) mel jako
> odesilatel uvedeno Zdenka Taborskeho (ktery myslim funguje jako
> webmaster). Asi mesic jsem zasl, jak skvele Zdenek umi anglicky, a pak
> mi to doslo.Musel jsem si tu adresu prejmenovat, aby mne to nematlo.
> Ale vzhledem k tomu, ze tohle je prvni reklamace na nase spolecne
> inicialy po nekolika letech, snad to nebudetak palcivy problem....?
> Navic, Melvyn vetsinou reaguje na uplne jine prispevky, nez ja s
> Matejem, takze jeho odliseni neni tak tezke...?
> Teoreticky bychom mohli zavest dvojpismenne zkratky, aleMa a Mt mame
> spolecne, a Mj jako Matej se zas bude plest s Martin Janda.
> Druhy M
> jako Martin
> Dne 3.1.2013 16:57, Matej Klimes napsal(a):
> > Mimochodem Petre, nevim, co s Tim dela Tvuj postovni klient nebo
> > prohlizec a kde si Czechlist stahujes nebo ctes, ale u te adresy,
> > kterou pouzivam, mam vyplneno oficialni jmeno jako Matej Klimes a kdyz
> > se moje zprava stahne pres Czechlist, tak v kolonce FROM je proste
> > Matej Klimes, nemusis se ani divat na mail... proto mi iniciala M
> > pripada dostatecna, divne, ze u Tebe to vidis jako No author a No
> > address, s tim jsem nepocital
> > M
> > ------ Original Message ------
> > From: "Petr" padamek@... <mailto:padamek%40chello.cz> >
> > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: 1.1.2013 12:42:23
> > Subject: [Czechlist] M for Matej?
> > > Mateji, kdyz vidim "No author", "No address" a text "Seconded M".,
> > >vubec nevim, kdo to poslal, respektive hadam, jestli je to Melvyn nebo
> > >Ty, a teprve pomoci "matejklimes" rozlustim, ze jsi to Ty. Doporucuji
> > >proto, abys "M" nechal Melvynovi a nadale byl "Matej".
> > >Jinak vsechno nejlepsi do noveho roku.
> > >Zdravi Petr Adamek
> > >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
> > , "Matej Klimes" wrote:
> > >>
> > >> ... seconded
> > >>
> > >> M
> > >
> > >_.___
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]