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Re: [Czechlist] Re: Long adjectival phrases revisited plus season's greetings

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  • Charles Stanford
    I don t think that there is too much harshness implied in Not much point dwelling on why exactly xxx is just plain wrong Jiri. May have sounded a bit that
    Message 1 of 32 , Dec 31, 2012
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      I don't think that there is too much harshness implied in "Not much point
      dwelling on why exactly xxx is just plain wrong" Jiri. May have sounded a
      bit that way but I am sure Melvyn just meant that it was just obvious why
      it was wrong. I have not really been following this thread but this is such
      a good forum and Melvyn is a vital part of that and goes to a lot of length
      to provide intelligent insight, so I think he needs to be cut a bit of
      slack. I am sure it was not intended as a sharp put-down. The Internet can
      be a bit dangerous sometimes because we dash things off without ever having
      any face-to-face/voice-to-voice contact, but I really don't think that it
      is something to get too steamed up about.

      On 31 December 2012 02:17, Pilucha, Jiri <jiri.pilucha@...> wrote:

      > Oh yes, it was harsh, and very much so; in fact quite unprecedented in the
      > history of this forum.
      > As for my discrepancy, how do I explain it? Human error, as simple as
      > that. I spoke of "the second of your examples" where the first one was
      > "Mytim cerena, pohybujici se bublinkova pena....." and then my eyes hastily
      > scanned the second paragraph, "The suds, whipped up by the washing process
      > and constantly in motion...", and in a fraction of a second I jumped to the
      > conclusion "Hey this is exactly the right order of words", without
      > realizing that I was actually reading an English sentence, and funnier than
      > that, an English translation of the first one. I apologize for my error. It
      > does not change the fact, though, that creative writers have a license to
      > do whatever they want and an example like that is, in my opinion,
      > irrelevant in this debate.
      > And yes, I am totally missing your basic point insofar as your objective
      > as a translator is to be looking at all costs for the least good of all
      > options and exert enormous effort explaining how it cannot unequivocally be
      > described as outright wrong.
      > It is curious how you avoid going to an undisputable authority such as UJC
      > or UBS. I will gladly pay the 3 hundred myself and then re-send their
      > response. And accept their verdict, and apologize if proven wrong.
      > High school teachers? Been there.
      > Jiri
      > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of Melvyn
      > Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 11:19 AM
      > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Long adjectival phrases revisited plus season's
      > greetings
      > >Are you serious in putting forward a quote from an author of experimental
      > prose highly idiosyncratic in his innovating usage of language (Topol) as
      > being relevant in an argument concerning standardized grammar?
      > Jiří, you sent two messages stating that Topol wrote his sentence
      > with the long pre-noun insert CORRECTLY (your capitals),
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/50347
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/50348
      > Now you are coming out with a quite different argument. How do you explain
      > this strange discrepancy?
      > My interest, as I have said (viz "decent Czech or not..." etc), is
      > actually in characterizing the style of usage, e.g. can it be described as
      > academic, archaic, formal, literary etc etc, given that such structures do
      > crop up? But think descriptive not prescriptive.
      > Your latest argument goes to show (to me at least) that Topol can write
      > sentences of "winged" prose, which many people admire, and yet which are
      > found (at least by some) to be ungrammatical.
      > But does that make them any less decent? Not according to your answers
      > above. And there perhaps is the rub. It is surely quite possible to write
      > decently and appropriately (and "literarily") without writing "correctly".
      > We can all name dozens of other modern and not-so-modern authors who write
      > non-standardly one way or another. And we translators have to deal with
      > them all.
      > >Some time ago you wrote here (in response to my question "What exactly
      > would be wrong with xxx") : "Not much point dwelling on why exactly xxx is
      > just plain wrong". I was rather perplexed at such a harsh response,
      > Not harsh at all. I say exactly the same thing to anybody, native or
      > non-native, who asks questions that can best be answered "it just is". Life
      > is short, this way we focus on more useful tasks, and in a context where I
      > answered two other points at some length while I was busy, well, I do not
      > think you were too badly done by. Quite the contrary.
      > I should also point out that this list has lots of non-Czechs like me who
      > make various comments on the Czech language (and Czechs who make insightful
      > comments on the English language) -- for your edification or otherwise. If
      > this is ever hard to handle then there is not much I can do for you.
      > >Send a written query to Jazykova poradna UJC and/or Ustav bohemistickych
      > studii University Karlovy and ask them which of the following is decent
      > Czech.
      > Again I think you are missing a basic point that I have been making
      > throughout this thread. I could send all kinds of professional,
      > hypercorrect, low colloquial, slang, dialectal and archaic language with
      > equivalents in standard everyday Czech and it would be no surprise if they
      > pointed out the non-standard nature of the original sentences in
      > comparison. But the sentences in question could still be the most
      > appropriate or characteristic in their given context (e.g. use of archaic
      > language in some ceremonies, use of obecná čeština in fiction and
      > reportage - not decent Czech?). And that is what interests me - their
      > typical style, register, domain etc. Check the thread as I am repeating
      > myself.
      > BTW I believe the language advice centre now charges a minimum of three
      > hundred crowns for written responses. I shall check to see if they offer
      > gift vouchers.
      > >(and by the way, what "teachers" are you talking about? High school?
      > Please give me a break.
      > And what is wrong with high school teachers? A finer bunch of people I
      > have never met.
      > Regards,
      > M.
      > P.S. Jamie, I see the humour:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/50331
      > But am I missing something here?
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > ------------------------------------
      > Yahoo! Groups Links

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Martin Janda
      Ach jo, no tak ja to zkusim. Ale nezarucuju, ze mi to dlouho vydrzi :-) Porad jeste Martin
      Message 32 of 32 , Jan 4, 2013
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        Ach jo, no tak ja to zkusim. Ale nezarucuju, ze mi to dlouho vydrzi :-)

        Porad jeste Martin

        Dne 3.1.2013 17:51, Sarka Rubkova napsal(a):
        > Pravda je, že někdy (tedy dost často) odesilatele jako osobu ve
        > zprávách nemám a ani předmět. Jen nechápu, když už tenhle problém
        > existuje, jakože ano, že je pro vás tak obrovský problém psát celé
        > jméno. Je to jen o 4 nebo 5 písmen víc. Když je to tak moc, můžete
        > psát iniciály celého jména.
        > Sarka
        > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
        > [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Martin Janda
        > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 5:38 PM
        > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] M for Matej?
        > Hmmm, fakt je, ze i ja u nekterych lidi (treba Jamie) mel jako
        > odesilatel uvedeno Zdenka Taborskeho (ktery myslim funguje jako
        > webmaster). Asi mesic jsem zasl, jak skvele Zdenek umi anglicky, a pak
        > mi to doslo.Musel jsem si tu adresu prejmenovat, aby mne to nematlo.
        > Ale vzhledem k tomu, ze tohle je prvni reklamace na nase spolecne
        > inicialy po nekolika letech, snad to nebudetak palcivy problem....?
        > Navic, Melvyn vetsinou reaguje na uplne jine prispevky, nez ja s
        > Matejem, takze jeho odliseni neni tak tezke...?
        > Teoreticky bychom mohli zavest dvojpismenne zkratky, aleMa a Mt mame
        > spolecne, a Mj jako Matej se zas bude plest s Martin Janda.
        > Druhy M
        > jako Martin
        > Dne 3.1.2013 16:57, Matej Klimes napsal(a):
        > >
        > > Mimochodem Petre, nevim, co s Tim dela Tvuj postovni klient nebo
        > > prohlizec a kde si Czechlist stahujes nebo ctes, ale u te adresy,
        > > kterou pouzivam, mam vyplneno oficialni jmeno jako Matej Klimes a kdyz
        > > se moje zprava stahne pres Czechlist, tak v kolonce FROM je proste
        > > Matej Klimes, nemusis se ani divat na mail... proto mi iniciala M
        > > pripada dostatecna, divne, ze u Tebe to vidis jako No author a No
        > > address, s tim jsem nepocital
        > >
        > > M
        > > ------ Original Message ------
        > > From: "Petr" padamek@... <mailto:padamek%40chello.cz> >
        > > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: 1.1.2013 12:42:23
        > > Subject: [Czechlist] M for Matej?
        > > > Mateji, kdyz vidim "No author", "No address" a text "Seconded M".,
        > > >vubec nevim, kdo to poslal, respektive hadam, jestli je to Melvyn nebo
        > > >Ty, a teprve pomoci "matejklimes" rozlustim, ze jsi to Ty. Doporucuji
        > > >proto, abys "M" nechal Melvynovi a nadale byl "Matej".
        > > >Jinak vsechno nejlepsi do noveho roku.
        > > >Zdravi Petr Adamek
        > > >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > , "Matej Klimes" wrote:
        > > >>
        > > >> ... seconded
        > > >>
        > > >> M
        > > >
        > > >_.___
        > >
        > >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJwbDRjajBzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzMyODk2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNDM1ODgEbXNnSWQDNTA0NDIEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxMzU3MjI4NjQx?act=reply
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJwbDRjajBzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzMyODk2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNDM1ODgEbXNnSWQDNTA0NDIEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxMzU3MjI4NjQx?act=reply&messageNum=50442>
        > &messageNum=50442>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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