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Re: Jazykova poradna, was: Long adjectival phrases

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  • Petr
    Ale ano, telefonicka poradna funguje. P.A.
    Message 1 of 2 , Dec 28, 2012
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      Ale ano, telefonicka poradna funguje. P.A.

      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Markéta Vilhelmová <marketa.jirickova@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dobry den,
      > to uz jako nefunguje ani casove omezena telefonicka poradna? Vim, ze loni
      > prestali zdarma odpovidat na pisemne dotazy. Vysvetlovali to casovou
      > narocnosti a poctem dotazu, nadale vsak byla k dispozici jedna telefonni
      > linka, kam se dalo volat ve vsedni den, tusim od 11 do 13. hodiny, a
      > poradili bez poplatku. Byli velmi ochotni, jednou kvuli me prohledali
      > nekolik slovniku.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Marketa
      >
      >
      > --
      > Marketa Vilhelmova
      > Domasov u Stbk. 46
      > CZ-78501 Sternberk
      > Czech Republic
      > Comp. ID: 73360309
      > EU VAT: CZ7555252870
      > tel: +420 608 614 059
      > e-mail: marketa.jirickova@...
      > skype: jirickovapeggy
      >
      >
      > ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
      > Od: Petr <padamek@...>
      > Datum: 28. 12. 2012
      > Předmět: [Czechlist] Jazykova poradna, was: Long adjectival phrases
      >
      > "
      >  
      >
      >
      >
      > Technicka poznamka: UJC se rozhodl, ze tu neni pro lidi a neni placen z
      > nasich dani, takze uz poradna nedava rady zadarmo. Za kazdy dotaz je treba
      > zaplatit.
      > Petr Adamek
      >
      > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com(mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com),
      > "Pilucha, Jiri" <jiri.pilucha@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Melvyn,
      > >
      > > Some time ago you wrote here (in response to my question "What exactly
      > would be wrong with xxx") : "Not much point dwelling on why exactly xxx is
      > just plain wrong". I was rather perplexed at such a harsh response, but I
      > said to myself: "Okay, he's the native speaker so why don't I shut up, he
      > must be right, simple as that, case closed."
      > >
      > > Today I am no less perplexed about you as a non-native speaker of Czech
      > giving me a seminar about long adjectival phrases in Czech (and by the way,
      > what "teachers" are you talking about? High school? Please give me a break.
      > And how many did you ask? Two?) ....but instead of telling you "Not much
      > point dwelling on why you are wrong", here's what I suggest.
      > >
      > > Send a written query to Jazykova poradna UJC and/or Ustav bohemistickych
      > studii University Karlovy and ask them which of the following is decent
      > Czech.
      > >
      > > (a) Snaha, aby se na krest'anskou viru nove obraceni prosti lide naucili
      > pozadovanym modlitbam latinsky
      > > (b) Snaha, aby se prosti lide nove obraceni na krest'anskou viru naucili
      > pozadovanym modlitbam latinsky
      > >
      > > If they say the right choice is (a), I'll buy you a bottle of your
      > favorite drink (well, up to a reasonable limit...)
      > >
      > > Best regards
      > >
      > > Jiri
      > >
      > > P.S. Are you serious in putting forward a quote from an author of
      > experimental prose highly idiosyncratic in his innovating usage of language
      > (Topol) as being relevant in an argument concerning standardized grammar?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com(mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com)<
      > mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com(mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com)>
      > [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com(mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com)] On
      > Behalf Of melvyn.geo
      > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:02 PM
      > > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com(mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com)<mailto:
      > Czechlist@yahoogroups.com(mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com)>
      > > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Long adjectival phrases revisited plus season's
      > greetings
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Sarka wrote:
      > > Ja si nemyslim, ze neco takoveho by bylo prekladem z nemciny. Je to spise
      > snaha nejakeho historika nacpat do jedne vety co nejvice informaci.
      > Historici a kunshistorici to casto delaji.
      > >
      > > Take je to moje zkusenost a mam dojem, ze takove struktury jsou priznacne
      > mj pro akademicky styl. Anebo kecam?
      > >
      > > Jiri wrote:
      > > The point is that in Czech you don't put a long adjectival phrase IN FRONT
      > of the noun.
      > >
      > > Oh yes you do. You yourself go on to admit that this happens in practice.
      > And if it happens under the influence of German then surely that does not _
      > necessarily_ make it any less Czech, because Czech has ALWAYS been under the
      > influence of German, as Pavel Eisner points out in detail in Chram i tvrz.
      > Knedlik - knoedl etc.
      > >
      > > >as done CORRECTLY in the second of your examples
      > >
      > > Example 1] ... na krest'anskou viru nove obraceni prosti lide
      > >
      > > Example 2] ...Mytim cerena, pohybujici se bublinkova pena
      > >
      > > Both examples have long adjectival strings (AKA "extended adjectival
      > constructions", "extended modifiers" and "pre-noun inserts" or erweiterte
      > Adjektive*) before the noun.
      > >
      > > Asking around, I find that you are making distinctions here that go way
      > above the heads of experienced Czech language teachers. One Czech teacher
      > colleague comments: "In my opinion, the sentence** is perfectly Czech, it is
      > just more literary." **[1]
      > >
      > > >But of course if you repeat a mistake frequently enough it may become
      > codified as accepted usage.
      > >
      > > To go off on a bit of a tangent, I used to be told off by my old
      > literature tutor at SSEES for using fused participles, which used to be
      > considered "grammatically indefensible" (by Fowler, for example, although
      > the great Jespersen defended them). Fast forward a few decades and I now
      > actually teach fused participles, because they crop up as standard in my
      > TEFL textbook texts.
      > > http://www.answers.com/topic/fused-participles
      > (http://www.answers.com/topic/fused-participles)
      > >
      > > >N�kdy se ale stane, ze se chyba objevuje tak casto, ze se nakonec jeji
      > uzivani uznava.
      > >
      > > Not true. Take split infinitives as another example in English. The old
      > idea that they were incorrect is surely now itself considered incorrect.
      > >
      > > And let's not get into Czech spelling reforms over the years. :-)
      > >
      > > Anyway, it is getting round to that time of year again, so let me be the
      > first to wish all Czechlisters a merry-but-do-try-to-exercise-a-little-
      > moderation-with-all-those-slepovane-hvezdicky-also-known-as-Linz-cookies
      > Christmas.
      > >
      > > Have a cool Yule: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzKWHXlroBY
      > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzKWHXlroBY)
      > >
      > > BR
      > >
      > > M
      > > *http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005051.html
      > (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005051.html)
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > "
      >
      > =
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
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