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RE: [Czechlist] Re: Long adjectival phrases revisited plus season's greetings

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  • Pilucha, Jiri
    Melvyn, Some time ago you wrote here (in response to my question What exactly would be wrong with xxx ) : Not much point dwelling on why exactly xxx is
    Message 1 of 32 , Dec 27, 2012
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      Melvyn,

      Some time ago you wrote here (in response to my question "What exactly would be wrong with xxx") : "Not much point dwelling on why exactly xxx is just plain wrong". I was rather perplexed at such a harsh response, but I said to myself: "Okay, he's the native speaker so why don't I shut up, he must be right, simple as that, case closed."

      Today I am no less perplexed about you as a non-native speaker of Czech giving me a seminar about long adjectival phrases in Czech (and by the way, what "teachers" are you talking about? High school? Please give me a break. And how many did you ask? Two?) ....but instead of telling you "Not much point dwelling on why you are wrong", here's what I suggest.

      Send a written query to Jazykova poradna UJC and/or Ustav bohemistickych studii University Karlovy and ask them which of the following is decent Czech.

      (a) Snaha, aby se na krest'anskou viru nove obraceni prosti lide naucili pozadovanym modlitbam latinsky
      (b) Snaha, aby se prosti lide nove obraceni na krest'anskou viru naucili pozadovanym modlitbam latinsky

      If they say the right choice is (a), I'll buy you a bottle of your favorite drink (well, up to a reasonable limit...)

      Best regards

      Jiri

      P.S. Are you serious in putting forward a quote from an author of experimental prose highly idiosyncratic in his innovating usage of language (Topol) as being relevant in an argument concerning standardized grammar?





      From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of melvyn.geo
      Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:02 PM
      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Long adjectival phrases revisited plus season's greetings



      Sarka wrote:
      Ja si nemyslim, ze neco takoveho by bylo prekladem z nemciny. Je to spise snaha nejakeho historika nacpat do jedne vety co nejvice informaci. Historici a kunshistorici to casto delaji.

      Take je to moje zkusenost a mam dojem, ze takove struktury jsou priznacne mj pro akademicky styl. Anebo kecam?

      Jiri wrote:
      The point is that in Czech you don't put a long adjectival phrase IN FRONT of the noun.

      Oh yes you do. You yourself go on to admit that this happens in practice. And if it happens under the influence of German then surely that does not _necessarily_ make it any less Czech, because Czech has ALWAYS been under the influence of German, as Pavel Eisner points out in detail in Chram i tvrz. Knedlik - knoedl etc.

      >as done CORRECTLY in the second of your examples

      Example 1] ... na krest'anskou viru nove obraceni prosti lide

      Example 2] ...Mytim cerena, pohybujici se bublinkova pena

      Both examples have long adjectival strings (AKA "extended adjectival constructions", "extended modifiers" and "pre-noun inserts" or erweiterte Adjektive*) before the noun.

      Asking around, I find that you are making distinctions here that go way above the heads of experienced Czech language teachers. One Czech teacher colleague comments: "In my opinion, the sentence** is perfectly Czech, it is just more literary." **[1]

      >But of course if you repeat a mistake frequently enough it may become codified as accepted usage.

      To go off on a bit of a tangent, I used to be told off by my old literature tutor at SSEES for using fused participles, which used to be considered "grammatically indefensible" (by Fowler, for example, although the great Jespersen defended them). Fast forward a few decades and I now actually teach fused participles, because they crop up as standard in my TEFL textbook texts.
      http://www.answers.com/topic/fused-participles

      >Nìkdy se ale stane, ze se chyba objevuje tak casto, ze se nakonec jeji uzivani uznava.

      Not true. Take split infinitives as another example in English. The old idea that they were incorrect is surely now itself considered incorrect.

      And let's not get into Czech spelling reforms over the years. :-)

      Anyway, it is getting round to that time of year again, so let me be the first to wish all Czechlisters a merry-but-do-try-to-exercise-a-little-moderation-with-all-those-slepovane-hvezdicky-also-known-as-Linz-cookies Christmas.

      Have a cool Yule: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzKWHXlroBY

      BR

      M
      *http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005051.html



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Martin Janda
      Ach jo, no tak ja to zkusim. Ale nezarucuju, ze mi to dlouho vydrzi :-) Porad jeste Martin
      Message 32 of 32 , Jan 4, 2013
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        Ach jo, no tak ja to zkusim. Ale nezarucuju, ze mi to dlouho vydrzi :-)

        Porad jeste Martin

        Dne 3.1.2013 17:51, Sarka Rubkova napsal(a):
        >
        > Pravda je, že někdy (tedy dost často) odesilatele jako osobu ve
        > zprávách nemám a ani předmět. Jen nechápu, když už tenhle problém
        > existuje, jakože ano, že je pro vás tak obrovský problém psát celé
        > jméno. Je to jen o 4 nebo 5 písmen víc. Když je to tak moc, můžete
        > psát iniciály celého jména.
        >
        > Sarka
        >
        > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
        > [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Martin Janda
        > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 5:38 PM
        > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] M for Matej?
        >
        > Hmmm, fakt je, ze i ja u nekterych lidi (treba Jamie) mel jako
        > odesilatel uvedeno Zdenka Taborskeho (ktery myslim funguje jako
        > webmaster). Asi mesic jsem zasl, jak skvele Zdenek umi anglicky, a pak
        > mi to doslo.Musel jsem si tu adresu prejmenovat, aby mne to nematlo.
        > Ale vzhledem k tomu, ze tohle je prvni reklamace na nase spolecne
        > inicialy po nekolika letech, snad to nebudetak palcivy problem....?
        >
        > Navic, Melvyn vetsinou reaguje na uplne jine prispevky, nez ja s
        > Matejem, takze jeho odliseni neni tak tezke...?
        >
        > Teoreticky bychom mohli zavest dvojpismenne zkratky, aleMa a Mt mame
        > spolecne, a Mj jako Matej se zas bude plest s Martin Janda.
        >
        > Druhy M
        > jako Martin
        >
        > Dne 3.1.2013 16:57, Matej Klimes napsal(a):
        > >
        > > Mimochodem Petre, nevim, co s Tim dela Tvuj postovni klient nebo
        > > prohlizec a kde si Czechlist stahujes nebo ctes, ale u te adresy,
        > > kterou pouzivam, mam vyplneno oficialni jmeno jako Matej Klimes a kdyz
        > > se moje zprava stahne pres Czechlist, tak v kolonce FROM je proste
        > > Matej Klimes, nemusis se ani divat na mail... proto mi iniciala M
        > > pripada dostatecna, divne, ze u Tebe to vidis jako No author a No
        > > address, s tim jsem nepocital
        > >
        > > M
        > > ------ Original Message ------
        > > From: "Petr" padamek@... <mailto:padamek%40chello.cz> >
        > > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: 1.1.2013 12:42:23
        > > Subject: [Czechlist] M for Matej?
        > > > Mateji, kdyz vidim "No author", "No address" a text "Seconded M".,
        > > >vubec nevim, kdo to poslal, respektive hadam, jestli je to Melvyn nebo
        > > >Ty, a teprve pomoci "matejklimes" rozlustim, ze jsi to Ty. Doporucuji
        > > >proto, abys "M" nechal Melvynovi a nadale byl "Matej".
        > > >Jinak vsechno nejlepsi do noveho roku.
        > > >Zdravi Petr Adamek
        > > >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > , "Matej Klimes" wrote:
        > > >>
        > > >> ... seconded
        > > >>
        > > >> M
        > > >
        > > >_.___
        > >
        > >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJwbDRjajBzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzMyODk2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNDM1ODgEbXNnSWQDNTA0NDIEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxMzU3MjI4NjQx?act=reply
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJwbDRjajBzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzMyODk2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNDM1ODgEbXNnSWQDNTA0NDIEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxMzU3MjI4NjQx?act=reply&messageNum=50442>
        > &messageNum=50442>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
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