Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [Czechlist] had been born equal without having to become so

Expand Messages
  • Romana
    He has been born equal - when he was born, he was just like all other babies. .without having to become so - he did not have to stay equal and be like all
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 14, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      He has been born equal - when he was born, he was just like all other
      babies.

      .without having to become so - he did not have to stay equal and be like all
      other people in his life after: He had the freedom to become a very special,
      unusual person.



      Regards,

      Romana





      From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of Pilucha, Jiri
      Sent: Saturday, 15 December 2012 6:51 AM
      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Czechlist] had been born equal without having to become so





      Dear colleagues,

      The following is from an essay on Alexis de Tocqueville's "Democracy in
      America".

      In his views on democracy and equality he was not very clear about what
      democracy meant. He defined democracy in some places as equality of
      conditions, by which he meant that Americans were free-born-they had no
      aristocratic ancestors and had been born equal without having to become so.

      I am not entirely sure if I understand correctly and precisely the part that
      says "...had been born equal without having to become so", more specifically
      "without having to become so". Does it mean they were born equal as opposed
      to not being born equal and only subsequently having to struggle to attain
      equality? (My confusion is that *become* sounds too passive to me to be
      interpreted in the sense of having to fight for something. The way it is
      worded would suggest to me they were born [potentially] equal but not
      obligated to actually exercise the option... but obviously that would be
      total nonsense). Am I overanalyzing it, or is my sense of the language
      failing me, or is, indeed, *become* not the best of words to use here?

      Thank you very much

      Jiri

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Pilucha, Jiri
      Thanks for this! Obviously, it’s very much to the point From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hgeige@aol.com Sent:
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 14, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Thanks for this! Obviously, it’s very much to the point

        From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hgeige@...
        Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 10:47 PM
        To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Czechlist] Re: had been born equal without having to become so



        Hello,

        here is a quote from a beautiful PDF, unfortunately I have difficulties
        copying the link, however, if you put any longer sentence of the following
        into the Google, you will get it.

        If not, I can e-mail the PDF to you.


        83Kornhauser, 87-88. It is worth noting that Kornhauser misquotes
        Tocqueville through Hartz. Hartz’s well- known citation error - occurring at the
        outset of his book, The Liberal Tradition in America - that the American is “
        born free without having to become so,” was repeated by Kornhauser on page
        136. It ought to have read - “they were born equal instead of becoming so.”
        See Democracy II, 101.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Hannah Geiger
        Great. Thanks Hanka Geiger On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 7:23 PM, Pilucha, Jiri
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 14, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Great. Thanks

          Hanka Geiger

          On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 7:23 PM, "Pilucha, Jiri" <jiri.pilucha@...
          > wrote:

          > Thanks for this! Obviously, it's very much to the point
          >
          > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of hgeige@...
          > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 10:47 PM
          > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: had been born equal without having to become so
          >
          >
          >
          > Hello,
          >
          > here is a quote from a beautiful PDF, unfortunately I have difficulties
          > copying the link, however, if you put any longer sentence of the following
          > into the Google, you will get it.
          >
          > If not, I can e-mail the PDF to you.
          >
          >
          > 83Kornhauser, 87-88. It is worth noting that Kornhauser misquotes
          > Tocqueville through Hartz. Hartz's well- known citation error - occurring
          > at the
          > outset of his book, The Liberal Tradition in America - that the American
          > is "
          > born free without having to become so," was repeated by Kornhauser on page
          > 136. It ought to have read - "they were born equal instead of becoming so."
          > See Democracy II, 101.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > _______________________________________________
          > Czechlist mailing list
          > Czechlist@...
          > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
          >
          _______________________________________________
          Czechlist mailing list
          Czechlist@...
          http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
        • Pilucha, Jiri
          Okay... in other words, more or less, the second alternative that I suggested ( they were born [potentially] equal but not obligated to actually exercise the
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 15, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Okay... in other words, more or less, the second alternative that I suggested ("they were born [potentially] equal but not
            obligated to actually exercise the option") which I thought did not make sense but the way you put it it does
            Thanks!
            Jiri

            From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Romana
            Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 9:55 PM
            To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [Czechlist] had been born equal without having to become so



            He has been born equal - when he was born, he was just like all other
            babies.

            .without having to become so - he did not have to stay equal and be like all
            other people in his life after: He had the freedom to become a very special,
            unusual person.

            Regards,

            Romana

            From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
            Of Pilucha, Jiri
            Sent: Saturday, 15 December 2012 6:51 AM
            To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: [Czechlist] had been born equal without having to become so

            Dear colleagues,

            The following is from an essay on Alexis de Tocqueville's "Democracy in
            America".

            In his views on democracy and equality he was not very clear about what
            democracy meant. He defined democracy in some places as equality of
            conditions, by which he meant that Americans were free-born-they had no
            aristocratic ancestors and had been born equal without having to become so.

            I am not entirely sure if I understand correctly and precisely the part that
            says "...had been born equal without having to become so", more specifically
            "without having to become so". Does it mean they were born equal as opposed
            to not being born equal and only subsequently having to struggle to attain
            equality? (My confusion is that *become* sounds too passive to me to be
            interpreted in the sense of having to fight for something. The way it is
            worded would suggest to me they were born [potentially] equal but not
            obligated to actually exercise the option... but obviously that would be
            total nonsense). Am I overanalyzing it, or is my sense of the language
            failing me, or is, indeed, *become* not the best of words to use here?

            Thank you very much

            Jiri

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • James Kirchner
            In the introduction to Democracy in America, Tocqueville states that the reason he took the trip to America to study democracy was that in Europe there was a
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 15, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              In the introduction to Democracy in America, Tocqueville states that the reason he took the trip to America to study democracy was that in Europe there was a trend toward people of non-noble birth becoming part of high society without having been born into the aristocratic classes. They rose through education and by other means to the point where nobles had no choice but to treat them as equals. I assume he's thinking of that when he mentions people being "born equal instead of becoming so".

              Jamie

              On Dec 14, 2012, at 4:47 PM, hgeige@... wrote:

              > Hello,
              >
              > here is a quote from a beautiful PDF, unfortunately I have difficulties
              > copying the link, however, if you put any longer sentence of the following
              > into the Google, you will get it.
              >
              > If not, I can e-mail the PDF to you.
              >
              >
              > 83Kornhauser, 87-88. It is worth noting that Kornhauser misquotes
              > Tocqueville through Hartz. Hartz's well- known citation error - occurring at the
              > outset of his book, The Liberal Tradition in America - that the American is "
              > born free without having to become so," was repeated by Kornhauser on page
              > 136. It ought to have read - "they were born equal instead of becoming so."
              > See Democracy II, 101.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > _______________________________________________
              > Czechlist mailing list
              > Czechlist@...
              > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


              _______________________________________________
              Czechlist mailing list
              Czechlist@...
              http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
            • Pilucha, Jiri
              Thank s a lot, Jamie, that clarifies it yet further Jiri From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Kirchner Sent:
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 15, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Thank's a lot, Jamie, that clarifies it yet further
                Jiri

                From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Kirchner
                Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2012 6:10 PM
                To: czechlist@...
                Subject: Re: [Czechlist] had been born equal without having to become so



                In the introduction to Democracy in America, Tocqueville states that the reason he took the trip to America to study democracy was that in Europe there was a trend toward people of non-noble birth becoming part of high society without having been born into the aristocratic classes. They rose through education and by other means to the point where nobles had no choice but to treat them as equals. I assume he's thinking of that when he mentions people being "born equal instead of becoming so".

                Jamie

                On Dec 14, 2012, at 4:47 PM, hgeige@...<mailto:hgeige%40aol.com> wrote:

                > Hello,
                >
                > here is a quote from a beautiful PDF, unfortunately I have difficulties
                > copying the link, however, if you put any longer sentence of the following
                > into the Google, you will get it.
                >
                > If not, I can e-mail the PDF to you.
                >
                >
                > 83Kornhauser, 87-88. It is worth noting that Kornhauser misquotes
                > Tocqueville through Hartz. Hartz's well- known citation error - occurring at the
                > outset of his book, The Liberal Tradition in America - that the American is "
                > born free without having to become so," was repeated by Kornhauser on page
                > 136. It ought to have read - "they were born equal instead of becoming so."
                > See Democracy II, 101.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > _______________________________________________
                > Czechlist mailing list
                > Czechlist@...<mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
                > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist

                _______________________________________________
                Czechlist mailing list
                Czechlist@...<mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
                http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.