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RE: [Czechlist] had been born equal without having to become so

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  • Romana
    He has been born equal - when he was born, he was just like all other babies. .without having to become so - he did not have to stay equal and be like all
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 14, 2012
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      He has been born equal - when he was born, he was just like all other
      babies.

      .without having to become so - he did not have to stay equal and be like all
      other people in his life after: He had the freedom to become a very special,
      unusual person.



      Regards,

      Romana





      From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of Pilucha, Jiri
      Sent: Saturday, 15 December 2012 6:51 AM
      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Czechlist] had been born equal without having to become so





      Dear colleagues,

      The following is from an essay on Alexis de Tocqueville's "Democracy in
      America".

      In his views on democracy and equality he was not very clear about what
      democracy meant. He defined democracy in some places as equality of
      conditions, by which he meant that Americans were free-born-they had no
      aristocratic ancestors and had been born equal without having to become so.

      I am not entirely sure if I understand correctly and precisely the part that
      says "...had been born equal without having to become so", more specifically
      "without having to become so". Does it mean they were born equal as opposed
      to not being born equal and only subsequently having to struggle to attain
      equality? (My confusion is that *become* sounds too passive to me to be
      interpreted in the sense of having to fight for something. The way it is
      worded would suggest to me they were born [potentially] equal but not
      obligated to actually exercise the option... but obviously that would be
      total nonsense). Am I overanalyzing it, or is my sense of the language
      failing me, or is, indeed, *become* not the best of words to use here?

      Thank you very much

      Jiri

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • hgeige@aol.com
      Hello, here is a quote from a beautiful PDF, unfortunately I have difficulties copying the link, however, if you put any longer sentence of the following into
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 14, 2012
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        Hello,

        here is a quote from a beautiful PDF, unfortunately I have difficulties
        copying the link, however, if you put any longer sentence of the following
        into the Google, you will get it.

        If not, I can e-mail the PDF to you.


        83Kornhauser, 87-88. It is worth noting that Kornhauser misquotes
        Tocqueville through Hartz. Hartz’s well- known citation error - occurring at the
        outset of his book, The Liberal Tradition in America - that the American is “
        born free without having to become so,” was repeated by Kornhauser on page
        136. It ought to have read - “they were born equal instead of becoming so.”
        See Democracy II, 101.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Pilucha, Jiri
        Thanks for this! Obviously, it’s very much to the point From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hgeige@aol.com Sent:
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 14, 2012
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          Thanks for this! Obviously, it’s very much to the point

          From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hgeige@...
          Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 10:47 PM
          To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Czechlist] Re: had been born equal without having to become so



          Hello,

          here is a quote from a beautiful PDF, unfortunately I have difficulties
          copying the link, however, if you put any longer sentence of the following
          into the Google, you will get it.

          If not, I can e-mail the PDF to you.


          83Kornhauser, 87-88. It is worth noting that Kornhauser misquotes
          Tocqueville through Hartz. Hartz’s well- known citation error - occurring at the
          outset of his book, The Liberal Tradition in America - that the American is “
          born free without having to become so,” was repeated by Kornhauser on page
          136. It ought to have read - “they were born equal instead of becoming so.”
          See Democracy II, 101.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Hannah Geiger
          Great. Thanks Hanka Geiger On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 7:23 PM, Pilucha, Jiri
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 14, 2012
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            Great. Thanks

            Hanka Geiger

            On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 7:23 PM, "Pilucha, Jiri" <jiri.pilucha@...
            > wrote:

            > Thanks for this! Obviously, it's very much to the point
            >
            > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of hgeige@...
            > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 10:47 PM
            > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: had been born equal without having to become so
            >
            >
            >
            > Hello,
            >
            > here is a quote from a beautiful PDF, unfortunately I have difficulties
            > copying the link, however, if you put any longer sentence of the following
            > into the Google, you will get it.
            >
            > If not, I can e-mail the PDF to you.
            >
            >
            > 83Kornhauser, 87-88. It is worth noting that Kornhauser misquotes
            > Tocqueville through Hartz. Hartz's well- known citation error - occurring
            > at the
            > outset of his book, The Liberal Tradition in America - that the American
            > is "
            > born free without having to become so," was repeated by Kornhauser on page
            > 136. It ought to have read - "they were born equal instead of becoming so."
            > See Democracy II, 101.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > _______________________________________________
            > Czechlist mailing list
            > Czechlist@...
            > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
            >
            _______________________________________________
            Czechlist mailing list
            Czechlist@...
            http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
          • Pilucha, Jiri
            Okay... in other words, more or less, the second alternative that I suggested ( they were born [potentially] equal but not obligated to actually exercise the
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 15, 2012
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              Okay... in other words, more or less, the second alternative that I suggested ("they were born [potentially] equal but not
              obligated to actually exercise the option") which I thought did not make sense but the way you put it it does
              Thanks!
              Jiri

              From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Romana
              Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 9:55 PM
              To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [Czechlist] had been born equal without having to become so



              He has been born equal - when he was born, he was just like all other
              babies.

              .without having to become so - he did not have to stay equal and be like all
              other people in his life after: He had the freedom to become a very special,
              unusual person.

              Regards,

              Romana

              From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
              Of Pilucha, Jiri
              Sent: Saturday, 15 December 2012 6:51 AM
              To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [Czechlist] had been born equal without having to become so

              Dear colleagues,

              The following is from an essay on Alexis de Tocqueville's "Democracy in
              America".

              In his views on democracy and equality he was not very clear about what
              democracy meant. He defined democracy in some places as equality of
              conditions, by which he meant that Americans were free-born-they had no
              aristocratic ancestors and had been born equal without having to become so.

              I am not entirely sure if I understand correctly and precisely the part that
              says "...had been born equal without having to become so", more specifically
              "without having to become so". Does it mean they were born equal as opposed
              to not being born equal and only subsequently having to struggle to attain
              equality? (My confusion is that *become* sounds too passive to me to be
              interpreted in the sense of having to fight for something. The way it is
              worded would suggest to me they were born [potentially] equal but not
              obligated to actually exercise the option... but obviously that would be
              total nonsense). Am I overanalyzing it, or is my sense of the language
              failing me, or is, indeed, *become* not the best of words to use here?

              Thank you very much

              Jiri

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • James Kirchner
              In the introduction to Democracy in America, Tocqueville states that the reason he took the trip to America to study democracy was that in Europe there was a
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 15, 2012
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                In the introduction to Democracy in America, Tocqueville states that the reason he took the trip to America to study democracy was that in Europe there was a trend toward people of non-noble birth becoming part of high society without having been born into the aristocratic classes. They rose through education and by other means to the point where nobles had no choice but to treat them as equals. I assume he's thinking of that when he mentions people being "born equal instead of becoming so".

                Jamie

                On Dec 14, 2012, at 4:47 PM, hgeige@... wrote:

                > Hello,
                >
                > here is a quote from a beautiful PDF, unfortunately I have difficulties
                > copying the link, however, if you put any longer sentence of the following
                > into the Google, you will get it.
                >
                > If not, I can e-mail the PDF to you.
                >
                >
                > 83Kornhauser, 87-88. It is worth noting that Kornhauser misquotes
                > Tocqueville through Hartz. Hartz's well- known citation error - occurring at the
                > outset of his book, The Liberal Tradition in America - that the American is "
                > born free without having to become so," was repeated by Kornhauser on page
                > 136. It ought to have read - "they were born equal instead of becoming so."
                > See Democracy II, 101.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > _______________________________________________
                > Czechlist mailing list
                > Czechlist@...
                > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


                _______________________________________________
                Czechlist mailing list
                Czechlist@...
                http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
              • Pilucha, Jiri
                Thank s a lot, Jamie, that clarifies it yet further Jiri From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Kirchner Sent:
                Message 7 of 8 , Dec 15, 2012
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                  Thank's a lot, Jamie, that clarifies it yet further
                  Jiri

                  From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Kirchner
                  Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2012 6:10 PM
                  To: czechlist@...
                  Subject: Re: [Czechlist] had been born equal without having to become so



                  In the introduction to Democracy in America, Tocqueville states that the reason he took the trip to America to study democracy was that in Europe there was a trend toward people of non-noble birth becoming part of high society without having been born into the aristocratic classes. They rose through education and by other means to the point where nobles had no choice but to treat them as equals. I assume he's thinking of that when he mentions people being "born equal instead of becoming so".

                  Jamie

                  On Dec 14, 2012, at 4:47 PM, hgeige@...<mailto:hgeige%40aol.com> wrote:

                  > Hello,
                  >
                  > here is a quote from a beautiful PDF, unfortunately I have difficulties
                  > copying the link, however, if you put any longer sentence of the following
                  > into the Google, you will get it.
                  >
                  > If not, I can e-mail the PDF to you.
                  >
                  >
                  > 83Kornhauser, 87-88. It is worth noting that Kornhauser misquotes
                  > Tocqueville through Hartz. Hartz's well- known citation error - occurring at the
                  > outset of his book, The Liberal Tradition in America - that the American is "
                  > born free without having to become so," was repeated by Kornhauser on page
                  > 136. It ought to have read - "they were born equal instead of becoming so."
                  > See Democracy II, 101.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > _______________________________________________
                  > Czechlist mailing list
                  > Czechlist@...<mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
                  > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist

                  _______________________________________________
                  Czechlist mailing list
                  Czechlist@...<mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
                  http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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