Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

had been born equal without having to become so

Expand Messages
  • Pilucha, Jiri
    Dear colleagues, The following is from an essay on Alexis de Tocqueville s Democracy in America . In his views on democracy and equality he was not very
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 14, 2012
      Dear colleagues,

      The following is from an essay on Alexis de Tocqueville's "Democracy in America".

      In his views on democracy and equality he was not very clear about what democracy meant. He defined democracy in some places as equality of conditions, by which he meant that Americans were free-born-they had no aristocratic ancestors and had been born equal without having to become so.

      I am not entirely sure if I understand correctly and precisely the part that says "...had been born equal without having to become so", more specifically "without having to become so". Does it mean they were born equal as opposed to not being born equal and only subsequently having to struggle to attain equality? (My confusion is that *become* sounds too passive to me to be interpreted in the sense of having to fight for something. The way it is worded would suggest to me they were born [potentially] equal but not obligated to actually exercise the option... but obviously that would be total nonsense). Am I overanalyzing it, or is my sense of the language failing me, or is, indeed, *become* not the best of words to use here?

      Thank you very much

      Jiri




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Romana
      He has been born equal - when he was born, he was just like all other babies. .without having to become so - he did not have to stay equal and be like all
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 14, 2012
        He has been born equal - when he was born, he was just like all other
        babies.

        .without having to become so - he did not have to stay equal and be like all
        other people in his life after: He had the freedom to become a very special,
        unusual person.



        Regards,

        Romana





        From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of Pilucha, Jiri
        Sent: Saturday, 15 December 2012 6:51 AM
        To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Czechlist] had been born equal without having to become so





        Dear colleagues,

        The following is from an essay on Alexis de Tocqueville's "Democracy in
        America".

        In his views on democracy and equality he was not very clear about what
        democracy meant. He defined democracy in some places as equality of
        conditions, by which he meant that Americans were free-born-they had no
        aristocratic ancestors and had been born equal without having to become so.

        I am not entirely sure if I understand correctly and precisely the part that
        says "...had been born equal without having to become so", more specifically
        "without having to become so". Does it mean they were born equal as opposed
        to not being born equal and only subsequently having to struggle to attain
        equality? (My confusion is that *become* sounds too passive to me to be
        interpreted in the sense of having to fight for something. The way it is
        worded would suggest to me they were born [potentially] equal but not
        obligated to actually exercise the option... but obviously that would be
        total nonsense). Am I overanalyzing it, or is my sense of the language
        failing me, or is, indeed, *become* not the best of words to use here?

        Thank you very much

        Jiri

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • hgeige@aol.com
        Hello, here is a quote from a beautiful PDF, unfortunately I have difficulties copying the link, however, if you put any longer sentence of the following into
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 14, 2012
          Hello,

          here is a quote from a beautiful PDF, unfortunately I have difficulties
          copying the link, however, if you put any longer sentence of the following
          into the Google, you will get it.

          If not, I can e-mail the PDF to you.


          83Kornhauser, 87-88. It is worth noting that Kornhauser misquotes
          Tocqueville through Hartz. Hartz’s well- known citation error - occurring at the
          outset of his book, The Liberal Tradition in America - that the American is “
          born free without having to become so,” was repeated by Kornhauser on page
          136. It ought to have read - “they were born equal instead of becoming so.”
          See Democracy II, 101.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Pilucha, Jiri
          Thanks for this! Obviously, it’s very much to the point From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hgeige@aol.com Sent:
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 14, 2012
            Thanks for this! Obviously, it’s very much to the point

            From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hgeige@...
            Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 10:47 PM
            To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Czechlist] Re: had been born equal without having to become so



            Hello,

            here is a quote from a beautiful PDF, unfortunately I have difficulties
            copying the link, however, if you put any longer sentence of the following
            into the Google, you will get it.

            If not, I can e-mail the PDF to you.


            83Kornhauser, 87-88. It is worth noting that Kornhauser misquotes
            Tocqueville through Hartz. Hartz’s well- known citation error - occurring at the
            outset of his book, The Liberal Tradition in America - that the American is “
            born free without having to become so,” was repeated by Kornhauser on page
            136. It ought to have read - “they were born equal instead of becoming so.”
            See Democracy II, 101.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Hannah Geiger
            Great. Thanks Hanka Geiger On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 7:23 PM, Pilucha, Jiri
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 14, 2012
              Great. Thanks

              Hanka Geiger

              On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 7:23 PM, "Pilucha, Jiri" <jiri.pilucha@...
              > wrote:

              > Thanks for this! Obviously, it's very much to the point
              >
              > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf Of hgeige@...
              > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 10:47 PM
              > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: had been born equal without having to become so
              >
              >
              >
              > Hello,
              >
              > here is a quote from a beautiful PDF, unfortunately I have difficulties
              > copying the link, however, if you put any longer sentence of the following
              > into the Google, you will get it.
              >
              > If not, I can e-mail the PDF to you.
              >
              >
              > 83Kornhauser, 87-88. It is worth noting that Kornhauser misquotes
              > Tocqueville through Hartz. Hartz's well- known citation error - occurring
              > at the
              > outset of his book, The Liberal Tradition in America - that the American
              > is "
              > born free without having to become so," was repeated by Kornhauser on page
              > 136. It ought to have read - "they were born equal instead of becoming so."
              > See Democracy II, 101.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > _______________________________________________
              > Czechlist mailing list
              > Czechlist@...
              > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
              >
              _______________________________________________
              Czechlist mailing list
              Czechlist@...
              http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
            • Pilucha, Jiri
              Okay... in other words, more or less, the second alternative that I suggested ( they were born [potentially] equal but not obligated to actually exercise the
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 15, 2012
                Okay... in other words, more or less, the second alternative that I suggested ("they were born [potentially] equal but not
                obligated to actually exercise the option") which I thought did not make sense but the way you put it it does
                Thanks!
                Jiri

                From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Romana
                Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 9:55 PM
                To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [Czechlist] had been born equal without having to become so



                He has been born equal - when he was born, he was just like all other
                babies.

                .without having to become so - he did not have to stay equal and be like all
                other people in his life after: He had the freedom to become a very special,
                unusual person.

                Regards,

                Romana

                From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
                Of Pilucha, Jiri
                Sent: Saturday, 15 December 2012 6:51 AM
                To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: [Czechlist] had been born equal without having to become so

                Dear colleagues,

                The following is from an essay on Alexis de Tocqueville's "Democracy in
                America".

                In his views on democracy and equality he was not very clear about what
                democracy meant. He defined democracy in some places as equality of
                conditions, by which he meant that Americans were free-born-they had no
                aristocratic ancestors and had been born equal without having to become so.

                I am not entirely sure if I understand correctly and precisely the part that
                says "...had been born equal without having to become so", more specifically
                "without having to become so". Does it mean they were born equal as opposed
                to not being born equal and only subsequently having to struggle to attain
                equality? (My confusion is that *become* sounds too passive to me to be
                interpreted in the sense of having to fight for something. The way it is
                worded would suggest to me they were born [potentially] equal but not
                obligated to actually exercise the option... but obviously that would be
                total nonsense). Am I overanalyzing it, or is my sense of the language
                failing me, or is, indeed, *become* not the best of words to use here?

                Thank you very much

                Jiri

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • James Kirchner
                In the introduction to Democracy in America, Tocqueville states that the reason he took the trip to America to study democracy was that in Europe there was a
                Message 7 of 8 , Dec 15, 2012
                  In the introduction to Democracy in America, Tocqueville states that the reason he took the trip to America to study democracy was that in Europe there was a trend toward people of non-noble birth becoming part of high society without having been born into the aristocratic classes. They rose through education and by other means to the point where nobles had no choice but to treat them as equals. I assume he's thinking of that when he mentions people being "born equal instead of becoming so".

                  Jamie

                  On Dec 14, 2012, at 4:47 PM, hgeige@... wrote:

                  > Hello,
                  >
                  > here is a quote from a beautiful PDF, unfortunately I have difficulties
                  > copying the link, however, if you put any longer sentence of the following
                  > into the Google, you will get it.
                  >
                  > If not, I can e-mail the PDF to you.
                  >
                  >
                  > 83Kornhauser, 87-88. It is worth noting that Kornhauser misquotes
                  > Tocqueville through Hartz. Hartz's well- known citation error - occurring at the
                  > outset of his book, The Liberal Tradition in America - that the American is "
                  > born free without having to become so," was repeated by Kornhauser on page
                  > 136. It ought to have read - "they were born equal instead of becoming so."
                  > See Democracy II, 101.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > _______________________________________________
                  > Czechlist mailing list
                  > Czechlist@...
                  > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


                  _______________________________________________
                  Czechlist mailing list
                  Czechlist@...
                  http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                • Pilucha, Jiri
                  Thank s a lot, Jamie, that clarifies it yet further Jiri From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Kirchner Sent:
                  Message 8 of 8 , Dec 15, 2012
                    Thank's a lot, Jamie, that clarifies it yet further
                    Jiri

                    From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Kirchner
                    Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2012 6:10 PM
                    To: czechlist@...
                    Subject: Re: [Czechlist] had been born equal without having to become so



                    In the introduction to Democracy in America, Tocqueville states that the reason he took the trip to America to study democracy was that in Europe there was a trend toward people of non-noble birth becoming part of high society without having been born into the aristocratic classes. They rose through education and by other means to the point where nobles had no choice but to treat them as equals. I assume he's thinking of that when he mentions people being "born equal instead of becoming so".

                    Jamie

                    On Dec 14, 2012, at 4:47 PM, hgeige@...<mailto:hgeige%40aol.com> wrote:

                    > Hello,
                    >
                    > here is a quote from a beautiful PDF, unfortunately I have difficulties
                    > copying the link, however, if you put any longer sentence of the following
                    > into the Google, you will get it.
                    >
                    > If not, I can e-mail the PDF to you.
                    >
                    >
                    > 83Kornhauser, 87-88. It is worth noting that Kornhauser misquotes
                    > Tocqueville through Hartz. Hartz's well- known citation error - occurring at the
                    > outset of his book, The Liberal Tradition in America - that the American is "
                    > born free without having to become so," was repeated by Kornhauser on page
                    > 136. It ought to have read - "they were born equal instead of becoming so."
                    > See Democracy II, 101.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > _______________________________________________
                    > Czechlist mailing list
                    > Czechlist@...<mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
                    > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist

                    _______________________________________________
                    Czechlist mailing list
                    Czechlist@...<mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
                    http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.