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Re: [Czechlist] "via"

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  • Libor Zajíček
    Hi, I don´t know the right answer, but I noticed via was extremely popular in Dutch English, pronounced feeah. The Dutch could have it from Bri´ish. But my
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 24, 2012
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      Hi,
      I don´t know the right answer, but I noticed "via" was extremely popular in
      Dutch English, pronounced feeah. The Dutch could have it from Bri´ish. But
      my guess is it is Euroenglish, slowly spreading from a western epicenter
      eastwards.

      Regards
      Libor

      2012/11/24 James Kirchner <czechlist@...>

      > **
      >
      >
      > In TM I get, I see the word "via" used irritatingly often in situations
      > that would require the instrumental case but don't involve routes.
      >
      > So, I can see someone going from one town to another via Highway 6.
      > (Etymologically, "via" means way or road, after all.)
      >
      > And I can see someone receiving a message via e-mail or via the post
      > office. I can see goods being transported via conveyor or via rail.
      >
      > However, I can't see someone performing his oral hygiene via a toothbrush
      > (made-up example), holes being bored via a drill, or a machine being lifted
      > via eye bolts. Sometimes I get texts where "7. pad" situations are almost
      > always done "via" something and not "by" something.
      >
      > I'm trying to figure out if these examples I don't like are British
      > English written by British speakers (and therefore to be tolerated) or if
      > they're "da Breetish Inklish" written by Czechs and Germans (and therefore
      > to be fixed).
      >
      > Any thoughts?
      >
      > Jamie
      >
      > _______________________________________________
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      > Czechlist@...
      > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >
      >



      --
      Czeskie Słowo Dnia <http://czesko.pl>
      preklady <http://navolnenoze.cz/prezentace/libor-zajicek/>
      Libor Zajíček <http://about.me>


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Melvyn
      ... Via sounds totally inappropriate to my British ears here. BR M.
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 25, 2012
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        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:

        > However, I can't see someone performing his oral hygiene via a toothbrush (made-up example), holes being bored via a drill, or a machine being lifted via eye bolts. Sometimes I get texts where "7. pad" situations are almost always done "via" something and not "by" something.
        >

        "Via" sounds totally inappropriate to my British ears here.

        BR

        M.
      • James Kirchner
        So, we appear to agree. Thank you. Jamie ... _______________________________________________ Czechlist mailing list Czechlist@czechlist.org
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 25, 2012
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          So, we appear to agree. Thank you.

          Jamie

          On Nov 25, 2012, at 5:43 AM, Melvyn wrote:

          >
          >
          > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
          >
          >> However, I can't see someone performing his oral hygiene via a toothbrush (made-up example), holes being bored via a drill, or a machine being lifted via eye bolts. Sometimes I get texts where "7. pad" situations are almost always done "via" something and not "by" something.
          >>
          >
          > "Via" sounds totally inappropriate to my British ears here.
          >
          > BR
          >
          > M.
          >
          > _______________________________________________
          > Czechlist mailing list
          > Czechlist@...
          > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


          _______________________________________________
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        • Melvyn
          ... Yes, though I get the impression some native speakers are indeed quite happy with this by means of usage. Merriam Webster lists this sentence as an
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 25, 2012
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            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
            >
            > So, we appear to agree.

            Yes, though I get the impression some native speakers are indeed quite happy with this "by means of" usage. Merriam Webster lists this sentence as an example:

            He did some research via computer.

            Borderline case, perhaps, but myself, I would look for other prepositions here, and most certainly in the examples that you gave.

            BR

            M.
          • wustpisk
            At university I shared a house with a broad Wiganer for three years so I had an excellent opportunity to study this particular dialect in some depth and I
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 25, 2012
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              At university I shared a house with a broad Wiganer for three years so I had an excellent opportunity to study this particular dialect in some depth and I noticed that they occasionally use 'through' for an instrumental, but in the German sense of 'durch' - e.g. Berlin war zerstört durch Bomben
              It may well be the case also in other Lancashire towns (or elsewhere too), but it ain't the Queen's English.
              But I wouldn't use 'via' in the cases you mention except where used in its original Latin sense - something else would be more appropriate, and I wouldn't use TMs as the fount of all knowledge.


              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
              > >
              > > So, we appear to agree.
              >
              > Yes, though I get the impression some native speakers are indeed quite happy with this "by means of" usage. Merriam Webster lists this sentence as an example:
              >
              > He did some research via computer.
              >
              > Borderline case, perhaps, but myself, I would look for other prepositions here, and most certainly in the examples that you gave.
              >
              > BR
              >
              > M.
              >
            • James Kirchner
              Thanks, Gerry. I don t use TMs as the fount of all knowledge, but if I am translating a text intended to be read by the British, and the TM contains
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 25, 2012
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                Thanks, Gerry.

                I don't use TMs as the fount of all knowledge, but if I am translating a text intended to be read by the British, and the TM contains high-quality translations by a native British speaker, I will tend to defer to that person's usage. If it's obviously junk, I don't. Sometimes what looks to me like it might be junk is just British usage that I don't know, and at other times it's really junk, so I have to ask.

                Jamie

                On Nov 25, 2012, at 12:58 PM, wustpisk wrote:

                > At university I shared a house with a broad Wiganer for three years so I had an excellent opportunity to study this particular dialect in some depth and I noticed that they occasionally use 'through' for an instrumental, but in the German sense of 'durch' - e.g. Berlin war zerstort durch Bomben
                > It may well be the case also in other Lancashire towns (or elsewhere too), but it ain't the Queen's English.
                > But I wouldn't use 'via' in the cases you mention except where used in its original Latin sense - something else would be more appropriate, and I wouldn't use TMs as the fount of all knowledge.
                >
                >
                > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...> wrote:
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
                >>>
                >>> So, we appear to agree.
                >>
                >> Yes, though I get the impression some native speakers are indeed quite happy with this "by means of" usage. Merriam Webster lists this sentence as an example:
                >>
                >> He did some research via computer.
                >>
                >> Borderline case, perhaps, but myself, I would look for other prepositions here, and most certainly in the examples that you gave.
                >>
                >> BR
                >>
                >> M.
                >>
                >
                >
                > _______________________________________________
                > Czechlist mailing list
                > Czechlist@...
                > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


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              • wustpisk
                I would apply the duck test
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 25, 2012
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                  I would apply the duck test

                  --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thanks, Gerry.
                  >
                  > I don't use TMs as the fount of all knowledge, but if I am translating a text intended to be read by the British, and the TM contains high-quality translations by a native British speaker, I will tend to defer to that person's usage. If it's obviously junk, I don't. Sometimes what looks to me like it might be junk is just British usage that I don't know, and at other times it's really junk, so I have to ask.
                  >
                  > Jamie
                  >
                  > On Nov 25, 2012, at 12:58 PM, wustpisk wrote:
                  >
                  > > At university I shared a house with a broad Wiganer for three years so I had an excellent opportunity to study this particular dialect in some depth and I noticed that they occasionally use 'through' for an instrumental, but in the German sense of 'durch' - e.g. Berlin war zerstort durch Bomben
                  > > It may well be the case also in other Lancashire towns (or elsewhere too), but it ain't the Queen's English.
                  > > But I wouldn't use 'via' in the cases you mention except where used in its original Latin sense - something else would be more appropriate, and I wouldn't use TMs as the fount of all knowledge.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
                  > >>>
                  > >>> So, we appear to agree.
                  > >>
                  > >> Yes, though I get the impression some native speakers are indeed quite happy with this "by means of" usage. Merriam Webster lists this sentence as an example:
                  > >>
                  > >> He did some research via computer.
                  > >>
                  > >> Borderline case, perhaps, but myself, I would look for other prepositions here, and most certainly in the examples that you gave.
                  > >>
                  > >> BR
                  > >>
                  > >> M.
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > _______________________________________________
                  > > Czechlist mailing list
                  > > Czechlist@...
                  > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                  >
                  >
                  > _______________________________________________
                  > Czechlist mailing list
                  > Czechlist@...
                  > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                  >
                • Melvyn
                  ... Not just a regionalism IMHO. I reckon through instead of by can sometimes sound rather literary and/or olde worlde. I have wealth earned through my
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 26, 2012
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                    --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...> wrote:
                    >I noticed that they occasionally use 'through' for an instrumental, but in the German sense of 'durch' - e.g. Berlin war zerstört durch Bomben.
                    > It may well be the case also in other Lancashire towns (or elsewhere too), but it ain't the Queen's English.


                    Not just a regionalism IMHO. I reckon "through" instead of "by" can sometimes sound rather literary and/or olde worlde.

                    I have wealth earned through my efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of my arm, and piled up through the sweat of my brow.
                    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.062.than.html


                    Any other examples?

                    BR

                    M.
                  • wustpisk
                    You re right - I noticed yesterday morning that the Nicine creed states: through him all things were made , for example ( Per quem omnia facta sunt ) - per ,
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 26, 2012
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                      You're right - I noticed yesterday morning that the Nicine creed states: 'through him all things were made', for example ('Per quem omnia facta sunt') - 'per', rather than 'via'.

                      It was the particular use of 'through' in Wigan which exactly mirrors the German sense of 'durch' in the 'by means of' sense, also in the sense of 'because of' which struck me as unusual, and aside from that the Germanic/Viking influence on the language is generally marked in that neck of the woods (but not as much as in Newcastle). But it is probably a poor example.

                      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@> wrote:
                      > >I noticed that they occasionally use 'through' for an instrumental, but in the German sense of 'durch' - e.g. Berlin war zerstört durch Bomben.
                      > > It may well be the case also in other Lancashire towns (or elsewhere too), but it ain't the Queen's English.
                      >
                      >
                      > Not just a regionalism IMHO. I reckon "through" instead of "by" can sometimes sound rather literary and/or olde worlde.
                      >
                      > I have wealth earned through my efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of my arm, and piled up through the sweat of my brow.
                      > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.062.than.html
                      >
                      >
                      > Any other examples?
                      >
                      > BR
                      >
                      > M.
                      >
                    • Melvyn
                      ... Hmm, now you have got me comparing the New International Version of John 1:3: Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been
                      Message 10 of 11 , Nov 27, 2012
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                        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...> wrote:



                        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...> wrote:

                        > You're right - I noticed yesterday morning that the Nicine creed states: 'through him all things were made', for example ('Per quem omnia facta sunt') - 'per', rather than 'via'.

                        Hmm, now you have got me comparing the New International Version of John 1:3:

                        Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

                        with the King James Version:
                        All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

                        Seems to me there is a big potential difference in meaning between "through him" and "by him" here.

                        No problems like that in Czech.

                        Kralicky 1613
                        Vsecky veci skrze ne ucineny jsou, a bez neho nic neni ucineno, coz ucineno jest.

                        Ekumenicky 1985
                        Vsechno povstalo skrze ne a bez neho nepovstalo nic, co jest.


                        > It was the particular use of 'through' in Wigan which exactly mirrors the German sense of 'durch' in the 'by means of' sense, also in the sense of 'because of'

                        Do the yonners up there (excuse Manc cosmopolitan chauvinism) say things like "Tha shant get thur any faster through shovin"?

                        And do people in Wigan say "ooh, I'm coming over all wigan pier"? :-)

                        >which struck me as unusual, and aside from that the Germanic/Viking influence on the language is generally marked in that neck of the woods (but not as much as in Newcastle).

                        I read that for several centuries the Book of Common Prayer contained the prayer that God would "…deliver us from the North Man".

                        Fortunately, the ninth century fortified settlements along the River Mersey seem to have done their job well, so we in Stretford retain our "grating accent that sounds halfway to Scouse", with none of that ecky thump stuff. :-) (excuse pure groundless speculation).

                        BR

                        M.
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