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[Preklady] Re: Neodolatelna nabidka

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  • Martin Janda
    Hmmm, to muze byt docela realne. Mozna s tou vyhradou, ze i kdyz agentura dostane ty ctyri stovky, stejne se vetsinou snazi nakoupit co nejlevneji (zisk je
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 2, 2012
      Hmmm, to muze byt docela realne. Mozna s tou vyhradou, ze i kdyz
      agentura dostane ty ctyri stovky, stejne se vetsinou snazi nakoupit co
      nejlevneji (zisk je zisk, ze), a preklad podle toho vypada. A druha
      vyhrada - spouste zakazniku je kvalita prekladu sumak - sami cesky
      poradne neumeji, takze rozdil nepoznaji a ani netusi, ze je to nejak
      dulezite. Takze to vse ustrne v tomprvnim kroku, kdy vyhraje ten
      Skrivanek. Ostatne, jinak uz by davno musel umrit na ubyte....

      Kazdopadne diky zainspirativni pohled do zakulisi velkoobjemovych
      zakazek - tam se my prekladatelsti smrtelnici normalne nedostanem.

      Martin


      Dne 2.11.2012 12:01, Michal Moudrý napsal(a):
      >
      > Vážení kolegové.
      >
      > Domnívám se, že vždy bude více hůř placené práce než naopak.
      >
      > Standardní situací je, že firma vypíše veřejnou zakázku kterou vyhraje
      > například Skřivánek s cenou 250 kč/ns. Nejsou spokojeni a vyhlásí
      > tendr druhý, který vyhraje třeba moudrý za 240. A protože opět nejsou
      > spokojeni /je prostě pravdou, že překlad s Korekturou za 200
      > nakoupíme/ tak osloví freelancera a jsou konečně velmi spokojeni.
      > Platí mu 400...
      > /za 400 jim btw uděláme luxusní překlad také /
      >
      > Ale za půl roku nastoupí nový obchodní ředitel, zjistí že spolecnost
      > za překlady platí balík, nové koště dobře mete, udělá nový tendr který
      > vyhraje agentura allie za 217 kč...
      >
      > ... A jsme opět na začátku...
      >
      > A to nemluvím vůbec o státních zakázkách. Pokud veřejná správa vypíše
      > veřejnou zakázku v souladu se zákonem. Prakticky nikdy nezaplatí za
      > standardní jazyky víc než korunu za slovo...
      >
      > Michal Moudrý
      >
      > Odesláno ze smartphonu Sony Xperia™ smartphone
      >
      > Tomas Mosler <tomas.mosler@...
      > <mailto:tomas.mosler%40centrum.cz>>napsal/a:
      >
      > >Spis nez zisky BP (se stejnou logikou byste za praci pro momentalne
      > >prodelecnou firmu musela jeste platit) me zarazi jina vec:
      > >
      > >Zijete v USA a delate korektury (nedelam si iluze, ze by soucasti nebylo
      > >porovnani s originalem) za 0.025 USD? (A navzdory tomu se jeste
      > >pozastavujete nad nabidkou 0.016 USD.)
      > >
      > >A ja doted myslel, ze ceny podsekavaji jen prekladatele v Cesku.
      > >(Aby nedoslo k nedorozumeni, klidne si je podsekavejte, jen tento
      > >poznatek povazuji za novy kaminek do mozaiky duvodu maleho odhodlani
      > >nekterych kolegu v CR se na lacine joby vykaslat.)
      > >
      > >Tomas Mosler
      > >
      > >
      > >--- Diana Krausova <diana@...> wrote:
      > >>
      > >> Ahoj ve skupine,
      > >>
      > >> chtela jsem se podelit s lakavou nabidkou, kterou jsem pred chvili
      > >obdrzela od klienta:
      > >>
      > >>
      > >----------------------------------------------------------
      > >>
      > >> Dear Diana,
      > >>
      > >> We are currently looking for a linguist to proofread a document for a
      > >BP project from English to Czech.
      > >>
      > >> It contains 7155 words and subject matter is E-learning.
      > >> You will receive files on 6th November and the deadline is 7th
      > November.
      > >>
      > >> Regarding a rate, although you’ve given us USD 25 / 1000 words for
      > >proofreading for the profile, would you please agree with USD 16 for
      > >this project if you would be interested in?
      > >> I’m aware that this is very cheap rate, but as I mentioned above,
      > >this is a project for BP, and we’ve basically got a very small budget
      > >for every BP project.
      > >> But instead, we have frequent and a number of projects.
      > >>
      > >>
      > >----------------------------------------------------------
      > >>
      > >> Je mi jasne, ze to nekdo nakonec vezme :( To zduvodnovani nizke
      > >sazby je nicmene usmevne, korporace BP zrovna zverejnila zisk radove v
      > >miliardach americkych dolaru…
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> Diana
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
    • Tomas Mosler
      A co by ty agentury a firmy a statni instituce delaly, kdyby vsichni agenturni prekladatele pozadovali aspon ty ctyri stovky? Preklad by se nerealizoval?
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 2, 2012
        A co by ty agentury a firmy a statni instituce delaly, kdyby vsichni agenturni prekladatele pozadovali aspon ty ctyri stovky? Preklad by se nerealizoval?

        (Abych to rozvedl - predpokladam, ze asi nikdo nepreklada za 10 Kc / NS, i kdyz by to jiste byla skvela cena a jeste to neni 0; na druhou stranu i kdyz teoreticky lze uctovat 10.000 Kc / NS, asi takovych prekladatelu mnoho nebude, za orientacni strop bych povazoval strop "zapadnich" cen. Zatimco ale nyni agenturni prekladatel "lita" v dejme tomu rozpeti 100-1.000 Kc a pro hure placenou praci je vice prostoru, kdyby se to zmenilo na 500-1.000 Kc (za predpokladu, ze evropske ceny by se nemenily), zakazky za 200 by zkratka vymizely a sice by to vzdy nekdo tlacil k tem 500, ale to mi rozhodne prijde jina "hur placena" prace nez totez za 100, respektive vidim rozdil mezi nizsi odmenou a nedustojnou odmenou.)

        Tomas


        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Michal Moudr� <michal@...> wrote:
        >
        > Vážení kolegové.
        >
        > Domnívám se, že vždy bude více hůř placené práce než naopak.
        >
        > Standardní situací je, že firma vypíše veřejnou zakázku kterou vyhraje například Skřivánek s cenou 250 kč/ns. Nejsou spokojeni a vyhlásí tendr druhý, který vyhraje třeba moudrý za 240. A protože opět nejsou spokojeni /je prostě pravdou, že překlad s Korekturou za 200 nakoupíme/ tak osloví freelancera a jsou konečně velmi spokojeni. Platí mu 400...
        > /za 400 jim btw uděláme luxusní překlad také /
        >
        > Ale za půl roku nastoupí nový obchodní ředitel, zjistí že spolecnost za překlady platí balík, nové koště dobře mete, udělá nový tendr který vyhraje agentura allie za 217 kč...
        >
        > ... A jsme opět na začátku...
        >
        >
        > A to nemluvím vůbec o státních zakázkách. Pokud veřejná správa vypíše veřejnou zakázku v souladu se zákonem. Prakticky nikdy nezaplatí za standardní jazyky víc než korunu za slovo...
        >
        > Michal Moudrý
        >
        > Odesláno ze smartphonu Sony Xperia™ smartphone
        >
        > Tomas Mosler <tomas.mosler@...>napsal/a:
        >
        > >Spis nez zisky BP (se stejnou logikou byste za praci pro momentalne
        > >prodelecnou firmu musela jeste platit) me zarazi jina vec:
        > >
        > >Zijete v USA a delate korektury (nedelam si iluze, ze by soucasti nebylo
        > >porovnani s originalem) za 0.025 USD? (A navzdory tomu se jeste
        > >pozastavujete nad nabidkou 0.016 USD.)
        > >
        > >A ja doted myslel, ze ceny podsekavaji jen prekladatele v Cesku.
        > >(Aby nedoslo k nedorozumeni, klidne si je podsekavejte, jen tento
        > >poznatek povazuji za novy kaminek do mozaiky duvodu maleho odhodlani
        > >nekterych kolegu v CR se na lacine joby vykaslat.)
        > >
        > >Tomas Mosler
        > >
        > >
        > >--- Diana Krausova <diana@> wrote:
        > >>
        > >> Ahoj ve skupine,
        > >>
        > >> chtela jsem se podelit s lakavou nabidkou, kterou jsem pred chvili
        > >obdrzela od klienta:
        > >>
        > >>
        > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > >>
        > >> Dear Diana,
        > >>
        > >> We are currently looking for a linguist to proofread a document for a
        > >BP project from English to Czech.
        > >>
        > >> It contains 7155 words and subject matter is E-learning.
        > >> You will receive files on 6th November and the deadline is 7th November.
        > >>
        > >> Regarding a rate, although you’ve given us USD 25 / 1000 words for
        > >proofreading for the profile, would you please agree with USD 16 for
        > >this project if you would be interested in?
        > >> I’m aware that this is very cheap rate, but as I mentioned above,
        > >this is a project for BP, and we’ve basically got a very small budget
        > >for every BP project.
        > >> But instead, we have frequent and a number of projects.
        > >>
        > >>
        > >-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > >>
        > >> Je mi jasne, ze to nekdo nakonec vezme :( To zduvodnovani nizke
        > >sazby je nicmene usmevne, korporace BP zrovna zverejnila zisk radove v
        > >miliardach americkych dolaru…
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> Diana
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • hgeige@aol.com
        It is also a matter of buying power. Let us say that the US dollar is 18.50 CZK today. So, if I live in Prague, I get 462.5 CZK for 1000 words of
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 2, 2012
          It is also a matter of buying power. Let us say that the US dollar is
          18.50 CZK today. So, if I live in Prague, I get 462.5 CZK for 1000 words of
          proofreading at $25.00.
          Let us say that a humble one-bedroom apartment on the East Coast (around
          New York, New Jersey) is $1,200.
          If I do live on the East Coast, my health insurance is $418, (a cheap one,
          so called 'catastrophic' one, and it is, in more ways than one) my car
          insurance $900, a dinner in a popular(„lidová“ restaurace)restaurant for two
          is $55.00 before the tip, and a loaf of bread around $4.00. I am not
          saying that I do have to be going to restaurants, just illustrating. My gasoline
          is currently around $3.49 a gallon and my haircut $55.00 (not the best of
          the best, that one is $75.00), before the tip.
          Working for a Czech agency, even a relatively well paying one, means that
          I will get 2 to 3 times less than I’d get from a UK or US agency. Still,
          I maintain that a Czech translator living abroad will not survive while
          working exclusively forCzech agencies, while a Czech translator living in CR
          and working exclusively for Czech agencies could, I mean, not very well, but
          pays his rent, or not?
          Hanka Geiger

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • James Kirchner
          Hanka, cut all those prices in half, and you ve got an ordinary US cost of living. Still, I get your point. Jamie ...
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 2, 2012
            Hanka, cut all those prices in half, and you've got an ordinary US cost of living.

            Still, I get your point.

            Jamie

            On Nov 2, 2012, at 1:14 PM, hgeige@... wrote:

            >
            > It is also a matter of buying power. Let us say that the US dollar is
            > 18.50 CZK today. So, if I live in Prague, I get 462.5 CZK for 1000 words of
            > proofreading at $25.00.
            > Let us say that a humble one-bedroom apartment on the East Coast (around
            > New York, New Jersey) is $1,200.
            > If I do live on the East Coast, my health insurance is $418, (a cheap one,
            > so called 'catastrophic' one, and it is, in more ways than one) my car
            > insurance $900, a dinner in a popular(,,lidova" restaurace)restaurant for two
            > is $55.00 before the tip, and a loaf of bread around $4.00. I am not
            > saying that I do have to be going to restaurants, just illustrating. My gasoline
            > is currently around $3.49 a gallon and my haircut $55.00 (not the best of
            > the best, that one is $75.00), before the tip.
            > Working for a Czech agency, even a relatively well paying one, means that
            > I will get 2 to 3 times less than I'd get from a UK or US agency. Still,
            > I maintain that a Czech translator living abroad will not survive while
            > working exclusively forCzech agencies, while a Czech translator living in CR
            > and working exclusively for Czech agencies could, I mean, not very well, but
            > pays his rent, or not?
            > Hanka Geiger
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > _______________________________________________
            > Czechlist mailing list
            > Czechlist@...
            > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


            _______________________________________________
            Czechlist mailing list
            Czechlist@...
            http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
          • hgeige@aol.com
            Yes, of course, the cost of living in NY or CA is higher than in, let us say, Alabama, but the salaries are proportionate , so are the rents, i.e. very high,
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 2, 2012
              Yes, of course, the cost of living in NY or CA is higher than in, let us
              say, Alabama, but the salaries are "proportionate", so are the rents, i.e.
              very high, that is why the national average is lower, I suppose.

              Hannah


              In a message dated 11/2/2012 1:20:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              czechlist@... writes:




              Hanka, cut all those prices in half, and you've got an ordinary US cost of
              living.

              Still, I get your point.

              Jamie

              On Nov 2, 2012, at 1:14 PM, _hgeige@..._ (mailto:hgeige@...)
              wrote:

              >
              > It is also a matter of buying power. Let us say that the US dollar is
              > 18.50 CZK today. So, if I live in Prague, I get 462.5 CZK for 1000 words
              of
              > proofreading at $25.00.
              > Let us say that a humble one-bedroom apartment on the East Coast (around
              > New York, New Jersey) is $1,200.
              > If I do live on the East Coast, my health insurance is $418, (a cheap
              one,
              > so called 'catastrophic' one, and it is, in more ways than one) my car
              > insurance $900, a dinner in a popular(,,lidova" restaurace)restaurant
              for two
              > is $55.00 before the tip, and a loaf of bread around $4.00. I am not
              > saying that I do have to be going to restaurants, just illustrating. My
              gasoline
              > is currently around $3.49 a gallon and my haircut $55.00 (not the best
              of
              > the best, that one is $75.00), before the tip.
              > Working for a Czech agency, even a relatively well paying one, means
              that
              > I will get 2 to 3 times less than I'd get from a UK or US agency. Still,
              > I maintain that a Czech translator living abroad will not survive while
              > working exclusively forCzech agencies, while a Czech translator living
              in CR
              > and working exclusively for Czech agencies could, I mean, not very well,
              but
              > pays his rent, or not?
              > Hanka Geiger
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > _______________________________________________
              > Czechlist mailing list
              > _Czechlist@..._ (mailto:Czechlist@...)
              > _http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist_
              (http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist)

              _______________________________________________
              Czechlist mailing list
              _Czechlist@..._ (mailto:Czechlist@...)
              _http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist_
              (http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist)





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tomas Mosler
              ... Perhaps, but how relevant is that? I mean, when such a Czech translator gets paid xxxxx CZK a month and thinks, fine, this pays my rent, is he bound to
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 2, 2012
                > I maintain that a Czech translator living abroad will not survive while
                > working exclusively for Czech agencies, while a Czech translator living in CR
                > and working exclusively for Czech agencies could, I mean, not very well, but
                > pays his rent, or not?


                Perhaps, but how relevant is that? I mean, when such a Czech translator gets paid xxxxx CZK a month and thinks, fine, this pays my rent, is he bound to politely refuse any better rates because he could - what horror - earn some money extra? ;) (Or alternatively getting the same month income, but having more free time.)

                Besides that, with the same logic Czech (or Eastern Europe) producers should sell their products in Czech stores for 1/4 - 1/2 price (because it should be sufficient to cover local rents) compared to Western prices of the same product distributed over there, but somehow that is often not happenning.

                I mean, if Polish KitKat Chunky can cost 12 CZK / EUR 0.50 and Western produced ( = better quality) KK Chunky costs EUR 0.60, or if I can buy a bun (roll) in Germany for approx. EUR 0.10 and here for the same price, something is wrong with the "pay rent scheme".

                Tomas
              • hgeige@aol.com
                What was relevant to me was that while I could sort of support myself working for Czech agencies in CR, I could not support myself working for Czech agencies
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 2, 2012
                  What was relevant to me was that while I could "sort of" support myself
                  working for Czech agencies in CR, I could not support myself working for Czech
                  agencies from the U.S., due to different buying power.

                  Of course a translations totaling CZK 15 000 will pay my rent (I assume)
                  in Prague, but this amount will not pay my rent in New York. That is all I
                  meant, and sorry if I haven't expressed myself clearly.

                  What he/she refuses or not was not the issue I was putting forward.
                  Thanks, Tomas



                  In a message dated 11/2/2012 2:44:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                  tomas.mosler@... writes:




                  > I maintain that a Czech translator living abroad will not survive while
                  > working exclusively for Czech agencies, while a Czech translator living
                  in CR
                  > and working exclusively for Czech agencies could, I mean, not very well,
                  but
                  > pays his rent, or not?

                  Perhaps, but how relevant is that? I mean, when such a Czech translator
                  gets paid xxxxx CZK a month and thinks, fine, this pays my rent, is he bound
                  to politely refuse any better rates because he could - what horror - earn
                  some money extra? ;) (Or alternatively getting the same month income, but
                  having more free time.)

                  Besides that, with the same logic Czech (or Eastern Europe) producers
                  should sell their products in Czech stores for 1/4 - 1/2 price (because it
                  should be sufficient to cover local rents) compared to Western prices of the
                  same product distributed over there, but somehow that is often not happenning.

                  I mean, if Polish KitKat Chunky can cost 12 CZK / EUR 0.50 and Western
                  produced ( = better quality) KK Chunky costs EUR 0.60, or if I can buy a bun
                  (roll) in Germany for approx. EUR 0.10 and here for the same price,
                  something is wrong with the "pay rent scheme".

                  Tomas






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • hgeige@aol.com
                  sorry for the typo In a message dated 11/2/2012 2:53:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hgeige@aol.com writes: What was relevant to me was that while I could sort
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 2, 2012
                    sorry for the typo


                    In a message dated 11/2/2012 2:53:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                    hgeige@... writes:






                    What was relevant to me was that while I could "sort of" support myself
                    working for Czech agencies in CR, I could not support myself working for
                    Czech
                    agencies from the U.S., due to different buying power.

                    Of course a translations totaling CZK 15 000 will pay my rent (I assume)
                    in Prague, but this amount will not pay my rent in New York. That is all I
                    meant, and sorry if I haven't expressed myself clearly.

                    What he/she refuses or not was not the issue I was putting forward.
                    Thanks, Tomas



                    In a message dated 11/2/2012 2:44:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                    _tomas.mosler@..._ (mailto:tomas.mosler@...) writes:

                    > I maintain that a Czech translator living abroad will not survive while
                    > working exclusively for Czech agencies, while a Czech translator living
                    in CR
                    > and working exclusively for Czech agencies could, I mean, not very well,
                    but
                    > pays his rent, or not?

                    Perhaps, but how relevant is that? I mean, when such a Czech translator
                    gets paid xxxxx CZK a month and thinks, fine, this pays my rent, is he
                    bound
                    to politely refuse any better rates because he could - what horror - earn
                    some money extra? ;) (Or alternatively getting the same month income, but
                    having more free time.)

                    Besides that, with the same logic Czech (or Eastern Europe) producers
                    should sell their products in Czech stores for 1/4 - 1/2 price (because it
                    should be sufficient to cover local rents) compared to Western prices of
                    the
                    same product distributed over there, but somehow that is often not
                    happenning.

                    I mean, if Polish KitKat Chunky can cost 12 CZK / EUR 0.50 and Western
                    produced ( = better quality) KK Chunky costs EUR 0.60, or if I can buy a
                    bun
                    (roll) in Germany for approx. EUR 0.10 and here for the same price,
                    something is wrong with the "pay rent scheme".

                    Tomas

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Petr
                    Ja s tim naprosto souhlasim. Platy prekladatelu v CR je treba posuzovat v kontextu zivotnich nakladu v CR, prumerneho platu v CR, vydelku srovnatelnych
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 3, 2012
                      Ja s tim naprosto souhlasim. Platy prekladatelu v CR je treba posuzovat v kontextu zivotnich nakladu v CR, prumerneho platu v CR, vydelku srovnatelnych intelektualnich profesi v CR apod. Ono je to totez jako u lekaru, ti se ovsem muzou zvednout a jit zkusit stesti k zapadnim sousedum (protoze nase ekonomika jim nikdy zapadni platy nabidnout nemuze), kdezto u nas prekladatelu "ustoupit neni kam, za nami Moskva" (to byl jeden sovetsky roman ...).
                      Petr Adamek
                      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, hgeige@... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > What was relevant to me was that while I could "sort of" support myself
                      > working for Czech agencies in CR, I could not support myself working for Czech
                      > agencies from the U.S., due to different buying power.
                      >
                      > Of course a translations totaling CZK 15 000 will pay my rent (I assume)
                      > in Prague, but this amount will not pay my rent in New York. That is all I
                      > meant, and sorry if I haven't expressed myself clearly.
                      >
                      > What he/she refuses or not was not the issue I was putting forward.
                      > Thanks, Tomas
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > In a message dated 11/2/2012 2:44:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                      > tomas.mosler@... writes:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > > I maintain that a Czech translator living abroad will not survive while
                      > > working exclusively for Czech agencies, while a Czech translator living
                      > in CR
                      > > and working exclusively for Czech agencies could, I mean, not very well,
                      > but
                      > > pays his rent, or not?
                      >
                      > Perhaps, but how relevant is that? I mean, when such a Czech translator
                      > gets paid xxxxx CZK a month and thinks, fine, this pays my rent, is he bound
                      > to politely refuse any better rates because he could - what horror - earn
                      > some money extra? ;) (Or alternatively getting the same month income, but
                      > having more free time.)
                      >
                      > Besides that, with the same logic Czech (or Eastern Europe) producers
                      > should sell their products in Czech stores for 1/4 - 1/2 price (because it
                      > should be sufficient to cover local rents) compared to Western prices of the
                      > same product distributed over there, but somehow that is often not happenning.
                      >
                      > I mean, if Polish KitKat Chunky can cost 12 CZK / EUR 0.50 and Western
                      > produced ( = better quality) KK Chunky costs EUR 0.60, or if I can buy a bun
                      > (roll) in Germany for approx. EUR 0.10 and here for the same price,
                      > something is wrong with the "pay rent scheme".
                      >
                      > Tomas
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Martin Janda
                      Ale no tak, Petre. Proc bychom se zvedali a ustupovali? Na rozdil od doktoru nemusime byt nutne tam, kde potrebuji nasi praci a kde nam za ni plati, ne? Mame
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 3, 2012
                        Ale no tak, Petre. Proc bychom se zvedali a ustupovali? Na rozdil od
                        doktoru nemusime byt nutne tam, kde potrebuji nasi praci a kde nam za ni
                        plati, ne? Mame tak docela kliku - maloktera jina profese muze skloubit
                        zapadni odmenovani s ceskymi zivotnimi naklady...

                        Martin


                        Dne 3.11.2012 16:03, Petr napsal(a):
                        >
                        > Ja s tim naprosto souhlasim. Platy prekladatelu v CR je treba
                        > posuzovat v kontextu zivotnich nakladu v CR, prumerneho platu v CR,
                        > vydelku srovnatelnych intelektualnich profesi v CR apod. Ono je to
                        > totez jako u lekaru, ti se ovsem muzou zvednout a jit zkusit stesti k
                        > zapadnim sousedum (protoze nase ekonomika jim nikdy zapadni platy
                        > nabidnout nemuze), kdezto u nas prekladatelu "ustoupit neni kam, za
                        > nami Moskva" (to byl jeden sovetsky roman ...).
                        > Petr Adamek
                        > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > hgeige@... wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > What was relevant to me was that while I could "sort of" support myself
                        > > working for Czech agencies in CR, I could not support myself working
                        > for Czech
                        > > agencies from the U.S., due to different buying power.
                        > >
                        > > Of course a translations totaling CZK 15 000 will pay my rent (I
                        > assume)
                        > > in Prague, but this amount will not pay my rent in New York. That is
                        > all I
                        > > meant, and sorry if I haven't expressed myself clearly.
                        > >
                        > > What he/she refuses or not was not the issue I was putting forward.
                        > > Thanks, Tomas
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > In a message dated 11/2/2012 2:44:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                        > > tomas.mosler@... writes:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > > I maintain that a Czech translator living abroad will not survive
                        > while
                        > > > working exclusively for Czech agencies, while a Czech translator
                        > living
                        > > in CR
                        > > > and working exclusively for Czech agencies could, I mean, not very
                        > well,
                        > > but
                        > > > pays his rent, or not?
                        > >
                        > > Perhaps, but how relevant is that? I mean, when such a Czech translator
                        > > gets paid xxxxx CZK a month and thinks, fine, this pays my rent, is
                        > he bound
                        > > to politely refuse any better rates because he could - what horror -
                        > earn
                        > > some money extra? ;) (Or alternatively getting the same month
                        > income, but
                        > > having more free time.)
                        > >
                        > > Besides that, with the same logic Czech (or Eastern Europe) producers
                        > > should sell their products in Czech stores for 1/4 - 1/2 price
                        > (because it
                        > > should be sufficient to cover local rents) compared to Western
                        > prices of the
                        > > same product distributed over there, but somehow that is often not
                        > happenning.
                        > >
                        > > I mean, if Polish KitKat Chunky can cost 12 CZK / EUR 0.50 and Western
                        > > produced ( = better quality) KK Chunky costs EUR 0.60, or if I can
                        > buy a bun
                        > > (roll) in Germany for approx. EUR 0.10 and here for the same price,
                        > > something is wrong with the "pay rent scheme".
                        > >
                        > > Tomas
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                      • Tomas Mosler
                        Prekladatele ustoupit maji kam, o tom uz psal Martin, pouze (nekteri) mozna nemaji odvahu - a nakonec nekteri jsou mozna i spokojeni a radeji nez sobe daji
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 3, 2012
                          Prekladatele "ustoupit" maji kam, o tom uz psal Martin, pouze (nekteri) mozna nemaji odvahu - a nakonec nekteri jsou mozna i spokojeni a radeji nez sobe daji vic vydelat agenture. (Nic proti altruismu, ale myslim, ze zrovna v teto oblasti to neni uplne idealni pristup.)

                          Myslim, ze cena prace (zamerne nepisu plat, protoze prekladatelu s platem je podle me malo) prekladatele-zivnostnika se neda nacpat do nejakych tabulek a prumeru, ale odviji se (i) od toho, jakou odmenu povazuje kazdy jednotlive v ramci volneho trhu za svou praci za adekvatni.

                          Jinak co se tyka nakladu, Vase myslenka "kontextu nakladu" nefunguje ani v jinych oborech. Pokud dokazete nakupovat ceske potraviny za tretinovou cenu oproti zapadnim pri srovnatelne kvalite, prosim napiste mi, kde to je. Ja spis znam ceske potraviny za mozna nizsi cenu, ale take v nizsi kvalite.

                          Podobne je to i u dovazenych polozek. (Nakonec i software atd. pro prekladatele se - tusim s vyjimkou Wordfastu a castecne Tradosu, kdy to ale rozhodne neni 1/3 zapadnich cen - neprodava za "ceske" ceny; ostatne jak to, ze clenstvi v nekterych zahranicnich asociacich stoji podobne penize jako treba v JTP [a pritom je to trochu jiny servis].)

                          A plati to take u zbozi, ktere se vyrabi u nas, ale je dostupne i jinde. Napriklad cena eletriny, ktera je na evropske urovni. Nebo (toto uz jsem psal na Prekladech): Jak to, ze se Peugeoty vyrobene v Koline neprodavaji v CR za tretinovou cenu oproti cene (tychz levne vyrobenych vozu z Kolina) ve Francii? A takovych prikladu by bylo vice, nejde zdaleka jen o "zbytny" automobil.

                          Jestlize tedy zdaleka neplati "na ceskem trhu ceske ceny", proc by potom prekladatele meli byt nejaci otloukankove, "protoze nejaky prumer"? Jini podnikatele se tim take neridi a chteji prodavat zbozi a sluzby hypotetickemu prekladateli s 1/3 prijmem za cenu stejnou jako jinde.

                          Aby nedoslo k nedorozumeni, nerikam, ze vsechno vsude stoji stejne, na Zapade jsou IMHO drazsi hlavne sluzby a pojisteni, ale spis chci rict, ze se tam (jen priklad) 3x vic vydelava, i kdyz ne vse stoji 3x vic. Proc by tedy i prekladatel v CR nemohl vydelavat napr. 3x vic, i kdyz ne vse v CR stoji 3x vic ( = stejne jako "na Zapade")?

                          Jeste pro srovnani porovani prijmu v parite kupni sily (tedy co si lze koupit):
                          http://www.finance.cz/zpravy/finance/369199-kde-se-zije-za-prumernou-mzdu-nejlepe-/

                          Nebo toto:
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity
                          (Tipuji, ze prumerny prekladatel v Nemecku vydela vice nez 33 % (80/107) navic oproti prumernemu prekladateli v Cesku.)

                          Tomas Mosler


                          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Petr" <padamek@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Ja s tim naprosto souhlasim. Platy prekladatelu v CR je treba posuzovat v kontextu zivotnich nakladu v CR, prumerneho platu v CR, vydelku srovnatelnych intelektualnich profesi v CR apod. Ono je to totez jako u lekaru, ti se ovsem muzou zvednout a jit zkusit stesti k zapadnim sousedum (protoze nase ekonomika jim nikdy zapadni platy nabidnout nemuze), kdezto u nas prekladatelu "ustoupit neni kam, za nami Moskva" (to byl jeden sovetsky roman ...).
                          > Petr Adamek
                        • Tomas Mosler
                          Just a little follow-up on how the living costs in the West are assumably dramatically higher than in the Czech Republic, thus the employees/freelancers
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 15, 2012
                            Just a little follow-up on how the living costs in the "West" are assumably dramatically higher than in the Czech Republic, thus the employees/freelancers there need to earn more than people in the Czech Repbulic (or in other words, Czechs can live/survive a bit easier with lower nominal income).

                            "I tak ale muze prumerne vydelavajici Nemec vest vcelku slusny zivot. Ze srovnani cen potravin a spotrebniho zbozi mezi Nemeckem a Ceskem vyplyva, ze jsou priblizne stejne. Nektere druhy potravin, odevy, obuv ci elektronika jsou ve Spolkove republice dokonce levnejsi, a to az o jednu ctvrtinu.

                            Totez plati pro bydleni. Najem jednoho metru ctverecniho obytne plochy bytu ve starsim dome po rekonstrukci warm (po zapocitani nakladu na vytapeni) cini osm az deset eur. Za byt o plose padesati metru ctverecnich tak Nemci v prumeru zaplati 450 eur, a tedy priblizne jednu ctvrtinu sve ciste mesicni mzdy."

                            http://aktualne.centrum.cz/zahranici/evropa/clanek.phtml?id=760140

                            Tomas


                            > In a message dated 11/2/2012 2:53:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                            > hgeige@... writes:
                            >
                            >
                            > What was relevant to me was that while I could "sort of" support myself
                            > working for Czech agencies in CR, I could not support myself working for
                            > Czech
                            > agencies from the U.S., due to different buying power.
                            >
                            > Of course a translations totaling CZK 15 000 will pay my rent (I assume)
                            > in Prague, but this amount will not pay my rent in New York. That is all I
                            > meant, and sorry if I haven't expressed myself clearly.
                            >
                            > What he/she refuses or not was not the issue I was putting forward.
                            > Thanks, Tomas
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > In a message dated 11/2/2012 2:44:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                            > _tomas.mosler@..._ (mailto:tomas.mosler@...) writes:
                            >
                            > > I maintain that a Czech translator living abroad will not survive while
                            > > working exclusively for Czech agencies, while a Czech translator living
                            > in CR
                            > > and working exclusively for Czech agencies could, I mean, not very well,
                            > but
                            > > pays his rent, or not?
                            >
                            > Perhaps, but how relevant is that? I mean, when such a Czech translator
                            > gets paid xxxxx CZK a month and thinks, fine, this pays my rent, is he
                            > bound
                            > to politely refuse any better rates because he could - what horror - earn
                            > some money extra? ;) (Or alternatively getting the same month income, but
                            > having more free time.)
                            >
                            > Besides that, with the same logic Czech (or Eastern Europe) producers
                            > should sell their products in Czech stores for 1/4 - 1/2 price (because it
                            > should be sufficient to cover local rents) compared to Western prices of
                            > the
                            > same product distributed over there, but somehow that is often not
                            > happenning.
                            >
                            > I mean, if Polish KitKat Chunky can cost 12 CZK / EUR 0.50 and Western
                            > produced ( = better quality) KK Chunky costs EUR 0.60, or if I can buy a
                            > bun
                            > (roll) in Germany for approx. EUR 0.10 and here for the same price,
                            > something is wrong with the "pay rent scheme".
                            >
                            > Tomas
                          • Jakub Skrebsky
                            jen pro srovnani - zivotni naklady v Severnim Irsku jídlo: tezko se srovnava, ale mozna pomuze tato tabulka (nekolik let stara, ale vicemene se nic nezmenilo)
                            Message 13 of 14 , Nov 15, 2012
                              jen pro srovnani - zivotni naklady v Severnim Irsku
                              jídlo: tezko se srovnava, ale mozna pomuze tato tabulka (nekolik let stara, ale vicemene se nic nezmenilo) http://www.bedekr.cz/vybirate-dovolenou-nabizime-vam-prehled-cen-jidla-v-ruznych-zemich.
                              Obleceni - mirne levnejsi nez v CR (krome modnich znacek).
                              bydleni: 50m2 byt v klidne ctvrti maleho mesta - najem 500 GBP mesicne, na venkove 400 GBP, ve vetsich mestech od 600 GBP. Cena energii priblizne stejna jako v CR, ale Britove moc nepouzivaji tepelnou izolaci. Můj ucet za plynove topeni je asi 1300 GBP rocne.
                              Telefon+internet od 30 GBP mesicne
                              Mobil od 20 GBP mesicne
                              Pohonne hmoty: aktualne 1.45 - 1.48 GBP za litr v Severnim Irsku. Anglie je mirne levnejsi.
                              Povinne ruceni na auto: cerstvy ridic nejmene 3000 GBP rocne, babicka s vozem Honda Jazz kolem 500 GBP rocne. Ja platim 800 rocne.
                              Skolka pro jedno dite: min. 30 GBP denne, pouze lidi s prijmem pod zivotnim minimem maji slevu.
                              Skolne na zakladnich a strednich skolach se neplati, na vysoke od 2500 GBP rocne.
                              Minimalni mzda (pokladni, delnik, uklizecka, atd) je 6,19 na hodinu, asi 5 GBP cisteho.
                              Povinne vydaje zivnostnika : dan 20% ze zisku, nezdanitelne minimum asi 7000 GBP, nakladovy pausal neexistuje. Zdrav/socialni odvody asi 600 + 8% ze zisku, celkem tedy kolem 29%ze zisku do kasy Jejiho Velicenstva.

                              Jakub




                              On 15 Nov 2012, at 12:50, Tomas Mosler wrote:

                              > Just a little follow-up on how the living costs in the "West" are assumably dramatically higher than in the Czech Republic, thus the employees/freelancers there need to earn more than people in the Czech Repbulic (or in other words, Czechs can live/survive a bit easier with lower nominal income).
                              >
                              > "I tak ale muze prumerne vydelavajici Nemec vest vcelku slusny zivot. Ze srovnani cen potravin a spotrebniho zbozi mezi Nemeckem a Ceskem vyplyva, ze jsou priblizne stejne. Nektere druhy potravin, odevy, obuv ci elektronika jsou ve Spolkove republice dokonce levnejsi, a to az o jednu ctvrtinu.
                              >
                              > Totez plati pro bydleni. Najem jednoho metru ctverecniho obytne plochy bytu ve starsim dome po rekonstrukci warm (po zapocitani nakladu na vytapeni) cini osm az deset eur. Za byt o plose padesati metru ctverecnich tak Nemci v prumeru zaplati 450 eur, a tedy priblizne jednu ctvrtinu sve ciste mesicni mzdy."
                              >
                              > http://aktualne.centrum.cz/zahranici/evropa/clanek.phtml?id=760140
                              >
                              > Tomas
                              >
                              > > In a message dated 11/2/2012 2:53:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                              > > hgeige@... writes:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > What was relevant to me was that while I could "sort of" support myself
                              > > working for Czech agencies in CR, I could not support myself working for
                              > > Czech
                              > > agencies from the U.S., due to different buying power.
                              > >
                              > > Of course a translations totaling CZK 15 000 will pay my rent (I assume)
                              > > in Prague, but this amount will not pay my rent in New York. That is all I
                              > > meant, and sorry if I haven't expressed myself clearly.
                              > >
                              > > What he/she refuses or not was not the issue I was putting forward.
                              > > Thanks, Tomas
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > In a message dated 11/2/2012 2:44:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                              > > _tomas.mosler@..._ (mailto:tomas.mosler@...) writes:
                              > >
                              > > > I maintain that a Czech translator living abroad will not survive while
                              > > > working exclusively for Czech agencies, while a Czech translator living
                              > > in CR
                              > > > and working exclusively for Czech agencies could, I mean, not very well,
                              > > but
                              > > > pays his rent, or not?
                              > >
                              > > Perhaps, but how relevant is that? I mean, when such a Czech translator
                              > > gets paid xxxxx CZK a month and thinks, fine, this pays my rent, is he
                              > > bound
                              > > to politely refuse any better rates because he could - what horror - earn
                              > > some money extra? ;) (Or alternatively getting the same month income, but
                              > > having more free time.)
                              > >
                              > > Besides that, with the same logic Czech (or Eastern Europe) producers
                              > > should sell their products in Czech stores for 1/4 - 1/2 price (because it
                              > > should be sufficient to cover local rents) compared to Western prices of
                              > > the
                              > > same product distributed over there, but somehow that is often not
                              > > happenning.
                              > >
                              > > I mean, if Polish KitKat Chunky can cost 12 CZK / EUR 0.50 and Western
                              > > produced ( = better quality) KK Chunky costs EUR 0.60, or if I can buy a
                              > > bun
                              > > (roll) in Germany for approx. EUR 0.10 and here for the same price,
                              > > something is wrong with the "pay rent scheme".
                              > >
                              > > Tomas
                              >
                              >



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