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Use of the TM symbol in Czech

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  • Matej Klimes
    A client s client insists on using TM in superscript above the word Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is conjugated, i.e. it s an
    Message 1 of 23 , Aug 8, 2012
      A client's client insists on using TM in superscript above the word
      Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is
      conjugated, i.e. it's an advert headline that says someting like (made
      up example):

      Rozumim si s Androidem - where the ENG original was something like 'I
      am made for Android'

      (the adverts are for a consumer electronic device unrelated to
      Android/google, just using it and the bits in questions are headlines,
      not body copies, or small print..)

      It wasn't there originally, but now the client's client (the
      manufacturer) came back saying there has to be a (TM) after every
      Android - makes sense (and looks/sounds fine) in English, but I'm
      trying to tell them that we don't normally use it in Czech in plain
      text (let alone in advertising copy/headlines), I guess the main reason
      is that it's an English abbreviation and it looks weird in a Czech
      sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending
      tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically it's not
      the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt they
      registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is a
      cultural thing, we just don't do it in text or in copy - there'll be a
      small print footnote saying that Coca Cola is registered TM of xxx etc.
      (in Czech), but the copy itself - especially headlines - will not have
      any TM in it in Czech adverts...

      Can you confirm (or not) this feeling/opinion? Both Czech and ENG
      speakers? Thoughts?

      Thanks

      Matej
    • wustpisk
      If they want their little TM, let them have it koho chleba jís, toho pisen zpivej Neres to :)
      Message 2 of 23 , Aug 8, 2012
        If they want their little TM, let them have it
        koho chleba jís, toho pisen zpivej

        Neres to :)

        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
        >
        > A client's client insists on using TM in superscript above the word
        > Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is
        > conjugated, i.e. it's an advert headline that says someting like (made
        > up example):
        >
        > Rozumim si s Androidem - where the ENG original was something like 'I
        > am made for Android'
        >
        > (the adverts are for a consumer electronic device unrelated to
        > Android/google, just using it and the bits in questions are headlines,
        > not body copies, or small print..)
        >
        > It wasn't there originally, but now the client's client (the
        > manufacturer) came back saying there has to be a (TM) after every
        > Android - makes sense (and looks/sounds fine) in English, but I'm
        > trying to tell them that we don't normally use it in Czech in plain
        > text (let alone in advertising copy/headlines), I guess the main reason
        > is that it's an English abbreviation and it looks weird in a Czech
        > sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending
        > tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically it's not
        > the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt they
        > registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is a
        > cultural thing, we just don't do it in text or in copy - there'll be a
        > small print footnote saying that Coca Cola is registered TM of xxx etc.
        > (in Czech), but the copy itself - especially headlines - will not have
        > any TM in it in Czech adverts...
        >
        > Can you confirm (or not) this feeling/opinion? Both Czech and ENG
        > speakers? Thoughts?
        >
        > Thanks
        >
        > Matej
        >
      • Matej Klimes
        I did (let them have it if they want to), but I told them it s going to look silly in an ad headline... the reason I asked here was to confirm whether that s
        Message 3 of 23 , Aug 9, 2012
          I did (let them have it if they want to), but I told them it's going to
          look silly in an ad headline... the reason I asked here was to confirm
          whether that's not just my theory/preference..


          M
          ------ Original Message ------
          From: "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...>
          To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: 8.8.2012 15:31:33
          Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
          > If they want their little TM, let them have it
          >koho chleba jís, toho pisen zpivej
          >
          >Neres to :)
          >
          >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
          >>
          >> A client's client insists on using TM in superscript above the word
          >> Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is
          >> conjugated, i.e. it's an advert headline that says someting like
          >(made
          >> up example):
          >>
          >> Rozumim si s Androidem - where the ENG original was something like
          >'I
          >> am made for Android'
          >>
          >> (the adverts are for a consumer electronic device unrelated to
          >> Android/google, just using it and the bits in questions are
          >headlines,
          >> not body copies, or small print..)
          >>
          >> It wasn't there originally, but now the client's client (the
          >> manufacturer) came back saying there has to be a (TM) after every
          >> Android - makes sense (and looks/sounds fine) in English, but I'm
          >> trying to tell them that we don't normally use it in Czech in plain
          >> text (let alone in advertising copy/headlines), I guess the main
          >reason
          >> is that it's an English abbreviation and it looks weird in a Czech
          >> sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending
          >> tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically it's not
          >> the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt
          >they
          >> registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is a
          >> cultural thing, we just don't do it in text or in copy - there'll be
          >a
          >> small print footnote saying that Coca Cola is registered TM of xxx
          >etc.
          >> (in Czech), but the copy itself - especially headlines - will not
          >have
          >> any TM in it in Czech adverts...
          >>
          >> Can you confirm (or not) this feeling/opinion? Both Czech and ENG
          >> speakers? Thoughts?
          >>
          >> Thanks
          >>
          >> Matej
          >>
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Martin Janda
          No, that s a preference of all native Czechs (or at least those with a decent language feeling). That s something I keep struggling with every day when facing
          Message 4 of 23 , Aug 9, 2012
            No, that's a preference of all native Czechs (or at least those with a
            decent language feeling). That's something I keep struggling with every
            day when facing my clients, typically US-based agency PMs. My favorite
            reply to those requests is something like this:

            Imagine you have a Spanish client asking you to translate their fancy
            Spanish ad into English. The client demands that you keep all inverted
            questionmarks and exclamation marks (that they use at the beginning of
            sentences) because 'If it works in Spanish, then it must work in English
            too'. Would you be happy with that?

            Another M




            Dne 9.8.2012 9:49, Matej Klimes napsal(a):
            >
            > I did (let them have it if they want to), but I told them it's going to
            > look silly in an ad headline... the reason I asked here was to confirm
            > whether that's not just my theory/preference..
            >
            >
            > M
            > ------ Original Message ------
            > From: "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...
            > <mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>>
            > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: 8.8.2012 15:31:33
            > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
            > > If they want their little TM, let them have it
            > >koho chleba jís, toho pisen zpivej
            > >
            > >Neres to :)
            > >
            > >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
            > >>
            > >> A client's client insists on using TM in superscript above the word
            > >> Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is
            > >> conjugated, i.e. it's an advert headline that says someting like
            > >(made
            > >> up example):
            > >>
            > >> Rozumim si s Androidem - where the ENG original was something like
            > >'I
            > >> am made for Android'
            > >>
            > >> (the adverts are for a consumer electronic device unrelated to
            > >> Android/google, just using it and the bits in questions are
            > >headlines,
            > >> not body copies, or small print..)
            > >>
            > >> It wasn't there originally, but now the client's client (the
            > >> manufacturer) came back saying there has to be a (TM) after every
            > >> Android - makes sense (and looks/sounds fine) in English, but I'm
            > >> trying to tell them that we don't normally use it in Czech in plain
            > >> text (let alone in advertising copy/headlines), I guess the main
            > >reason
            > >> is that it's an English abbreviation and it looks weird in a Czech
            > >> sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending
            > >> tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically it's not
            > >> the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt
            > >they
            > >> registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is a
            > >> cultural thing, we just don't do it in text or in copy - there'll be
            > >a
            > >> small print footnote saying that Coca Cola is registered TM of xxx
            > >etc.
            > >> (in Czech), but the copy itself - especially headlines - will not
            > >have
            > >> any TM in it in Czech adverts...
            > >>
            > >> Can you confirm (or not) this feeling/opinion? Both Czech and ENG
            > >> speakers? Thoughts?
            > >>
            > >> Thanks
            > >>
            > >> Matej
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
          • Pilucha, Jiri
            Re „it looks weird in a Czech sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically
            Message 5 of 23 , Aug 9, 2012
              Re> „it looks weird in a Czech sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically it's not the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt they registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is a cultural thing“

              I’d say it’s a legal thing rather than a cultural thing.
              They don’t need to „register every possible variant in all languages“, simply because (legally) you are not permitted to change the word in any way. Conjugating the word is violation of the Trade Mark. Strictly speaking you should never use „Androidem“ but always „operacnim systemem Android“. It’s not about „what works better in Czech“ but about multimillion lawsuits. Obviously, it is a pain in the *ss to do this all the time, but here’s the key point: if your client releases your translation wehere the word is changed and thus the trade mark violated (especially in high visibility instances such as advertisng), it’s THEM who’s running the risk of legal action against them. Highly unlikely but not unheard of.

              That much for conjugating the TM-ed words. As for using TM on every occurrence of the word, I agree it’s a lot more elegant to resolve it by small print footnotes instead, and that’s exactly what you see most of the time in the US too (i.e. it’s not a matter of „decent language feeling“ of Czechs as Martin put it) but if the client insists on it I can see no reason why stubbornly refuse it.

              Jiri


              From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Martin Janda
              Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:17 AM
              To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech



              No, that's a preference of all native Czechs (or at least those with a
              decent language feeling). That's something I keep struggling with every
              day when facing my clients, typically US-based agency PMs. My favorite
              reply to those requests is something like this:

              Imagine you have a Spanish client asking you to translate their fancy
              Spanish ad into English. The client demands that you keep all inverted
              questionmarks and exclamation marks (that they use at the beginning of
              sentences) because 'If it works in Spanish, then it must work in English
              too'. Would you be happy with that?

              Another M

              Dne 9.8.2012 9:49, Matej Klimes napsal(a):
              >
              > I did (let them have it if they want to), but I told them it's going to
              > look silly in an ad headline... the reason I asked here was to confirm
              > whether that's not just my theory/preference..
              >
              >
              > M
              > ------ Original Message ------
              > From: "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...<mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>
              > <mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>>
              > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: 8.8.2012 15:31:33
              > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
              > > If they want their little TM, let them have it
              > >koho chleba jís, toho pisen zpivej
              > >
              > >Neres to :)
              > >
              > >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
              > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...<mailto:mklimes@...>> wrote:
              > >>
              > >> A client's client insists on using TM in superscript above the word
              > >> Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is
              > >> conjugated, i.e. it's an advert headline that says someting like
              > >(made
              > >> up example):
              > >>
              > >> Rozumim si s Androidem - where the ENG original was something like
              > >'I
              > >> am made for Android'
              > >>
              > >> (the adverts are for a consumer electronic device unrelated to
              > >> Android/google, just using it and the bits in questions are
              > >headlines,
              > >> not body copies, or small print..)
              > >>
              > >> It wasn't there originally, but now the client's client (the
              > >> manufacturer) came back saying there has to be a (TM) after every
              > >> Android - makes sense (and looks/sounds fine) in English, but I'm
              > >> trying to tell them that we don't normally use it in Czech in plain
              > >> text (let alone in advertising copy/headlines), I guess the main
              > >reason
              > >> is that it's an English abbreviation and it looks weird in a Czech
              > >> sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending
              > >> tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically it's not
              > >> the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt
              > >they
              > >> registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is a
              > >> cultural thing, we just don't do it in text or in copy - there'll be
              > >a
              > >> small print footnote saying that Coca Cola is registered TM of xxx
              > >etc.
              > >> (in Czech), but the copy itself - especially headlines - will not
              > >have
              > >> any TM in it in Czech adverts...
              > >>
              > >> Can you confirm (or not) this feeling/opinion? Both Czech and ENG
              > >> speakers? Thoughts?
              > >>
              > >> Thanks
              > >>
              > >> Matej
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Martin Janda
              I beg to disagree, Jirka. The Czech web, media and space around us are full of conjugated forms of all kinds of brand names, not only Adroid. No one seem to
              Message 6 of 23 , Aug 9, 2012
                I beg to disagree, Jirka. The Czech web, media and space around us are
                full of conjugated forms of all kinds of brand names, not only Adroid.
                No one seem to initiate any lawsuits because of that, let alone
                multimilion lawsuits. What would you want to claim/complaint of? Brani
                znacky bozi bez trejdmarku do ust nadarmo? What harm this should make to
                whom? No one will tell you why even if you ask your clients. A legal
                thing, yes. I can almost hear American lawyers: 'We don't think you
                would need to use furcoats in Borneo but please keep wearing them, just
                in case a snow storm arrives.'

                As to stubborn refusals - it depends what is my goal. Whether to make
                the paying customer happy whatever the costs are, or to make the end
                user of my text happy. I go for the latter... and if the paying
                customer is reasonable and listen to me, s/he will be happy too. (And I
                am trying hard to keep the reasonable ones and avoid the rest.)

                Martin



                Dne 9.8.2012 21:19, Pilucha, Jiri napsal(a):
                >
                >
                > Re> „it looks weird in a Czech sentence, especially when the word is
                > conjugated (it has an ending tacked onto it, which makes it sound
                > Czech, AND technically it's not the Trade Mark any more, Android is,
                > but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt they registered every possible variant in
                > all languages)... this is a cultural thing“
                >
                > I’d say it’s a legal thing rather than a cultural thing.
                > They don’t need to „register every possible variant in all languages“,
                > simply because (legally) you are not permitted to change the word in
                > any way. Conjugating the word is violation of the Trade Mark. Strictly
                > speaking you should never use „Androidem“ but always „operacnim
                > systemem Android“. It’s not about „what works better in Czech“ but
                > about multimillion lawsuits. Obviously, it is a pain in the *ss to do
                > this all the time, but here’s the key point: if your client releases
                > your translation wehere the word is changed and thus the trade mark
                > violated (especially in high visibility instances such as advertisng),
                > it’s THEM who’s running the risk of legal action against them. Highly
                > unlikely but not unheard of.
                >
                > That much for conjugating the TM-ed words. As for using TM on every
                > occurrence of the word, I agree it’s a lot more elegant to resolve it
                > by small print footnotes instead, and that’s exactly what you see most
                > of the time in the US too (i.e. it’s not a matter of „decent language
                > feeling“ of Czechs as Martin put it) but if the client insists on it I
                > can see no reason why stubbornly refuse it.
                >
                > Jiri
                >
                >
                > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                > [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Martin Janda
                > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:17 AM
                > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
                >
                >
                >
                > No, that's a preference of all native Czechs (or at least those with a
                > decent language feeling). That's something I keep struggling with every
                > day when facing my clients, typically US-based agency PMs. My favorite
                > reply to those requests is something like this:
                >
                > Imagine you have a Spanish client asking you to translate their fancy
                > Spanish ad into English. The client demands that you keep all inverted
                > questionmarks and exclamation marks (that they use at the beginning of
                > sentences) because 'If it works in Spanish, then it must work in English
                > too'. Would you be happy with that?
                >
                > Another M
                >
                > Dne 9.8.2012 9:49, Matej Klimes napsal(a):
                > >
                > > I did (let them have it if they want to), but I told them it's going to
                > > look silly in an ad headline... the reason I asked here was to confirm
                > > whether that's not just my theory/preference..
                > >
                > >
                > > M
                > > ------ Original Message ------
                > > From: "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...
                > <mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com><mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>
                > > <mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>>
                > > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: 8.8.2012 15:31:33
                > > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
                > > > If they want their little TM, let them have it
                > > >koho chleba jís, toho pisen zpivej
                > > >
                > > >Neres to :)
                > > >
                > > >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Matej Klimes"
                > <mklimes@...<mailto:mklimes@...>> wrote:
                > > >>
                > > >> A client's client insists on using TM in superscript above the word
                > > >> Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is
                > > >> conjugated, i.e. it's an advert headline that says someting like
                > > >(made
                > > >> up example):
                > > >>
                > > >> Rozumim si s Androidem - where the ENG original was something like
                > > >'I
                > > >> am made for Android'
                > > >>
                > > >> (the adverts are for a consumer electronic device unrelated to
                > > >> Android/google, just using it and the bits in questions are
                > > >headlines,
                > > >> not body copies, or small print..)
                > > >>
                > > >> It wasn't there originally, but now the client's client (the
                > > >> manufacturer) came back saying there has to be a (TM) after every
                > > >> Android - makes sense (and looks/sounds fine) in English, but I'm
                > > >> trying to tell them that we don't normally use it in Czech in plain
                > > >> text (let alone in advertising copy/headlines), I guess the main
                > > >reason
                > > >> is that it's an English abbreviation and it looks weird in a Czech
                > > >> sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending
                > > >> tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically it's not
                > > >> the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt
                > > >they
                > > >> registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is a
                > > >> cultural thing, we just don't do it in text or in copy - there'll be
                > > >a
                > > >> small print footnote saying that Coca Cola is registered TM of xxx
                > > >etc.
                > > >> (in Czech), but the copy itself - especially headlines - will not
                > > >have
                > > >> any TM in it in Czech adverts...
                > > >>
                > > >> Can you confirm (or not) this feeling/opinion? Both Czech and ENG
                > > >> speakers? Thoughts?
                > > >>
                > > >> Thanks
                > > >>
                > > >> Matej
                > > >>
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
              • Pilucha, Jiri
                Martine, (a) as to conjugation of Trade Names in a corporate environment I’ve been trained to strictly avoid any legal risk and you may rightly regard it a
                Message 7 of 23 , Aug 9, 2012
                  Martine,

                  (a) as to conjugation of Trade Names

                  in a corporate environment I’ve been trained to strictly avoid any legal risk and you may rightly regard it a professional deformation. But professional issues aside, personally I am willing to respect legal rights of others, even in purely formal aspects where non-compliance may not cause any big harm. In today’s environment where most people don’t give a damn e.g. about copyright (to which trademark issues are somewhat related in nature) I see it as a symbolic gesture of respect which I consciously wish to express. Of course a lot depends on the type of text (a novel, blog, opinion column, Facebook posting, as opposed to official documents, product documentation, advertisements…)

                  About a lawsuit, I noted that it was „highly unlikely but not unheard of“. In 99.9999999% of cases they won‘t sue. But for instance I’ve heard of corporation X which sued their client (!) for using X’s logo in lower than camera-ready resolution and they succeeded. If you ask me I don’t want to be the 0.00000001%.

                  (b) as to client satisfaction

                  Re: „Whether to make the paying customer happy whatever the costs are…“ -- I don’t entirely understand the horrendous cost of attaching TM to the product name. What’s the big deal here? (Admittedly, what I don’t understand either is why would they bother getting back to you about this rather than making the cosmetic change themselves)

                  Jiri




                  From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Martin Janda
                  Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 10:18 PM
                  To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech



                  I beg to disagree, Jirka. The Czech web, media and space around us are
                  full of conjugated forms of all kinds of brand names, not only Adroid.
                  No one seem to initiate any lawsuits because of that, let alone
                  multimilion lawsuits. What would you want to claim/complaint of? Brani
                  znacky bozi bez trejdmarku do ust nadarmo? What harm this should make to
                  whom? No one will tell you why even if you ask your clients. A legal
                  thing, yes. I can almost hear American lawyers: 'We don't think you
                  would need to use furcoats in Borneo but please keep wearing them, just
                  in case a snow storm arrives.'

                  As to stubborn refusals - it depends what is my goal. Whether to make
                  the paying customer happy whatever the costs are, or to make the end
                  user of my text happy. I go for the latter... and if the paying
                  customer is reasonable and listen to me, s/he will be happy too. (And I
                  am trying hard to keep the reasonable ones and avoid the rest.)

                  Martin

                  Dne 9.8.2012 21:19, Pilucha, Jiri napsal(a):
                  >
                  >
                  > Re> „it looks weird in a Czech sentence, especially when the word is
                  > conjugated (it has an ending tacked onto it, which makes it sound
                  > Czech, AND technically it's not the Trade Mark any more, Android is,
                  > but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt they registered every possible variant in
                  > all languages)... this is a cultural thing“
                  >
                  > I’d say it’s a legal thing rather than a cultural thing.
                  > They don’t need to „register every possible variant in all languages“,
                  > simply because (legally) you are not permitted to change the word in
                  > any way. Conjugating the word is violation of the Trade Mark. Strictly
                  > speaking you should never use „Androidem“ but always „operacnim
                  > systemem Android“. It’s not about „what works better in Czech“ but
                  > about multimillion lawsuits. Obviously, it is a pain in the *ss to do
                  > this all the time, but here’s the key point: if your client releases
                  > your translation wehere the word is changed and thus the trade mark
                  > violated (especially in high visibility instances such as advertisng),
                  > it’s THEM who’s running the risk of legal action against them. Highly
                  > unlikely but not unheard of.
                  >
                  > That much for conjugating the TM-ed words. As for using TM on every
                  > occurrence of the word, I agree it’s a lot more elegant to resolve it
                  > by small print footnotes instead, and that’s exactly what you see most
                  > of the time in the US too (i.e. it’s not a matter of „decent language
                  > feeling“ of Czechs as Martin put it) but if the client insists on it I
                  > can see no reason why stubbornly refuse it.
                  >
                  > Jiri
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Martin Janda
                  > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:17 AM
                  > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > No, that's a preference of all native Czechs (or at least those with a
                  > decent language feeling). That's something I keep struggling with every
                  > day when facing my clients, typically US-based agency PMs. My favorite
                  > reply to those requests is something like this:
                  >
                  > Imagine you have a Spanish client asking you to translate their fancy
                  > Spanish ad into English. The client demands that you keep all inverted
                  > questionmarks and exclamation marks (that they use at the beginning of
                  > sentences) because 'If it works in Spanish, then it must work in English
                  > too'. Would you be happy with that?
                  >
                  > Another M
                  >
                  > Dne 9.8.2012 9:49, Matej Klimes napsal(a):
                  > >
                  > > I did (let them have it if they want to), but I told them it's going to
                  > > look silly in an ad headline... the reason I asked here was to confirm
                  > > whether that's not just my theory/preference..
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > M
                  > > ------ Original Message ------
                  > > From: "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...<mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>
                  > <mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com><mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>
                  > > <mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>>
                  > > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: 8.8.2012 15:31:33
                  > > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
                  > > > If they want their little TM, let them have it
                  > > >koho chleba jís, toho pisen zpivej
                  > > >
                  > > >Neres to :)
                  > > >
                  > > >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Matej Klimes"
                  > <mklimes@...<mailto:mklimes@...<mailto:mklimes@...%3cmailto:mklimes@...>>> wrote:
                  > > >>
                  > > >> A client's client insists on using TM in superscript above the word
                  > > >> Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is
                  > > >> conjugated, i.e. it's an advert headline that says someting like
                  > > >(made
                  > > >> up example):
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Rozumim si s Androidem - where the ENG original was something like
                  > > >'I
                  > > >> am made for Android'
                  > > >>
                  > > >> (the adverts are for a consumer electronic device unrelated to
                  > > >> Android/google, just using it and the bits in questions are
                  > > >headlines,
                  > > >> not body copies, or small print..)
                  > > >>
                  > > >> It wasn't there originally, but now the client's client (the
                  > > >> manufacturer) came back saying there has to be a (TM) after every
                  > > >> Android - makes sense (and looks/sounds fine) in English, but I'm
                  > > >> trying to tell them that we don't normally use it in Czech in plain
                  > > >> text (let alone in advertising copy/headlines), I guess the main
                  > > >reason
                  > > >> is that it's an English abbreviation and it looks weird in a Czech
                  > > >> sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending
                  > > >> tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically it's not
                  > > >> the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt
                  > > >they
                  > > >> registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is a
                  > > >> cultural thing, we just don't do it in text or in copy - there'll be
                  > > >a
                  > > >> small print footnote saying that Coca Cola is registered TM of xxx
                  > > >etc.
                  > > >> (in Czech), but the copy itself - especially headlines - will not
                  > > >have
                  > > >> any TM in it in Czech adverts...
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Can you confirm (or not) this feeling/opinion? Both Czech and ENG
                  > > >> speakers? Thoughts?
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Thanks
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Matej
                  > > >>
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Matej Klimes
                  Diky Jirko a Martine for further input.. Re conjugating Android - these were advertising headlines, Jirko, if I said s operacnim systemem Android every time,
                  Message 8 of 23 , Aug 9, 2012
                    Diky Jirko a Martine for further input..

                    Re conjugating Android - these were advertising headlines, Jirko, if I
                    said 's operacnim systemem Android' every time, they would sound stupid
                    and would not fit into the banner/on billboards because they'd be twice
                    as long.. some brand names are best not conjugated (and then you need a
                    'berlicka', hopefully shorter than this), but some conjugate very well
                    - and Android is one of those, see around as Martin said (I think it's
                    because we think of it - the name - as a person?)... it wasn't my idea
                    or persistence to conjugate it - it's been done before in other
                    headlines of that particular client, plus it really makes sense here,
                    the headlines would just be stupid otherwise..

                    Thanks for enlightening me on the legal/TM situation - now that I think
                    of it it makes sense, but I don't think anyone's likely to be enforcing
                    the no conjugation rule

                    Re client satisfaction.. I didn't insist, I just told them using TM in
                    every headline is not what we do in Czech, that it looks weird because
                    of this and that (conjugation being one of those) and that it is
                    usually dealt with in small print in Czech ads and that I'd recommend
                    dropping it to get the best result (Martin's example with Spanish
                    question marks - although it's not exactly the same thing - is a good
                    way to explain this, I'll use it next time..)... It was their call in
                    the end and we'll see how they decided when the adverts are out..

                    Thanks again

                    M


                    ------ Original Message ------
                    From: "Pilucha, Jiri" <jiri.pilucha@...>
                    To: "Czechlist@yahoogroups.com" <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: 9.8.2012 23:32:37
                    Subject: RE: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
                    > Martine,
                    >
                    >(a) as to conjugation of Trade Names
                    >
                    >in a corporate environment I’ve been trained to strictly avoid any
                    >legal risk and you may rightly regard it a professional deformation.
                    >But professional issues aside, personally I am willing to respect
                    >legal rights of others, even in purely formal aspects where
                    >non-compliance may not cause any big harm. In today’s environment
                    >where most people don’t give a damn e.g. about copyright (to which
                    >trademark issues are somewhat related in nature) I see it as a
                    >symbolic gesture of respect which I consciously wish to express. Of
                    >course a lot depends on the type of text (a novel, blog, opinion
                    >column, Facebook posting, as opposed to official documents, product
                    >documentation, advertisements…)
                    >
                    >About a lawsuit, I noted that it was „highly unlikely but not unheard
                    >of“. In 99.9999999% of cases they won‘t sue. But for instance I’ve
                    >heard of corporation X which sued their client (!) for using X’s logo
                    >in lower than camera-ready resolution and they succeeded. If you ask
                    >me I don’t want to be the 0.00000001%.
                    >
                    >(b) as to client satisfaction
                    >
                    >Re: „Whether to make the paying customer happy whatever the costs
                    >are…“ -- I don’t entirely understand the horrendous cost of attaching
                    >TM to the product name. What’s the big deal here? (Admittedly, what I
                    >don’t understand either is why would they bother getting back to you
                    >about this rather than making the cosmetic change themselves)
                    >
                    >Jiri
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Martin Janda
                    >Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 10:18 PM
                    >To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >I beg to disagree, Jirka. The Czech web, media and space around us are
                    >full of conjugated forms of all kinds of brand names, not only Adroid.
                    >No one seem to initiate any lawsuits because of that, let alone
                    >multimilion lawsuits. What would you want to claim/complaint of? Brani
                    >znacky bozi bez trejdmarku do ust nadarmo? What harm this should make
                    >to
                    >whom? No one will tell you why even if you ask your clients. A legal
                    >thing, yes. I can almost hear American lawyers: 'We don't think you
                    >would need to use furcoats in Borneo but please keep wearing them,
                    >just
                    >in case a snow storm arrives.'
                    >
                    >As to stubborn refusals - it depends what is my goal. Whether to make
                    >the paying customer happy whatever the costs are, or to make the end
                    >user of my text happy. I go for the latter... and if the paying
                    >customer is reasonable and listen to me, s/he will be happy too. (And
                    >I
                    >am trying hard to keep the reasonable ones and avoid the rest.)
                    >
                    >Martin
                    >
                    >Dne 9.8.2012 21:19, Pilucha, Jiri napsal(a):
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Re> „it looks weird in a Czech sentence, especially when the word is
                    >> conjugated (it has an ending tacked onto it, which makes it sound
                    >> Czech, AND technically it's not the Trade Mark any more, Android is,
                    >> but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt they registered every possible variant
                    >in
                    >> all languages)... this is a cultural thing“
                    >>
                    >> I’d say it’s a legal thing rather than a cultural thing.
                    >> They don’t need to „register every possible variant in all
                    >languages“,
                    >> simply because (legally) you are not permitted to change the word in
                    >> any way. Conjugating the word is violation of the Trade Mark.
                    >Strictly
                    >> speaking you should never use „Androidem“ but always „operacnim
                    >> systemem Android“. It’s not about „what works better in Czech“ but
                    >> about multimillion lawsuits. Obviously, it is a pain in the *ss to
                    >do
                    >> this all the time, but here’s the key point: if your client releases
                    >> your translation wehere the word is changed and thus the trade mark
                    >> violated (especially in high visibility instances such as
                    >advertisng),
                    >> it’s THEM who’s running the risk of legal action against them.
                    >Highly
                    >> unlikely but not unheard of.
                    >>
                    >> That much for conjugating the TM-ed words. As for using TM on every
                    >> occurrence of the word, I agree it’s a lot more elegant to resolve
                    >it
                    >> by small print footnotes instead, and that’s exactly what you see
                    >most
                    >> of the time in the US too (i.e. it’s not a matter of „decent
                    >language
                    >> feeling“ of Czechs as Martin put it) but if the client insists on it
                    >I
                    >> can see no reason why stubbornly refuse it.
                    >>
                    >> Jiri
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                    ><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                    >> [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                    >> <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Martin Janda
                    >> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:17 AM
                    >> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                    ><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                    >> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> No, that's a preference of all native Czechs (or at least those with
                    >a
                    >> decent language feeling). That's something I keep struggling with
                    >every
                    >> day when facing my clients, typically US-based agency PMs. My
                    >favorite
                    >> reply to those requests is something like this:
                    >>
                    >> Imagine you have a Spanish client asking you to translate their
                    >fancy
                    >> Spanish ad into English. The client demands that you keep all
                    >inverted
                    >> questionmarks and exclamation marks (that they use at the beginning
                    >of
                    >> sentences) because 'If it works in Spanish, then it must work in
                    >English
                    >> too'. Would you be happy with that?
                    >>
                    >> Another M
                    >>
                    >> Dne 9.8.2012 9:49, Matej Klimes napsal(a):
                    >> >
                    >> > I did (let them have it if they want to), but I told them it's
                    >going to
                    >> > look silly in an ad headline... the reason I asked here was to
                    >confirm
                    >> > whether that's not just my theory/preference..
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> > M
                    >> > ------ Original Message ------
                    >> > From: "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...<mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>
                    >> <mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com><mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>
                    >> > <mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>>
                    >> > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                    >>
                    ><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                    >
                    >> <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                    >> > Sent: 8.8.2012 15:31:33
                    >> > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
                    >> > > If they want their little TM, let them have it
                    >> > >koho chleba jís, toho pisen zpivej
                    >> > >
                    >> > >Neres to :)
                    >> > >
                    >> > >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                    >>
                    ><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                    >
                    >> > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Matej Klimes"
                    >>
                    ><mklimes@...<mailto:mklimes@...<mailto:mklimes@...%3cmailto:mklimes@...>>>
                    >wrote:
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >> A client's client insists on using TM in superscript above the
                    >word
                    >> > >> Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is
                    >> > >> conjugated, i.e. it's an advert headline that says someting
                    >like
                    >> > >(made
                    >> > >> up example):
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >> Rozumim si s Androidem - where the ENG original was something
                    >like
                    >> > >'I
                    >> > >> am made for Android'
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >> (the adverts are for a consumer electronic device unrelated to
                    >> > >> Android/google, just using it and the bits in questions are
                    >> > >headlines,
                    >> > >> not body copies, or small print..)
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >> It wasn't there originally, but now the client's client (the
                    >> > >> manufacturer) came back saying there has to be a (TM) after
                    >every
                    >> > >> Android - makes sense (and looks/sounds fine) in English, but
                    >I'm
                    >> > >> trying to tell them that we don't normally use it in Czech in
                    >plain
                    >> > >> text (let alone in advertising copy/headlines), I guess the
                    >main
                    >> > >reason
                    >> > >> is that it's an English abbreviation and it looks weird in a
                    >Czech
                    >> > >> sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an
                    >ending
                    >> > >> tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically
                    >it's not
                    >> > >> the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I
                    >doubt
                    >> > >they
                    >> > >> registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is
                    >a
                    >> > >> cultural thing, we just don't do it in text or in copy -
                    >there'll be
                    >> > >a
                    >> > >> small print footnote saying that Coca Cola is registered TM of
                    >xxx
                    >> > >etc.
                    >> > >> (in Czech), but the copy itself - especially headlines - will
                    >not
                    >> > >have
                    >> > >> any TM in it in Czech adverts...
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >> Can you confirm (or not) this feeling/opinion? Both Czech and
                    >ENG
                    >> > >> speakers? Thoughts?
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >> Thanks
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >> Matej
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> >
                    >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Matej Klimes
                    On a related issue: Dneska uz se to micha, protoze vetsina fotaku zaroven nataci video, navic i poloprofesionalni digitalni zrcadlovky nataceji video tak
                    Message 9 of 23 , Aug 9, 2012
                      On a related issue:

                      Dneska uz se to micha, protoze vetsina fotaku zaroven nataci video,
                      navic i poloprofesionalni digitalni zrcadlovky nataceji video tak
                      kvalitne, ze je profesionalove pouzivaji jako video kamery... nicmene:

                      Ja si nemuzu pomoct a pokazde kdyz vidim, ze nekdo prelozil slovo
                      camera (a byl to fotak, kompakt) jako 'KAMERA', tak se mi zjezi vlasy
                      na hlave.. Jde zase o podobnou situaci - kratke reklamni slogany... on
                      je problem, ze oficialni slovo je 'fotoaparat', coz zni strasne
                      zastarale a skolometsky, takze uplne nejlepsi je se tomu nejak vyhnout,
                      ale kdyz uz to nejde, tak prece nemuzeme rict kamera, nebo jo? Dalsi
                      souvisejici problem je, ze fotak je muzskeho rodu a kamera zenskeho,
                      takze i kdyz se v nejakem sloganu to slovo primo nevyskytne, u toho
                      omezence (podle me) co si v halve rika 'kamera' jsou tam najednou
                      koncovky zenskeho rodu..

                      Jak rikam, dneska uz se to asi dost stira a mladi co maj odmalicka
                      telefony s pomalu lepsim fotakem nez jsem mel jako profesionalni
                      fotograf uz mozna slovo kamera vypusti z ust bez uzardeni, ale kdyz je
                      to na papire tak to podle me nejde, ono ani v hovoru snad nikdo nerekne
                      vezmi si kameru a vyfot to, nebo jo? Kdyz nekdo rekne kamera, tak to
                      povazuju za presmyk v hlave, protoze premyslel v anglictine, pokud to
                      nekdo napise, tak to povazuju za chybu..

                      No zkratka muj dalsi dotaz je, jestli mam pravdu, kdyz tvrdim, ze v CZ
                      musi byt (still) camera, tedy neco, co je primarne urceno na foceni, i
                      kdyz to umi i nejake to video, vzdycky FOTAK/fotoaparat a KAMERA je jen
                      a pouze video kamera, filmova kamera atd., tedy neco co je primarne
                      urceno na nataceni pohyblivych obrazku.. - nebo jestli jsem jen prilis
                      upjaty:)

                      M


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Martin Janda
                      Mateji, muzu dosvedcit, ze i muj starsi synek, studujici (filmovou) kameru na VS a pouzivajici k nataceni zrcadlovku Canon, rika stale fotaku fotak a kamere
                      Message 10 of 23 , Aug 10, 2012
                        Mateji,

                        muzu dosvedcit, ze i muj starsi synek, studujici (filmovou) kameru na VS
                        a pouzivajici k nataceni zrcadlovku Canon, rika stale fotaku fotak a
                        kamere kamera. Je mu 21, takze pripadna delici cara ocividne neni dana
                        vekem, ale tak leda ignorantstvim. Nekdy je to ale fakt otazka. Treba u
                        Canonu vsech rad je jejich fotakovstvi jasne geneticky dano, ale
                        prekladal jsem manualy ke kompaktnim krabickam za 6 tisic, ze kterych
                        trcel objektiv, umely tocit i fotit, a nevypadaly ani jako klasicky
                        fotak, ani jako kamera. A ted babo rad, jak to vlastne nazvat. Jasne,
                        lze se ponorit do manualu a zjistovat, ktera funkce prevlada, ale byla
                        to dost fuska a nazev jsem behem te prace asi 2x menil.

                        Ze je fotoaparat slovo pachnouci naftalinem a fotak zas nespisovne, to
                        je jina vec. Ale vyrazy jako fotit, fotka a fotak se pomalu vkradaji i
                        do beznych serioznich medii, takze treba casem zespisovni. Do te doby
                        bych zkusil klickovat a kde zni fotoaparat drevene, rikat - pokud to
                        pujde - treba pristroj?

                        Martin

                        Dne 10.8.2012 8:57, Matej Klimes napsal(a):
                        >
                        > On a related issue:
                        >
                        > Dneska uz se to micha, protoze vetsina fotaku zaroven nataci video,
                        > navic i poloprofesionalni digitalni zrcadlovky nataceji video tak
                        > kvalitne, ze je profesionalove pouzivaji jako video kamery... nicmene:
                        >
                        > Ja si nemuzu pomoct a pokazde kdyz vidim, ze nekdo prelozil slovo
                        > camera (a byl to fotak, kompakt) jako 'KAMERA', tak se mi zjezi vlasy
                        > na hlave.. Jde zase o podobnou situaci - kratke reklamni slogany... on
                        > je problem, ze oficialni slovo je 'fotoaparat', coz zni strasne
                        > zastarale a skolometsky, takze uplne nejlepsi je se tomu nejak vyhnout,
                        > ale kdyz uz to nejde, tak prece nemuzeme rict kamera, nebo jo? Dalsi
                        > souvisejici problem je, ze fotak je muzskeho rodu a kamera zenskeho,
                        > takze i kdyz se v nejakem sloganu to slovo primo nevyskytne, u toho
                        > omezence (podle me) co si v halve rika 'kamera' jsou tam najednou
                        > koncovky zenskeho rodu..
                        >
                        > Jak rikam, dneska uz se to asi dost stira a mladi co maj odmalicka
                        > telefony s pomalu lepsim fotakem nez jsem mel jako profesionalni
                        > fotograf uz mozna slovo kamera vypusti z ust bez uzardeni, ale kdyz je
                        > to na papire tak to podle me nejde, ono ani v hovoru snad nikdo nerekne
                        > vezmi si kameru a vyfot to, nebo jo? Kdyz nekdo rekne kamera, tak to
                        > povazuju za presmyk v hlave, protoze premyslel v anglictine, pokud to
                        > nekdo napise, tak to povazuju za chybu..
                        >
                        > No zkratka muj dalsi dotaz je, jestli mam pravdu, kdyz tvrdim, ze v CZ
                        > musi byt (still) camera, tedy neco, co je primarne urceno na foceni, i
                        > kdyz to umi i nejake to video, vzdycky FOTAK/fotoaparat a KAMERA je jen
                        > a pouze video kamera, filmova kamera atd., tedy neco co je primarne
                        > urceno na nataceni pohyblivych obrazku.. - nebo jestli jsem jen prilis
                        > upjaty:)
                        >
                        > M
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                      • Jan Culka
                        Ahoj Mateji, cítím to podobne jako Ty (asi uz jsem taky zastaralý skolomet), ale myslím, ze je treba prekládat (still) camera jako fotoaparát ve vsech
                        Message 11 of 23 , Aug 10, 2012
                          Ahoj Mateji,
                          cítím to podobne jako Ty (asi uz jsem taky zastaralý skolomet), ale myslím, ze je treba prekládat (still) camera jako fotoaparát ve vsech textech (nebo aspon tech oficiálnejsích), a v méne oficiálních mozná foták.
                          Videokamera, televizní kamera, filmová kamera zustávají pro záznam pohyblivého obrazu.
                          Ale treba se to casem taky prizpusobí anglosaskému stylu, jako v mnoha dalsích prípadech.
                          Honza


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Matej Klimes
                          To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 8:57 AM
                          Subject: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech



                          On a related issue:

                          Dneska uz se to micha, protoze vetsina fotaku zaroven nataci video,
                          navic i poloprofesionalni digitalni zrcadlovky nataceji video tak
                          kvalitne, ze je profesionalove pouzivaji jako video kamery... nicmene:

                          Ja si nemuzu pomoct a pokazde kdyz vidim, ze nekdo prelozil slovo
                          camera (a byl to fotak, kompakt) jako 'KAMERA', tak se mi zjezi vlasy
                          na hlave.. Jde zase o podobnou situaci - kratke reklamni slogany... on
                          je problem, ze oficialni slovo je 'fotoaparat', coz zni strasne
                          zastarale a skolometsky, takze uplne nejlepsi je se tomu nejak vyhnout,
                          ale kdyz uz to nejde, tak prece nemuzeme rict kamera, nebo jo? Dalsi
                          souvisejici problem je, ze fotak je muzskeho rodu a kamera zenskeho,
                          takze i kdyz se v nejakem sloganu to slovo primo nevyskytne, u toho
                          omezence (podle me) co si v halve rika 'kamera' jsou tam najednou
                          koncovky zenskeho rodu..

                          Jak rikam, dneska uz se to asi dost stira a mladi co maj odmalicka
                          telefony s pomalu lepsim fotakem nez jsem mel jako profesionalni
                          fotograf uz mozna slovo kamera vypusti z ust bez uzardeni, ale kdyz je
                          to na papire tak to podle me nejde, ono ani v hovoru snad nikdo nerekne
                          vezmi si kameru a vyfot to, nebo jo? Kdyz nekdo rekne kamera, tak to
                          povazuju za presmyk v hlave, protoze premyslel v anglictine, pokud to
                          nekdo napise, tak to povazuju za chybu..

                          No zkratka muj dalsi dotaz je, jestli mam pravdu, kdyz tvrdim, ze v CZ
                          musi byt (still) camera, tedy neco, co je primarne urceno na foceni, i
                          kdyz to umi i nejake to video, vzdycky FOTAK/fotoaparat a KAMERA je jen
                          a pouze video kamera, filmova kamera atd., tedy neco co je primarne
                          urceno na nataceni pohyblivych obrazku.. - nebo jestli jsem jen prilis
                          upjaty:)

                          M

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Jirka Bolech
                          Ahoj Mateji, ja zastavam stejny postoj, jaky navrhujes, ale nerikal bych tomu mit pravdu nebo byt upjaty , spise to muze predstavovat konzervativni
                          Message 12 of 23 , Aug 10, 2012
                            Ahoj Mateji,

                            ja zastavam stejny postoj, jaky navrhujes, ale nerikal bych tomu "mit
                            pravdu" nebo "byt upjaty", spise to muze predstavovat "konzervativni"
                            pristup. Vyvoj cestiny se zda smerovat k urcite konvergenci s
                            anglictinou i za cenu nepresnosti i vyslovenych nesmyslu, rozhodne na
                            neformalni urovni, ktera samozrejme kvantitativne naprosto prevlada,
                            treba i ve sdelovacich prostredcich (rozumnej "mediich"). Rekl bych, ze
                            statni system formalniho vzdelavani vykazuje o rad nizsi ucinnost vlivu
                            na vyvoj jazyka nez konzumni zivotni styl. Asi to je jeden z projevu
                            relativne liberalnich politickych pomeru.

                            Take jsem v odbornem textu (geodetika) narazil na vyraz "(fotograficka)
                            komora", ale ten evidentne nebude vhodny pro vetsinu prekladu slova
                            "camera"...

                            Jirka Bolech


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                          • Matej Klimes
                            Jasne, dik.. klickuju co muzu a v posledni dobe - do tech sloganu - FOTAK klidne davam, protoze to ma byt takove osobni a cerstve - ty slogany jsou vsechny v
                            Message 13 of 23 , Aug 10, 2012
                              Jasne, dik..

                              klickuju co muzu a v posledni dobe - do tech sloganu - FOTAK klidne
                              davam, protoze to ma byt takove osobni a cerstve - ty slogany jsou
                              vsechny v ich-forme, jako ze to ten fotak rika, a hovorove vyrazy se
                              tam pouzivaji i jinde... pristroj nebo zarizeni by tam znely moc
                              kozene, kamera to rozhodne neni a fotoaparat z pusy v hovoru nikdo
                              nevypusti..

                              Re krabicky co umi oboji, tezko rict, ale ja se jeste nesetkal s necim,
                              cemu bych mohl v CZ rikat KAMERA (co by bylo primarne urceno na
                              nataceni pohyblivych obrazku) a co by zaroven umelo fotit jednotlive
                              snimky a melo nejake ty funkce fotaku, ktere nesouvisi s natacenim
                              videa... kdyz to umi oboji, tak je to podle me furt fotak, i kdyz je
                              pravda, ze ta hranice bude cim dal tim rozmazanejsi.. v mobilech se
                              tomu porad rika fotak - i te aplikaci - i kdyz to stejne dobre umi
                              natacet video a prepina se to jednim tlacitkem (a je to velke jak
                              tabletka aspirinu - ted jsem menil praskly display na svem Googlephonu
                              a nestacil jsem se divit..)

                              M
                              ------ Original Message ------
                              From: "Martin Janda" <mjanda@...>
                              To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: 10.8.2012 9:10:04
                              Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                              >Mateji,
                              >
                              >muzu dosvedcit, ze i muj starsi synek, studujici (filmovou) kameru na VS
                              >a pouzivajici k nataceni zrcadlovku Canon, rika stale fotaku fotak a
                              >kamere kamera. Je mu 21, takze pripadna delici cara ocividne neni dana
                              >vekem, ale tak leda ignorantstvim. Nekdy je to ale fakt otazka. Treba u
                              >Canonu vsech rad je jejich fotakovstvi jasne geneticky dano, ale
                              >prekladal jsem manualy ke kompaktnim krabickam za 6 tisic, ze kterych
                              >trcel objektiv, umely tocit i fotit, a nevypadaly ani jako klasicky
                              >fotak, ani jako kamera. A ted babo rad, jak to vlastne nazvat. Jasne,
                              >lze se ponorit do manualu a zjistovat, ktera funkce prevlada, ale byla
                              >to dost fuska a nazev jsem behem te prace asi 2x menil.
                              >
                              >Ze je fotoaparat slovo pachnouci naftalinem a fotak zas nespisovne, to
                              >je jina vec. Ale vyrazy jako fotit, fotka a fotak se pomalu vkradaji i
                              >do beznych serioznich medii, takze treba casem zespisovni. Do te doby
                              >bych zkusil klickovat a kde zni fotoaparat drevene, rikat - pokud to
                              >pujde - treba pristroj?
                              >
                              >Martin
                              >
                              >Dne 10.8.2012 8:57, Matej Klimes napsal(a):
                              >
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>On a related issue:
                              >>
                              >>Dneska uz se to micha, protoze vetsina fotaku zaroven nataci video,
                              >>navic i poloprofesionalni digitalni zrcadlovky nataceji video tak
                              >>kvalitne, ze je profesionalove pouzivaji jako video kamery... nicmene:
                              >>
                              >>Ja si nemuzu pomoct a pokazde kdyz vidim, ze nekdo prelozil slovo
                              >>camera (a byl to fotak, kompakt) jako 'KAMERA', tak se mi zjezi vlasy
                              >>na hlave.. Jde zase o podobnou situaci - kratke reklamni slogany... on
                              >>je problem, ze oficialni slovo je 'fotoaparat', coz zni strasne
                              >>zastarale a skolometsky, takze uplne nejlepsi je se tomu nejak vyhnout,
                              >>ale kdyz uz to nejde, tak prece nemuzeme rict kamera, nebo jo? Dalsi
                              >>souvisejici problem je, ze fotak je muzskeho rodu a kamera zenskeho,
                              >>takze i kdyz se v nejakem sloganu to slovo primo nevyskytne, u toho
                              >>omezence (podle me) co si v halve rika 'kamera' jsou tam najednou
                              >>koncovky zenskeho rodu..
                              >>
                              >>Jak rikam, dneska uz se to asi dost stira a mladi co maj odmalicka
                              >>telefony s pomalu lepsim fotakem nez jsem mel jako profesionalni
                              >>fotograf uz mozna slovo kamera vypusti z ust bez uzardeni, ale kdyz je
                              >>to na papire tak to podle me nejde, ono ani v hovoru snad nikdo nerekne
                              >>vezmi si kameru a vyfot to, nebo jo? Kdyz nekdo rekne kamera, tak to
                              >>povazuju za presmyk v hlave, protoze premyslel v anglictine, pokud to
                              >>nekdo napise, tak to povazuju za chybu..
                              >>
                              >>No zkratka muj dalsi dotaz je, jestli mam pravdu, kdyz tvrdim, ze v CZ
                              >>musi byt (still) camera, tedy neco, co je primarne urceno na foceni, i
                              >>kdyz to umi i nejake to video, vzdycky FOTAK/fotoaparat a KAMERA je jen
                              >>a pouze video kamera, filmova kamera atd., tedy neco co je primarne
                              >>urceno na nataceni pohyblivych obrazku.. - nebo jestli jsem jen prilis
                              >>upjaty:)
                              >>
                              >>M
                              >>
                              >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                            • Matej Klimes
                              No ono problem je, ze anglosasky styl neznamena, ze by tomu rikali stejne nebo ze by to misili, jen pro to pouzivaji stejne slovo, ale oficialni nazev fotaku
                              Message 14 of 23 , Aug 10, 2012
                                No ono problem je, ze anglosasky styl neznamena, ze by tomu rikali
                                stejne nebo ze by to misili, jen pro to pouzivaji stejne slovo, ale
                                oficialni nazev fotaku (ktery si kazdy tak nejak predstavi v have) je
                                still camera... i kdyz pro oboji pouzivaji stejne slovo, ten rozdil tam
                                je, zduraznuje se spise u te kamery kdyz se chce nekdo ujistit, ze vime
                                o cem mluvi..

                                Je to tim, ze si to slovo vzali z Camery Obscury, coz byl princip
                                prvnich fotaku... a protoze jsou zvykli na to, hadat vse z kontextu,
                                tak se pozdeji nenamahali vytvorit jine slovo kdyz bratia Lumierovci ty
                                fotky rozpohybovali.... to u nas kdybychom fotaku od zacatku rikali
                                kamera tak kameram dneska rikame 'pohyblivoobrazkovace' :)

                                M
                                ------ Original Message ------
                                From: "Jan Culka" <culka@...>
                                To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: 10.8.2012 9:15:58
                                Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                > Ahoj Mateji,
                                >cítím to podobne jako Ty (asi uz jsem taky zastaralý skolomet), ale
                                >myslím, ze je treba prekládat (still) camera jako fotoaparát ve vsech
                                >textech (nebo aspon tech oficiálnejsích), a v méne oficiálních mozná
                                >foták.
                                >Videokamera, televizní kamera, filmová kamera zustávají pro záznam
                                >pohyblivého obrazu.
                                >Ale treba se to casem taky prizpusobí anglosaskému stylu, jako v mnoha
                                >dalsích prípadech.
                                >Honza
                                >
                                >----- Original Message -----
                                >From: Matej Klimes
                                >To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                >Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 8:57 AM
                                >Subject: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                >
                                >On a related issue:
                                >
                                >Dneska uz se to micha, protoze vetsina fotaku zaroven nataci video,
                                >navic i poloprofesionalni digitalni zrcadlovky nataceji video tak
                                >kvalitne, ze je profesionalove pouzivaji jako video kamery... nicmene:
                                >
                                >Ja si nemuzu pomoct a pokazde kdyz vidim, ze nekdo prelozil slovo
                                >camera (a byl to fotak, kompakt) jako 'KAMERA', tak se mi zjezi vlasy
                                >na hlave.. Jde zase o podobnou situaci - kratke reklamni slogany... on
                                >je problem, ze oficialni slovo je 'fotoaparat', coz zni strasne
                                >zastarale a skolometsky, takze uplne nejlepsi je se tomu nejak
                                >vyhnout,
                                >ale kdyz uz to nejde, tak prece nemuzeme rict kamera, nebo jo? Dalsi
                                >souvisejici problem je, ze fotak je muzskeho rodu a kamera zenskeho,
                                >takze i kdyz se v nejakem sloganu to slovo primo nevyskytne, u toho
                                >omezence (podle me) co si v halve rika 'kamera' jsou tam najednou
                                >koncovky zenskeho rodu..
                                >
                                >Jak rikam, dneska uz se to asi dost stira a mladi co maj odmalicka
                                >telefony s pomalu lepsim fotakem nez jsem mel jako profesionalni
                                >fotograf uz mozna slovo kamera vypusti z ust bez uzardeni, ale kdyz je
                                >to na papire tak to podle me nejde, ono ani v hovoru snad nikdo
                                >nerekne
                                >vezmi si kameru a vyfot to, nebo jo? Kdyz nekdo rekne kamera, tak to
                                >povazuju za presmyk v hlave, protoze premyslel v anglictine, pokud to
                                >nekdo napise, tak to povazuju za chybu..
                                >
                                >No zkratka muj dalsi dotaz je, jestli mam pravdu, kdyz tvrdim, ze v CZ
                                >musi byt (still) camera, tedy neco, co je primarne urceno na foceni, i
                                >kdyz to umi i nejake to video, vzdycky FOTAK/fotoaparat a KAMERA je
                                >jen
                                >a pouze video kamera, filmova kamera atd., tedy neco co je primarne
                                >urceno na nataceni pohyblivych obrazku.. - nebo jestli jsem jen prilis
                                >upjaty:)
                                >
                                >M
                                >
                                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Pilucha, Jiri
                                Mateji, ja myslel, ze kamere rikaji camcorder, anebo to ma nejaky uzsi vyznam? J. From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                Message 15 of 23 , Aug 10, 2012
                                  Mateji, ja myslel, ze kamere rikaji camcorder, anebo to ma nejaky uzsi vyznam?
                                  J.

                                  From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matej Klimes
                                  Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:30 AM
                                  To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re[2]: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech



                                  No ono problem je, ze anglosasky styl neznamena, ze by tomu rikali
                                  stejne nebo ze by to misili, jen pro to pouzivaji stejne slovo, ale
                                  oficialni nazev fotaku (ktery si kazdy tak nejak predstavi v have) je
                                  still camera... i kdyz pro oboji pouzivaji stejne slovo, ten rozdil tam
                                  je, zduraznuje se spise u te kamery kdyz se chce nekdo ujistit, ze vime
                                  o cem mluvi..

                                  Je to tim, ze si to slovo vzali z Camery Obscury, coz byl princip
                                  prvnich fotaku... a protoze jsou zvykli na to, hadat vse z kontextu,
                                  tak se pozdeji nenamahali vytvorit jine slovo kdyz bratia Lumierovci ty
                                  fotky rozpohybovali.... to u nas kdybychom fotaku od zacatku rikali
                                  kamera tak kameram dneska rikame 'pohyblivoobrazkovace' :)

                                  M
                                  ------ Original Message ------
                                  From: "Jan Culka" <culka@...<mailto:culka%40marconi.ttc.cz>>
                                  To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: 10.8.2012 9:15:58
                                  Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                  > Ahoj Mateji,
                                  >cítím to podobne jako Ty (asi uz jsem taky zastaralý skolomet), ale
                                  >myslím, ze je treba prekládat (still) camera jako fotoaparát ve vsech
                                  >textech (nebo aspon tech oficiálnejsích), a v méne oficiálních mozná
                                  >foták.
                                  >Videokamera, televizní kamera, filmová kamera zustávají pro záznam
                                  >pohyblivého obrazu.
                                  >Ale treba se to casem taky prizpusobí anglosaskému stylu, jako v mnoha
                                  >dalsích prípadech.
                                  >Honza
                                  >
                                  >----- Original Message -----
                                  >From: Matej Klimes
                                  >To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  >Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 8:57 AM
                                  >Subject: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                  >
                                  >On a related issue:
                                  >
                                  >Dneska uz se to micha, protoze vetsina fotaku zaroven nataci video,
                                  >navic i poloprofesionalni digitalni zrcadlovky nataceji video tak
                                  >kvalitne, ze je profesionalove pouzivaji jako video kamery... nicmene:
                                  >
                                  >Ja si nemuzu pomoct a pokazde kdyz vidim, ze nekdo prelozil slovo
                                  >camera (a byl to fotak, kompakt) jako 'KAMERA', tak se mi zjezi vlasy
                                  >na hlave.. Jde zase o podobnou situaci - kratke reklamni slogany... on
                                  >je problem, ze oficialni slovo je 'fotoaparat', coz zni strasne
                                  >zastarale a skolometsky, takze uplne nejlepsi je se tomu nejak
                                  >vyhnout,
                                  >ale kdyz uz to nejde, tak prece nemuzeme rict kamera, nebo jo? Dalsi
                                  >souvisejici problem je, ze fotak je muzskeho rodu a kamera zenskeho,
                                  >takze i kdyz se v nejakem sloganu to slovo primo nevyskytne, u toho
                                  >omezence (podle me) co si v halve rika 'kamera' jsou tam najednou
                                  >koncovky zenskeho rodu..
                                  >
                                  >Jak rikam, dneska uz se to asi dost stira a mladi co maj odmalicka
                                  >telefony s pomalu lepsim fotakem nez jsem mel jako profesionalni
                                  >fotograf uz mozna slovo kamera vypusti z ust bez uzardeni, ale kdyz je
                                  >to na papire tak to podle me nejde, ono ani v hovoru snad nikdo
                                  >nerekne
                                  >vezmi si kameru a vyfot to, nebo jo? Kdyz nekdo rekne kamera, tak to
                                  >povazuju za presmyk v hlave, protoze premyslel v anglictine, pokud to
                                  >nekdo napise, tak to povazuju za chybu..
                                  >
                                  >No zkratka muj dalsi dotaz je, jestli mam pravdu, kdyz tvrdim, ze v CZ
                                  >musi byt (still) camera, tedy neco, co je primarne urceno na foceni, i
                                  >kdyz to umi i nejake to video, vzdycky FOTAK/fotoaparat a KAMERA je
                                  >jen
                                  >a pouze video kamera, filmova kamera atd., tedy neco co je primarne
                                  >urceno na nataceni pohyblivych obrazku.. - nebo jestli jsem jen prilis
                                  >upjaty:)
                                  >
                                  >M
                                  >
                                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Matej Klimes
                                  Jo, to je pravda, video kamera je camcorder, jako ze nahrava, filmova ne, ale v normalnim hovoru - a s dnesnimi mini krabickami co maji SD karty misto kazet -
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Aug 11, 2012
                                    Jo, to je pravda, video kamera je camcorder, jako ze nahrava, filmova
                                    ne, ale v normalnim hovoru - a s dnesnimi mini krabickami co maji SD
                                    karty misto kazet - se to myslim uz tak nepouziva

                                    Tohle je proste jen camera:

                                    http://gopro.com/hd-hero-cameras/

                                    ... ale tohle zase camcorder, takze kdyz to vypada jako byvala video
                                    kamera s kazetou, tak se ten nazev asi drzi..

                                    http://www.gtmstores.com/i-7806136-panasonic-hd-camcorder-hdc-sd90.html

                                    ... ale ja nechtel anglosasum mluvit do toho jak cemu rikaji, jen se
                                    ujistit ze muj problem se slovem kamera pro fotak neni jen muj :)

                                    M


                                    ----- Original Message ------
                                    From: "Pilucha, Jiri" <jiri.pilucha@...>
                                    To: "Czechlist@yahoogroups.com" <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: 11.8.2012 2:30:25
                                    Subject: RE: Re[2]: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                    > Mateji, ja myslel, ze kamere rikaji camcorder, anebo to ma nejaky
                                    >uzsi vyznam?
                                    >J.
                                    >
                                    >From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matej Klimes
                                    >Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:30 AM
                                    >To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    >Subject: Re[2]: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >No ono problem je, ze anglosasky styl neznamena, ze by tomu rikali
                                    >stejne nebo ze by to misili, jen pro to pouzivaji stejne slovo, ale
                                    >oficialni nazev fotaku (ktery si kazdy tak nejak predstavi v have) je
                                    >still camera... i kdyz pro oboji pouzivaji stejne slovo, ten rozdil
                                    >tam
                                    >je, zduraznuje se spise u te kamery kdyz se chce nekdo ujistit, ze
                                    >vime
                                    >o cem mluvi..
                                    >
                                    >Je to tim, ze si to slovo vzali z Camery Obscury, coz byl princip
                                    >prvnich fotaku... a protoze jsou zvykli na to, hadat vse z kontextu,
                                    >tak se pozdeji nenamahali vytvorit jine slovo kdyz bratia Lumierovci
                                    >ty
                                    >fotky rozpohybovali.... to u nas kdybychom fotaku od zacatku rikali
                                    >kamera tak kameram dneska rikame 'pohyblivoobrazkovace' :)
                                    >
                                    >M
                                    >------ Original Message ------
                                    >From: "Jan Culka" <culka@...<mailto:culka%40marconi.ttc.cz>>
                                    >To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    >Sent: 10.8.2012 9:15:58
                                    >Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                    >> Ahoj Mateji,
                                    >>cítím to podobne jako Ty (asi uz jsem taky zastaralý skolomet), ale
                                    >>myslím, ze je treba prekládat (still) camera jako fotoaparát ve vsech
                                    >>textech (nebo aspon tech oficiálnejsích), a v méne oficiálních mozná
                                    >>foták.
                                    >>Videokamera, televizní kamera, filmová kamera zustávají pro záznam
                                    >>pohyblivého obrazu.
                                    >>Ale treba se to casem taky prizpusobí anglosaskému stylu, jako v
                                    >mnoha
                                    >>dalsích prípadech.
                                    >>Honza
                                    >>
                                    >>----- Original Message -----
                                    >>From: Matej Klimes
                                    >>To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    >>Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 8:57 AM
                                    >>Subject: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                    >>
                                    >>On a related issue:
                                    >>
                                    >>Dneska uz se to micha, protoze vetsina fotaku zaroven nataci video,
                                    >>navic i poloprofesionalni digitalni zrcadlovky nataceji video tak
                                    >>kvalitne, ze je profesionalove pouzivaji jako video kamery...
                                    >nicmene:
                                    >>
                                    >>Ja si nemuzu pomoct a pokazde kdyz vidim, ze nekdo prelozil slovo
                                    >>camera (a byl to fotak, kompakt) jako 'KAMERA', tak se mi zjezi vlasy
                                    >>na hlave.. Jde zase o podobnou situaci - kratke reklamni slogany...
                                    >on
                                    >>je problem, ze oficialni slovo je 'fotoaparat', coz zni strasne
                                    >>zastarale a skolometsky, takze uplne nejlepsi je se tomu nejak
                                    >>vyhnout,
                                    >>ale kdyz uz to nejde, tak prece nemuzeme rict kamera, nebo jo? Dalsi
                                    >>souvisejici problem je, ze fotak je muzskeho rodu a kamera zenskeho,
                                    >>takze i kdyz se v nejakem sloganu to slovo primo nevyskytne, u toho
                                    >>omezence (podle me) co si v halve rika 'kamera' jsou tam najednou
                                    >>koncovky zenskeho rodu..
                                    >>
                                    >>Jak rikam, dneska uz se to asi dost stira a mladi co maj odmalicka
                                    >>telefony s pomalu lepsim fotakem nez jsem mel jako profesionalni
                                    >>fotograf uz mozna slovo kamera vypusti z ust bez uzardeni, ale kdyz
                                    >je
                                    >>to na papire tak to podle me nejde, ono ani v hovoru snad nikdo
                                    >>nerekne
                                    >>vezmi si kameru a vyfot to, nebo jo? Kdyz nekdo rekne kamera, tak to
                                    >>povazuju za presmyk v hlave, protoze premyslel v anglictine, pokud to
                                    >>nekdo napise, tak to povazuju za chybu..
                                    >>
                                    >>No zkratka muj dalsi dotaz je, jestli mam pravdu, kdyz tvrdim, ze v
                                    >CZ
                                    >>musi byt (still) camera, tedy neco, co je primarne urceno na foceni,
                                    >i
                                    >>kdyz to umi i nejake to video, vzdycky FOTAK/fotoaparat a KAMERA je
                                    >>jen
                                    >>a pouze video kamera, filmova kamera atd., tedy neco co je primarne
                                    >>urceno na nataceni pohyblivych obrazku.. - nebo jestli jsem jen
                                    >prilis
                                    >>upjaty:)
                                    >>
                                    >>M
                                    >>
                                    >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >>
                                    >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >
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                                    >
                                    >
                                    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • vtalacko@ageng.pair.com
                                    We call it a video camera, although some people call it a camcorder. They re the same thing, as far as I know - it s just a matter of preference. Camcorder is
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Aug 11, 2012
                                      We call it a video camera, although some people call it a camcorder.
                                      They're the same thing, as far as I know - it's just a matter of
                                      preference. Camcorder is probably used more when selling them, but it
                                      sounds a bit artificial - people (as far as I know) are more likely to say
                                      day-to-day "should I take the video camera?" rather than "should I take
                                      the camcorder?"

                                      Valerie

                                      > Mateji, ja myslel, ze kamere rikaji camcorder, anebo to ma nejaky uzsi
                                      > vyznam?
                                      > J.
                                      >
                                      > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
                                      > Behalf Of Matej Klimes
                                      > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:30 AM
                                      > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: Re[2]: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > No ono problem je, ze anglosasky styl neznamena, ze by tomu rikali
                                      > stejne nebo ze by to misili, jen pro to pouzivaji stejne slovo, ale
                                      > oficialni nazev fotaku (ktery si kazdy tak nejak predstavi v have) je
                                      > still camera... i kdyz pro oboji pouzivaji stejne slovo, ten rozdil tam
                                      > je, zduraznuje se spise u te kamery kdyz se chce nekdo ujistit, ze vime
                                      > o cem mluvi..
                                      >
                                      > Je to tim, ze si to slovo vzali z Camery Obscury, coz byl princip
                                      > prvnich fotaku... a protoze jsou zvykli na to, hadat vse z kontextu,
                                      > tak se pozdeji nenamahali vytvorit jine slovo kdyz bratia Lumierovci ty
                                      > fotky rozpohybovali.... to u nas kdybychom fotaku od zacatku rikali
                                      > kamera tak kameram dneska rikame 'pohyblivoobrazkovace' :)
                                      >
                                      > M
                                      > ------ Original Message ------
                                      > From: "Jan Culka" <culka@...<mailto:culka%40marconi.ttc.cz>>
                                      > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Sent: 10.8.2012 9:15:58
                                      > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                      >> Ahoj Mateji,
                                      >>cítím to podobne jako Ty (asi uz jsem taky zastaralý skolomet), ale
                                      >>myslím, ze je treba prekládat (still) camera jako fotoaparát ve vsech
                                      >>textech (nebo aspon tech oficiálnejsích), a v méne oficiálních mozná
                                      >>foták.
                                      >>Videokamera, televizní kamera, filmová kamera zustávají pro záznam
                                      >>pohyblivého obrazu.
                                      >>Ale treba se to casem taky prizpusobí anglosaskému stylu, jako v mnoha
                                      >>dalsích prípadech.
                                      >>Honza
                                      >>
                                      >>----- Original Message -----
                                      >>From: Matej Klimes
                                      >>To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      >>Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 8:57 AM
                                      >>Subject: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                      >>
                                      >>On a related issue:
                                      >>
                                      >>Dneska uz se to micha, protoze vetsina fotaku zaroven nataci video,
                                      >>navic i poloprofesionalni digitalni zrcadlovky nataceji video tak
                                      >>kvalitne, ze je profesionalove pouzivaji jako video kamery... nicmene:
                                      >>
                                      >>Ja si nemuzu pomoct a pokazde kdyz vidim, ze nekdo prelozil slovo
                                      >>camera (a byl to fotak, kompakt) jako 'KAMERA', tak se mi zjezi vlasy
                                      >>na hlave.. Jde zase o podobnou situaci - kratke reklamni slogany... on
                                      >>je problem, ze oficialni slovo je 'fotoaparat', coz zni strasne
                                      >>zastarale a skolometsky, takze uplne nejlepsi je se tomu nejak
                                      >>vyhnout,
                                      >>ale kdyz uz to nejde, tak prece nemuzeme rict kamera, nebo jo? Dalsi
                                      >>souvisejici problem je, ze fotak je muzskeho rodu a kamera zenskeho,
                                      >>takze i kdyz se v nejakem sloganu to slovo primo nevyskytne, u toho
                                      >>omezence (podle me) co si v halve rika 'kamera' jsou tam najednou
                                      >>koncovky zenskeho rodu..
                                      >>
                                      >>Jak rikam, dneska uz se to asi dost stira a mladi co maj odmalicka
                                      >>telefony s pomalu lepsim fotakem nez jsem mel jako profesionalni
                                      >>fotograf uz mozna slovo kamera vypusti z ust bez uzardeni, ale kdyz je
                                      >>to na papire tak to podle me nejde, ono ani v hovoru snad nikdo
                                      >>nerekne
                                      >>vezmi si kameru a vyfot to, nebo jo? Kdyz nekdo rekne kamera, tak to
                                      >>povazuju za presmyk v hlave, protoze premyslel v anglictine, pokud to
                                      >>nekdo napise, tak to povazuju za chybu..
                                      >>
                                      >>No zkratka muj dalsi dotaz je, jestli mam pravdu, kdyz tvrdim, ze v CZ
                                      >>musi byt (still) camera, tedy neco, co je primarne urceno na foceni, i
                                      >>kdyz to umi i nejake to video, vzdycky FOTAK/fotoaparat a KAMERA je
                                      >>jen
                                      >>a pouze video kamera, filmova kamera atd., tedy neco co je primarne
                                      >>urceno na nataceni pohyblivych obrazku.. - nebo jestli jsem jen prilis
                                      >>upjaty:)
                                      >>
                                      >>M
                                      >>
                                      >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >>
                                      >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • James Kirchner
                                      This is late, but now that we re all back online, I ll weigh in on this one. As for English (American) usage of the TM symbol, when I worked in advertising --
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Aug 30, 2012
                                        This is late, but now that we're all back online, I'll weigh in on this one.

                                        As for English (American) usage of the TM symbol, when I worked in advertising -- and I worked for what, at the time, was "the world's largest advertising agency" -- we did not put the TM symbol after every incidence of the brand name.

                                        According to our legal department (and subsequent departments I worked with at other agencies), the TM symbol did not have to appear after the trademark every time, but just often enough that it's clear that it's a registered trademark.

                                        In practice, this meant that we put the TM symbol (or R symbol, or SM symbol) after the trademark the first time it appeared on each page, and left it off the rest of the time.

                                        We virtually never put the TM symbol after the trademark every time it appeared -- only if we had a nutty client who insisted on it, which was rare.

                                        Jamie

                                        On Aug 8, 2012, at 9:05 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:

                                        > A client's client insists on using TM in superscript above the word
                                        > Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is
                                        > conjugated, i.e. it's an advert headline that says someting like (made
                                        > up example):
                                        >
                                        > Rozumim si s Androidem - where the ENG original was something like 'I
                                        > am made for Android'
                                        >
                                        > (the adverts are for a consumer electronic device unrelated to
                                        > Android/google, just using it and the bits in questions are headlines,
                                        > not body copies, or small print..)
                                        >
                                        > It wasn't there originally, but now the client's client (the
                                        > manufacturer) came back saying there has to be a (TM) after every
                                        > Android - makes sense (and looks/sounds fine) in English, but I'm
                                        > trying to tell them that we don't normally use it in Czech in plain
                                        > text (let alone in advertising copy/headlines), I guess the main reason
                                        > is that it's an English abbreviation and it looks weird in a Czech
                                        > sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending
                                        > tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically it's not
                                        > the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt they
                                        > registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is a
                                        > cultural thing, we just don't do it in text or in copy - there'll be a
                                        > small print footnote saying that Coca Cola is registered TM of xxx etc.
                                        > (in Czech), but the copy itself - especially headlines - will not have
                                        > any TM in it in Czech adverts...
                                        >
                                        > Can you confirm (or not) this feeling/opinion? Both Czech and ENG
                                        > speakers? Thoughts?
                                        >
                                        > Thanks
                                        >
                                        > Matej
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > _______________________________________________
                                        > Czechlist mailing list
                                        > Czechlist@...
                                        > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


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                                        Czechlist@...
                                        http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                      • Pilucha, Jiri
                                        Exactly! By sheer coincidence I ve just come across the following internal instruction issued by a US-based Corporation (XY) to its Marketing XY trademarks
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Aug 30, 2012
                                          Exactly! By sheer coincidence I've just come across the following internal instruction issued by a US-based Corporation (XY) to its Marketing

                                          "XY trademarks and service marks should be identified and distinguished in marketing material copy by using either a (R) or TM after XY trademark's first reference in headlines and body text. Subsequent references do not need to include the (R) or TM after the trademark name."


                                          From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Kirchner
                                          Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 2:12 PM
                                          To: czechlist@...
                                          Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Use of the TM symbol in Czech



                                          This is late, but now that we're all back online, I'll weigh in on this one.

                                          As for English (American) usage of the TM symbol, when I worked in advertising -- and I worked for what, at the time, was "the world's largest advertising agency" -- we did not put the TM symbol after every incidence of the brand name.

                                          According to our legal department (and subsequent departments I worked with at other agencies), the TM symbol did not have to appear after the trademark every time, but just often enough that it's clear that it's a registered trademark.

                                          In practice, this meant that we put the TM symbol (or R symbol, or SM symbol) after the trademark the first time it appeared on each page, and left it off the rest of the time.

                                          We virtually never put the TM symbol after the trademark every time it appeared -- only if we had a nutty client who insisted on it, which was rare.

                                          Jamie

                                          On Aug 8, 2012, at 9:05 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:

                                          > A client's client insists on using TM in superscript above the word
                                          > Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is
                                          > conjugated, i.e. it's an advert headline that says someting like (made
                                          > up example):
                                          >
                                          > Rozumim si s Androidem - where the ENG original was something like 'I
                                          > am made for Android'
                                          >
                                          > (the adverts are for a consumer electronic device unrelated to
                                          > Android/google, just using it and the bits in questions are headlines,
                                          > not body copies, or small print..)
                                          >
                                          > It wasn't there originally, but now the client's client (the
                                          > manufacturer) came back saying there has to be a (TM) after every
                                          > Android - makes sense (and looks/sounds fine) in English, but I'm
                                          > trying to tell them that we don't normally use it in Czech in plain
                                          > text (let alone in advertising copy/headlines), I guess the main reason
                                          > is that it's an English abbreviation and it looks weird in a Czech
                                          > sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending
                                          > tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically it's not
                                          > the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt they
                                          > registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is a
                                          > cultural thing, we just don't do it in text or in copy - there'll be a
                                          > small print footnote saying that Coca Cola is registered TM of xxx etc.
                                          > (in Czech), but the copy itself - especially headlines - will not have
                                          > any TM in it in Czech adverts...
                                          >
                                          > Can you confirm (or not) this feeling/opinion? Both Czech and ENG
                                          > speakers? Thoughts?
                                          >
                                          > Thanks
                                          >
                                          > Matej
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > _______________________________________________
                                          > Czechlist mailing list
                                          > Czechlist@...<mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
                                          > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist

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                                          Czechlist@...<mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
                                          http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist



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