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Re: [Czechlist] Ben Alí nebo bin Alí

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  • Jan Culka
    Ahoj, nejsem arabista, ale pozoroal jsem, že přepisy arabštiny (a třeba také čínštiny nebo albánštiny) se v češtině dost výrazně liší, a
    Message 1 of 23 , Aug 8, 2012
      Ahoj,
      nejsem arabista, ale pozoroal jsem, že přepisy arabštiny (a třeba také
      čínštiny nebo albánštiny) se v češtině dost výrazně liší, a těžko říct,
      který z nich je špatně. V originále mohou některé hlásky tvořit zvukový
      přechod mezi našimi hláskami, takže oba přepisy (ben i bin) jsou vlastně
      špatně (a nebo dobře, ale oba nepřesně).
      Pokud jde o jedno slovo, zvolil bych kteroukoliv variantu. Pokud by jich
      mělo být víc různých, chtělo by to asi nějakou učebnici nebo znalce jazyka,
      aby ta transkripce byla aspoň systematicky ujetá jedním směrem, ne každé
      slovo jinak.
      Honza

      Jestli to pomůže, bývalý alžírský předseda vlády Ahmed Ben Bella se do
      češtiny nikdy nepřepisoval s Bin, vždy s Ben.




      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Mgr. Iveta Pecinkova - Preklady&tlumoceni" <preklady@...>
      To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 2:00 PM
      Subject: [Czechlist] Ben Alí nebo bin Alí


      Zdravim,

      je tu nekdo, kdo mi dokaze fundovane rict, jestli prepis byvaleho tuniského
      prezidenta je spravne cesky Ben Ali (dlouhe "i") nebo bin Ali nebo uplne
      jinak. Jazykova poradna me v zasade odkazala na Wikipedii a tam je oboje.
      Ale jsem zvykla Wikipedii neverit uplne vsechno, takze pokud to někdo
      spolehlive vi, budu rada za odpoved. Dost to specha.



      Predem diky

      Iveta





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      ------------------------------------






      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • Matej Klimes
      Taky nejsem arabista a netusim, IMHO spousta tech veci (zprav atd.) je prevzata z anglictiny a prepis se prejme s tim... prepis cinskych jmen do CZ (i do ENG)
      Message 2 of 23 , Aug 8, 2012
        Taky nejsem arabista a netusim, IMHO spousta tech veci (zprav atd.) je
        prevzata z anglictiny a prepis se prejme s tim... prepis cinskych jmen
        do CZ (i do ENG) ma pokud vim nejaka pravidla (pricemz mezi CZ a ENG se
        dost lisi), jestli to tak je i u arabstiny by asi vedel nejaky arabista
        nebo novinar zabyvajici se tim regionem??

        Kdybych mel cas a chtel byt vzorny, tak par takovych lidi kontaktuju
        (coz ale ted o prazdninach nemusi vyjit)... kdybych mel min casu, tak
        budu jen googlit a zjistim, co se pouziva vice/casteji na duveryhodnych
        mistech.. a to pak pouziju.. (a jeste predtim bych googlil jestli
        existyuji nejaka presne dana pravidla transkripce)

        M
        ------ Original Message ------
        From: "Jan Culka" <culka@...>
        To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: 8.8.2012 14:26:23
        Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Ben Alí nebo bin Alí
        >Ahoj,
        >nejsem arabista, ale pozoroal jsem, že přepisy arabštiny (a třeba také
        >čínštiny nebo albánštiny) se v češtině dost výrazně liší, a těžko říct,
        >který z nich je špatně. V originále mohou některé hlásky tvořit zvukový
        >přechod mezi našimi hláskami, takže oba přepisy (ben i bin) jsou vlastně
        >špatně (a nebo dobře, ale oba nepřesně).
        >Pokud jde o jedno slovo, zvolil bych kteroukoliv variantu. Pokud by jich
        >mělo být víc různých, chtělo by to asi nějakou učebnici nebo znalce jazyka,
        >aby ta transkripce byla aspoň systematicky ujetá jedním směrem, ne každé
        >slovo jinak.
        >Honza
        >
        >Jestli to pomůže, bývalý alžírský předseda vlády Ahmed Ben Bella se do
        >češtiny nikdy nepřepisoval s Bin, vždy s Ben.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >----- Original Message -----
        >From: "Mgr. Iveta Pecinkova - Preklady&tlumoceni" <preklady@...>
        >To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
        >Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 2:00 PM
        >Subject: [Czechlist] Ben Alí nebo bin Alí
        >
        >
        >Zdravim,
        >
        >je tu nekdo, kdo mi dokaze fundovane rict, jestli prepis byvaleho tuniského
        >prezidenta je spravne cesky Ben Ali (dlouhe "i") nebo bin Ali nebo uplne
        >jinak. Jazykova poradna me v zasade odkazala na Wikipedii a tam je oboje.
        >Ale jsem zvykla Wikipedii neverit uplne vsechno, takze pokud to někdo
        >spolehlive vi, budu rada za odpoved. Dost to specha.
        >
        >
        >
        >Predem diky
        >
        >Iveta
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >------------------------------------
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >------------------------------------
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/
        >
        >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/join
        > (Yahoo! ID required)
        >
        >
        >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
      • Mgr. Iveta Pecinkova - Preklady&tlumoceni
        Mateji, Honzo, dekuji za prispevky. Iveta _____ From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matej Klimes Sent: Wednesday,
        Message 3 of 23 , Aug 8, 2012
          Mateji, Honzo, dekuji za prispevky.

          Iveta



          _____

          From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of Matej Klimes
          Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 2:56 PM
          To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Czechlist] Re[2]: [Czechlist] Ben Al� nebo bin Al�





          Taky nejsem arabista a netusim, IMHO spousta tech veci (zprav atd.) je
          prevzata z anglictiny a prepis se prejme s tim... prepis cinskych jmen
          do CZ (i do ENG) ma pokud vim nejaka pravidla (pricemz mezi CZ a ENG se
          dost lisi), jestli to tak je i u arabstiny by asi vedel nejaky arabista
          nebo novinar zabyvajici se tim regionem??

          Kdybych mel cas a chtel byt vzorny, tak par takovych lidi kontaktuju
          (coz ale ted o prazdninach nemusi vyjit)... kdybych mel min casu, tak
          budu jen googlit a zjistim, co se pouziva vice/casteji na duveryhodnych
          mistech.. a to pak pouziju.. (a jeste predtim bych googlil jestli
          existyuji nejaka presne dana pravidla transkripce)

          M
          ------ Original Message ------
          From: "Jan Culka" <culka@... <mailto:culka%40marconi.ttc.cz> >
          To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: 8.8.2012 14:26:23
          Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Ben Al� nebo bin Al�
          >Ahoj,
          >nejsem arabista, ale pozoroal jsem, �e p�episy arab�tiny (a t�eba tak�
          >��n�tiny nebo alb�n�tiny) se v �e�tin� dost v�razn� li��, a t��ko ��ct,
          >kter� z nich je �patn�. V origin�le mohou n�kter� hl�sky tvo�it zvukov�
          >p�echod mezi na�imi hl�skami, tak�e oba p�episy (ben i bin) jsou vlastn�
          >�patn� (a nebo dob�e, ale oba nep�esn�).
          >Pokud jde o jedno slovo, zvolil bych kteroukoliv variantu. Pokud by jich
          >m�lo b�t v�c r�zn�ch, cht�lo by to asi n�jakou u�ebnici nebo znalce jazyka,
          >aby ta transkripce byla aspo� systematicky ujet� jedn�m sm�rem, ne ka�d�
          >slovo jinak.
          >Honza
          >
          >Jestli to pom��e, b�val� al��rsk� p�edseda vl�dy Ahmed Ben Bella se do
          >�e�tiny nikdy nep�episoval s Bin, v�dy s Ben.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >----- Original Message -----
          >From: "Mgr. Iveta Pecinkova - Preklady&tlumoceni" <preklady@...
          <mailto:preklady%40pecinkova.cz> >
          >To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> >
          >Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 2:00 PM
          >Subject: [Czechlist] Ben Al� nebo bin Al�
          >
          >
          >Zdravim,
          >
          >je tu nekdo, kdo mi dokaze fundovane rict, jestli prepis byvaleho tunisk�ho
          >prezidenta je spravne cesky Ben Ali (dlouhe "i") nebo bin Ali nebo uplne
          >jinak. Jazykova poradna me v zasade odkazala na Wikipedii a tam je oboje.
          >Ale jsem zvykla Wikipedii neverit uplne vsechno, takze pokud to n�kdo
          >spolehlive vi, budu rada za odpoved. Dost to specha.
          >
          >
          >
          >Predem diky
          >
          >Iveta
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >------------------------------------
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >------------------------------------
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/
          >
          >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/join
          > (Yahoo! ID required)
          >
          >
          >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Matej Klimes
          A client s client insists on using TM in superscript above the word Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is conjugated, i.e. it s an
          Message 4 of 23 , Aug 8, 2012
            A client's client insists on using TM in superscript above the word
            Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is
            conjugated, i.e. it's an advert headline that says someting like (made
            up example):

            Rozumim si s Androidem - where the ENG original was something like 'I
            am made for Android'

            (the adverts are for a consumer electronic device unrelated to
            Android/google, just using it and the bits in questions are headlines,
            not body copies, or small print..)

            It wasn't there originally, but now the client's client (the
            manufacturer) came back saying there has to be a (TM) after every
            Android - makes sense (and looks/sounds fine) in English, but I'm
            trying to tell them that we don't normally use it in Czech in plain
            text (let alone in advertising copy/headlines), I guess the main reason
            is that it's an English abbreviation and it looks weird in a Czech
            sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending
            tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically it's not
            the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt they
            registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is a
            cultural thing, we just don't do it in text or in copy - there'll be a
            small print footnote saying that Coca Cola is registered TM of xxx etc.
            (in Czech), but the copy itself - especially headlines - will not have
            any TM in it in Czech adverts...

            Can you confirm (or not) this feeling/opinion? Both Czech and ENG
            speakers? Thoughts?

            Thanks

            Matej
          • wustpisk
            If they want their little TM, let them have it koho chleba jís, toho pisen zpivej Neres to :)
            Message 5 of 23 , Aug 8, 2012
              If they want their little TM, let them have it
              koho chleba jís, toho pisen zpivej

              Neres to :)

              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
              >
              > A client's client insists on using TM in superscript above the word
              > Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is
              > conjugated, i.e. it's an advert headline that says someting like (made
              > up example):
              >
              > Rozumim si s Androidem - where the ENG original was something like 'I
              > am made for Android'
              >
              > (the adverts are for a consumer electronic device unrelated to
              > Android/google, just using it and the bits in questions are headlines,
              > not body copies, or small print..)
              >
              > It wasn't there originally, but now the client's client (the
              > manufacturer) came back saying there has to be a (TM) after every
              > Android - makes sense (and looks/sounds fine) in English, but I'm
              > trying to tell them that we don't normally use it in Czech in plain
              > text (let alone in advertising copy/headlines), I guess the main reason
              > is that it's an English abbreviation and it looks weird in a Czech
              > sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending
              > tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically it's not
              > the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt they
              > registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is a
              > cultural thing, we just don't do it in text or in copy - there'll be a
              > small print footnote saying that Coca Cola is registered TM of xxx etc.
              > (in Czech), but the copy itself - especially headlines - will not have
              > any TM in it in Czech adverts...
              >
              > Can you confirm (or not) this feeling/opinion? Both Czech and ENG
              > speakers? Thoughts?
              >
              > Thanks
              >
              > Matej
              >
            • Matej Klimes
              I did (let them have it if they want to), but I told them it s going to look silly in an ad headline... the reason I asked here was to confirm whether that s
              Message 6 of 23 , Aug 9, 2012
                I did (let them have it if they want to), but I told them it's going to
                look silly in an ad headline... the reason I asked here was to confirm
                whether that's not just my theory/preference..


                M
                ------ Original Message ------
                From: "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...>
                To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: 8.8.2012 15:31:33
                Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
                > If they want their little TM, let them have it
                >koho chleba jís, toho pisen zpivej
                >
                >Neres to :)
                >
                >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> A client's client insists on using TM in superscript above the word
                >> Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is
                >> conjugated, i.e. it's an advert headline that says someting like
                >(made
                >> up example):
                >>
                >> Rozumim si s Androidem - where the ENG original was something like
                >'I
                >> am made for Android'
                >>
                >> (the adverts are for a consumer electronic device unrelated to
                >> Android/google, just using it and the bits in questions are
                >headlines,
                >> not body copies, or small print..)
                >>
                >> It wasn't there originally, but now the client's client (the
                >> manufacturer) came back saying there has to be a (TM) after every
                >> Android - makes sense (and looks/sounds fine) in English, but I'm
                >> trying to tell them that we don't normally use it in Czech in plain
                >> text (let alone in advertising copy/headlines), I guess the main
                >reason
                >> is that it's an English abbreviation and it looks weird in a Czech
                >> sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending
                >> tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically it's not
                >> the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt
                >they
                >> registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is a
                >> cultural thing, we just don't do it in text or in copy - there'll be
                >a
                >> small print footnote saying that Coca Cola is registered TM of xxx
                >etc.
                >> (in Czech), but the copy itself - especially headlines - will not
                >have
                >> any TM in it in Czech adverts...
                >>
                >> Can you confirm (or not) this feeling/opinion? Both Czech and ENG
                >> speakers? Thoughts?
                >>
                >> Thanks
                >>
                >> Matej
                >>
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Martin Janda
                No, that s a preference of all native Czechs (or at least those with a decent language feeling). That s something I keep struggling with every day when facing
                Message 7 of 23 , Aug 9, 2012
                  No, that's a preference of all native Czechs (or at least those with a
                  decent language feeling). That's something I keep struggling with every
                  day when facing my clients, typically US-based agency PMs. My favorite
                  reply to those requests is something like this:

                  Imagine you have a Spanish client asking you to translate their fancy
                  Spanish ad into English. The client demands that you keep all inverted
                  questionmarks and exclamation marks (that they use at the beginning of
                  sentences) because 'If it works in Spanish, then it must work in English
                  too'. Would you be happy with that?

                  Another M




                  Dne 9.8.2012 9:49, Matej Klimes napsal(a):
                  >
                  > I did (let them have it if they want to), but I told them it's going to
                  > look silly in an ad headline... the reason I asked here was to confirm
                  > whether that's not just my theory/preference..
                  >
                  >
                  > M
                  > ------ Original Message ------
                  > From: "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...
                  > <mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>>
                  > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: 8.8.2012 15:31:33
                  > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
                  > > If they want their little TM, let them have it
                  > >koho chleba jís, toho pisen zpivej
                  > >
                  > >Neres to :)
                  > >
                  > >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >> A client's client insists on using TM in superscript above the word
                  > >> Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is
                  > >> conjugated, i.e. it's an advert headline that says someting like
                  > >(made
                  > >> up example):
                  > >>
                  > >> Rozumim si s Androidem - where the ENG original was something like
                  > >'I
                  > >> am made for Android'
                  > >>
                  > >> (the adverts are for a consumer electronic device unrelated to
                  > >> Android/google, just using it and the bits in questions are
                  > >headlines,
                  > >> not body copies, or small print..)
                  > >>
                  > >> It wasn't there originally, but now the client's client (the
                  > >> manufacturer) came back saying there has to be a (TM) after every
                  > >> Android - makes sense (and looks/sounds fine) in English, but I'm
                  > >> trying to tell them that we don't normally use it in Czech in plain
                  > >> text (let alone in advertising copy/headlines), I guess the main
                  > >reason
                  > >> is that it's an English abbreviation and it looks weird in a Czech
                  > >> sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending
                  > >> tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically it's not
                  > >> the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt
                  > >they
                  > >> registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is a
                  > >> cultural thing, we just don't do it in text or in copy - there'll be
                  > >a
                  > >> small print footnote saying that Coca Cola is registered TM of xxx
                  > >etc.
                  > >> (in Czech), but the copy itself - especially headlines - will not
                  > >have
                  > >> any TM in it in Czech adverts...
                  > >>
                  > >> Can you confirm (or not) this feeling/opinion? Both Czech and ENG
                  > >> speakers? Thoughts?
                  > >>
                  > >> Thanks
                  > >>
                  > >> Matej
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                • Pilucha, Jiri
                  Re „it looks weird in a Czech sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically
                  Message 8 of 23 , Aug 9, 2012
                    Re> „it looks weird in a Czech sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically it's not the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt they registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is a cultural thing“

                    I’d say it’s a legal thing rather than a cultural thing.
                    They don’t need to „register every possible variant in all languages“, simply because (legally) you are not permitted to change the word in any way. Conjugating the word is violation of the Trade Mark. Strictly speaking you should never use „Androidem“ but always „operacnim systemem Android“. It’s not about „what works better in Czech“ but about multimillion lawsuits. Obviously, it is a pain in the *ss to do this all the time, but here’s the key point: if your client releases your translation wehere the word is changed and thus the trade mark violated (especially in high visibility instances such as advertisng), it’s THEM who’s running the risk of legal action against them. Highly unlikely but not unheard of.

                    That much for conjugating the TM-ed words. As for using TM on every occurrence of the word, I agree it’s a lot more elegant to resolve it by small print footnotes instead, and that’s exactly what you see most of the time in the US too (i.e. it’s not a matter of „decent language feeling“ of Czechs as Martin put it) but if the client insists on it I can see no reason why stubbornly refuse it.

                    Jiri


                    From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Martin Janda
                    Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:17 AM
                    To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech



                    No, that's a preference of all native Czechs (or at least those with a
                    decent language feeling). That's something I keep struggling with every
                    day when facing my clients, typically US-based agency PMs. My favorite
                    reply to those requests is something like this:

                    Imagine you have a Spanish client asking you to translate their fancy
                    Spanish ad into English. The client demands that you keep all inverted
                    questionmarks and exclamation marks (that they use at the beginning of
                    sentences) because 'If it works in Spanish, then it must work in English
                    too'. Would you be happy with that?

                    Another M

                    Dne 9.8.2012 9:49, Matej Klimes napsal(a):
                    >
                    > I did (let them have it if they want to), but I told them it's going to
                    > look silly in an ad headline... the reason I asked here was to confirm
                    > whether that's not just my theory/preference..
                    >
                    >
                    > M
                    > ------ Original Message ------
                    > From: "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...<mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>
                    > <mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>>
                    > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: 8.8.2012 15:31:33
                    > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
                    > > If they want their little TM, let them have it
                    > >koho chleba jís, toho pisen zpivej
                    > >
                    > >Neres to :)
                    > >
                    > >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...<mailto:mklimes@...>> wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >> A client's client insists on using TM in superscript above the word
                    > >> Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is
                    > >> conjugated, i.e. it's an advert headline that says someting like
                    > >(made
                    > >> up example):
                    > >>
                    > >> Rozumim si s Androidem - where the ENG original was something like
                    > >'I
                    > >> am made for Android'
                    > >>
                    > >> (the adverts are for a consumer electronic device unrelated to
                    > >> Android/google, just using it and the bits in questions are
                    > >headlines,
                    > >> not body copies, or small print..)
                    > >>
                    > >> It wasn't there originally, but now the client's client (the
                    > >> manufacturer) came back saying there has to be a (TM) after every
                    > >> Android - makes sense (and looks/sounds fine) in English, but I'm
                    > >> trying to tell them that we don't normally use it in Czech in plain
                    > >> text (let alone in advertising copy/headlines), I guess the main
                    > >reason
                    > >> is that it's an English abbreviation and it looks weird in a Czech
                    > >> sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending
                    > >> tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically it's not
                    > >> the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt
                    > >they
                    > >> registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is a
                    > >> cultural thing, we just don't do it in text or in copy - there'll be
                    > >a
                    > >> small print footnote saying that Coca Cola is registered TM of xxx
                    > >etc.
                    > >> (in Czech), but the copy itself - especially headlines - will not
                    > >have
                    > >> any TM in it in Czech adverts...
                    > >>
                    > >> Can you confirm (or not) this feeling/opinion? Both Czech and ENG
                    > >> speakers? Thoughts?
                    > >>
                    > >> Thanks
                    > >>
                    > >> Matej
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Martin Janda
                    I beg to disagree, Jirka. The Czech web, media and space around us are full of conjugated forms of all kinds of brand names, not only Adroid. No one seem to
                    Message 9 of 23 , Aug 9, 2012
                      I beg to disagree, Jirka. The Czech web, media and space around us are
                      full of conjugated forms of all kinds of brand names, not only Adroid.
                      No one seem to initiate any lawsuits because of that, let alone
                      multimilion lawsuits. What would you want to claim/complaint of? Brani
                      znacky bozi bez trejdmarku do ust nadarmo? What harm this should make to
                      whom? No one will tell you why even if you ask your clients. A legal
                      thing, yes. I can almost hear American lawyers: 'We don't think you
                      would need to use furcoats in Borneo but please keep wearing them, just
                      in case a snow storm arrives.'

                      As to stubborn refusals - it depends what is my goal. Whether to make
                      the paying customer happy whatever the costs are, or to make the end
                      user of my text happy. I go for the latter... and if the paying
                      customer is reasonable and listen to me, s/he will be happy too. (And I
                      am trying hard to keep the reasonable ones and avoid the rest.)

                      Martin



                      Dne 9.8.2012 21:19, Pilucha, Jiri napsal(a):
                      >
                      >
                      > Re> „it looks weird in a Czech sentence, especially when the word is
                      > conjugated (it has an ending tacked onto it, which makes it sound
                      > Czech, AND technically it's not the Trade Mark any more, Android is,
                      > but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt they registered every possible variant in
                      > all languages)... this is a cultural thing“
                      >
                      > I’d say it’s a legal thing rather than a cultural thing.
                      > They don’t need to „register every possible variant in all languages“,
                      > simply because (legally) you are not permitted to change the word in
                      > any way. Conjugating the word is violation of the Trade Mark. Strictly
                      > speaking you should never use „Androidem“ but always „operacnim
                      > systemem Android“. It’s not about „what works better in Czech“ but
                      > about multimillion lawsuits. Obviously, it is a pain in the *ss to do
                      > this all the time, but here’s the key point: if your client releases
                      > your translation wehere the word is changed and thus the trade mark
                      > violated (especially in high visibility instances such as advertisng),
                      > it’s THEM who’s running the risk of legal action against them. Highly
                      > unlikely but not unheard of.
                      >
                      > That much for conjugating the TM-ed words. As for using TM on every
                      > occurrence of the word, I agree it’s a lot more elegant to resolve it
                      > by small print footnotes instead, and that’s exactly what you see most
                      > of the time in the US too (i.e. it’s not a matter of „decent language
                      > feeling“ of Czechs as Martin put it) but if the client insists on it I
                      > can see no reason why stubbornly refuse it.
                      >
                      > Jiri
                      >
                      >
                      > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Martin Janda
                      > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:17 AM
                      > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > No, that's a preference of all native Czechs (or at least those with a
                      > decent language feeling). That's something I keep struggling with every
                      > day when facing my clients, typically US-based agency PMs. My favorite
                      > reply to those requests is something like this:
                      >
                      > Imagine you have a Spanish client asking you to translate their fancy
                      > Spanish ad into English. The client demands that you keep all inverted
                      > questionmarks and exclamation marks (that they use at the beginning of
                      > sentences) because 'If it works in Spanish, then it must work in English
                      > too'. Would you be happy with that?
                      >
                      > Another M
                      >
                      > Dne 9.8.2012 9:49, Matej Klimes napsal(a):
                      > >
                      > > I did (let them have it if they want to), but I told them it's going to
                      > > look silly in an ad headline... the reason I asked here was to confirm
                      > > whether that's not just my theory/preference..
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > M
                      > > ------ Original Message ------
                      > > From: "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...
                      > <mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com><mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>
                      > > <mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>>
                      > > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: 8.8.2012 15:31:33
                      > > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
                      > > > If they want their little TM, let them have it
                      > > >koho chleba jís, toho pisen zpivej
                      > > >
                      > > >Neres to :)
                      > > >
                      > > >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Matej Klimes"
                      > <mklimes@...<mailto:mklimes@...>> wrote:
                      > > >>
                      > > >> A client's client insists on using TM in superscript above the word
                      > > >> Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is
                      > > >> conjugated, i.e. it's an advert headline that says someting like
                      > > >(made
                      > > >> up example):
                      > > >>
                      > > >> Rozumim si s Androidem - where the ENG original was something like
                      > > >'I
                      > > >> am made for Android'
                      > > >>
                      > > >> (the adverts are for a consumer electronic device unrelated to
                      > > >> Android/google, just using it and the bits in questions are
                      > > >headlines,
                      > > >> not body copies, or small print..)
                      > > >>
                      > > >> It wasn't there originally, but now the client's client (the
                      > > >> manufacturer) came back saying there has to be a (TM) after every
                      > > >> Android - makes sense (and looks/sounds fine) in English, but I'm
                      > > >> trying to tell them that we don't normally use it in Czech in plain
                      > > >> text (let alone in advertising copy/headlines), I guess the main
                      > > >reason
                      > > >> is that it's an English abbreviation and it looks weird in a Czech
                      > > >> sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending
                      > > >> tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically it's not
                      > > >> the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt
                      > > >they
                      > > >> registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is a
                      > > >> cultural thing, we just don't do it in text or in copy - there'll be
                      > > >a
                      > > >> small print footnote saying that Coca Cola is registered TM of xxx
                      > > >etc.
                      > > >> (in Czech), but the copy itself - especially headlines - will not
                      > > >have
                      > > >> any TM in it in Czech adverts...
                      > > >>
                      > > >> Can you confirm (or not) this feeling/opinion? Both Czech and ENG
                      > > >> speakers? Thoughts?
                      > > >>
                      > > >> Thanks
                      > > >>
                      > > >> Matej
                      > > >>
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                    • Pilucha, Jiri
                      Martine, (a) as to conjugation of Trade Names in a corporate environment I’ve been trained to strictly avoid any legal risk and you may rightly regard it a
                      Message 10 of 23 , Aug 9, 2012
                        Martine,

                        (a) as to conjugation of Trade Names

                        in a corporate environment I’ve been trained to strictly avoid any legal risk and you may rightly regard it a professional deformation. But professional issues aside, personally I am willing to respect legal rights of others, even in purely formal aspects where non-compliance may not cause any big harm. In today’s environment where most people don’t give a damn e.g. about copyright (to which trademark issues are somewhat related in nature) I see it as a symbolic gesture of respect which I consciously wish to express. Of course a lot depends on the type of text (a novel, blog, opinion column, Facebook posting, as opposed to official documents, product documentation, advertisements…)

                        About a lawsuit, I noted that it was „highly unlikely but not unheard of“. In 99.9999999% of cases they won‘t sue. But for instance I’ve heard of corporation X which sued their client (!) for using X’s logo in lower than camera-ready resolution and they succeeded. If you ask me I don’t want to be the 0.00000001%.

                        (b) as to client satisfaction

                        Re: „Whether to make the paying customer happy whatever the costs are…“ -- I don’t entirely understand the horrendous cost of attaching TM to the product name. What’s the big deal here? (Admittedly, what I don’t understand either is why would they bother getting back to you about this rather than making the cosmetic change themselves)

                        Jiri




                        From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Martin Janda
                        Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 10:18 PM
                        To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech



                        I beg to disagree, Jirka. The Czech web, media and space around us are
                        full of conjugated forms of all kinds of brand names, not only Adroid.
                        No one seem to initiate any lawsuits because of that, let alone
                        multimilion lawsuits. What would you want to claim/complaint of? Brani
                        znacky bozi bez trejdmarku do ust nadarmo? What harm this should make to
                        whom? No one will tell you why even if you ask your clients. A legal
                        thing, yes. I can almost hear American lawyers: 'We don't think you
                        would need to use furcoats in Borneo but please keep wearing them, just
                        in case a snow storm arrives.'

                        As to stubborn refusals - it depends what is my goal. Whether to make
                        the paying customer happy whatever the costs are, or to make the end
                        user of my text happy. I go for the latter... and if the paying
                        customer is reasonable and listen to me, s/he will be happy too. (And I
                        am trying hard to keep the reasonable ones and avoid the rest.)

                        Martin

                        Dne 9.8.2012 21:19, Pilucha, Jiri napsal(a):
                        >
                        >
                        > Re> „it looks weird in a Czech sentence, especially when the word is
                        > conjugated (it has an ending tacked onto it, which makes it sound
                        > Czech, AND technically it's not the Trade Mark any more, Android is,
                        > but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt they registered every possible variant in
                        > all languages)... this is a cultural thing“
                        >
                        > I’d say it’s a legal thing rather than a cultural thing.
                        > They don’t need to „register every possible variant in all languages“,
                        > simply because (legally) you are not permitted to change the word in
                        > any way. Conjugating the word is violation of the Trade Mark. Strictly
                        > speaking you should never use „Androidem“ but always „operacnim
                        > systemem Android“. It’s not about „what works better in Czech“ but
                        > about multimillion lawsuits. Obviously, it is a pain in the *ss to do
                        > this all the time, but here’s the key point: if your client releases
                        > your translation wehere the word is changed and thus the trade mark
                        > violated (especially in high visibility instances such as advertisng),
                        > it’s THEM who’s running the risk of legal action against them. Highly
                        > unlikely but not unheard of.
                        >
                        > That much for conjugating the TM-ed words. As for using TM on every
                        > occurrence of the word, I agree it’s a lot more elegant to resolve it
                        > by small print footnotes instead, and that’s exactly what you see most
                        > of the time in the US too (i.e. it’s not a matter of „decent language
                        > feeling“ of Czechs as Martin put it) but if the client insists on it I
                        > can see no reason why stubbornly refuse it.
                        >
                        > Jiri
                        >
                        >
                        > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Martin Janda
                        > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:17 AM
                        > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > No, that's a preference of all native Czechs (or at least those with a
                        > decent language feeling). That's something I keep struggling with every
                        > day when facing my clients, typically US-based agency PMs. My favorite
                        > reply to those requests is something like this:
                        >
                        > Imagine you have a Spanish client asking you to translate their fancy
                        > Spanish ad into English. The client demands that you keep all inverted
                        > questionmarks and exclamation marks (that they use at the beginning of
                        > sentences) because 'If it works in Spanish, then it must work in English
                        > too'. Would you be happy with that?
                        >
                        > Another M
                        >
                        > Dne 9.8.2012 9:49, Matej Klimes napsal(a):
                        > >
                        > > I did (let them have it if they want to), but I told them it's going to
                        > > look silly in an ad headline... the reason I asked here was to confirm
                        > > whether that's not just my theory/preference..
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > M
                        > > ------ Original Message ------
                        > > From: "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...<mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>
                        > <mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com><mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>
                        > > <mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>>
                        > > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Sent: 8.8.2012 15:31:33
                        > > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
                        > > > If they want their little TM, let them have it
                        > > >koho chleba jís, toho pisen zpivej
                        > > >
                        > > >Neres to :)
                        > > >
                        > > >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Matej Klimes"
                        > <mklimes@...<mailto:mklimes@...<mailto:mklimes@...%3cmailto:mklimes@...>>> wrote:
                        > > >>
                        > > >> A client's client insists on using TM in superscript above the word
                        > > >> Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is
                        > > >> conjugated, i.e. it's an advert headline that says someting like
                        > > >(made
                        > > >> up example):
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Rozumim si s Androidem - where the ENG original was something like
                        > > >'I
                        > > >> am made for Android'
                        > > >>
                        > > >> (the adverts are for a consumer electronic device unrelated to
                        > > >> Android/google, just using it and the bits in questions are
                        > > >headlines,
                        > > >> not body copies, or small print..)
                        > > >>
                        > > >> It wasn't there originally, but now the client's client (the
                        > > >> manufacturer) came back saying there has to be a (TM) after every
                        > > >> Android - makes sense (and looks/sounds fine) in English, but I'm
                        > > >> trying to tell them that we don't normally use it in Czech in plain
                        > > >> text (let alone in advertising copy/headlines), I guess the main
                        > > >reason
                        > > >> is that it's an English abbreviation and it looks weird in a Czech
                        > > >> sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending
                        > > >> tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically it's not
                        > > >> the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt
                        > > >they
                        > > >> registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is a
                        > > >> cultural thing, we just don't do it in text or in copy - there'll be
                        > > >a
                        > > >> small print footnote saying that Coca Cola is registered TM of xxx
                        > > >etc.
                        > > >> (in Czech), but the copy itself - especially headlines - will not
                        > > >have
                        > > >> any TM in it in Czech adverts...
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Can you confirm (or not) this feeling/opinion? Both Czech and ENG
                        > > >> speakers? Thoughts?
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Thanks
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Matej
                        > > >>
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Matej Klimes
                        Diky Jirko a Martine for further input.. Re conjugating Android - these were advertising headlines, Jirko, if I said s operacnim systemem Android every time,
                        Message 11 of 23 , Aug 9, 2012
                          Diky Jirko a Martine for further input..

                          Re conjugating Android - these were advertising headlines, Jirko, if I
                          said 's operacnim systemem Android' every time, they would sound stupid
                          and would not fit into the banner/on billboards because they'd be twice
                          as long.. some brand names are best not conjugated (and then you need a
                          'berlicka', hopefully shorter than this), but some conjugate very well
                          - and Android is one of those, see around as Martin said (I think it's
                          because we think of it - the name - as a person?)... it wasn't my idea
                          or persistence to conjugate it - it's been done before in other
                          headlines of that particular client, plus it really makes sense here,
                          the headlines would just be stupid otherwise..

                          Thanks for enlightening me on the legal/TM situation - now that I think
                          of it it makes sense, but I don't think anyone's likely to be enforcing
                          the no conjugation rule

                          Re client satisfaction.. I didn't insist, I just told them using TM in
                          every headline is not what we do in Czech, that it looks weird because
                          of this and that (conjugation being one of those) and that it is
                          usually dealt with in small print in Czech ads and that I'd recommend
                          dropping it to get the best result (Martin's example with Spanish
                          question marks - although it's not exactly the same thing - is a good
                          way to explain this, I'll use it next time..)... It was their call in
                          the end and we'll see how they decided when the adverts are out..

                          Thanks again

                          M


                          ------ Original Message ------
                          From: "Pilucha, Jiri" <jiri.pilucha@...>
                          To: "Czechlist@yahoogroups.com" <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: 9.8.2012 23:32:37
                          Subject: RE: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
                          > Martine,
                          >
                          >(a) as to conjugation of Trade Names
                          >
                          >in a corporate environment I’ve been trained to strictly avoid any
                          >legal risk and you may rightly regard it a professional deformation.
                          >But professional issues aside, personally I am willing to respect
                          >legal rights of others, even in purely formal aspects where
                          >non-compliance may not cause any big harm. In today’s environment
                          >where most people don’t give a damn e.g. about copyright (to which
                          >trademark issues are somewhat related in nature) I see it as a
                          >symbolic gesture of respect which I consciously wish to express. Of
                          >course a lot depends on the type of text (a novel, blog, opinion
                          >column, Facebook posting, as opposed to official documents, product
                          >documentation, advertisements…)
                          >
                          >About a lawsuit, I noted that it was „highly unlikely but not unheard
                          >of“. In 99.9999999% of cases they won‘t sue. But for instance I’ve
                          >heard of corporation X which sued their client (!) for using X’s logo
                          >in lower than camera-ready resolution and they succeeded. If you ask
                          >me I don’t want to be the 0.00000001%.
                          >
                          >(b) as to client satisfaction
                          >
                          >Re: „Whether to make the paying customer happy whatever the costs
                          >are…“ -- I don’t entirely understand the horrendous cost of attaching
                          >TM to the product name. What’s the big deal here? (Admittedly, what I
                          >don’t understand either is why would they bother getting back to you
                          >about this rather than making the cosmetic change themselves)
                          >
                          >Jiri
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Martin Janda
                          >Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 10:18 PM
                          >To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >I beg to disagree, Jirka. The Czech web, media and space around us are
                          >full of conjugated forms of all kinds of brand names, not only Adroid.
                          >No one seem to initiate any lawsuits because of that, let alone
                          >multimilion lawsuits. What would you want to claim/complaint of? Brani
                          >znacky bozi bez trejdmarku do ust nadarmo? What harm this should make
                          >to
                          >whom? No one will tell you why even if you ask your clients. A legal
                          >thing, yes. I can almost hear American lawyers: 'We don't think you
                          >would need to use furcoats in Borneo but please keep wearing them,
                          >just
                          >in case a snow storm arrives.'
                          >
                          >As to stubborn refusals - it depends what is my goal. Whether to make
                          >the paying customer happy whatever the costs are, or to make the end
                          >user of my text happy. I go for the latter... and if the paying
                          >customer is reasonable and listen to me, s/he will be happy too. (And
                          >I
                          >am trying hard to keep the reasonable ones and avoid the rest.)
                          >
                          >Martin
                          >
                          >Dne 9.8.2012 21:19, Pilucha, Jiri napsal(a):
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> Re> „it looks weird in a Czech sentence, especially when the word is
                          >> conjugated (it has an ending tacked onto it, which makes it sound
                          >> Czech, AND technically it's not the Trade Mark any more, Android is,
                          >> but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt they registered every possible variant
                          >in
                          >> all languages)... this is a cultural thing“
                          >>
                          >> I’d say it’s a legal thing rather than a cultural thing.
                          >> They don’t need to „register every possible variant in all
                          >languages“,
                          >> simply because (legally) you are not permitted to change the word in
                          >> any way. Conjugating the word is violation of the Trade Mark.
                          >Strictly
                          >> speaking you should never use „Androidem“ but always „operacnim
                          >> systemem Android“. It’s not about „what works better in Czech“ but
                          >> about multimillion lawsuits. Obviously, it is a pain in the *ss to
                          >do
                          >> this all the time, but here’s the key point: if your client releases
                          >> your translation wehere the word is changed and thus the trade mark
                          >> violated (especially in high visibility instances such as
                          >advertisng),
                          >> it’s THEM who’s running the risk of legal action against them.
                          >Highly
                          >> unlikely but not unheard of.
                          >>
                          >> That much for conjugating the TM-ed words. As for using TM on every
                          >> occurrence of the word, I agree it’s a lot more elegant to resolve
                          >it
                          >> by small print footnotes instead, and that’s exactly what you see
                          >most
                          >> of the time in the US too (i.e. it’s not a matter of „decent
                          >language
                          >> feeling“ of Czechs as Martin put it) but if the client insists on it
                          >I
                          >> can see no reason why stubbornly refuse it.
                          >>
                          >> Jiri
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                          ><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                          >> [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                          >> <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Martin Janda
                          >> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:17 AM
                          >> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                          ><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                          >> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> No, that's a preference of all native Czechs (or at least those with
                          >a
                          >> decent language feeling). That's something I keep struggling with
                          >every
                          >> day when facing my clients, typically US-based agency PMs. My
                          >favorite
                          >> reply to those requests is something like this:
                          >>
                          >> Imagine you have a Spanish client asking you to translate their
                          >fancy
                          >> Spanish ad into English. The client demands that you keep all
                          >inverted
                          >> questionmarks and exclamation marks (that they use at the beginning
                          >of
                          >> sentences) because 'If it works in Spanish, then it must work in
                          >English
                          >> too'. Would you be happy with that?
                          >>
                          >> Another M
                          >>
                          >> Dne 9.8.2012 9:49, Matej Klimes napsal(a):
                          >> >
                          >> > I did (let them have it if they want to), but I told them it's
                          >going to
                          >> > look silly in an ad headline... the reason I asked here was to
                          >confirm
                          >> > whether that's not just my theory/preference..
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> > M
                          >> > ------ Original Message ------
                          >> > From: "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...<mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>
                          >> <mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com><mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>
                          >> > <mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>>
                          >> > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                          >>
                          ><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                          >
                          >> <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                          >> > Sent: 8.8.2012 15:31:33
                          >> > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
                          >> > > If they want their little TM, let them have it
                          >> > >koho chleba jís, toho pisen zpivej
                          >> > >
                          >> > >Neres to :)
                          >> > >
                          >> > >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                          >>
                          ><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                          >
                          >> > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Matej Klimes"
                          >>
                          ><mklimes@...<mailto:mklimes@...<mailto:mklimes@...%3cmailto:mklimes@...>>>
                          >wrote:
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> A client's client insists on using TM in superscript above the
                          >word
                          >> > >> Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is
                          >> > >> conjugated, i.e. it's an advert headline that says someting
                          >like
                          >> > >(made
                          >> > >> up example):
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> Rozumim si s Androidem - where the ENG original was something
                          >like
                          >> > >'I
                          >> > >> am made for Android'
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> (the adverts are for a consumer electronic device unrelated to
                          >> > >> Android/google, just using it and the bits in questions are
                          >> > >headlines,
                          >> > >> not body copies, or small print..)
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> It wasn't there originally, but now the client's client (the
                          >> > >> manufacturer) came back saying there has to be a (TM) after
                          >every
                          >> > >> Android - makes sense (and looks/sounds fine) in English, but
                          >I'm
                          >> > >> trying to tell them that we don't normally use it in Czech in
                          >plain
                          >> > >> text (let alone in advertising copy/headlines), I guess the
                          >main
                          >> > >reason
                          >> > >> is that it's an English abbreviation and it looks weird in a
                          >Czech
                          >> > >> sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an
                          >ending
                          >> > >> tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically
                          >it's not
                          >> > >> the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I
                          >doubt
                          >> > >they
                          >> > >> registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is
                          >a
                          >> > >> cultural thing, we just don't do it in text or in copy -
                          >there'll be
                          >> > >a
                          >> > >> small print footnote saying that Coca Cola is registered TM of
                          >xxx
                          >> > >etc.
                          >> > >> (in Czech), but the copy itself - especially headlines - will
                          >not
                          >> > >have
                          >> > >> any TM in it in Czech adverts...
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> Can you confirm (or not) this feeling/opinion? Both Czech and
                          >ENG
                          >> > >> speakers? Thoughts?
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> Thanks
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >> Matej
                          >> > >>
                          >> > >
                          >> > >
                          >> >
                          >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Matej Klimes
                          On a related issue: Dneska uz se to micha, protoze vetsina fotaku zaroven nataci video, navic i poloprofesionalni digitalni zrcadlovky nataceji video tak
                          Message 12 of 23 , Aug 9, 2012
                            On a related issue:

                            Dneska uz se to micha, protoze vetsina fotaku zaroven nataci video,
                            navic i poloprofesionalni digitalni zrcadlovky nataceji video tak
                            kvalitne, ze je profesionalove pouzivaji jako video kamery... nicmene:

                            Ja si nemuzu pomoct a pokazde kdyz vidim, ze nekdo prelozil slovo
                            camera (a byl to fotak, kompakt) jako 'KAMERA', tak se mi zjezi vlasy
                            na hlave.. Jde zase o podobnou situaci - kratke reklamni slogany... on
                            je problem, ze oficialni slovo je 'fotoaparat', coz zni strasne
                            zastarale a skolometsky, takze uplne nejlepsi je se tomu nejak vyhnout,
                            ale kdyz uz to nejde, tak prece nemuzeme rict kamera, nebo jo? Dalsi
                            souvisejici problem je, ze fotak je muzskeho rodu a kamera zenskeho,
                            takze i kdyz se v nejakem sloganu to slovo primo nevyskytne, u toho
                            omezence (podle me) co si v halve rika 'kamera' jsou tam najednou
                            koncovky zenskeho rodu..

                            Jak rikam, dneska uz se to asi dost stira a mladi co maj odmalicka
                            telefony s pomalu lepsim fotakem nez jsem mel jako profesionalni
                            fotograf uz mozna slovo kamera vypusti z ust bez uzardeni, ale kdyz je
                            to na papire tak to podle me nejde, ono ani v hovoru snad nikdo nerekne
                            vezmi si kameru a vyfot to, nebo jo? Kdyz nekdo rekne kamera, tak to
                            povazuju za presmyk v hlave, protoze premyslel v anglictine, pokud to
                            nekdo napise, tak to povazuju za chybu..

                            No zkratka muj dalsi dotaz je, jestli mam pravdu, kdyz tvrdim, ze v CZ
                            musi byt (still) camera, tedy neco, co je primarne urceno na foceni, i
                            kdyz to umi i nejake to video, vzdycky FOTAK/fotoaparat a KAMERA je jen
                            a pouze video kamera, filmova kamera atd., tedy neco co je primarne
                            urceno na nataceni pohyblivych obrazku.. - nebo jestli jsem jen prilis
                            upjaty:)

                            M


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Martin Janda
                            Mateji, muzu dosvedcit, ze i muj starsi synek, studujici (filmovou) kameru na VS a pouzivajici k nataceni zrcadlovku Canon, rika stale fotaku fotak a kamere
                            Message 13 of 23 , Aug 10, 2012
                              Mateji,

                              muzu dosvedcit, ze i muj starsi synek, studujici (filmovou) kameru na VS
                              a pouzivajici k nataceni zrcadlovku Canon, rika stale fotaku fotak a
                              kamere kamera. Je mu 21, takze pripadna delici cara ocividne neni dana
                              vekem, ale tak leda ignorantstvim. Nekdy je to ale fakt otazka. Treba u
                              Canonu vsech rad je jejich fotakovstvi jasne geneticky dano, ale
                              prekladal jsem manualy ke kompaktnim krabickam za 6 tisic, ze kterych
                              trcel objektiv, umely tocit i fotit, a nevypadaly ani jako klasicky
                              fotak, ani jako kamera. A ted babo rad, jak to vlastne nazvat. Jasne,
                              lze se ponorit do manualu a zjistovat, ktera funkce prevlada, ale byla
                              to dost fuska a nazev jsem behem te prace asi 2x menil.

                              Ze je fotoaparat slovo pachnouci naftalinem a fotak zas nespisovne, to
                              je jina vec. Ale vyrazy jako fotit, fotka a fotak se pomalu vkradaji i
                              do beznych serioznich medii, takze treba casem zespisovni. Do te doby
                              bych zkusil klickovat a kde zni fotoaparat drevene, rikat - pokud to
                              pujde - treba pristroj?

                              Martin

                              Dne 10.8.2012 8:57, Matej Klimes napsal(a):
                              >
                              > On a related issue:
                              >
                              > Dneska uz se to micha, protoze vetsina fotaku zaroven nataci video,
                              > navic i poloprofesionalni digitalni zrcadlovky nataceji video tak
                              > kvalitne, ze je profesionalove pouzivaji jako video kamery... nicmene:
                              >
                              > Ja si nemuzu pomoct a pokazde kdyz vidim, ze nekdo prelozil slovo
                              > camera (a byl to fotak, kompakt) jako 'KAMERA', tak se mi zjezi vlasy
                              > na hlave.. Jde zase o podobnou situaci - kratke reklamni slogany... on
                              > je problem, ze oficialni slovo je 'fotoaparat', coz zni strasne
                              > zastarale a skolometsky, takze uplne nejlepsi je se tomu nejak vyhnout,
                              > ale kdyz uz to nejde, tak prece nemuzeme rict kamera, nebo jo? Dalsi
                              > souvisejici problem je, ze fotak je muzskeho rodu a kamera zenskeho,
                              > takze i kdyz se v nejakem sloganu to slovo primo nevyskytne, u toho
                              > omezence (podle me) co si v halve rika 'kamera' jsou tam najednou
                              > koncovky zenskeho rodu..
                              >
                              > Jak rikam, dneska uz se to asi dost stira a mladi co maj odmalicka
                              > telefony s pomalu lepsim fotakem nez jsem mel jako profesionalni
                              > fotograf uz mozna slovo kamera vypusti z ust bez uzardeni, ale kdyz je
                              > to na papire tak to podle me nejde, ono ani v hovoru snad nikdo nerekne
                              > vezmi si kameru a vyfot to, nebo jo? Kdyz nekdo rekne kamera, tak to
                              > povazuju za presmyk v hlave, protoze premyslel v anglictine, pokud to
                              > nekdo napise, tak to povazuju za chybu..
                              >
                              > No zkratka muj dalsi dotaz je, jestli mam pravdu, kdyz tvrdim, ze v CZ
                              > musi byt (still) camera, tedy neco, co je primarne urceno na foceni, i
                              > kdyz to umi i nejake to video, vzdycky FOTAK/fotoaparat a KAMERA je jen
                              > a pouze video kamera, filmova kamera atd., tedy neco co je primarne
                              > urceno na nataceni pohyblivych obrazku.. - nebo jestli jsem jen prilis
                              > upjaty:)
                              >
                              > M
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                            • Jan Culka
                              Ahoj Mateji, cítím to podobne jako Ty (asi uz jsem taky zastaralý skolomet), ale myslím, ze je treba prekládat (still) camera jako fotoaparát ve vsech
                              Message 14 of 23 , Aug 10, 2012
                                Ahoj Mateji,
                                cítím to podobne jako Ty (asi uz jsem taky zastaralý skolomet), ale myslím, ze je treba prekládat (still) camera jako fotoaparát ve vsech textech (nebo aspon tech oficiálnejsích), a v méne oficiálních mozná foták.
                                Videokamera, televizní kamera, filmová kamera zustávají pro záznam pohyblivého obrazu.
                                Ale treba se to casem taky prizpusobí anglosaskému stylu, jako v mnoha dalsích prípadech.
                                Honza


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Matej Klimes
                                To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 8:57 AM
                                Subject: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech



                                On a related issue:

                                Dneska uz se to micha, protoze vetsina fotaku zaroven nataci video,
                                navic i poloprofesionalni digitalni zrcadlovky nataceji video tak
                                kvalitne, ze je profesionalove pouzivaji jako video kamery... nicmene:

                                Ja si nemuzu pomoct a pokazde kdyz vidim, ze nekdo prelozil slovo
                                camera (a byl to fotak, kompakt) jako 'KAMERA', tak se mi zjezi vlasy
                                na hlave.. Jde zase o podobnou situaci - kratke reklamni slogany... on
                                je problem, ze oficialni slovo je 'fotoaparat', coz zni strasne
                                zastarale a skolometsky, takze uplne nejlepsi je se tomu nejak vyhnout,
                                ale kdyz uz to nejde, tak prece nemuzeme rict kamera, nebo jo? Dalsi
                                souvisejici problem je, ze fotak je muzskeho rodu a kamera zenskeho,
                                takze i kdyz se v nejakem sloganu to slovo primo nevyskytne, u toho
                                omezence (podle me) co si v halve rika 'kamera' jsou tam najednou
                                koncovky zenskeho rodu..

                                Jak rikam, dneska uz se to asi dost stira a mladi co maj odmalicka
                                telefony s pomalu lepsim fotakem nez jsem mel jako profesionalni
                                fotograf uz mozna slovo kamera vypusti z ust bez uzardeni, ale kdyz je
                                to na papire tak to podle me nejde, ono ani v hovoru snad nikdo nerekne
                                vezmi si kameru a vyfot to, nebo jo? Kdyz nekdo rekne kamera, tak to
                                povazuju za presmyk v hlave, protoze premyslel v anglictine, pokud to
                                nekdo napise, tak to povazuju za chybu..

                                No zkratka muj dalsi dotaz je, jestli mam pravdu, kdyz tvrdim, ze v CZ
                                musi byt (still) camera, tedy neco, co je primarne urceno na foceni, i
                                kdyz to umi i nejake to video, vzdycky FOTAK/fotoaparat a KAMERA je jen
                                a pouze video kamera, filmova kamera atd., tedy neco co je primarne
                                urceno na nataceni pohyblivych obrazku.. - nebo jestli jsem jen prilis
                                upjaty:)

                                M

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Jirka Bolech
                                Ahoj Mateji, ja zastavam stejny postoj, jaky navrhujes, ale nerikal bych tomu mit pravdu nebo byt upjaty , spise to muze predstavovat konzervativni
                                Message 15 of 23 , Aug 10, 2012
                                  Ahoj Mateji,

                                  ja zastavam stejny postoj, jaky navrhujes, ale nerikal bych tomu "mit
                                  pravdu" nebo "byt upjaty", spise to muze predstavovat "konzervativni"
                                  pristup. Vyvoj cestiny se zda smerovat k urcite konvergenci s
                                  anglictinou i za cenu nepresnosti i vyslovenych nesmyslu, rozhodne na
                                  neformalni urovni, ktera samozrejme kvantitativne naprosto prevlada,
                                  treba i ve sdelovacich prostredcich (rozumnej "mediich"). Rekl bych, ze
                                  statni system formalniho vzdelavani vykazuje o rad nizsi ucinnost vlivu
                                  na vyvoj jazyka nez konzumni zivotni styl. Asi to je jeden z projevu
                                  relativne liberalnich politickych pomeru.

                                  Take jsem v odbornem textu (geodetika) narazil na vyraz "(fotograficka)
                                  komora", ale ten evidentne nebude vhodny pro vetsinu prekladu slova
                                  "camera"...

                                  Jirka Bolech


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                                  Czechlist mailing list
                                  Czechlist@...
                                  http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                                • Matej Klimes
                                  Jasne, dik.. klickuju co muzu a v posledni dobe - do tech sloganu - FOTAK klidne davam, protoze to ma byt takove osobni a cerstve - ty slogany jsou vsechny v
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Aug 10, 2012
                                    Jasne, dik..

                                    klickuju co muzu a v posledni dobe - do tech sloganu - FOTAK klidne
                                    davam, protoze to ma byt takove osobni a cerstve - ty slogany jsou
                                    vsechny v ich-forme, jako ze to ten fotak rika, a hovorove vyrazy se
                                    tam pouzivaji i jinde... pristroj nebo zarizeni by tam znely moc
                                    kozene, kamera to rozhodne neni a fotoaparat z pusy v hovoru nikdo
                                    nevypusti..

                                    Re krabicky co umi oboji, tezko rict, ale ja se jeste nesetkal s necim,
                                    cemu bych mohl v CZ rikat KAMERA (co by bylo primarne urceno na
                                    nataceni pohyblivych obrazku) a co by zaroven umelo fotit jednotlive
                                    snimky a melo nejake ty funkce fotaku, ktere nesouvisi s natacenim
                                    videa... kdyz to umi oboji, tak je to podle me furt fotak, i kdyz je
                                    pravda, ze ta hranice bude cim dal tim rozmazanejsi.. v mobilech se
                                    tomu porad rika fotak - i te aplikaci - i kdyz to stejne dobre umi
                                    natacet video a prepina se to jednim tlacitkem (a je to velke jak
                                    tabletka aspirinu - ted jsem menil praskly display na svem Googlephonu
                                    a nestacil jsem se divit..)

                                    M
                                    ------ Original Message ------
                                    From: "Martin Janda" <mjanda@...>
                                    To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: 10.8.2012 9:10:04
                                    Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                    >Mateji,
                                    >
                                    >muzu dosvedcit, ze i muj starsi synek, studujici (filmovou) kameru na VS
                                    >a pouzivajici k nataceni zrcadlovku Canon, rika stale fotaku fotak a
                                    >kamere kamera. Je mu 21, takze pripadna delici cara ocividne neni dana
                                    >vekem, ale tak leda ignorantstvim. Nekdy je to ale fakt otazka. Treba u
                                    >Canonu vsech rad je jejich fotakovstvi jasne geneticky dano, ale
                                    >prekladal jsem manualy ke kompaktnim krabickam za 6 tisic, ze kterych
                                    >trcel objektiv, umely tocit i fotit, a nevypadaly ani jako klasicky
                                    >fotak, ani jako kamera. A ted babo rad, jak to vlastne nazvat. Jasne,
                                    >lze se ponorit do manualu a zjistovat, ktera funkce prevlada, ale byla
                                    >to dost fuska a nazev jsem behem te prace asi 2x menil.
                                    >
                                    >Ze je fotoaparat slovo pachnouci naftalinem a fotak zas nespisovne, to
                                    >je jina vec. Ale vyrazy jako fotit, fotka a fotak se pomalu vkradaji i
                                    >do beznych serioznich medii, takze treba casem zespisovni. Do te doby
                                    >bych zkusil klickovat a kde zni fotoaparat drevene, rikat - pokud to
                                    >pujde - treba pristroj?
                                    >
                                    >Martin
                                    >
                                    >Dne 10.8.2012 8:57, Matej Klimes napsal(a):
                                    >
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>On a related issue:
                                    >>
                                    >>Dneska uz se to micha, protoze vetsina fotaku zaroven nataci video,
                                    >>navic i poloprofesionalni digitalni zrcadlovky nataceji video tak
                                    >>kvalitne, ze je profesionalove pouzivaji jako video kamery... nicmene:
                                    >>
                                    >>Ja si nemuzu pomoct a pokazde kdyz vidim, ze nekdo prelozil slovo
                                    >>camera (a byl to fotak, kompakt) jako 'KAMERA', tak se mi zjezi vlasy
                                    >>na hlave.. Jde zase o podobnou situaci - kratke reklamni slogany... on
                                    >>je problem, ze oficialni slovo je 'fotoaparat', coz zni strasne
                                    >>zastarale a skolometsky, takze uplne nejlepsi je se tomu nejak vyhnout,
                                    >>ale kdyz uz to nejde, tak prece nemuzeme rict kamera, nebo jo? Dalsi
                                    >>souvisejici problem je, ze fotak je muzskeho rodu a kamera zenskeho,
                                    >>takze i kdyz se v nejakem sloganu to slovo primo nevyskytne, u toho
                                    >>omezence (podle me) co si v halve rika 'kamera' jsou tam najednou
                                    >>koncovky zenskeho rodu..
                                    >>
                                    >>Jak rikam, dneska uz se to asi dost stira a mladi co maj odmalicka
                                    >>telefony s pomalu lepsim fotakem nez jsem mel jako profesionalni
                                    >>fotograf uz mozna slovo kamera vypusti z ust bez uzardeni, ale kdyz je
                                    >>to na papire tak to podle me nejde, ono ani v hovoru snad nikdo nerekne
                                    >>vezmi si kameru a vyfot to, nebo jo? Kdyz nekdo rekne kamera, tak to
                                    >>povazuju za presmyk v hlave, protoze premyslel v anglictine, pokud to
                                    >>nekdo napise, tak to povazuju za chybu..
                                    >>
                                    >>No zkratka muj dalsi dotaz je, jestli mam pravdu, kdyz tvrdim, ze v CZ
                                    >>musi byt (still) camera, tedy neco, co je primarne urceno na foceni, i
                                    >>kdyz to umi i nejake to video, vzdycky FOTAK/fotoaparat a KAMERA je jen
                                    >>a pouze video kamera, filmova kamera atd., tedy neco co je primarne
                                    >>urceno na nataceni pohyblivych obrazku.. - nebo jestli jsem jen prilis
                                    >>upjaty:)
                                    >>
                                    >>M
                                    >>
                                    >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                  • Matej Klimes
                                    No ono problem je, ze anglosasky styl neznamena, ze by tomu rikali stejne nebo ze by to misili, jen pro to pouzivaji stejne slovo, ale oficialni nazev fotaku
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Aug 10, 2012
                                      No ono problem je, ze anglosasky styl neznamena, ze by tomu rikali
                                      stejne nebo ze by to misili, jen pro to pouzivaji stejne slovo, ale
                                      oficialni nazev fotaku (ktery si kazdy tak nejak predstavi v have) je
                                      still camera... i kdyz pro oboji pouzivaji stejne slovo, ten rozdil tam
                                      je, zduraznuje se spise u te kamery kdyz se chce nekdo ujistit, ze vime
                                      o cem mluvi..

                                      Je to tim, ze si to slovo vzali z Camery Obscury, coz byl princip
                                      prvnich fotaku... a protoze jsou zvykli na to, hadat vse z kontextu,
                                      tak se pozdeji nenamahali vytvorit jine slovo kdyz bratia Lumierovci ty
                                      fotky rozpohybovali.... to u nas kdybychom fotaku od zacatku rikali
                                      kamera tak kameram dneska rikame 'pohyblivoobrazkovace' :)

                                      M
                                      ------ Original Message ------
                                      From: "Jan Culka" <culka@...>
                                      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: 10.8.2012 9:15:58
                                      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                      > Ahoj Mateji,
                                      >cítím to podobne jako Ty (asi uz jsem taky zastaralý skolomet), ale
                                      >myslím, ze je treba prekládat (still) camera jako fotoaparát ve vsech
                                      >textech (nebo aspon tech oficiálnejsích), a v méne oficiálních mozná
                                      >foták.
                                      >Videokamera, televizní kamera, filmová kamera zustávají pro záznam
                                      >pohyblivého obrazu.
                                      >Ale treba se to casem taky prizpusobí anglosaskému stylu, jako v mnoha
                                      >dalsích prípadech.
                                      >Honza
                                      >
                                      >----- Original Message -----
                                      >From: Matej Klimes
                                      >To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      >Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 8:57 AM
                                      >Subject: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                      >
                                      >On a related issue:
                                      >
                                      >Dneska uz se to micha, protoze vetsina fotaku zaroven nataci video,
                                      >navic i poloprofesionalni digitalni zrcadlovky nataceji video tak
                                      >kvalitne, ze je profesionalove pouzivaji jako video kamery... nicmene:
                                      >
                                      >Ja si nemuzu pomoct a pokazde kdyz vidim, ze nekdo prelozil slovo
                                      >camera (a byl to fotak, kompakt) jako 'KAMERA', tak se mi zjezi vlasy
                                      >na hlave.. Jde zase o podobnou situaci - kratke reklamni slogany... on
                                      >je problem, ze oficialni slovo je 'fotoaparat', coz zni strasne
                                      >zastarale a skolometsky, takze uplne nejlepsi je se tomu nejak
                                      >vyhnout,
                                      >ale kdyz uz to nejde, tak prece nemuzeme rict kamera, nebo jo? Dalsi
                                      >souvisejici problem je, ze fotak je muzskeho rodu a kamera zenskeho,
                                      >takze i kdyz se v nejakem sloganu to slovo primo nevyskytne, u toho
                                      >omezence (podle me) co si v halve rika 'kamera' jsou tam najednou
                                      >koncovky zenskeho rodu..
                                      >
                                      >Jak rikam, dneska uz se to asi dost stira a mladi co maj odmalicka
                                      >telefony s pomalu lepsim fotakem nez jsem mel jako profesionalni
                                      >fotograf uz mozna slovo kamera vypusti z ust bez uzardeni, ale kdyz je
                                      >to na papire tak to podle me nejde, ono ani v hovoru snad nikdo
                                      >nerekne
                                      >vezmi si kameru a vyfot to, nebo jo? Kdyz nekdo rekne kamera, tak to
                                      >povazuju za presmyk v hlave, protoze premyslel v anglictine, pokud to
                                      >nekdo napise, tak to povazuju za chybu..
                                      >
                                      >No zkratka muj dalsi dotaz je, jestli mam pravdu, kdyz tvrdim, ze v CZ
                                      >musi byt (still) camera, tedy neco, co je primarne urceno na foceni, i
                                      >kdyz to umi i nejake to video, vzdycky FOTAK/fotoaparat a KAMERA je
                                      >jen
                                      >a pouze video kamera, filmova kamera atd., tedy neco co je primarne
                                      >urceno na nataceni pohyblivych obrazku.. - nebo jestli jsem jen prilis
                                      >upjaty:)
                                      >
                                      >M
                                      >
                                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Pilucha, Jiri
                                      Mateji, ja myslel, ze kamere rikaji camcorder, anebo to ma nejaky uzsi vyznam? J. From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Aug 10, 2012
                                        Mateji, ja myslel, ze kamere rikaji camcorder, anebo to ma nejaky uzsi vyznam?
                                        J.

                                        From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matej Klimes
                                        Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:30 AM
                                        To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re[2]: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech



                                        No ono problem je, ze anglosasky styl neznamena, ze by tomu rikali
                                        stejne nebo ze by to misili, jen pro to pouzivaji stejne slovo, ale
                                        oficialni nazev fotaku (ktery si kazdy tak nejak predstavi v have) je
                                        still camera... i kdyz pro oboji pouzivaji stejne slovo, ten rozdil tam
                                        je, zduraznuje se spise u te kamery kdyz se chce nekdo ujistit, ze vime
                                        o cem mluvi..

                                        Je to tim, ze si to slovo vzali z Camery Obscury, coz byl princip
                                        prvnich fotaku... a protoze jsou zvykli na to, hadat vse z kontextu,
                                        tak se pozdeji nenamahali vytvorit jine slovo kdyz bratia Lumierovci ty
                                        fotky rozpohybovali.... to u nas kdybychom fotaku od zacatku rikali
                                        kamera tak kameram dneska rikame 'pohyblivoobrazkovace' :)

                                        M
                                        ------ Original Message ------
                                        From: "Jan Culka" <culka@...<mailto:culka%40marconi.ttc.cz>>
                                        To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: 10.8.2012 9:15:58
                                        Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                        > Ahoj Mateji,
                                        >cítím to podobne jako Ty (asi uz jsem taky zastaralý skolomet), ale
                                        >myslím, ze je treba prekládat (still) camera jako fotoaparát ve vsech
                                        >textech (nebo aspon tech oficiálnejsích), a v méne oficiálních mozná
                                        >foták.
                                        >Videokamera, televizní kamera, filmová kamera zustávají pro záznam
                                        >pohyblivého obrazu.
                                        >Ale treba se to casem taky prizpusobí anglosaskému stylu, jako v mnoha
                                        >dalsích prípadech.
                                        >Honza
                                        >
                                        >----- Original Message -----
                                        >From: Matej Klimes
                                        >To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        >Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 8:57 AM
                                        >Subject: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                        >
                                        >On a related issue:
                                        >
                                        >Dneska uz se to micha, protoze vetsina fotaku zaroven nataci video,
                                        >navic i poloprofesionalni digitalni zrcadlovky nataceji video tak
                                        >kvalitne, ze je profesionalove pouzivaji jako video kamery... nicmene:
                                        >
                                        >Ja si nemuzu pomoct a pokazde kdyz vidim, ze nekdo prelozil slovo
                                        >camera (a byl to fotak, kompakt) jako 'KAMERA', tak se mi zjezi vlasy
                                        >na hlave.. Jde zase o podobnou situaci - kratke reklamni slogany... on
                                        >je problem, ze oficialni slovo je 'fotoaparat', coz zni strasne
                                        >zastarale a skolometsky, takze uplne nejlepsi je se tomu nejak
                                        >vyhnout,
                                        >ale kdyz uz to nejde, tak prece nemuzeme rict kamera, nebo jo? Dalsi
                                        >souvisejici problem je, ze fotak je muzskeho rodu a kamera zenskeho,
                                        >takze i kdyz se v nejakem sloganu to slovo primo nevyskytne, u toho
                                        >omezence (podle me) co si v halve rika 'kamera' jsou tam najednou
                                        >koncovky zenskeho rodu..
                                        >
                                        >Jak rikam, dneska uz se to asi dost stira a mladi co maj odmalicka
                                        >telefony s pomalu lepsim fotakem nez jsem mel jako profesionalni
                                        >fotograf uz mozna slovo kamera vypusti z ust bez uzardeni, ale kdyz je
                                        >to na papire tak to podle me nejde, ono ani v hovoru snad nikdo
                                        >nerekne
                                        >vezmi si kameru a vyfot to, nebo jo? Kdyz nekdo rekne kamera, tak to
                                        >povazuju za presmyk v hlave, protoze premyslel v anglictine, pokud to
                                        >nekdo napise, tak to povazuju za chybu..
                                        >
                                        >No zkratka muj dalsi dotaz je, jestli mam pravdu, kdyz tvrdim, ze v CZ
                                        >musi byt (still) camera, tedy neco, co je primarne urceno na foceni, i
                                        >kdyz to umi i nejake to video, vzdycky FOTAK/fotoaparat a KAMERA je
                                        >jen
                                        >a pouze video kamera, filmova kamera atd., tedy neco co je primarne
                                        >urceno na nataceni pohyblivych obrazku.. - nebo jestli jsem jen prilis
                                        >upjaty:)
                                        >
                                        >M
                                        >
                                        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Matej Klimes
                                        Jo, to je pravda, video kamera je camcorder, jako ze nahrava, filmova ne, ale v normalnim hovoru - a s dnesnimi mini krabickami co maji SD karty misto kazet -
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Aug 11, 2012
                                          Jo, to je pravda, video kamera je camcorder, jako ze nahrava, filmova
                                          ne, ale v normalnim hovoru - a s dnesnimi mini krabickami co maji SD
                                          karty misto kazet - se to myslim uz tak nepouziva

                                          Tohle je proste jen camera:

                                          http://gopro.com/hd-hero-cameras/

                                          ... ale tohle zase camcorder, takze kdyz to vypada jako byvala video
                                          kamera s kazetou, tak se ten nazev asi drzi..

                                          http://www.gtmstores.com/i-7806136-panasonic-hd-camcorder-hdc-sd90.html

                                          ... ale ja nechtel anglosasum mluvit do toho jak cemu rikaji, jen se
                                          ujistit ze muj problem se slovem kamera pro fotak neni jen muj :)

                                          M


                                          ----- Original Message ------
                                          From: "Pilucha, Jiri" <jiri.pilucha@...>
                                          To: "Czechlist@yahoogroups.com" <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: 11.8.2012 2:30:25
                                          Subject: RE: Re[2]: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                          > Mateji, ja myslel, ze kamere rikaji camcorder, anebo to ma nejaky
                                          >uzsi vyznam?
                                          >J.
                                          >
                                          >From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matej Klimes
                                          >Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:30 AM
                                          >To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          >Subject: Re[2]: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >No ono problem je, ze anglosasky styl neznamena, ze by tomu rikali
                                          >stejne nebo ze by to misili, jen pro to pouzivaji stejne slovo, ale
                                          >oficialni nazev fotaku (ktery si kazdy tak nejak predstavi v have) je
                                          >still camera... i kdyz pro oboji pouzivaji stejne slovo, ten rozdil
                                          >tam
                                          >je, zduraznuje se spise u te kamery kdyz se chce nekdo ujistit, ze
                                          >vime
                                          >o cem mluvi..
                                          >
                                          >Je to tim, ze si to slovo vzali z Camery Obscury, coz byl princip
                                          >prvnich fotaku... a protoze jsou zvykli na to, hadat vse z kontextu,
                                          >tak se pozdeji nenamahali vytvorit jine slovo kdyz bratia Lumierovci
                                          >ty
                                          >fotky rozpohybovali.... to u nas kdybychom fotaku od zacatku rikali
                                          >kamera tak kameram dneska rikame 'pohyblivoobrazkovace' :)
                                          >
                                          >M
                                          >------ Original Message ------
                                          >From: "Jan Culka" <culka@...<mailto:culka%40marconi.ttc.cz>>
                                          >To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          >Sent: 10.8.2012 9:15:58
                                          >Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                          >> Ahoj Mateji,
                                          >>cítím to podobne jako Ty (asi uz jsem taky zastaralý skolomet), ale
                                          >>myslím, ze je treba prekládat (still) camera jako fotoaparát ve vsech
                                          >>textech (nebo aspon tech oficiálnejsích), a v méne oficiálních mozná
                                          >>foták.
                                          >>Videokamera, televizní kamera, filmová kamera zustávají pro záznam
                                          >>pohyblivého obrazu.
                                          >>Ale treba se to casem taky prizpusobí anglosaskému stylu, jako v
                                          >mnoha
                                          >>dalsích prípadech.
                                          >>Honza
                                          >>
                                          >>----- Original Message -----
                                          >>From: Matej Klimes
                                          >>To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          >>Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 8:57 AM
                                          >>Subject: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                          >>
                                          >>On a related issue:
                                          >>
                                          >>Dneska uz se to micha, protoze vetsina fotaku zaroven nataci video,
                                          >>navic i poloprofesionalni digitalni zrcadlovky nataceji video tak
                                          >>kvalitne, ze je profesionalove pouzivaji jako video kamery...
                                          >nicmene:
                                          >>
                                          >>Ja si nemuzu pomoct a pokazde kdyz vidim, ze nekdo prelozil slovo
                                          >>camera (a byl to fotak, kompakt) jako 'KAMERA', tak se mi zjezi vlasy
                                          >>na hlave.. Jde zase o podobnou situaci - kratke reklamni slogany...
                                          >on
                                          >>je problem, ze oficialni slovo je 'fotoaparat', coz zni strasne
                                          >>zastarale a skolometsky, takze uplne nejlepsi je se tomu nejak
                                          >>vyhnout,
                                          >>ale kdyz uz to nejde, tak prece nemuzeme rict kamera, nebo jo? Dalsi
                                          >>souvisejici problem je, ze fotak je muzskeho rodu a kamera zenskeho,
                                          >>takze i kdyz se v nejakem sloganu to slovo primo nevyskytne, u toho
                                          >>omezence (podle me) co si v halve rika 'kamera' jsou tam najednou
                                          >>koncovky zenskeho rodu..
                                          >>
                                          >>Jak rikam, dneska uz se to asi dost stira a mladi co maj odmalicka
                                          >>telefony s pomalu lepsim fotakem nez jsem mel jako profesionalni
                                          >>fotograf uz mozna slovo kamera vypusti z ust bez uzardeni, ale kdyz
                                          >je
                                          >>to na papire tak to podle me nejde, ono ani v hovoru snad nikdo
                                          >>nerekne
                                          >>vezmi si kameru a vyfot to, nebo jo? Kdyz nekdo rekne kamera, tak to
                                          >>povazuju za presmyk v hlave, protoze premyslel v anglictine, pokud to
                                          >>nekdo napise, tak to povazuju za chybu..
                                          >>
                                          >>No zkratka muj dalsi dotaz je, jestli mam pravdu, kdyz tvrdim, ze v
                                          >CZ
                                          >>musi byt (still) camera, tedy neco, co je primarne urceno na foceni,
                                          >i
                                          >>kdyz to umi i nejake to video, vzdycky FOTAK/fotoaparat a KAMERA je
                                          >>jen
                                          >>a pouze video kamera, filmova kamera atd., tedy neco co je primarne
                                          >>urceno na nataceni pohyblivych obrazku.. - nebo jestli jsem jen
                                          >prilis
                                          >>upjaty:)
                                          >>
                                          >>M
                                          >>
                                          >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >>
                                          >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >
                                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • vtalacko@ageng.pair.com
                                          We call it a video camera, although some people call it a camcorder. They re the same thing, as far as I know - it s just a matter of preference. Camcorder is
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Aug 11, 2012
                                            We call it a video camera, although some people call it a camcorder.
                                            They're the same thing, as far as I know - it's just a matter of
                                            preference. Camcorder is probably used more when selling them, but it
                                            sounds a bit artificial - people (as far as I know) are more likely to say
                                            day-to-day "should I take the video camera?" rather than "should I take
                                            the camcorder?"

                                            Valerie

                                            > Mateji, ja myslel, ze kamere rikaji camcorder, anebo to ma nejaky uzsi
                                            > vyznam?
                                            > J.
                                            >
                                            > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
                                            > Behalf Of Matej Klimes
                                            > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:30 AM
                                            > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: Re[2]: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > No ono problem je, ze anglosasky styl neznamena, ze by tomu rikali
                                            > stejne nebo ze by to misili, jen pro to pouzivaji stejne slovo, ale
                                            > oficialni nazev fotaku (ktery si kazdy tak nejak predstavi v have) je
                                            > still camera... i kdyz pro oboji pouzivaji stejne slovo, ten rozdil tam
                                            > je, zduraznuje se spise u te kamery kdyz se chce nekdo ujistit, ze vime
                                            > o cem mluvi..
                                            >
                                            > Je to tim, ze si to slovo vzali z Camery Obscury, coz byl princip
                                            > prvnich fotaku... a protoze jsou zvykli na to, hadat vse z kontextu,
                                            > tak se pozdeji nenamahali vytvorit jine slovo kdyz bratia Lumierovci ty
                                            > fotky rozpohybovali.... to u nas kdybychom fotaku od zacatku rikali
                                            > kamera tak kameram dneska rikame 'pohyblivoobrazkovace' :)
                                            >
                                            > M
                                            > ------ Original Message ------
                                            > From: "Jan Culka" <culka@...<mailto:culka%40marconi.ttc.cz>>
                                            > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > Sent: 10.8.2012 9:15:58
                                            > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                            >> Ahoj Mateji,
                                            >>cítím to podobne jako Ty (asi uz jsem taky zastaralý skolomet), ale
                                            >>myslím, ze je treba prekládat (still) camera jako fotoaparát ve vsech
                                            >>textech (nebo aspon tech oficiálnejsích), a v méne oficiálních mozná
                                            >>foták.
                                            >>Videokamera, televizní kamera, filmová kamera zustávají pro záznam
                                            >>pohyblivého obrazu.
                                            >>Ale treba se to casem taky prizpusobí anglosaskému stylu, jako v mnoha
                                            >>dalsích prípadech.
                                            >>Honza
                                            >>
                                            >>----- Original Message -----
                                            >>From: Matej Klimes
                                            >>To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            >>Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 8:57 AM
                                            >>Subject: [Czechlist] Still vs. video camera in Czech
                                            >>
                                            >>On a related issue:
                                            >>
                                            >>Dneska uz se to micha, protoze vetsina fotaku zaroven nataci video,
                                            >>navic i poloprofesionalni digitalni zrcadlovky nataceji video tak
                                            >>kvalitne, ze je profesionalove pouzivaji jako video kamery... nicmene:
                                            >>
                                            >>Ja si nemuzu pomoct a pokazde kdyz vidim, ze nekdo prelozil slovo
                                            >>camera (a byl to fotak, kompakt) jako 'KAMERA', tak se mi zjezi vlasy
                                            >>na hlave.. Jde zase o podobnou situaci - kratke reklamni slogany... on
                                            >>je problem, ze oficialni slovo je 'fotoaparat', coz zni strasne
                                            >>zastarale a skolometsky, takze uplne nejlepsi je se tomu nejak
                                            >>vyhnout,
                                            >>ale kdyz uz to nejde, tak prece nemuzeme rict kamera, nebo jo? Dalsi
                                            >>souvisejici problem je, ze fotak je muzskeho rodu a kamera zenskeho,
                                            >>takze i kdyz se v nejakem sloganu to slovo primo nevyskytne, u toho
                                            >>omezence (podle me) co si v halve rika 'kamera' jsou tam najednou
                                            >>koncovky zenskeho rodu..
                                            >>
                                            >>Jak rikam, dneska uz se to asi dost stira a mladi co maj odmalicka
                                            >>telefony s pomalu lepsim fotakem nez jsem mel jako profesionalni
                                            >>fotograf uz mozna slovo kamera vypusti z ust bez uzardeni, ale kdyz je
                                            >>to na papire tak to podle me nejde, ono ani v hovoru snad nikdo
                                            >>nerekne
                                            >>vezmi si kameru a vyfot to, nebo jo? Kdyz nekdo rekne kamera, tak to
                                            >>povazuju za presmyk v hlave, protoze premyslel v anglictine, pokud to
                                            >>nekdo napise, tak to povazuju za chybu..
                                            >>
                                            >>No zkratka muj dalsi dotaz je, jestli mam pravdu, kdyz tvrdim, ze v CZ
                                            >>musi byt (still) camera, tedy neco, co je primarne urceno na foceni, i
                                            >>kdyz to umi i nejake to video, vzdycky FOTAK/fotoaparat a KAMERA je
                                            >>jen
                                            >>a pouze video kamera, filmova kamera atd., tedy neco co je primarne
                                            >>urceno na nataceni pohyblivych obrazku.. - nebo jestli jsem jen prilis
                                            >>upjaty:)
                                            >>
                                            >>M
                                            >>
                                            >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >>
                                            >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • James Kirchner
                                            This is late, but now that we re all back online, I ll weigh in on this one. As for English (American) usage of the TM symbol, when I worked in advertising --
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Aug 30, 2012
                                              This is late, but now that we're all back online, I'll weigh in on this one.

                                              As for English (American) usage of the TM symbol, when I worked in advertising -- and I worked for what, at the time, was "the world's largest advertising agency" -- we did not put the TM symbol after every incidence of the brand name.

                                              According to our legal department (and subsequent departments I worked with at other agencies), the TM symbol did not have to appear after the trademark every time, but just often enough that it's clear that it's a registered trademark.

                                              In practice, this meant that we put the TM symbol (or R symbol, or SM symbol) after the trademark the first time it appeared on each page, and left it off the rest of the time.

                                              We virtually never put the TM symbol after the trademark every time it appeared -- only if we had a nutty client who insisted on it, which was rare.

                                              Jamie

                                              On Aug 8, 2012, at 9:05 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:

                                              > A client's client insists on using TM in superscript above the word
                                              > Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is
                                              > conjugated, i.e. it's an advert headline that says someting like (made
                                              > up example):
                                              >
                                              > Rozumim si s Androidem - where the ENG original was something like 'I
                                              > am made for Android'
                                              >
                                              > (the adverts are for a consumer electronic device unrelated to
                                              > Android/google, just using it and the bits in questions are headlines,
                                              > not body copies, or small print..)
                                              >
                                              > It wasn't there originally, but now the client's client (the
                                              > manufacturer) came back saying there has to be a (TM) after every
                                              > Android - makes sense (and looks/sounds fine) in English, but I'm
                                              > trying to tell them that we don't normally use it in Czech in plain
                                              > text (let alone in advertising copy/headlines), I guess the main reason
                                              > is that it's an English abbreviation and it looks weird in a Czech
                                              > sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending
                                              > tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically it's not
                                              > the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt they
                                              > registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is a
                                              > cultural thing, we just don't do it in text or in copy - there'll be a
                                              > small print footnote saying that Coca Cola is registered TM of xxx etc.
                                              > (in Czech), but the copy itself - especially headlines - will not have
                                              > any TM in it in Czech adverts...
                                              >
                                              > Can you confirm (or not) this feeling/opinion? Both Czech and ENG
                                              > speakers? Thoughts?
                                              >
                                              > Thanks
                                              >
                                              > Matej
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > _______________________________________________
                                              > Czechlist mailing list
                                              > Czechlist@...
                                              > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


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                                            • Pilucha, Jiri
                                              Exactly! By sheer coincidence I ve just come across the following internal instruction issued by a US-based Corporation (XY) to its Marketing XY trademarks
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Aug 30, 2012
                                                Exactly! By sheer coincidence I've just come across the following internal instruction issued by a US-based Corporation (XY) to its Marketing

                                                "XY trademarks and service marks should be identified and distinguished in marketing material copy by using either a (R) or TM after XY trademark's first reference in headlines and body text. Subsequent references do not need to include the (R) or TM after the trademark name."


                                                From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Kirchner
                                                Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 2:12 PM
                                                To: czechlist@...
                                                Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Use of the TM symbol in Czech



                                                This is late, but now that we're all back online, I'll weigh in on this one.

                                                As for English (American) usage of the TM symbol, when I worked in advertising -- and I worked for what, at the time, was "the world's largest advertising agency" -- we did not put the TM symbol after every incidence of the brand name.

                                                According to our legal department (and subsequent departments I worked with at other agencies), the TM symbol did not have to appear after the trademark every time, but just often enough that it's clear that it's a registered trademark.

                                                In practice, this meant that we put the TM symbol (or R symbol, or SM symbol) after the trademark the first time it appeared on each page, and left it off the rest of the time.

                                                We virtually never put the TM symbol after the trademark every time it appeared -- only if we had a nutty client who insisted on it, which was rare.

                                                Jamie

                                                On Aug 8, 2012, at 9:05 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:

                                                > A client's client insists on using TM in superscript above the word
                                                > Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is
                                                > conjugated, i.e. it's an advert headline that says someting like (made
                                                > up example):
                                                >
                                                > Rozumim si s Androidem - where the ENG original was something like 'I
                                                > am made for Android'
                                                >
                                                > (the adverts are for a consumer electronic device unrelated to
                                                > Android/google, just using it and the bits in questions are headlines,
                                                > not body copies, or small print..)
                                                >
                                                > It wasn't there originally, but now the client's client (the
                                                > manufacturer) came back saying there has to be a (TM) after every
                                                > Android - makes sense (and looks/sounds fine) in English, but I'm
                                                > trying to tell them that we don't normally use it in Czech in plain
                                                > text (let alone in advertising copy/headlines), I guess the main reason
                                                > is that it's an English abbreviation and it looks weird in a Czech
                                                > sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an ending
                                                > tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically it's not
                                                > the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt they
                                                > registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is a
                                                > cultural thing, we just don't do it in text or in copy - there'll be a
                                                > small print footnote saying that Coca Cola is registered TM of xxx etc.
                                                > (in Czech), but the copy itself - especially headlines - will not have
                                                > any TM in it in Czech adverts...
                                                >
                                                > Can you confirm (or not) this feeling/opinion? Both Czech and ENG
                                                > speakers? Thoughts?
                                                >
                                                > Thanks
                                                >
                                                > Matej
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > _______________________________________________
                                                > Czechlist mailing list
                                                > Czechlist@...<mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
                                                > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist

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