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[Czechlist] ISSUE: tzv.

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  • James Kirchner
    Let s see if the other native speakers on the list agree with me about this one. Non-native English speakers (and some native speakers) often translate
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 18 6:05 AM
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      Let's see if the other native speakers on the list agree with me about this one.

      Non-native English speakers (and some native speakers) often translate European expressions like "tak zvany", "so-genannte", etc., as "so-called".

      In most cases, this expression should not be translated into English at all. Here is my reasoning:

      In the continental European languages, these "tzv." expressions generally mean, "This is what they call the thing," or else, "Attention! Here comes a foreign language!"

      In English, the most common meaning of "so-called" is, "This thing is fake." For example, "That so-called doctor almost killed me," or, "I can't stand that so-called bread you Americans eat!" It is quite negative and used very derogatorily in journalism in reference to politicians and "experts", among others.

      I know that the English meaning can often be intended in the other languages also, but in English this expression almost always indicates that the thing or person it refers to is probably phony.

      So, when that meaning is not intended, the best thing to do is usually to leave the expression out completely or use quotation marks or italics:

      tzv. Rose adagio -> the Rose Adagio

      If you really need the basic meaning of "tzv." in English, you can use an expression like "what is called":

      "Lide v Detroitu kupuji lihoviny v tzv. 'party store'."
      "People in Detroit buy liquor at what is called a party store."
      "People in Detroit buy liquor at what is locally called a party store."
      "People in Detroit buy liquor at what they call a party store."

      Jamie


      _______________________________________________
      Czechlist mailing list
      Czechlist@...
      http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
    • Melvyn
      One is reminded of this: I blow my nose at you so-called Arthur king, you and all your silly Eenglish kerniggerts...
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 18 6:23 AM
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        One is reminded of this:

        "I blow my nose at you so-called Arthur king, you and all your silly Eenglish kerniggerts..."
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V7zbWNznbs (2.12)

        and this:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/40949

        BR

        M.

        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
        >
        > Let's see if the other native speakers on the list agree with me about this one.
        >
        > Non-native English speakers (and some native speakers) often translate European expressions like "tak zvany", "so-genannte", etc., as "so-called".
        >
        > In most cases, this expression should not be translated into English at all. Here is my reasoning:
        >
        > In the continental European languages, these "tzv." expressions generally mean, "This is what they call the thing," or else, "Attention! Here comes a foreign language!"
        >
        > In English, the most common meaning of "so-called" is, "This thing is fake." For example, "That so-called doctor almost killed me," or, "I can't stand that so-called bread you Americans eat!" It is quite negative and used very derogatorily in journalism in reference to politicians and "experts", among others.
        >
        > I know that the English meaning can often be intended in the other languages also, but in English this expression almost always indicates that the thing or person it refers to is probably phony.
        >
        > So, when that meaning is not intended, the best thing to do is usually to leave the expression out completely or use quotation marks or italics:
        >
        > tzv. Rose adagio -> the Rose Adagio
        >
        > If you really need the basic meaning of "tzv." in English, you can use an expression like "what is called":
        >
        > "Lide v Detroitu kupuji lihoviny v tzv. 'party store'."
        > "People in Detroit buy liquor at what is called a party store."
        > "People in Detroit buy liquor at what is locally called a party store."
        > "People in Detroit buy liquor at what they call a party store."
        >
        > Jamie
        >
        >
        > _______________________________________________
        > Czechlist mailing list
        > Czechlist@...
        > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
        >
      • James Kirchner
        Yes, similar. JK ... _______________________________________________ Czechlist mailing list Czechlist@czechlist.org
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 18 6:30 AM
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          Yes, similar.

          JK

          On Jun 18, 2012, at 9:23 AM, Melvyn wrote:

          > One is reminded of this:
          >
          > "I blow my nose at you so-called Arthur king, you and all your silly Eenglish kerniggerts..."
          > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V7zbWNznbs (2.12)
          >
          > and this:
          >
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/40949
          >
          > BR
          >
          > M.
          >
          > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
          >>
          >> Let's see if the other native speakers on the list agree with me about this one.
          >>
          >> Non-native English speakers (and some native speakers) often translate European expressions like "tak zvany", "so-genannte", etc., as "so-called".
          >>
          >> In most cases, this expression should not be translated into English at all. Here is my reasoning:
          >>
          >> In the continental European languages, these "tzv." expressions generally mean, "This is what they call the thing," or else, "Attention! Here comes a foreign language!"
          >>
          >> In English, the most common meaning of "so-called" is, "This thing is fake." For example, "That so-called doctor almost killed me," or, "I can't stand that so-called bread you Americans eat!" It is quite negative and used very derogatorily in journalism in reference to politicians and "experts", among others.
          >>
          >> I know that the English meaning can often be intended in the other languages also, but in English this expression almost always indicates that the thing or person it refers to is probably phony.
          >>
          >> So, when that meaning is not intended, the best thing to do is usually to leave the expression out completely or use quotation marks or italics:
          >>
          >> tzv. Rose adagio -> the Rose Adagio
          >>
          >> If you really need the basic meaning of "tzv." in English, you can use an expression like "what is called":
          >>
          >> "Lide v Detroitu kupuji lihoviny v tzv. 'party store'."
          >> "People in Detroit buy liquor at what is called a party store."
          >> "People in Detroit buy liquor at what is locally called a party store."
          >> "People in Detroit buy liquor at what they call a party store."
          >>
          >> Jamie
          >>
          >>
          >> _______________________________________________
          >> Czechlist mailing list
          >> Czechlist@...
          >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
          >>
          >
          > _______________________________________________
          > Czechlist mailing list
          > Czechlist@...
          > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


          _______________________________________________
          Czechlist mailing list
          Czechlist@...
          http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
        • wustpisk
          cf. section 222, page 66 of Don Sparling s English or Czenglish . I am sure you are familiar with it - here is a link just in case
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 18 6:40 AM
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            cf. section 222, page 66 of Don Sparling's 'English or Czenglish'. I am sure you are familiar with it - here is a link just in case http://www.maths.ed.ac.uk/~jmarecek/czenglish/prelim/modern-reference.pdf

            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
            >
            > Yes, similar.
            >
            > JK
            >
            > On Jun 18, 2012, at 9:23 AM, Melvyn wrote:
            >
            > > One is reminded of this:
            > >
            > > "I blow my nose at you so-called Arthur king, you and all your silly Eenglish kerniggerts..."
            > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V7zbWNznbs (2.12)
            > >
            > > and this:
            > >
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/40949
            > >
            > > BR
            > >
            > > M.
            > >
            > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
            > >>
            > >> Let's see if the other native speakers on the list agree with me about this one.
            > >>
            > >> Non-native English speakers (and some native speakers) often translate European expressions like "tak zvany", "so-genannte", etc., as "so-called".
            > >>
            > >> In most cases, this expression should not be translated into English at all. Here is my reasoning:
            > >>
            > >> In the continental European languages, these "tzv." expressions generally mean, "This is what they call the thing," or else, "Attention! Here comes a foreign language!"
            > >>
            > >> In English, the most common meaning of "so-called" is, "This thing is fake." For example, "That so-called doctor almost killed me," or, "I can't stand that so-called bread you Americans eat!" It is quite negative and used very derogatorily in journalism in reference to politicians and "experts", among others.
            > >>
            > >> I know that the English meaning can often be intended in the other languages also, but in English this expression almost always indicates that the thing or person it refers to is probably phony.
            > >>
            > >> So, when that meaning is not intended, the best thing to do is usually to leave the expression out completely or use quotation marks or italics:
            > >>
            > >> tzv. Rose adagio -> the Rose Adagio
            > >>
            > >> If you really need the basic meaning of "tzv." in English, you can use an expression like "what is called":
            > >>
            > >> "Lide v Detroitu kupuji lihoviny v tzv. 'party store'."
            > >> "People in Detroit buy liquor at what is called a party store."
            > >> "People in Detroit buy liquor at what is locally called a party store."
            > >> "People in Detroit buy liquor at what they call a party store."
            > >>
            > >> Jamie
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> _______________________________________________
            > >> Czechlist mailing list
            > >> Czechlist@
            > >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
            > >>
            > >
            > > _______________________________________________
            > > Czechlist mailing list
            > > Czechlist@...
            > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
            >
            >
            > _______________________________________________
            > Czechlist mailing list
            > Czechlist@...
            > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
            >
          • James Kirchner
            I have a first-edition copy of English or Czenglish that I bought za totalitu, but I m not thoroughly familiar with it and can t cite chapter and verse.
            Message 5 of 11 , Jun 18 6:52 AM
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              I have a first-edition copy of "English or Czenglish" that I bought za totalitu, but I'm not thoroughly familiar with it and can't cite chapter and verse. This is because I personally don't suffer from the problem of writing in Czenglish.

              Jamie

              On Jun 18, 2012, at 9:40 AM, wustpisk wrote:

              > cf. section 222, page 66 of Don Sparling's 'English or Czenglish'. I am sure you are familiar with it - here is a link just in case http://www.maths.ed.ac.uk/~jmarecek/czenglish/prelim/modern-reference.pdf
              >
              > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Yes, similar.
              >>
              >> JK
              >>
              >> On Jun 18, 2012, at 9:23 AM, Melvyn wrote:
              >>
              >>> One is reminded of this:
              >>>
              >>> "I blow my nose at you so-called Arthur king, you and all your silly Eenglish kerniggerts..."
              >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V7zbWNznbs (2.12)
              >>>
              >>> and this:
              >>>
              >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/40949
              >>>
              >>> BR
              >>>
              >>> M.
              >>>
              >>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
              >>>>
              >>>> Let's see if the other native speakers on the list agree with me about this one.
              >>>>
              >>>> Non-native English speakers (and some native speakers) often translate European expressions like "tak zvany", "so-genannte", etc., as "so-called".
              >>>>
              >>>> In most cases, this expression should not be translated into English at all. Here is my reasoning:
              >>>>
              >>>> In the continental European languages, these "tzv." expressions generally mean, "This is what they call the thing," or else, "Attention! Here comes a foreign language!"
              >>>>
              >>>> In English, the most common meaning of "so-called" is, "This thing is fake." For example, "That so-called doctor almost killed me," or, "I can't stand that so-called bread you Americans eat!" It is quite negative and used very derogatorily in journalism in reference to politicians and "experts", among others.
              >>>>
              >>>> I know that the English meaning can often be intended in the other languages also, but in English this expression almost always indicates that the thing or person it refers to is probably phony.
              >>>>
              >>>> So, when that meaning is not intended, the best thing to do is usually to leave the expression out completely or use quotation marks or italics:
              >>>>
              >>>> tzv. Rose adagio -> the Rose Adagio
              >>>>
              >>>> If you really need the basic meaning of "tzv." in English, you can use an expression like "what is called":
              >>>>
              >>>> "Lide v Detroitu kupuji lihoviny v tzv. 'party store'."
              >>>> "People in Detroit buy liquor at what is called a party store."
              >>>> "People in Detroit buy liquor at what is locally called a party store."
              >>>> "People in Detroit buy liquor at what they call a party store."
              >>>>
              >>>> Jamie
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>> _______________________________________________
              >>>> Czechlist mailing list
              >>>> Czechlist@
              >>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
              >>>>
              >>>
              >>> _______________________________________________
              >>> Czechlist mailing list
              >>> Czechlist@...
              >>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
              >>
              >>
              >> _______________________________________________
              >> Czechlist mailing list
              >> Czechlist@...
              >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
              >>
              >
              > _______________________________________________
              > Czechlist mailing list
              > Czechlist@...
              > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


              _______________________________________________
              Czechlist mailing list
              Czechlist@...
              http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
            • wustpisk
              It is a very useful tome - you should make yourself familiar with it as it will answer many of the issues that you bring up from time to time, regardless of
              Message 6 of 11 , Jun 18 6:58 AM
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                It is a very useful tome - you should make yourself familiar with it as it will answer many of the issues that you bring up from time to time, regardless of whether you might not write in Czenglish. You both seem to have reached the same conclusion on this one - great minds and all that ... :)

                Saying that, I haven't actually seen a copy for many years, but I vaguely recollected that this area was somehow covered. Good to see that it has entered the internet age and, what is more, it is free of charge.

                --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                >
                > I have a first-edition copy of "English or Czenglish" that I bought za totalitu, but I'm not thoroughly familiar with it and can't cite chapter and verse. This is because I personally don't suffer from the problem of writing in Czenglish.
                >
                > Jamie
                >
                > On Jun 18, 2012, at 9:40 AM, wustpisk wrote:
                >
                > > cf. section 222, page 66 of Don Sparling's 'English or Czenglish'. I am sure you are familiar with it - here is a link just in case http://www.maths.ed.ac.uk/~jmarecek/czenglish/prelim/modern-reference.pdf
                > >
                > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
                > >>
                > >> Yes, similar.
                > >>
                > >> JK
                > >>
                > >> On Jun 18, 2012, at 9:23 AM, Melvyn wrote:
                > >>
                > >>> One is reminded of this:
                > >>>
                > >>> "I blow my nose at you so-called Arthur king, you and all your silly Eenglish kerniggerts..."
                > >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V7zbWNznbs (2.12)
                > >>>
                > >>> and this:
                > >>>
                > >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/40949
                > >>>
                > >>> BR
                > >>>
                > >>> M.
                > >>>
                > >>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@> wrote:
                > >>>>
                > >>>> Let's see if the other native speakers on the list agree with me about this one.
                > >>>>
                > >>>> Non-native English speakers (and some native speakers) often translate European expressions like "tak zvany", "so-genannte", etc., as "so-called".
                > >>>>
                > >>>> In most cases, this expression should not be translated into English at all. Here is my reasoning:
                > >>>>
                > >>>> In the continental European languages, these "tzv." expressions generally mean, "This is what they call the thing," or else, "Attention! Here comes a foreign language!"
                > >>>>
                > >>>> In English, the most common meaning of "so-called" is, "This thing is fake." For example, "That so-called doctor almost killed me," or, "I can't stand that so-called bread you Americans eat!" It is quite negative and used very derogatorily in journalism in reference to politicians and "experts", among others.
                > >>>>
                > >>>> I know that the English meaning can often be intended in the other languages also, but in English this expression almost always indicates that the thing or person it refers to is probably phony.
                > >>>>
                > >>>> So, when that meaning is not intended, the best thing to do is usually to leave the expression out completely or use quotation marks or italics:
                > >>>>
                > >>>> tzv. Rose adagio -> the Rose Adagio
                > >>>>
                > >>>> If you really need the basic meaning of "tzv." in English, you can use an expression like "what is called":
                > >>>>
                > >>>> "Lide v Detroitu kupuji lihoviny v tzv. 'party store'."
                > >>>> "People in Detroit buy liquor at what is called a party store."
                > >>>> "People in Detroit buy liquor at what is locally called a party store."
                > >>>> "People in Detroit buy liquor at what they call a party store."
                > >>>>
                > >>>> Jamie
                > >>>>
                > >>>>
                > >>>> _______________________________________________
                > >>>> Czechlist mailing list
                > >>>> Czechlist@
                > >>>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                > >>>>
                > >>>
                > >>> _______________________________________________
                > >>> Czechlist mailing list
                > >>> Czechlist@
                > >>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> _______________________________________________
                > >> Czechlist mailing list
                > >> Czechlist@
                > >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                > >>
                > >
                > > _______________________________________________
                > > Czechlist mailing list
                > > Czechlist@...
                > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                >
                >
                > _______________________________________________
                > Czechlist mailing list
                > Czechlist@...
                > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                >
              • Melvyn
                ... I find barely a Skype English lesson goes by without some reference to English or Czenglish? - Jak se vyhnout cechismum v anglictine. I keep telling my
                Message 7 of 11 , Jun 18 12:21 PM
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                  --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > It is a very useful tome

                  I find barely a Skype English lesson goes by without some reference to English or Czenglish? - Jak se vyhnout cechismum v anglictine. I keep telling my students that they ought to sack me and just study Don Sparling. Only the other day a new upper intermediate student was surprised to learn the pitfalls of "patrit" and sentences like "to the main points of interest belong the castle and the cathedral".

                  A quick glance at Sparling soon set her straight.

                  Actually, I have developed a Skype teaching procedure that often makes use of Sparling's book. I encourage students to send me a written piece before each lesson. Instead of just marking the mistakes in bright red, I read back the text sentence by sentence with various alterations. Some of my alterations are improvements, some are not, and some are just stylistic alternatives, synonyms and the like. I think this serves as a fine comprehension test and it gives students the opportunities to consider and discuss the various alternatives, sensitizing them to stylistic issues. Practically once a lesson one of Sparling's classic issues crops up, and we recapitulate all these orisky at the beginning of each subsequent lesson. I am now thinking of offering a small discount for each resolved Sparlingism that is incorporated into subsequent homework. :-O

                  Peprnik (Anglictina pro pokrocile) is quite good at this kind of thing too.

                  One very small quibble re Sparling. In my old verision he refers to "workplace" and "place of work" as "spisovne, uredni vyrazy". Do you feel this to be exclusively the case? This random find on the web strikes me as quite normal informal or neutral language, actually:
                  "I like someone at my workplace . ... is telling him that I like him a good idea?"

                  A fine standby for "pracoviste" from time to time IMHO.

                  BR

                  M.
                • Petr
                  Podle meho pozorovani se v anglickych textech, kde by Cech pouzil tzv., pouzivaji uvozovky (napr. u odbornych nazvu v textech pro laiky, typu: nosici geneticke
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jun 19 8:13 AM
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                    Podle meho pozorovani se v anglickych textech, kde by Cech pouzil tzv., pouzivaji uvozovky (napr. u odbornych nazvu v textech pro laiky, typu: nosici geneticke infomace jsou tzv. nuleove kyseliny - genetic information is transmitted by "nucleic acids").
                    Petr A.


                    --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Let's see if the other native speakers on the list agree with me about this one.
                    >
                    > Non-native English speakers (and some native speakers) often translate European expressions like "tak zvany", "so-genannte", etc., as "so-called".
                    >
                    > In most cases, this expression should not be translated into English at all. Here is my reasoning:
                    >
                    > In the continental European languages, these "tzv." expressions generally mean, "This is what they call the thing," or else, "Attention! Here comes a foreign language!"
                    >
                    > In English, the most common meaning of "so-called" is, "This thing is fake." For example, "That so-called doctor almost killed me," or, "I can't stand that so-called bread you Americans eat!" It is quite negative and used very derogatorily in journalism in reference to politicians and "experts", among others.
                    >
                    > I know that the English meaning can often be intended in the other languages also, but in English this expression almost always indicates that the thing or person it refers to is probably phony.
                    >
                    > So, when that meaning is not intended, the best thing to do is usually to leave the expression out completely or use quotation marks or italics:
                    >
                    > tzv. Rose adagio -> the Rose Adagio
                    >
                    > If you really need the basic meaning of "tzv." in English, you can use an expression like "what is called":
                    >
                    > "Lide v Detroitu kupuji lihoviny v tzv. 'party store'."
                    > "People in Detroit buy liquor at what is called a party store."
                    > "People in Detroit buy liquor at what is locally called a party store."
                    > "People in Detroit buy liquor at what they call a party store."
                    >
                    > Jamie
                    >
                    >
                    > _______________________________________________
                    > Czechlist mailing list
                    > Czechlist@...
                    > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                    >
                  • James Kirchner
                    That s a solution sometimes, but when tzv. precedes the legitimate, usual name of something (like nucleic acids), it s best not even to use quotation marks
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jun 19 8:23 AM
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                      That's a solution sometimes, but when "tzv." precedes the legitimate, usual name of something (like nucleic acids), it's best not even to use quotation marks and just leave the term naked.

                      Jamie

                      On Jun 19, 2012, at 11:13 AM, Petr wrote:

                      > Podle meho pozorovani se v anglickych textech, kde by Cech pouzil tzv., pouzivaji uvozovky (napr. u odbornych nazvu v textech pro laiky, typu: nosici geneticke infomace jsou tzv. nuleove kyseliny - genetic information is transmitted by "nucleic acids").
                      > Petr A.
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> Let's see if the other native speakers on the list agree with me about this one.
                      >>
                      >> Non-native English speakers (and some native speakers) often translate European expressions like "tak zvany", "so-genannte", etc., as "so-called".
                      >>
                      >> In most cases, this expression should not be translated into English at all. Here is my reasoning:
                      >>
                      >> In the continental European languages, these "tzv." expressions generally mean, "This is what they call the thing," or else, "Attention! Here comes a foreign language!"
                      >>
                      >> In English, the most common meaning of "so-called" is, "This thing is fake." For example, "That so-called doctor almost killed me," or, "I can't stand that so-called bread you Americans eat!" It is quite negative and used very derogatorily in journalism in reference to politicians and "experts", among others.
                      >>
                      >> I know that the English meaning can often be intended in the other languages also, but in English this expression almost always indicates that the thing or person it refers to is probably phony.
                      >>
                      >> So, when that meaning is not intended, the best thing to do is usually to leave the expression out completely or use quotation marks or italics:
                      >>
                      >> tzv. Rose adagio -> the Rose Adagio
                      >>
                      >> If you really need the basic meaning of "tzv." in English, you can use an expression like "what is called":
                      >>
                      >> "Lide v Detroitu kupuji lihoviny v tzv. 'party store'."
                      >> "People in Detroit buy liquor at what is called a party store."
                      >> "People in Detroit buy liquor at what is locally called a party store."
                      >> "People in Detroit buy liquor at what they call a party store."
                      >>
                      >> Jamie
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> _______________________________________________
                      >> Czechlist mailing list
                      >> Czechlist@...
                      >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      > _______________________________________________
                      > Czechlist mailing list
                      > Czechlist@...
                      > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


                      _______________________________________________
                      Czechlist mailing list
                      Czechlist@...
                      http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                    • Martin Janda
                      I did a survey across my TM too - just checked what were the source English segments I translated as tzv into Czech. My admirations, Jamie - all entries I
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jun 19 8:54 AM
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                        I did a survey across my TM too - just checked what were the source
                        English segments I translated as 'tzv' into Czech. My admirations, Jamie
                        - all entries I was able to find matched items on your list.

                        Martin


                        Dne 19.6.2012 17:23, James Kirchner napsal(a):
                        >
                        > That's a solution sometimes, but when "tzv." precedes the legitimate,
                        > usual name of something (like nucleic acids), it's best not even to
                        > use quotation marks and just leave the term naked.
                        >
                        > Jamie
                        >
                        > On Jun 19, 2012, at 11:13 AM, Petr wrote:
                        >
                        > > Podle meho pozorovani se v anglickych textech, kde by Cech pouzil
                        > tzv., pouzivaji uvozovky (napr. u odbornych nazvu v textech pro laiky,
                        > typu: nosici geneticke infomace jsou tzv. nuleove kyseliny - genetic
                        > information is transmitted by "nucleic acids").
                        > > Petr A.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                        > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, James Kirchner <czechlist@...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >> Let's see if the other native speakers on the list agree with me
                        > about this one.
                        > >>
                        > >> Non-native English speakers (and some native speakers) often
                        > translate European expressions like "tak zvany", "so-genannte", etc.,
                        > as "so-called".
                        > >>
                        > >> In most cases, this expression should not be translated into
                        > English at all. Here is my reasoning:
                        > >>
                        > >> In the continental European languages, these "tzv." expressions
                        > generally mean, "This is what they call the thing," or else,
                        > "Attention! Here comes a foreign language!"
                        > >>
                        > >> In English, the most common meaning of "so-called" is, "This thing
                        > is fake." For example, "That so-called doctor almost killed me," or,
                        > "I can't stand that so-called bread you Americans eat!" It is quite
                        > negative and used very derogatorily in journalism in reference to
                        > politicians and "experts", among others.
                        > >>
                        > >> I know that the English meaning can often be intended in the other
                        > languages also, but in English this expression almost always indicates
                        > that the thing or person it refers to is probably phony.
                        > >>
                        > >> So, when that meaning is not intended, the best thing to do is
                        > usually to leave the expression out completely or use quotation marks
                        > or italics:
                        > >>
                        > >> tzv. Rose adagio -> the Rose Adagio
                        > >>
                        > >> If you really need the basic meaning of "tzv." in English, you can
                        > use an expression like "what is called":
                        > >>
                        > >> "Lide v Detroitu kupuji lihoviny v tzv. 'party store'."
                        > >> "People in Detroit buy liquor at what is called a party store."
                        > >> "People in Detroit buy liquor at what is locally called a party store."
                        > >> "People in Detroit buy liquor at what they call a party store."
                        > >>
                        > >> Jamie
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> _______________________________________________
                        > >> Czechlist mailing list
                        > >> Czechlist@...
                        > >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > _______________________________________________
                        > > Czechlist mailing list
                        > > Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
                        > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                        >
                        > _______________________________________________
                        > Czechlist mailing list
                        > Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
                        > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                        >
                        >
                      • Valerie Talacko
                        And the Czech translation of My So-Called Life (the US TV series) is Tak tohle je muj zivot (but in Serbian it s Moj takozvani zivot ). ...
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jun 19 9:44 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          And the Czech translation of "My So-Called Life" (the US TV series) is
                          "Tak tohle je muj zivot" (but in Serbian it's "Moj takozvani zivot").

                          On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 17:54 +0200, Martin Janda wrote:
                          > I did a survey across my TM too - just checked what were the source
                          > English segments I translated as 'tzv' into Czech. My admirations, Jamie
                          > - all entries I was able to find matched items on your list.
                          >
                          > Martin
                          >
                          >
                          > Dne 19.6.2012 17:23, James Kirchner napsal(a):
                          > >
                          > > That's a solution sometimes, but when "tzv." precedes the legitimate,
                          > > usual name of something (like nucleic acids), it's best not even to
                          > > use quotation marks and just leave the term naked.
                          > >
                          > > Jamie
                          > >
                          > > On Jun 19, 2012, at 11:13 AM, Petr wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > Podle meho pozorovani se v anglickych textech, kde by Cech pouzil
                          > > tzv., pouzivaji uvozovky (napr. u odbornych nazvu v textech pro laiky,
                          > > typu: nosici geneticke infomace jsou tzv. nuleove kyseliny - genetic
                          > > information is transmitted by "nucleic acids").
                          > > > Petr A.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                          > > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, James Kirchner <czechlist@...>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >>
                          > > >> Let's see if the other native speakers on the list agree with me
                          > > about this one.
                          > > >>
                          > > >> Non-native English speakers (and some native speakers) often
                          > > translate European expressions like "tak zvany", "so-genannte", etc.,
                          > > as "so-called".
                          > > >>
                          > > >> In most cases, this expression should not be translated into
                          > > English at all. Here is my reasoning:
                          > > >>
                          > > >> In the continental European languages, these "tzv." expressions
                          > > generally mean, "This is what they call the thing," or else,
                          > > "Attention! Here comes a foreign language!"
                          > > >>
                          > > >> In English, the most common meaning of "so-called" is, "This thing
                          > > is fake." For example, "That so-called doctor almost killed me," or,
                          > > "I can't stand that so-called bread you Americans eat!" It is quite
                          > > negative and used very derogatorily in journalism in reference to
                          > > politicians and "experts", among others.
                          > > >>
                          > > >> I know that the English meaning can often be intended in the other
                          > > languages also, but in English this expression almost always indicates
                          > > that the thing or person it refers to is probably phony.
                          > > >>
                          > > >> So, when that meaning is not intended, the best thing to do is
                          > > usually to leave the expression out completely or use quotation marks
                          > > or italics:
                          > > >>
                          > > >> tzv. Rose adagio -> the Rose Adagio
                          > > >>
                          > > >> If you really need the basic meaning of "tzv." in English, you can
                          > > use an expression like "what is called":
                          > > >>
                          > > >> "Lide v Detroitu kupuji lihoviny v tzv. 'party store'."
                          > > >> "People in Detroit buy liquor at what is called a party store."
                          > > >> "People in Detroit buy liquor at what is locally called a party store."
                          > > >> "People in Detroit buy liquor at what they call a party store."
                          > > >>
                          > > >> Jamie
                          > > >>
                          > > >>
                          > > >> _______________________________________________
                          > > >> Czechlist mailing list
                          > > >> Czechlist@...
                          > > >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                          > > >>
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > _______________________________________________
                          > > > Czechlist mailing list
                          > > > Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
                          > > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                          > >
                          > > _______________________________________________
                          > > Czechlist mailing list
                          > > Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
                          > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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