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ISSUE: Non-comparative comparative

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  • Melvyn
    Another source of perplexity is the Czech comparative used when nothing is explicitly being compared. Smyslem a cilem vychovy je dosazeni trvalejsich zmen v
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 18, 2012
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      Another source of perplexity is the Czech comparative used when nothing is explicitly being compared.

      Smyslem a cilem vychovy je dosazeni trvalejsich zmen v chovani a svobodnem jednani ditete.

      The meaning and aim of education is to achieve ??? permanent changes in the behaviour and free conduct of the child.

      (The context is a rather formal essay on child rights by a legal beagle. In most other contexts I would probably pluralize "the child".)

      We have certainly touched on this topic in the past. Petr A. once mentioned that his English teacher once mentioned that English does not normally use comparatives unless something is actually being compared. I think the situation is not quite so simple. True, this non-comparative comparative does not crop up so often in English as in Czech, though it can occur IMHO. I'd say we often insert some little word or other instead. But what? Any ideas here?

      BR

      M.
    • Hana Jarolímová
      Neslo by neco jako rather permanent nebo preferrably permanent ? H ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 18, 2012
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        Neslo by neco jako "rather permanent" nebo "preferrably permanent"?
        H


        Melvyn wrote:

        >
        >
        > Another source of perplexity is the Czech comparative used when
        > nothing is explicitly being compared.
        >
        > Smyslem a cilem vychovy je dosazeni trvalejsich zmen v chovani a
        > svobodnem jednani ditete.
        >
        > The meaning and aim of education is to achieve ??? permanent changes
        > in the behaviour and free conduct of the child.
        >
        > (The context is a rather formal essay on child rights by a legal
        > beagle. In most other contexts I would probably pluralize "the child".)
        >
        > We have certainly touched on this topic in the past. Petr A. once
        > mentioned that his English teacher once mentioned that English does
        > not normally use comparatives unless something is actually being
        > compared. I think the situation is not quite so simple. True, this
        > non-comparative comparative does not crop up so often in English as in
        > Czech, though it can occur IMHO. I'd say we often insert some little
        > word or other instead. But what? Any ideas here?
        >
        > BR
        >
        > M.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > __________ Informace od ESET NOD32 Antivirus, verze databaze 7229
        > (20120618) __________
        >
        > Tuto zpravu proveril ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
        >
        > http://www.eset.cz




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Valerie Talacko
        In this particular sentence, I think it s a case of choosing another word. We can t simply say permanent, because we re not talking about something as
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 18, 2012
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          In this particular sentence, I think it's a case of choosing another
          word. We can't simply say "permanent," because we're not talking about
          something as definite as that (hence the comparative in Czech). So I'd
          suggest "long-term changes."

          Valerie

          On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 12:39 +0000, "Melvyn" wrote:
          > Another source of perplexity is the Czech comparative used when nothing is explicitly being compared.
          >
          > Smyslem a cilem vychovy je dosazeni trvalejsich zmen v chovani a svobodnem jednani ditete.
          >
          > The meaning and aim of education is to achieve ??? permanent changes in the behaviour and free conduct of the child.
          >
          > (The context is a rather formal essay on child rights by a legal beagle. In most other contexts I would probably pluralize "the child".)
          >
          > We have certainly touched on this topic in the past. Petr A. once mentioned that his English teacher once mentioned that English does not normally use comparatives unless something is actually being compared. I think the situation is not quite so simple. True, this non-comparative comparative does not crop up so often in English as in Czech, though it can occur IMHO. I'd say we often insert some little word or other instead. But what? Any ideas here?
          >
          > BR
          >
          > M.
          >
          > _______________________________________________
          > Czechlist mailing list
          > Czechlist@...
          > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist



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        • Matej Klimes
          Ahoj Melvyne, I don t feel that as a comparative... to my Czech ears, it sounds natural, something like (more) permanent - OK, that s a comparative, but it
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 18, 2012
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            Ahoj Melvyne,

            I don't 'feel' that as a comparative... to my Czech ears, it sounds
            natural, something like (more) permanent - OK, that's a comparative,
            but it can be used standalone (we don't have to say more than what),
            can't it?

            Other avenues may include:

            long-lasting
            sustained

            M




            ------ Original Message ------
            From: "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...>
            To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: 18.6.2012 14:39:09
            Subject: [Czechlist] ISSUE: Non-comparative comparative
            > Another source of perplexity is the Czech comparative used when
            >nothing is explicitly being compared.
            >
            >Smyslem a cilem vychovy je dosazeni trvalejsich zmen v chovani a
            >svobodnem jednani ditete.
            >
            >The meaning and aim of education is to achieve ??? permanent changes
            >in the behaviour and free conduct of the child.
            >
            >(The context is a rather formal essay on child rights by a legal
            >beagle. In most other contexts I would probably pluralize "the child".)
            >
            >We have certainly touched on this topic in the past. Petr A. once
            >mentioned that his English teacher once mentioned that English does
            >not normally use comparatives unless something is actually being
            >compared. I think the situation is not quite so simple. True, this
            >non-comparative comparative does not crop up so often in English as in
            >Czech, though it can occur IMHO. I'd say we often insert some little
            >word or other instead. But what? Any ideas here?
            >
            >BR
            >
            >M.
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • James Kirchner
            After I returned from the Czech Republic, I found myself using a lot of non-comparative comparatives, and nobody even blinked. I was probably using them in
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 18, 2012
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              After I returned from the Czech Republic, I found myself using a lot of non-comparative comparatives, and nobody even blinked. I was probably using them in the right places, but I certainly now use them more often than typical Americans.

              But native English speakers do use them. A young American woman once told me, "In high school, my brother used to date ... um ... slower girls...," meaning that he dated mentally retarded girls. We also help "those less fortunate".

              At other times we add words to the same effect. One popular word for that purpose is "somewhat".

              I think that in your example, a typical egghead would write "more or less permanent changes".

              Jamie

              On Jun 18, 2012, at 8:39 AM, Melvyn wrote:

              > Another source of perplexity is the Czech comparative used when nothing is explicitly being compared.
              >
              > Smyslem a cilem vychovy je dosazeni trvalejsich zmen v chovani a svobodnem jednani ditete.
              >
              > The meaning and aim of education is to achieve ??? permanent changes in the behaviour and free conduct of the child.
              >
              > (The context is a rather formal essay on child rights by a legal beagle. In most other contexts I would probably pluralize "the child".)
              >
              > We have certainly touched on this topic in the past. Petr A. once mentioned that his English teacher once mentioned that English does not normally use comparatives unless something is actually being compared. I think the situation is not quite so simple. True, this non-comparative comparative does not crop up so often in English as in Czech, though it can occur IMHO. I'd say we often insert some little word or other instead. But what? Any ideas here?
              >
              > BR
              >
              > M.
              >
              > _______________________________________________
              > Czechlist mailing list
              > Czechlist@...
              > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


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            • Martin Janda
              Permanent-ish? :-) Martin
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 18, 2012
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                Permanent-ish? :-)
                Martin

                Dne 18.6.2012 14:51, Matej Klimes napsal(a):
                >
                > Ahoj Melvyne,
                >
                > I don't 'feel' that as a comparative... to my Czech ears, it sounds
                > natural, something like (more) permanent - OK, that's a comparative,
                > but it can be used standalone (we don't have to say more than what),
                > can't it?
                >
                > Other avenues may include:
                >
                > long-lasting
                > sustained
                >
                > M
                >
                >
                >
                > ------ Original Message ------
                > From: "Melvyn" <zehrovak@... <mailto:zehrovak%40dr.com>>
                > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: 18.6.2012 14:39:09
                > Subject: [Czechlist] ISSUE: Non-comparative comparative
                > > Another source of perplexity is the Czech comparative used when
                > >nothing is explicitly being compared.
                > >
                > >Smyslem a cilem vychovy je dosazeni trvalejsich zmen v chovani a
                > >svobodnem jednani ditete.
                > >
                > >The meaning and aim of education is to achieve ??? permanent changes
                > >in the behaviour and free conduct of the child.
                > >
                > >(The context is a rather formal essay on child rights by a legal
                > >beagle. In most other contexts I would probably pluralize "the child".)
                > >
                > >We have certainly touched on this topic in the past. Petr A. once
                > >mentioned that his English teacher once mentioned that English does
                > >not normally use comparatives unless something is actually being
                > >compared. I think the situation is not quite so simple. True, this
                > >non-comparative comparative does not crop up so often in English as in
                > >Czech, though it can occur IMHO. I'd say we often insert some little
                > >word or other instead. But what? Any ideas here?
                > >
                > >BR
                > >
                > >M.
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
              • Liz
                What Valerie said. We did bring up the topic a couple of years ago and I came away with the understanding that -er = relatively. But relatively permanent makes
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 18, 2012
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                  What Valerie said.

                  We did bring up the topic a couple of years ago and I came away with the understanding that -er = relatively. But relatively permanent makes as much sense as relatively dead.

                  - Liz

                  --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Valerie Talacko <valerie@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > In this particular sentence, I think it's a case of choosing another
                  > word. We can't simply say "permanent," because we're not talking about
                  > something as definite as that (hence the comparative in Czech). So I'd
                  > suggest "long-term changes."
                  >
                  > Valerie
                  >
                  > On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 12:39 +0000, "Melvyn" wrote:
                  > > Another source of perplexity is the Czech comparative used when nothing is explicitly being compared.
                  > >
                  > > Smyslem a cilem vychovy je dosazeni trvalejsich zmen v chovani a svobodnem jednani ditete.
                  > >
                  > > The meaning and aim of education is to achieve ??? permanent changes in the behaviour and free conduct of the child.
                  > >
                  > > (The context is a rather formal essay on child rights by a legal beagle. In most other contexts I would probably pluralize "the child".)
                  > >
                  > > We have certainly touched on this topic in the past. Petr A. once mentioned that his English teacher once mentioned that English does not normally use comparatives unless something is actually being compared. I think the situation is not quite so simple. True, this non-comparative comparative does not crop up so often in English as in Czech, though it can occur IMHO. I'd say we often insert some little word or other instead. But what? Any ideas here?
                  > >
                  > > BR
                  > >
                  > > M.
                  > >
                  > > _______________________________________________
                  > > Czechlist mailing list
                  > > Czechlist@...
                  > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > _______________________________________________
                  > Czechlist mailing list
                  > Czechlist@...
                  > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                  >
                • Pavel
                  Well, this is perfectly okay in Czech, because comparatives also have another use: Komparativ použitý bez srovnání (tzv. elativ neboli komparativ
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 19, 2012
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                    Well, this is perfectly okay in Czech, because comparatives also have another use:

                    Komparativ použitý bez srovnání (tzv. elativ neboli komparativ absolutní) slouží ke zmírnìní (eufemizaci) urèitého tvrzení.

                    So in this particular case, as was already mentioned in a previous post, this means that they want to achieve long-term (perhaps persistent) changes - permanent changes would simply sound to definitive.

                    Pavel

                    --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Another source of perplexity is the Czech comparative used when nothing is explicitly being compared.
                    >
                    > Smyslem a cilem vychovy je dosazeni trvalejsich zmen v chovani a svobodnem jednani ditete.
                    >
                    > The meaning and aim of education is to achieve ??? permanent changes in the behaviour and free conduct of the child.
                    >
                    > (The context is a rather formal essay on child rights by a legal beagle. In most other contexts I would probably pluralize "the child".)
                    >
                    > We have certainly touched on this topic in the past. Petr A. once mentioned that his English teacher once mentioned that English does not normally use comparatives unless something is actually being compared. I think the situation is not quite so simple. True, this non-comparative comparative does not crop up so often in English as in Czech, though it can occur IMHO. I'd say we often insert some little word or other instead. But what? Any ideas here?
                    >
                    > BR
                    >
                    > M.
                    >
                  • Valerie Talacko
                    That s exactly the use of the comparative to which Melvyn is referring, though. I don t think anyone s saying it s not OK in Czech :) - it s how best to
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 19, 2012
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                      That's exactly the use of the comparative to which Melvyn is referring,
                      though. I don't think anyone's saying it's not OK in Czech :) - it's
                      how best to translate it into English that's the issue.

                      Valerie

                      On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 12:01 +0000, "Pavel" wrote:
                      > Well, this is perfectly okay in Czech, because comparatives also have another use:
                      >
                      > Komparativ pouzity bez srovnani (tzv. elativ neboli komparativ absolutni) slouzi ke zmirneni (eufemizaci) urciteho tvrzeni.
                      >
                      > So in this particular case, as was already mentioned in a previous post, this means that they want to achieve long-term (perhaps persistent) changes - permanent changes would simply sound to definitive.
                      >
                      > Pavel
                      >
                      > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Another source of perplexity is the Czech comparative used when nothing is explicitly being compared.
                      > >
                      > > Smyslem a cilem vychovy je dosazeni trvalejsich zmen v chovani a svobodnem jednani ditete.
                      > >
                      > > The meaning and aim of education is to achieve ??? permanent changes in the behaviour and free conduct of the child.
                      > >
                      > > (The context is a rather formal essay on child rights by a legal beagle. In most other contexts I would probably pluralize "the child".)
                      > >
                      > > We have certainly touched on this topic in the past. Petr A. once mentioned that his English teacher once mentioned that English does not normally use comparatives unless something is actually being compared. I think the situation is not quite so simple. True, this non-comparative comparative does not crop up so often in English as in Czech, though it can occur IMHO. I'd say we often insert some little word or other instead. But what? Any ideas here?
                      > >
                      > > BR
                      > >
                      > > M.
                      > >
                      >
                      > _______________________________________________
                      > Czechlist mailing list
                      > Czechlist@...
                      > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist



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                    • Melvyn
                      ... Yes, quite. :-) It is not as if I am cursing and shaking my fist in the air. Friday is my day for obstreperousness (obstreperosity?). ... Anyway, many,
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 19, 2012
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                        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Valerie Talacko <valerie@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > That's exactly the use of the comparative to which Melvyn is referring,
                        > though. I don't think anyone's saying it's not OK in Czech :) - it's
                        > how best to translate it into English that's the issue.

                        Yes, quite. :-) It is not as if I am cursing and shaking my fist in the air. Friday is my day for obstreperousness (obstreperosity?).
                        :-))))

                        Anyway, many, many thanks to Valerie (nice idea - seek alternative lexis where possible is the moral here, I think), Matej, Jamie ("more or less" is a very interesting idea to explore in this and other contexts - "pretty much" comes to my mind, but is not quite formal enough here), Martin (I find myself looking for other postfixes), Hana J (my line of thought too), Liz, Gerry V. and Pavel J. (nice quote - where is it from?)

                        BR

                        M.
                      • Pavel
                        Right, so the question is: What means does English use to make the statement sound less definitive or more polite ( starší dáma , dlouhodobìjší zmìna ,
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jun 19, 2012
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                          Right, so the question is: What means does English use to make the statement sound less definitive or more polite ("starší dáma", "dlouhodobìjší zmìna", etc.)?

                          Pavel

                          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Valerie Talacko <valerie@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > That's exactly the use of the comparative to which Melvyn is referring,
                          > though. I don't think anyone's saying it's not OK in Czech :) - it's
                          > how best to translate it into English that's the issue.
                          >
                          > Valerie
                          >
                          > On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 12:01 +0000, "Pavel" wrote:
                          > > Well, this is perfectly okay in Czech, because comparatives also have another use:
                          > >
                          > > Komparativ pouzity bez srovnani (tzv. elativ neboli komparativ absolutni) slouzi ke zmirneni (eufemizaci) urciteho tvrzeni.
                          > >
                          > > So in this particular case, as was already mentioned in a previous post, this means that they want to achieve long-term (perhaps persistent) changes - permanent changes would simply sound to definitive.
                          > >
                          > > Pavel
                          > >
                          > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Another source of perplexity is the Czech comparative used when nothing is explicitly being compared.
                          > > >
                          > > > Smyslem a cilem vychovy je dosazeni trvalejsich zmen v chovani a svobodnem jednani ditete.
                          > > >
                          > > > The meaning and aim of education is to achieve ??? permanent changes in the behaviour and free conduct of the child.
                          > > >
                          > > > (The context is a rather formal essay on child rights by a legal beagle. In most other contexts I would probably pluralize "the child".)
                          > > >
                          > > > We have certainly touched on this topic in the past. Petr A. once mentioned that his English teacher once mentioned that English does not normally use comparatives unless something is actually being compared. I think the situation is not quite so simple. True, this non-comparative comparative does not crop up so often in English as in Czech, though it can occur IMHO. I'd say we often insert some little word or other instead. But what? Any ideas here?
                          > > >
                          > > > BR
                          > > >
                          > > > M.
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > _______________________________________________
                          > > Czechlist mailing list
                          > > Czechlist@...
                          > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > _______________________________________________
                          > Czechlist mailing list
                          > Czechlist@...
                          > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                          >
                        • James Kirchner
                          Starsi dama would, in fact, be an older lady , but if she s really old, we would call her elderly to avoid saying old . Dlouhodobejsi zmena might be
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jun 19, 2012
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                            "Starsi dama" would, in fact, be "an older lady", but if she's really old, we would call her "elderly" to avoid saying "old".

                            "Dlouhodobejsi zmena" might be "long-term change", as contrasted with "permanent change". At least that's in US business, where "long-term" means five years. :-)

                            Jamie

                            On Jun 19, 2012, at 9:37 AM, Pavel wrote:

                            > Right, so the question is: What means does English use to make the statement sound less definitive or more polite ("starsi dama", "dlouhodobejsi zmena", etc.)?
                            >
                            > Pavel
                            >
                            > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Valerie Talacko <valerie@...> wrote:
                            >>
                            >> That's exactly the use of the comparative to which Melvyn is referring,
                            >> though. I don't think anyone's saying it's not OK in Czech :) - it's
                            >> how best to translate it into English that's the issue.
                            >>
                            >> Valerie
                            >>
                            >> On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 12:01 +0000, "Pavel" wrote:
                            >>> Well, this is perfectly okay in Czech, because comparatives also have another use:
                            >>>
                            >>> Komparativ pouzity bez srovnani (tzv. elativ neboli komparativ absolutni) slouzi ke zmirneni (eufemizaci) urciteho tvrzeni.
                            >>>
                            >>> So in this particular case, as was already mentioned in a previous post, this means that they want to achieve long-term (perhaps persistent) changes - permanent changes would simply sound to definitive.
                            >>>
                            >>> Pavel
                            >>>
                            >>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@> wrote:
                            >>>>
                            >>>> Another source of perplexity is the Czech comparative used when nothing is explicitly being compared.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> Smyslem a cilem vychovy je dosazeni trvalejsich zmen v chovani a svobodnem jednani ditete.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> The meaning and aim of education is to achieve ??? permanent changes in the behaviour and free conduct of the child.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> (The context is a rather formal essay on child rights by a legal beagle. In most other contexts I would probably pluralize "the child".)
                            >>>>
                            >>>> We have certainly touched on this topic in the past. Petr A. once mentioned that his English teacher once mentioned that English does not normally use comparatives unless something is actually being compared. I think the situation is not quite so simple. True, this non-comparative comparative does not crop up so often in English as in Czech, though it can occur IMHO. I'd say we often insert some little word or other instead. But what? Any ideas here?
                            >>>>
                            >>>> BR
                            >>>>
                            >>>> M.
                            >>>>
                            >>>
                            >>> _______________________________________________
                            >>> Czechlist mailing list
                            >>> Czechlist@...
                            >>> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> _______________________________________________
                            >> Czechlist mailing list
                            >> Czechlist@...
                            >> http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            > _______________________________________________
                            > Czechlist mailing list
                            > Czechlist@...
                            > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


                            _______________________________________________
                            Czechlist mailing list
                            Czechlist@...
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                          • Petr
                            Ve svem oboru povazuji za naprosto ustalenou vazbu older nuclear power plants (shutdown of ...). Nejsou uplně stare, ale jsou starsi nez nove. Petr Adamek
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jun 19, 2012
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                              Ve svem oboru povazuji za naprosto ustalenou vazbu "older nuclear power plants" (shutdown of ...). Nejsou uplně stare, ale jsou starsi nez nove.
                              Petr Adamek
                            • Melvyn
                              Here is a nice adverbial non-comparative comparative for you. Can you improve on this? Trebaze se prvni inscenace Zahradni slavnosti (1963), respektive hra
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 6, 2012
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                                Here is a nice adverbial non-comparative comparative for you. Can you improve on this?

                                Trebaze se prvni inscenace Zahradni slavnosti (1963), respektive hra
                                sama, stala klicovou udalosti moderniho ceskeho divadla, dodnes neni
                                v ceskem kontextu historiograficky ani hloubeji analyticky
                                zpracovana.

                                Although the first production of The Garden Party (1963) came to
                                be a key event in modern Czech theatre, as did the play itself, it
                                has not yet been dealt with historiographically or to any in-depth
                                extent analytically within the Czech context.

                                BR

                                M.
                              • Matej Klimes
                                I just had the misfortune of having to translate a part of Google Analytics Terms of Service into Czech The entire wording of the current English version is
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jul 6, 2012
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                                  I just had the misfortune of having to translate a part of Google
                                  Analytics Terms of Service into Czech

                                  The entire wording of the current English version is here:
                                  http://www.google.com/intl/en_uk/analytics/tos_content.html

                                  My bit was the Privacy, Section 8, it's the bit that you are required
                                  to have on your Website if it uses GA..

                                  I was feeling lazy, so I started googling around, thinking that it must
                                  be available in Czech somewhere... first I found bits at various
                                  Websites - these were quite good and I could use them with some
                                  tweaking, BUT THEN I discovered - and make sure you sit down, OK,
                                  chances are you already are - THIS...

                                  It's bits of the Czech version of the thing as provided by Google (the
                                  English version changed since and the Czech remains the same -
                                  different section numbers and probably some wording too, but you are
                                  agreeing to the current English version as defined in one of the
                                  paragraphs, which is entirely different!!!! I'm not too concerned about
                                  that, it's all yaddi daa anyway)..

                                  But have a look at how the Czech text goes, for example in the section
                                  I dealt with, which is #7 in this Czech version - the official version
                                  on the GA site is even more different, but I stumbled upon this comment
                                  by an IT geek - he mostly comments on the legal and practical aspects,
                                  but his piece contains the closest version in Czech I could find...
                                  spend a minute looking at the text here:

                                  http://www.dlouhychvost.cz/smluvni-ujednani-google-analytics/#7

                                  compare it to the original if you want to (section 8 in the first link
                                  above) - you really don't have to, though, as the "Czech" tells you
                                  exactly what the original was - it was obviously translated by Google
                                  Translate (Or is Google secretly using something else?, the GT result
                                  is pretty close if you try, though) and then edited (very slightly and
                                  very badly) by a human (or possibly by some Google-made thing that
                                  edits GT results that hasn't been released yet????)..

                                  (and there are versions out there that are even worse..)

                                  Now how do you think the text was created (GT/semi-human
                                  edit/update/GT/no human or anything is my guess)?

                                  Next time someone starts talking about how good machine translation is
                                  getting, just show them this..

                                  M


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Tomas Mosler
                                  I m sorry, basically you want to point out the risks of GT (I don t object to that)? I m just a bit confused with the first part, not sure if it was intended
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jul 6, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I'm sorry, basically you want to point out the risks of GT (I don't object to that)? I'm just a bit confused with the first part, not sure if it was intended just as an introduction to the "horror" or if I'm missing something.

                                    Anyway, if they asked for a new translation, doesn't that at least imply they were knowingly not satisfied with the original Czech version, whichever way it was produced?

                                    PS There is a mistake in the final (?) GA TOS translation in section 8 at http://www.google.com/intl/cs/analytics/tos_content.html

                                    Tomas


                                    --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I just had the misfortune of having to translate a part of Google
                                    > Analytics Terms of Service into Czech
                                    >
                                    > The entire wording of the current English version is here:
                                    > http://www.google.com/intl/en_uk/analytics/tos_content.html
                                    >
                                    > My bit was the Privacy, Section 8, it's the bit that you are required
                                    > to have on your Website if it uses GA..
                                    >
                                    > I was feeling lazy, so I started googling around, thinking that it must
                                    > be available in Czech somewhere... first I found bits at various
                                    > Websites - these were quite good and I could use them with some
                                    > tweaking, BUT THEN I discovered - and make sure you sit down, OK,
                                    > chances are you already are - THIS...
                                    >
                                    > It's bits of the Czech version of the thing as provided by Google (the
                                    > English version changed since and the Czech remains the same -
                                    > different section numbers and probably some wording too, but you are
                                    > agreeing to the current English version as defined in one of the
                                    > paragraphs, which is entirely different!!!! I'm not too concerned about
                                    > that, it's all yaddi daa anyway)..
                                    >
                                    > But have a look at how the Czech text goes, for example in the section
                                    > I dealt with, which is #7 in this Czech version - the official version
                                    > on the GA site is even more different, but I stumbled upon this comment
                                    > by an IT geek - he mostly comments on the legal and practical aspects,
                                    > but his piece contains the closest version in Czech I could find...
                                    > spend a minute looking at the text here:
                                    >
                                    > http://www.dlouhychvost.cz/smluvni-ujednani-google-analytics/#7
                                    >
                                    > compare it to the original if you want to (section 8 in the first link
                                    > above) - you really don't have to, though, as the "Czech" tells you
                                    > exactly what the original was - it was obviously translated by Google
                                    > Translate (Or is Google secretly using something else?, the GT result
                                    > is pretty close if you try, though) and then edited (very slightly and
                                    > very badly) by a human (or possibly by some Google-made thing that
                                    > edits GT results that hasn't been released yet????)..
                                    >
                                    > (and there are versions out there that are even worse..)
                                    >
                                    > Now how do you think the text was created (GT/semi-human
                                    > edit/update/GT/no human or anything is my guess)?
                                    >
                                    > Next time someone starts talking about how good machine translation is
                                    > getting, just show them this..
                                    >
                                    > M
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • Matej Klimes
                                    Cau Tome, 1) the first part was just intended to say how I came across it, don t think anyone reads that out of their own free will, not anyone I d like to
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jul 6, 2012
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                                      Cau Tome,

                                      1) the first part was just intended to say how I came across it, don't
                                      think anyone reads that out of their own free will, not anyone I'd like
                                      to meet, anyway :)

                                      2) The client in question did not know how bad the Czech version was,
                                      or possibly that it even existed.. they just wanted it translated..

                                      I don't want to go into a whole theoretical debate, but my assignment
                                      was a text that camne out of the ENG version and was going to be put
                                      onto their Czech Website.. of course I didn't just copy and paste the
                                      bad Czech version, I fixed it ... but then the user agrees to whatever
                                      I said, not to what's on GA Czech Website (to ad another dimension, it
                                      says somewhere that the user agrees to the current version available at
                                      www... - and that link points to the ENG version, so all this is
                                      pointless)..

                                      But you have to wonder at a big company like that, with a Czech
                                      subsidiary operating locally, doing this sort of thing.. or do you?
                                      It'd be another matter if the content was in some obscure language in
                                      whose country Google isn't directly/physically present, but you'd
                                      assume someone at Google Czech at least glanced at this...

                                      Anyway, there are lots of similar examples, I just found it funny that
                                      Google itself has fallen into its own GT trap...

                                      M


                                      ------ Original Message ------
                                      From: "Tomas Mosler" <tomas.mosler@...>
                                      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: 6.7.2012 13:10:14
                                      Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Google translate revisited - Google caught
                                      semi-dressed [which is what they reckon 'v nedbalkach' is]
                                      > I'm sorry, basically you want to point out the risks of GT (I don't
                                      >object to that)? I'm just a bit confused with the first part, not sure
                                      >if it was intended just as an introduction to the "horror" or if I'm
                                      >missing something.
                                      >
                                      >Anyway, if they asked for a new translation, doesn't that at least
                                      >imply they were knowingly not satisfied with the original Czech
                                      >version, whichever way it was produced?
                                      >
                                      >PS There is a mistake in the final (?) GA TOS translation in section 8
                                      >at http://www.google.com/intl/cs/analytics/tos_content.html
                                      >
                                      >Tomas
                                      >
                                      >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >> I just had the misfortune of having to translate a part of Google
                                      >> Analytics Terms of Service into Czech
                                      >>
                                      >> The entire wording of the current English version is here:
                                      >> http://www.google.com/intl/en_uk/analytics/tos_content.html
                                      >>
                                      >> My bit was the Privacy, Section 8, it's the bit that you are
                                      >required
                                      >> to have on your Website if it uses GA..
                                      >>
                                      >> I was feeling lazy, so I started googling around, thinking that it
                                      >must
                                      >> be available in Czech somewhere... first I found bits at various
                                      >> Websites - these were quite good and I could use them with some
                                      >> tweaking, BUT THEN I discovered - and make sure you sit down, OK,
                                      >> chances are you already are - THIS...
                                      >>
                                      >> It's bits of the Czech version of the thing as provided by Google
                                      >(the
                                      >> English version changed since and the Czech remains the same -
                                      >> different section numbers and probably some wording too, but you are
                                      >> agreeing to the current English version as defined in one of the
                                      >> paragraphs, which is entirely different!!!! I'm not too concerned
                                      >about
                                      >> that, it's all yaddi daa anyway)..
                                      >>
                                      >> But have a look at how the Czech text goes, for example in the
                                      >section
                                      >> I dealt with, which is #7 in this Czech version - the official
                                      >version
                                      >> on the GA site is even more different, but I stumbled upon this
                                      >comment
                                      >> by an IT geek - he mostly comments on the legal and practical
                                      >aspects,
                                      >> but his piece contains the closest version in Czech I could find...
                                      >> spend a minute looking at the text here:
                                      >>
                                      >> http://www.dlouhychvost.cz/smluvni-ujednani-google-analytics/#7
                                      >>
                                      >> compare it to the original if you want to (section 8 in the first
                                      >link
                                      >> above) - you really don't have to, though, as the "Czech" tells you
                                      >> exactly what the original was - it was obviously translated by
                                      >Google
                                      >> Translate (Or is Google secretly using something else?, the GT
                                      >result
                                      >> is pretty close if you try, though) and then edited (very slightly
                                      >and
                                      >> very badly) by a human (or possibly by some Google-made thing that
                                      >> edits GT results that hasn't been released yet????)..
                                      >>
                                      >> (and there are versions out there that are even worse..)
                                      >>
                                      >> Now how do you think the text was created (GT/semi-human
                                      >> edit/update/GT/no human or anything is my guess)?
                                      >>
                                      >> Next time someone starts talking about how good machine translation
                                      >is
                                      >> getting, just show them this..
                                      >>
                                      >> M
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Tomas Mosler
                                      ... Hmm, do you think they really somehow didn t know the text is already translated ? That would sound to me similarly strange as the fact that the GT text
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jul 6, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        > 2) The client in question did not know how bad the Czech version was,
                                        > or possibly that it even existed.. they just wanted it translated..

                                        Hmm, do you think they really somehow didn't know the text is already "translated"? That would sound to me similarly strange as the fact that the GT text was published on their website.

                                        Tomas
                                      • Matej Klimes
                                        I m 99.9% sure the client didn t know.. it s a multinational company with HQ in the US, it took me quite a bit of time to find it - and then more to find the
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jul 6, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I'm 99.9% sure the client didn't know.. it's a multinational company
                                          with HQ in the US, it took me quite a bit of time to find it - and then
                                          more to find the right version (which happens to be wrong/not
                                          current)...

                                          The ToS are localised for some countries and will show up in their
                                          language (well, an attempt at) at the localised GA website and not
                                          localised and shows up in English eventhough other stuff may be
                                          localised (this is the case of Slovakia, for example, see the intro of
                                          that geek's blog entry..) probably better if all the translations are
                                          as bad as this one..

                                          M

                                          ------ Original Message ------
                                          From: "Tomas Mosler" <tomas.mosler@...>
                                          To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: 6.7.2012 15:16:44
                                          Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Google translate revisited - Google caught
                                          semi-dressed [which is what they reckon 'v nedbalkach' is]
                                          > > 2) The client in question did not know how bad the Czech version
                                          >was,
                                          >> or possibly that it even existed.. they just wanted it translated..
                                          >
                                          >Hmm, do you think they really somehow didn't know the text is already
                                          >"translated"? That would sound to me similarly strange as the fact
                                          >that the GT text was published on their website.
                                          >
                                          >Tomas
                                          >
                                          >


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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