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Re: [Czechlist] Predsedkyne predstavenstva

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  • Valerie Talacko
    Using -woman instead of -man is completely normal practice in English, e.g. kinsman, kinswoman. ... And behold, Elisabeth thy kinswoman... Say unto wisdom,
    Message 1 of 20 , May 2, 2012
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      Using -woman instead of -man is completely normal practice in English,
      e.g. kinsman, kinswoman.

      >From the King James Bible:

      "And behold, Elisabeth thy kinswoman..."
      "Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy
      kinswoman"

      Valerie




      On Wed, 2012-05-02 at 09:54 +0200, "Charlie Stanford Translations"
      wrote:
      > Perhaps I am wrong and out-of-touch but I don't think women usually mind being referred to as "Madame Chairman" - to me it sounds much more natural than "Madame Chairwoman" and I always just use chairman, irrespective of gender.
      >
      > Here is what Maggie Thatcher had to say about it (perhaps not the most feminine of sources...) in a speech to the Conservative Women's Conference: 'Conservative women are above all practical. They do not attempt to advance women's rights by addressing you, Madame Chairman, as Madame Chairperson or Madame Chair, or worse, simply as Chair. With feminists like that who needs male chauvinists?'
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Matej Klimes
      > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 9:31 AM
      > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Predsedkyne predstavenstva
      >
      >
      >
      > Thanks Liz,
      >
      > this is just a one-off in an article intro, but good to know.
      >
      > I've gone with -woman
      >
      > M
      > ------ Original Message ------
      > From: "Liz" <spacils@...>
      > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: 2.5.2012 9:24:41
      > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Predsedkyne predstavenstva
      > > Hi Matej,
      > >
      > >IMO, consistency what's most important: either Chairman for males and
      > >Chairwoman for females, OR Chairperson for all genders.
      > >
      > >Chairman for males and Chairperson for females makes my upper lip curl.
      > >
      > >Another gender-neutral form, "Chair", is used widely (and
      > >consistently) in academia.
      > >
      > >Someone once tried to explain to me that the -man in Chairman is from
      > >the Latin "manus" (hand), making "Chairman" gender-neutral, but that
      > >seems to be one of those popular urban myths...
      > >
      > >Cheers
      > >
      > >Liz
      > >
      > >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
      > >>
      > >> In a quote or an article introduction (i.e. Predsedkyne
      > >predstavenstva
      > >> spolecnosti XX Mrs YY), would you say Chairwoman or Chairperson??
      > >>
      > >> Some sources including Forbes use Chairwoman, seems more natural...
      > >> what do you think?
      > >>
      > >> Thanks
      > >>
      > >> M
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > Czechlist mailing list
      > Czechlist@...
      > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist



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    • Valerie Talacko
      what I meant was, why do you think chairwoman sounds unnatural?
      Message 2 of 20 , May 2, 2012
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        what I meant was, why do you think chairwoman sounds unnatural?


        On Wed, 2012-05-02 at 10:06 +0200, Valerie Talacko wrote:
        >
        > Using -woman instead of -man is completely normal practice in English,
        > e.g. kinsman, kinswoman.
        >
        > >From the King James Bible:
        >
        > "And behold, Elisabeth thy kinswoman..."
        > "Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy
        > kinswoman"
        >
        > Valerie
        >
        > On Wed, 2012-05-02 at 09:54 +0200, "Charlie Stanford Translations"
        > wrote:
        > > Perhaps I am wrong and out-of-touch but I don't think women usually
        > mind being referred to as "Madame Chairman" - to me it sounds much
        > more natural than "Madame Chairwoman" and I always just use chairman,
        > irrespective of gender.
        > >
        > > Here is what Maggie Thatcher had to say about it (perhaps not the
        > most feminine of sources...) in a speech to the Conservative Women's
        > Conference: 'Conservative women are above all practical. They do not
        > attempt to advance women's rights by addressing you, Madame Chairman,
        > as Madame Chairperson or Madame Chair, or worse, simply as Chair. With
        > feminists like that who needs male chauvinists?'
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: Matej Klimes
        > > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 9:31 AM
        > > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Predsedkyne predstavenstva
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Thanks Liz,
        > >
        > > this is just a one-off in an article intro, but good to know.
        > >
        > > I've gone with -woman
        > >
        > > M
        > > ------ Original Message ------
        > > From: "Liz" <spacils@...>
        > > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: 2.5.2012 9:24:41
        > > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Predsedkyne predstavenstva
        > > > Hi Matej,
        > > >
        > > >IMO, consistency what's most important: either Chairman for males
        > and
        > > >Chairwoman for females, OR Chairperson for all genders.
        > > >
        > > >Chairman for males and Chairperson for females makes my upper lip
        > curl.
        > > >
        > > >Another gender-neutral form, "Chair", is used widely (and
        > > >consistently) in academia.
        > > >
        > > >Someone once tried to explain to me that the -man in Chairman is
        > from
        > > >the Latin "manus" (hand), making "Chairman" gender-neutral, but
        > that
        > > >seems to be one of those popular urban myths...
        > > >
        > > >Cheers
        > > >
        > > >Liz
        > > >
        > > >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...>
        > wrote:
        > > >>
        > > >> In a quote or an article introduction (i.e. Predsedkyne
        > > >predstavenstva
        > > >> spolecnosti XX Mrs YY), would you say Chairwoman or Chairperson??
        > > >>
        > > >> Some sources including Forbes use Chairwoman, seems more
        > natural...
        > > >> what do you think?
        > > >>
        > > >> Thanks
        > > >>
        > > >> M
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >>
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > > _______________________________________________
        > > Czechlist mailing list
        > > Czechlist@...
        > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
        >
        > _______________________________________________
        > Czechlist mailing list
        > Czechlist@...
        > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Charlie Stanford Translations
        Perhaps you are right in certain contexts Valerie, but in business Chairman seems much more widespread. Christine Lagarde for instance is referred to as
        Message 3 of 20 , May 2, 2012
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          Perhaps you are right in certain contexts Valerie, but in business Chairman seems much more widespread. Christine Lagarde for instance is referred to as "Chairman of the IMF", Irene Rosenfeld is "Chairman of (the Board at) Kraft", Meg Whitman is "Chairman of the Board at eBay", Indra Nooyi is "Chairman of the Board at Pepsi" - you hardly ever find them referred to as Chairwoman. Try Googling their names followed by Chairman or Chairwoman and you will see what I mean.
          Charlie

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Valerie Talacko
          To: czechlist@...
          Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 10:06 AM
          Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Predsedkyne predstavenstva



          Using -woman instead of -man is completely normal practice in English,
          e.g. kinsman, kinswoman.

          >From the King James Bible:

          "And behold, Elisabeth thy kinswoman..."
          "Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy
          kinswoman"

          Valerie

          On Wed, 2012-05-02 at 09:54 +0200, "Charlie Stanford Translations"
          wrote:
          > Perhaps I am wrong and out-of-touch but I don't think women usually mind being referred to as "Madame Chairman" - to me it sounds much more natural than "Madame Chairwoman" and I always just use chairman, irrespective of gender.
          >
          > Here is what Maggie Thatcher had to say about it (perhaps not the most feminine of sources...) in a speech to the Conservative Women's Conference: 'Conservative women are above all practical. They do not attempt to advance women's rights by addressing you, Madame Chairman, as Madame Chairperson or Madame Chair, or worse, simply as Chair. With feminists like that who needs male chauvinists?'
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Matej Klimes
          > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 9:31 AM
          > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Predsedkyne predstavenstva
          >
          >
          >
          > Thanks Liz,
          >
          > this is just a one-off in an article intro, but good to know.
          >
          > I've gone with -woman
          >
          > M
          > ------ Original Message ------
          > From: "Liz" <spacils@...>
          > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: 2.5.2012 9:24:41
          > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Predsedkyne predstavenstva
          > > Hi Matej,
          > >
          > >IMO, consistency what's most important: either Chairman for males and
          > >Chairwoman for females, OR Chairperson for all genders.
          > >
          > >Chairman for males and Chairperson for females makes my upper lip curl.
          > >
          > >Another gender-neutral form, "Chair", is used widely (and
          > >consistently) in academia.
          > >
          > >Someone once tried to explain to me that the -man in Chairman is from
          > >the Latin "manus" (hand), making "Chairman" gender-neutral, but that
          > >seems to be one of those popular urban myths...
          > >
          > >Cheers
          > >
          > >Liz
          > >
          > >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
          > >>
          > >> In a quote or an article introduction (i.e. Predsedkyne
          > >predstavenstva
          > >> spolecnosti XX Mrs YY), would you say Chairwoman or Chairperson??
          > >>
          > >> Some sources including Forbes use Chairwoman, seems more natural...
          > >> what do you think?
          > >>
          > >> Thanks
          > >>
          > >> M
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > _______________________________________________
          > Czechlist mailing list
          > Czechlist@...
          > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist

          _______________________________________________
          Czechlist mailing list
          Czechlist@...
          http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Tomas Mosler
          Just out of curiosity - cannot be -man understood as a universal/neutral form derived from the meaning of person/human, rather than male? Just like we don t
          Message 4 of 20 , May 2, 2012
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            Just out of curiosity - cannot be "-man" understood as a universal/neutral form derived from the meaning of person/human, rather than male? Just like we don't say mankind and womankind? :) Or what makes the difference that "mankind" is still gender neutral?

            Tomas


            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Liz" <spacils@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Matej,
            >
            > IMO, consistency what's most important: either Chairman for males and Chairwoman for females, OR Chairperson for all genders.
            >
            > Chairman for males and Chairperson for females makes my upper lip curl.
            >
            > Another gender-neutral form, "Chair", is used widely (and consistently) in academia.
            >
            > Someone once tried to explain to me that the -man in Chairman is from the Latin "manus" (hand), making "Chairman" gender-neutral, but that seems to be one of those popular urban myths...
            >
            > Cheers
            >
            > Liz
          • Liz
            Penguin: - chairman or chairwoman noun (pl chairmen or chairwomen) 1 somebody who presides over or heads a meeting, committee, organization.... - chairperson
            Message 5 of 20 , May 2, 2012
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              Penguin:

              - chairman or chairwoman noun (pl chairmen or chairwomen) 1 somebody who presides over or heads a meeting, committee, organization....

              - chairperson noun (pl chairpersons) a chairman or chairwoman

              - womankind noun female human beings; women as a whole, esp as distinguished from men.


              My super-ancient Merriam-Webster offers only chairman, but I see online they have

              - chairwoman: a woman who serves as chairman


              As to "Madam Chairman", here's a little entertainment from Canada:
              http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/34872-deputy-speaker-draws-line-%E2%80%98madam-chairman%E2%80%99

              - Liz

              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Tomas Mosler" <tomas.mosler@...> wrote:
              >
              > Just out of curiosity - cannot be "-man" understood as a universal/neutral form derived from the meaning of person/human, rather than male? Just like we don't say mankind and womankind? :) Or what makes the difference that "mankind" is still gender neutral?
              >
              > Tomas
              >
              >
              > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Liz" <spacils@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Matej,
              > >
              > > IMO, consistency what's most important: either Chairman for males and Chairwoman for females, OR Chairperson for all genders.
              > >
              > > Chairman for males and Chairperson for females makes my upper lip curl.
              > >
              > > Another gender-neutral form, "Chair", is used widely (and consistently) in academia.
              > >
              > > Someone once tried to explain to me that the -man in Chairman is from the Latin "manus" (hand), making "Chairman" gender-neutral, but that seems to be one of those popular urban myths...
              > >
              > > Cheers
              > >
              > > Liz
              >
            • Charlie Stanford Translations
              Maybe things will change Liz but Madame Chairman is nearly 4 times more common than Madame Chairwoman according to Google hits (fairly unscientific method
              Message 6 of 20 , May 2, 2012
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                Maybe things will change Liz but "Madame Chairman" is nearly 4 times more common than "Madame Chairwoman" according to Google hits (fairly unscientific method but still...). I think the Canadian Deputy Speaker is out on a bit of a limb.

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Liz
                To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:15 AM
                Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Predsedkyne predstavenstva



                Penguin:

                - chairman or chairwoman noun (pl chairmen or chairwomen) 1 somebody who presides over or heads a meeting, committee, organization....

                - chairperson noun (pl chairpersons) a chairman or chairwoman

                - womankind noun female human beings; women as a whole, esp as distinguished from men.

                My super-ancient Merriam-Webster offers only chairman, but I see online they have

                - chairwoman: a woman who serves as chairman

                As to "Madam Chairman", here's a little entertainment from Canada:
                http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/34872-deputy-speaker-draws-line-%E2%80%98madam-chairman%E2%80%99

                - Liz

                --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Tomas Mosler" <tomas.mosler@...> wrote:
                >
                > Just out of curiosity - cannot be "-man" understood as a universal/neutral form derived from the meaning of person/human, rather than male? Just like we don't say mankind and womankind? :) Or what makes the difference that "mankind" is still gender neutral?
                >
                > Tomas
                >
                >
                > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Liz" <spacils@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Matej,
                > >
                > > IMO, consistency what's most important: either Chairman for males and Chairwoman for females, OR Chairperson for all genders.
                > >
                > > Chairman for males and Chairperson for females makes my upper lip curl.
                > >
                > > Another gender-neutral form, "Chair", is used widely (and consistently) in academia.
                > >
                > > Someone once tried to explain to me that the -man in Chairman is from the Latin "manus" (hand), making "Chairman" gender-neutral, but that seems to be one of those popular urban myths...
                > >
                > > Cheers
                > >
                > > Liz
                >





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Matej Klimes
                I m only a non-NS, but I feel Madam is added there to avoid using chairwoman and still address the person as a woman... doesn t work in my case - or most cases
                Message 7 of 20 , May 2, 2012
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                  I'm only a non-NS, but I feel Madam is added there to avoid using
                  chairwoman and still address the person as a woman... doesn't work in
                  my case - or most cases in writing

                  I decided for chairwoman because it's a Czech person and English
                  readers may not guess she's a woman from just the name, anyway, wasn't
                  that important

                  Thanks again

                  M



                  ------ Original Message ------
                  From: "Charlie Stanford Translations"
                  <charliestanfordtranslations@...>
                  To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: 2.5.2012 11:50:24
                  Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Predsedkyne predstavenstva
                  > Maybe things will change Liz but "Madame Chairman" is nearly 4 times
                  >more common than "Madame Chairwoman" according to Google hits (fairly
                  >unscientific method but still...). I think the Canadian Deputy Speaker
                  >is out on a bit of a limb.
                  >
                  >----- Original Message -----
                  >From: Liz
                  >To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                  >Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:15 AM
                  >Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Predsedkyne predstavenstva
                  >
                  >Penguin:
                  >
                  >- chairman or chairwoman noun (pl chairmen or chairwomen) 1 somebody
                  >who presides over or heads a meeting, committee, organization....
                  >
                  >- chairperson noun (pl chairpersons) a chairman or chairwoman
                  >
                  >- womankind noun female human beings; women as a whole, esp as
                  >distinguished from men.
                  >
                  >My super-ancient Merriam-Webster offers only chairman, but I see
                  >online they have
                  >
                  >- chairwoman: a woman who serves as chairman
                  >
                  >As to "Madam Chairman", here's a little entertainment from Canada:
                  >http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/34872-deputy-speaker-draws-line-%E2%80%98madam-chairman%E2%80%99
                  >
                  >- Liz
                  >
                  >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Tomas Mosler" <tomas.mosler@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> Just out of curiosity - cannot be "-man" understood as a
                  >universal/neutral form derived from the meaning of person/human,
                  >rather than male? Just like we don't say mankind and womankind? :) Or
                  >what makes the difference that "mankind" is still gender neutral?
                  >>
                  >> Tomas
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Liz" <spacils@> wrote:
                  >> >
                  >> > Hi Matej,
                  >> >
                  >> > IMO, consistency what's most important: either Chairman for males
                  >and Chairwoman for females, OR Chairperson for all genders.
                  >> >
                  >> > Chairman for males and Chairperson for females makes my upper lip
                  >curl.
                  >> >
                  >> > Another gender-neutral form, "Chair", is used widely (and
                  >consistently) in academia.
                  >> >
                  >> > Someone once tried to explain to me that the -man in Chairman is
                  >from the Latin "manus" (hand), making "Chairman" gender-neutral, but
                  >that seems to be one of those popular urban myths...
                  >> >
                  >> > Cheers
                  >> >
                  >> > Liz
                  >>
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • James Kirchner
                  Madam is actually there to avoid saying Mr. :-) We do address people as Mr. President , Mr. Chairman , etc., and Madam is used for women in that
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 2, 2012
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                    "Madam" is actually there to avoid saying "Mr." :-) We do address people as "Mr. President", "Mr. Chairman", etc., and "Madam" is used for women in that context. However, these words are used only when addressing the chair directly and not when referring to him or her in the third person.

                    As you can see, the usage of the three terms is all over the place, but I think that the type of feminist who is hypersensitive about being called "chairwoman" instead of "chairman" does not rise to the level of chairman anyway. This may be why the Google search resulted in more references to women as "chairman" than as "chairwoman".

                    I tend to avoid the problem by using "chair", but this can cause problems in cases where it's not clear whether the speaker is talking about a person or an actual piece of furniture, as when my graduate advisor told me, "I have to go to a meeting this afternoon. We're getting a new chair for the English department." It took about three hours to for it to dawn on me that an armchair was not being purchased by committee.

                    In other expressions, sometimes they stick and sometimes they don't. When I was in art school, all professors and therefore students were condemning use of the word "sculptress", and we seamlessly switched to "sculptor" without confusion. However, the entertainment world tried to eliminate the term "actress" with the result that they now constantly say "woman actress". Apparently the gender distinction is important in some professions and not others.

                    Jamie

                    On May 2, 2012, at 6:08 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:

                    > I'm only a non-NS, but I feel Madam is added there to avoid using
                    > chairwoman and still address the person as a woman... doesn't work in
                    > my case - or most cases in writing
                    >
                    > I decided for chairwoman because it's a Czech person and English
                    > readers may not guess she's a woman from just the name, anyway, wasn't
                    > that important
                    >
                    > Thanks again
                    >
                    > M
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------ Original Message ------
                    > From: "Charlie Stanford Translations"
                    > <charliestanfordtranslations@...>
                    > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: 2.5.2012 11:50:24
                    > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Predsedkyne predstavenstva
                    >> Maybe things will change Liz but "Madame Chairman" is nearly 4 times
                    >> more common than "Madame Chairwoman" according to Google hits (fairly
                    >> unscientific method but still...). I think the Canadian Deputy Speaker
                    >> is out on a bit of a limb.
                    >>
                    >> ----- Original Message -----
                    >> From: Liz
                    >> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                    >> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:15 AM
                    >> Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Predsedkyne predstavenstva
                    >>
                    >> Penguin:
                    >>
                    >> - chairman or chairwoman noun (pl chairmen or chairwomen) 1 somebody
                    >> who presides over or heads a meeting, committee, organization....
                    >>
                    >> - chairperson noun (pl chairpersons) a chairman or chairwoman
                    >>
                    >> - womankind noun female human beings; women as a whole, esp as
                    >> distinguished from men.
                    >>
                    >> My super-ancient Merriam-Webster offers only chairman, but I see
                    >> online they have
                    >>
                    >> - chairwoman: a woman who serves as chairman
                    >>
                    >> As to "Madam Chairman", here's a little entertainment from Canada:
                    >> http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/34872-deputy-speaker-draws-line-%E2%80%98madam-chairman%E2%80%99
                    >>
                    >> - Liz
                    >>
                    >> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Tomas Mosler" <tomas.mosler@...> wrote:
                    >>>
                    >>> Just out of curiosity - cannot be "-man" understood as a
                    >> universal/neutral form derived from the meaning of person/human,
                    >> rather than male? Just like we don't say mankind and womankind? :) Or
                    >> what makes the difference that "mankind" is still gender neutral?
                    >>>
                    >>> Tomas
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Liz" <spacils@> wrote:
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Hi Matej,
                    >>>>
                    >>>> IMO, consistency what's most important: either Chairman for males
                    >> and Chairwoman for females, OR Chairperson for all genders.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Chairman for males and Chairperson for females makes my upper lip
                    >> curl.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Another gender-neutral form, "Chair", is used widely (and
                    >> consistently) in academia.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Someone once tried to explain to me that the -man in Chairman is
                    >> from the Latin "manus" (hand), making "Chairman" gender-neutral, but
                    >> that seems to be one of those popular urban myths...
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Cheers
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Liz
                    >>>
                    >>
                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > _______________________________________________
                    > Czechlist mailing list
                    > Czechlist@...
                    > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist


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                  • Melvyn
                    ... I think here we are contrasting Masaryk the old chap who e.g. enjoyed riding around a bit on horseback and Masaryk the figurehead dressed in white who
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 3, 2012
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                      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > >
                      > >Muzeum se stalou vystavou na tema osobnost TGM a jeho rodina
                      > >A museum with a permanent exhibition on Masaryk the man and his family.
                      > >Couldn't you also use legend and/or legacy in some contexts? (probably
                      > >not here as it presumably deals with his time..)


                      I think here we are contrasting Masaryk the old chap who e.g. enjoyed riding around a bit on horseback and Masaryk the figurehead dressed in white who rides a white horse while aetherial music plays in the background (you've seen the film, now visit the museum). Actually, there is a very nice museum in Lany just down the road from us and round the corner from the llama farm (don't ask). Well worth a visit if you and your family like historical exhibitions. Some of the period depictions are a bit larger than life - literally. TGM towers over the assembled populace as he leads them forward. I believe he himself often complained about this kind of portrayal.

                      But TGM is an extreme case. I reckon this solution might sometimes be useful in phrases like Zdenka Braunerova: dílo a osobnost - the woman and her work.

                      BR

                      M.
                    • Melvyn
                      Or what would you do with osobnosti here? Any clever thoughts? My idea is upside down at the bottom of the page. :-) Badatelske zamereni: Dejiny vedy,
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 4, 2012
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                        Or what would you do with osobnosti here? Any clever thoughts? My idea is upside down at the bottom of the page. :-)

                        Badatelske zamereni:
                        Dejiny vedy, vedeckych instituci a osobnosti vedeckeho zivota v Ceskoslovensku;
                        Politicke dejiny stredni Evropy v 19. stoleti.

                        BR

                        M.





                        sǝɹnƃıɟ ʇuǝuıɯoɹd
                      • James Kirchner
                        The history of science, scientific institutions and notable scientists in Czechoslovakia. In another context I might write notable figures in science . Jamie
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 4, 2012
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                          The history of science, scientific institutions and notable scientists in Czechoslovakia.

                          In another context I might write "notable figures in science".

                          Jamie

                          On May 4, 2012, at 8:26 AM, Melvyn wrote:

                          > Or what would you do with osobnosti here? Any clever thoughts? My idea is upside down at the bottom of the page. :-)
                          >
                          > Badatelske zamereni:
                          > Dejiny vedy, vedeckych instituci a osobnosti vedeckeho zivota v Ceskoslovensku;
                          > Politicke dejiny stredni Evropy v 19. stoleti.
                          >
                          > BR
                          >
                          > M.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > sǝɹnƃıɟ ʇuǝuıɯoɹd
                          >
                          >
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                        • Melvyn
                          ... Notable is a neat idea. Might well use that instead of prominent . In this context some of these notables are historians, archeologists, sociologists,
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 7, 2012
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                            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > The history of science, scientific institutions and notable scientists in Czechoslovakia.
                            >
                            > In another context I might write "notable figures in science".

                            "Notable" is a neat idea. Might well use that instead of "prominent". In this context some of these notables are historians, archeologists, sociologists, sinologists etc so I may well use "science and scholarship", "research institutes" and the like.

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_institute

                            BR

                            M.
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