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THANKS: [Czechlist] Old/historic Czech quotes

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  • Matej Klimes
    Thanks to all who chipped in (and confirmed my thoughts)... I have since learned that the renaissance bit I had in electronic form is only one section of the
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 1 12:17 AM
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      Thanks to all who chipped in (and confirmed my thoughts)... I have
      since learned that the renaissance bit I had in electronic form is only
      one section of the book and that it deals with pretty much all times
      and all cultures starting in old Sumerian empire.... so here's another
      argument, I'm not going to find experts who can write whatever the
      English was at that or other times (if there was any) and even if I did
      no one would read it...

      Interestingly, the historic quotes in those earlier sections are in
      perfectly modern Czech, even more so than the ones I quoted before :)

      It's going to be normal English with the occasional old word and/or
      word order as Stephan suggested

      Thanks again

      Matej



      ------ Original Message ------
      From: "Stephan von Pohl" <stephan.pohl@...>
      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: 27.2.2012 17:39:48
      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Old/historic Czech quotes
      > Actually, Valerie kind of makes my point that you should NOT write in
      >Elizabethan English. The Czech examples you gave have a slightly
      >different feel than "modern" Czech, but the difference is not as great
      >as that between modern English and Elizabethan English.
      >
      >On 2/27/2012 4:27 PM, Valerie Talacko wrote:
      >> Earlier post was cross-posted with Stephan, who I think said the same
      >> thing.
      >>
      >> Here is another one (Fynes Moryson - including his Comments upon
      >Prague)
      >>
      >> http://www.archive.org/details/fynesmorysons01moryuoft
      >>
      >> In publike Innes they demand some Bohemian six
      >> grosh for a meale, yet doe they not commonly give meales
      >> at an ordinary rate, as they doe through all Germany; but
      >> what meate you require, that they dresse, and the servant
      >> buying all things out of doores (after the manner of
      >> Poland) maketh a reckoning of the expences. My selfe
      >> had my diet with a Citizen very conveniently a doller
      >> for and a halfe weekely. I did here eat English Oysters
      >> pickeld, and a young Bohemian comming in by chance,
      >> and tasting them,but not knowing the price,desired
      >> the Merchant to give him a dish at his charge, which
      >> contained some twenty Oysters,and finding them very
      >> savoury, hee called for five dishes one after another,
      >> for which the Merchant demanded and had of him
      >> five dollers, the dearenesse no lesse displeasing his minde,
      >> than the meate had pleased his taste.
      >>
      >> On Mon, 2012-02-27 at 16:04 +0100, Valerie Talacko wrote:
      >> >
      >> > I think that writing it in essentially modern English is the only
      >way.
      >> > Otherwise you're looking at writing something like this! (and this
      >was
      >> > written later that 1554). Even if you modernise the spelling, it's
      >> > pretty difficult to reproduce this kind of thing unless you were
      >> > planning to devote yourself to it and charge accordingly :)
      >> >
      >> > "The trueth is that of Hempe and Flaxe there is no great store in
      >any
      >> > one place together, by reason it is not planted but as the soile
      >doth
      >> > yeeld it of it selfe; and howsoeuer the leafe, and stemme or stalke
      >> > doe
      >> > differ from ours; the stuffe by the iudgemet of men of skill is
      >> > altogether as good as ours. And if not, as further proofe should
      >finde
      >> > otherwise; we haue that experience of the soile, as thas there
      >> > cannobee
      >> > shewed anie reason to the contrary, but that it will grow there
      >> > excellent well; and by planting will be yeelded plentifully: seeing
      >> > there is so much ground whereof some may well be applyed to such
      >> > purposes. What benefite heereof may growe in cordage and linnens
      >who
      >> > can
      >> > not easily vnderstand?"
      >> > http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/hariot/hariot.html
      >> >
      >> > In any publication of this kind that I have come across, quotations
      >> > such
      >> > as those you give are invariably translated into modern English.
      >> >
      >> > The problem may be that the client is reacting unnecessarily warily
      >> > when
      >> > he hears "modern English"-- he immediately connects it with
      >informal
      >> > or
      >> > idiomatic English, which it of course doesn't have to be. I think
      >the
      >> > solution is to use modern formal English and, maybe using the link
      >> > above
      >> > for inspiration, use some turns of phrase that can still be used in
      >> > modern English without sounding "fake olde worlde."
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > Valerie
      >> >
      >> > On Mon, 2012-02-27 at 14:06 +0000, "Matej Klimes" wrote:
      >> > > That's one reason why I'm asking - they do sound old-fashioned
      >to me
      >> > -
      >> > > and there's a clear difference between the text in front of them
      >> > and
      >> > > the asterisked part, but it's not incomprehensible or anything -
      >> > most
      >> > > Czech from that time wouldn't be, plus I find that if it's a
      >Czech
      >> > > original, it's more old-fashioned than a translation (which was
      >> > > presumably made later)...
      >> > >
      >> > > Anyway, the client thinks it would be a sacrilege to use normal
      >> > English
      >> > > on these things, I'm trying to convince him it would be better
      >and
      >> > that
      >> > > doing some fake old thing will only annoy people like Jamie said
      >-
      >> > so
      >> > > I'm asking just to see if others feel the same or opposite ...
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > Thanks again
      >> > >
      >> > > M
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > ------ Original Message ------
      >> > > From: "Stephan von Pohl" <stephan.pohl@...
      >> <mailto:stephan.pohl%40centrum.cz>>
      >> > > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> > > Sent: 27.2.2012 14:17:25
      >> > > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Old/historic Czech quotes
      >> > > > Matej, except for the use of the word "jest", "nikdez", the
      >> > ending
      >> > > >"ouv"
      >> > > >instead of "u", and the (very occasional) placement of
      >adjectives
      >> > > >after
      >> > > >the noun, I don't see much to make the texts "old-fashioned."
      >> > Maybe
      >> > > >they
      >> > > >are highly "spisovne", but they otherwise strike me as something
      >> > that
      >> > > >should be translated into normal, spisovny English.
      >> > > >
      >> > > >Steve
      >> > > >
      >> > > >On 2/27/2012 10:47 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
      >> > > >> Melvyn and whoever else might be interested:
      >> > > >>
      >> > > >> Below are a few examples of the historic Czech quotes from the
      >> > book -
      >> > > >> along with a few normal sentences to get the feel for it.. the
      >> > quotes
      >> > > >> range from period guide/cook/etiquette books through letters
      >and
      >> > > >> chronicles to shopping lists and buttlers' records etc. Hope
      >> > > >diacritics
      >> > > >> are going to come through OK, let me know if not and I'll
      >send it
      >> > > >> offlist or post it somewhere
      >> > > >>
      >> > > >> My question was more academical
      >> > > >>
      >> > > >> - will readers in English (native/non-native) find it easier,
      >> > less
      >> > > >> embarrasing, faster (anything else??) to just have those in
      >> > normal
      >> > > >> English with an olde-worlde word thrown in every now and
      >then....
      >> > > >>
      >> > > >> - or will they prefer, find more attractive, fun, (???) to
      >have a
      >> > > >> paragraph sounding like it came from a Shakespeare play on
      >every
      >> > > >other
      >> > > >> page (and no one's sure that's how it would be written at the
      >> > time
      >> > > >and
      >> > > >> in the place/if translated) = there's also a third
      >possibility,
      >> > if we
      >> > > >> do some fake old thing... that most readers will simply skip
      >> > these
      >> > > >bits
      >> > > >> and not bother.. (the content is informative and supports
      >what's
      >> > > >being
      >> > > >> said around it, so that wouldn't be good)
      >> > > >>
      >> > > >> Thanks for more comments
      >> > > >>
      >> > > >> M
      >> > > >>
      >> > > >> example 1
      >> > > >> Hospodarska stabilita, ktera uspesne vybalancovala obdobi
      >krehke
      >> > > >domaci
      >> > > >> politicke rovnovahy i obdobi napjatych vnejsich vztahu zeme,
      >> > > >prerostla
      >> > > >> na prelomu 15. a 16. stoleti v trvalou prosperitu. Pri
      >priprave
      >> > > >hostin
      >> > > >> si cesti
      >> > > >> kuchari te doby meli z ceho vybirat. K dispozici byl dostatek
      >> > > >tistenych
      >> > > >> kucharskych knih a hospodarskasituace i domaci potravinove
      >zdroje
      >> > jim
      >> > > >> poskytovaly dostatecne zazemi. Tyto skutecnosti se dokonce
      >> > objevily
      >> > > >na
      >> > > >> ukor jinych,
      >> > > >> zdanlive zavaznejsich temat, i v dile Sebastiana Munstera
      >> > > >Cosmographia,
      >> > > >> vydane v Praze roku 1554: **************,,Vsak tak jeste zeme
      >> > ceska
      >> > > >jest
      >> > > >> jako spizirna Germanie... Masa nejcistciho, hoveziho,
      >teleciho,
      >> > > >skopoveho,
      >> > > >> jehnatkoveho, veproveho a jineho vselikeho, tak se mnoho dne
      >> > kazdeho
      >> > > >> pres cely rok vzdycky v tomto meste a zvlaste v sobotu
      >prodava.
      >> > Item:
      >> > > >> zveri, ptactva a vareni (prikrm) vselikeho, s jinymi
      >rozlicnymi
      >> > > >> potravinami mlecnymi, ze se spravedliveji cemu jest podiviti,
      >nez
      >> > o
      >> > > >tom
      >> > > >> vypravovati, neb se v zadnem meste krestanskem toho nikdez
      >> > nenaleza,
      >> > > >> ani v Rime, kteryz se tomu divi
      >> > > >>
      >> > > >> a prav
      >> > > >> i, ze ve ctvrti lete tolik masa nestravi, co se ho jediny den
      >> > > >sobotni v
      >> > > >> Praze na trhu spatri. Ac v Gdanste [Gdansk] nekdy na dva
      >tisice
      >> > > >volouv
      >> > > >> i vice jeden tejden zabiji, ale to za nekterou malo nedeli
      >stoji,
      >> > k
      >> > > >> tomu se do tun klade a na sify prodava, nez aby den ode dne,
      >> > sobotu
      >> > > >od
      >> > > >> soboty,
      >> > > >> pres cely rok, jako v Praze vzdycky jednostejne nejlepsi,
      >> > nejcisci a
      >> > > >> nejvebornejsi maso byti melo, k tomu bez vahy se prodavalo,
      >chudy
      >> > neb
      >> > > >> bohaty, kdoz by koli prisel, aby sobe vybral, co chtel, toho
      >se v
      >> > > >> krestanstvi nikdez
      >> > > >> nenachazi, nadto v pohanstvu. Rybnikuov v zemi ceske, vec k
      >vire
      >> > > >> nepodobna, jak jest mnoho, z nichz kapruv, stik a jinych ryb
      >> > > >rozlicnych
      >> > > >> velmi mnoho pochazi. Protoz v tomto meste ryb vselikych
      >nazbyt k
      >> > > >koupi
      >> > > >> na trhu se
      >> > > >> nachazi, jako stik, kapruv, parem, mrenuv, lososuov,
      >pstruhuov,
      >> > > >> okounuov a tak dale." 9)***********
      >> > > >> example 2
      >> > > >> Pocinaji se diferencovat chutove kvality a zaroven davkovat
      >> > koreni a
      >> > > >> byliny. Kuchyne dostava rad, texty predpisu nabyvaji na
      >jasnosti
      >> > a
      >> > > >kvalita
      >> > > >> kuchyne se stava zalezitosti prestize a diferenciace
      >jednotlivych
      >> > > >> narodu: ***********,,Ni Spanihelove, Portugalove, Flamove,
      >> > Vlasi,
      >> > > >Uhri d
      >> > > >> ostatni cirkve rimske poddani nemaji takovou velkolepost ve
      >svych
      >> > > >> pripravnach mas (jidel) jako Francouzove. A veru, Francouzove
      >> > maji
      >> > > >>
      >> > > >> v tom nevim jakou velkou dustojnost, nebot se jim predklada na
      >> > tisic
      >> > > >malych
      >> > > >> masitych pochoutek co predkrm, rozmanite nadobi, jez pro
      >> > obradnost
      >> > > >> spise nez co jineho." 10)*****
      >> > > >>
      >> > > >>
      >> > > >>
      >> > > >> example 3 (this one is obviously a translation and uses modern
      >> > Czech,
      >> > > >> just some old words)
      >> > > >>
      >> > > >> V kapitolach o zravych Gastrolatrech a jejich hodovnich
      >obetinach
      >> > > >> Gasterovi,
      >> > > >> ktereho uctivaji jako sveho boha, rozviji Rabelais hodovni
      >> > obrazy,
      >> > > >jez
      >> > > >> v plne siri odrazeji nejenom dobove postoje k materialnim
      >> > potrebam
      >> > > >> lidskeho tela, ale s dokumentarni presnosti naznacuji
      >prebohate
      >> > > >> moznosti doboveho obzerstvi:
      >> > > >> ************,,Kdyz se Gastrolatrove priblizili, uvidel jsem,
      >ze
      >> > za
      >> > > >nimi
      >> > > >> kraci velky pocet chlapu
      >> > > >> obtezkanych kosi, kosiky, baliky, nadobami, pytli a hrnci. Tu
      >pod
      >> > > >> vedenim Manducovym, zpivajice jakesi dithyramby a epainie,
      >> > obetovali
      >> > > >> svemu bohu, otevrevse sve kosiky i
      >> > > >> hrnce, bily hypokras s jemnou suchou peceni na rozni: bily
      >> > chleb,
      >> > > >jemny
      >> > > >> chleb, vyrazkovy chleb, domaci chleb, karbanatky na sest
      >zpusobu,
      >> > > >> studenou pecenou
      >> > > >> teleci ledvinu se zazvorovou horcici, kus-kus, studenou
      >pastiku,
      >> > > >> masitou polevku s chlebem, druhy odvar s cernym chlebem,
      >lyonske
      >> > > >> polevky, hlavkove zeli s hovezim morkem, hovezi sekaninu,
      >> > > >salmigondin.
      >> > > >> Mezi tim nekonecne napoje, predevsim dobre a lahodne bile
      >vino,
      >> > potom
      >> > > >> vino klaretove a na to cerstve cervene. Povidam vam, studene
      >> > jako
      >> > > >led,
      >> > > >> nalevane a podavane ve velkych stribrnych cisich. Potom
      >> > obetovali:
      >> > > >> jitrnice cabrakovane jemnou horcici, klobasy, uzene hovezi
      >> > jazyky,
      >> > > >> solene maso,
      >> > > >> veprove hrbety s hrachem, fricandeaux, jelita, mozecnice,
      >> > uzenice,
      >> > > >> sunky, hlavy z divokeho kance, nalozenou zverinu s vodnici,
      >> > nadivana
      >> > > >> drubezi jatra.... A pak mu hazeli do jicnu skopovou kytu na
      >> > cesneku,
      >> > > >> pastiky s teplou
      >> > > >> omackou, veprova zebirka s cibulovou********
      >> > > >>
      >> > > >> example 4 (this one is also almost modern)
      >> > > >>
      >> > > >> Na Castigliona navazal dalsi Ital, Florentan Giovanni della
      >Casa
      >> > > >svoji
      >> > > >> knihou ,,Galateo aneb o mravech" (Il Galateo ovvero de'
      >costumi)
      >> > v
      >> > > >roce
      >> > > >> 1555, ve ktere jde spise o jakysi vycet pravidel dobreho
      >chovani.
      >> > > >> Oproti tomu pohled Baldassara Castigliona odrazi sirsi dobove
      >> > > >souvislosti a
      >> > > >> jeho kniha slouzila jako oblibeny model pri vychove mladych
      >> > dvoranu:
      >> > > >> **************,,Nepopiram", odpovedel pan Federico, ,,ze se
      >mezi
      >> > > >> Francouzi najdou uslechtili a dobre vychovani kavaliri, sam
      >jsem
      >> > jich
      >> > > >> poznal vskutku
      >> > > >> mnoho znamenitych: ale take mnoho mene slusnych: a mluvime-li
      >> > > >vseobecne,
      >> > > >> pokud jde o
      >> > > >> mravy, jsou Italum blizsi Spanele nez Francouzi, nebot klidna
      >> > > >> dustojnost priznacna pro Spanely nam mnohem lepe vyhovuje nez
      >> > ziva
      >> > > >> letora, jez se
      >> > > >> u francouzskeho naroda projevuje takrka ve vsech pohybech: u
      >> > nich
      >> > > >ovsem
      >> > > >> nepusobi nevkusne". 15)**********
      >> > > >>
      >> > > >>
      >> > > >>
      >> > > >> ------ Original Message ------
      >> > > >> From: "Melvyn" <zehrovak@... <mailto:zehrovak%40dr.com>
      >> <mailto:zehrovak%40dr.com>>
      >> > > >> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      >> <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Czechlist%
      >> > 40yahoogroups.com>
      >> > > >> Sent: 26.2.2012 22:40:09
      >> > > >> Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Old/historic Czech quotes
      >> > > >> >
      >> > > >> >
      >> > > >> >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      >> <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Czechlist%
      >> > 40yahoogroups.com>,
      >> > > >> "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
      >> > > >> >
      >> > > >> >>
      >> > > >> >> Any more opinions?
      >> > > >> >
      >> > > >> >Fain wolde I holde mine tunge tille I havve beholden
      >essamples
      >> > of
      >> > > >> >thine texte, nuncle.
      >> > > >> >
      >> > > >> >BR
      >> > > >> >
      >> > > >> >M.
      >> > > >> >
      >> > > >> >
      >> > > >> >
      >> > > >> >
      >> > > >> >__________ Informace od ESET Smart Security, verze databaze
      >6917
      >> > > >> >(20120226) __________
      >> > > >> >
      >> > > >> >Tuto zpravu proveril ESET Smart Security.
      >> > > >> >
      >> > > >> >http://www.eset.cz/
      >> > > >>
      >> > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >> > > >>
      >> > > >>
      >> > > >
      >> > > >
      >> > > >
      >> > > >__________ Informace od ESET Smart Security, verze databaze 6919
      >> > > >(20120227) __________
      >> > > >
      >> > > >Tuto zpravu proveril ESET Smart Security.
      >> > > >
      >> > > >http://www.eset.cz/
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >> > >
      >> > > _______________________________________________
      >> > > Czechlist mailing list
      >> > > Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >> > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >> >
      >> > _______________________________________________
      >> > Czechlist mailing list
      >> > Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      >> > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >__________ Informace od ESET Smart Security, verze databaze 6919
      >(20120227) __________
      >
      >Tuto zpravu proveril ESET Smart Security.
      >
      >http://www.eset.cz/


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