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2 hairsplitters

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  • Charlie Stanford Translations
    Can someone give me a bit of advice on this one please. I have been doing a backtranslation of something - i.e. written in English translated into Czech and
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 9, 2011
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      Can someone give me a bit of advice on this one please. I have been doing a backtranslation of something - i.e. written in English translated into Czech and then back into English. The original English has a list of colours, blue, yellow, green, red, purple. The translation into Czech used purpurova and since every time I look at something which I understand to be "purple" and say that it is purpurova, my girlfriend corrects me and says it is "fialova", I backtranslated the word "purpurova" (based mainly on her description of it) as "crimson" or "maroon" and put a footnote to the effect that purpurova is not really used in Czech to refer to what we understand as bog-standard purple. I realise that colours are a bit of a subjective thing and one man's red is another man's green, but it has struck me how little anyone Czech seems to use the word purpurova and that unless you are getting all huey, fialova is purple - in the same way that in English we don't really bandy about the word "violet" to refer to a colour unless we are getting a bit arty.
      In the same job the English source says "Novel word" and this has been translated as "Slovo neni v seznamu" whioch comes from the glossary definition: "The subject is presented with a list of words. A 'Novel Word' is a word that wasn't in the list, but the subject thinks it was. A false positive recall. Extra word, Non-list word. All relating specifically to the context of the original list." I don't know why the translator was reluctant to use just "Nove slovo" but perhaps there is more to it than that, because the customer is asking for something that signifies "Fresh, new and original". Maybe the obvious "Nove slovo" is a bit too plain - would "novinka" or "originalni slovo" work better or has someone got a better idea?
      Thanks for anything.
      Charlie



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jirka Bolech
      Hi Charlie, You re right colours get easily misinterpreted. My wife and I quite often disagree on some green or blue hues. My favourite scene on the topic:
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 9, 2011
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        Hi Charlie,

        You're right colours get easily misinterpreted. My wife and I quite
        often disagree on some green or blue hues. My favourite scene on the
        topic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng8ofxMAAmk.

        I'm confident to say, though, that purple in English and purpur(ova) in
        Czech are two different colours. Purple is simply fialova although this
        IS a simplification. Purpurova is basically magenta or fuchsia. Do check
        out the relevant articles on Wikipedia and perhaps also definitions in
        dictionaries.

        I'm not sure if I understand the translation requirements (not enough
        context) but Slovo neni v seznamu sounds really dry and buerocratic. I
        find Nove slovo the most natural comprehensible solution. Besides what
        you suggest, you could come up with Zatim nepouzite slovo or suchlike.
        Novota or To tu jeste nebylo would be quite bold. However, you might
        brainstrom dozens fresh new original more...

        Jirka Bolech

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      • Matej Klimes
        IMHO no one uses purpurova in Czech as such - Millenium, Google translate and good-only-knows-what may use PURPUROVA, but no living human being of Czech origin
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 9, 2011
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          IMHO no one uses purpurova in Czech as such - Millenium, Google
          translate and good-only-knows-what may use PURPUROVA, but no living
          human being of Czech origin would ever utter that word (some exstatic
          fashion/interior designers might, but that's just another reason for
          avoiding it IMHO, unless of course the text is one of theirs..)

          purpuuuura na plotne vooooniiii!!!! (on Radiozurnal from late September
          till mid Feb) is as close as you get to anything purple/purpure in
          Czech (sorry Karel [Got])

          fialova is a fialova

          in CMYK/RGB and whatever colour scales I can think of, Czechs would
          talk about fialova (unless of course they wanted to be smart and say
          magenta [with Czech pronounciation])

          ... I think the main problem here is the 'BACKTRANSLATION' process as
          such... anything can get lost/misinterpreted in there...

          I don't really know how to explain this, but if a ENG to CZ translator
          used purporova, they were a) on acid b) run out of other words for the
          particular colour c) overly creative d) used Google translate, f) were
          creative and correct (in certain very specific contexts) etc etc ....


          And whatever you do in backtranslation is only going to mess things up
          - the people who are looking at the backtranslations are mostly (almost
          always) non-speakers of the original target language (and very often
          speakers of only one language [with a very narrow-minded attitude to
          languages as a whole]) trying to apply some language specific rules
          onto all other languages just because they don't know better...

          In a language A to language B (both of which I would have some
          understanding of) situation, I'd be able to give you an advice, but in
          a Eng to Czech (supposedly creative) translation to be backtranslated
          into English, there are so many nuances and possibilities that no
          single person should be judging it (IMHO)...

          Feel free to Email/post the entire sentence/paragraph along with
          explanations to get a closer idea on whether it's cr*p or not, I'm
          afraid Czech's too flexible to dismiss it outright... [mind you, seeing
          purpurova in most documents would certainly send all the warning lights
          flashing]

          M





          ------ Original Message ------
          From: "Charlie Stanford Translations"
          <charliestanfordtranslations@...>
          To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: 9.9.2011 21:11:51
          Subject: [Czechlist] 2 hairsplitters
          > Can someone give me a bit of advice on this one please. I have been
          >doing a backtranslation of something - i.e. written in English
          >translated into Czech and then back into English. The original English
          >has a list of colours, blue, yellow, green, red, purple. The
          >translation into Czech used purpurova and since every time I look at
          >something which I understand to be "purple" and say that it is
          >purpurova, my girlfriend corrects me and says it is "fialova", I
          >backtranslated the word "purpurova" (based mainly on her description
          >of it) as "crimson" or "maroon" and put a footnote to the effect that
          >purpurova is not really used in Czech to refer to what we understand
          >as bog-standard purple. I realise that colours are a bit of a
          >subjective thing and one man's red is another man's green, but it has
          >struck me how little anyone Czech seems to use the word purpurova and
          >that unless you are getting all huey, fialova is purple - in the same
          >way that in English we don't really bandy about the word "violet" to
          >refer to a colour unless we are getting a bit arty.
          >In the same job the English source says "Novel word" and this has been
          >translated as "Slovo neni v seznamu" whioch comes from the glossary
          >definition: "The subject is presented with a list of words. A 'Novel
          >Word' is a word that wasn't in the list, but the subject thinks it
          >was. A false positive recall. Extra word, Non-list word. All relating
          >specifically to the context of the original list." I don't know why
          >the translator was reluctant to use just "Nove slovo" but perhaps
          >there is more to it than that, because the customer is asking for
          >something that signifies "Fresh, new and original". Maybe the obvious
          >"Nove slovo" is a bit too plain - would "novinka" or "originalni
          >slovo" work better or has someone got a better idea?
          >Thanks for anything.
          >Charlie
          >
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >__________ Informace od ESET Smart Security, verze databaze 6450
          >(20110909) __________
          >
          >Tuto zpravu proveril ESET Smart Security.
          >
          >http://www.eset.cz/


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Sarka Rubkova
          Hi, purple is can be translated to Czech as purpurová or nachová and, I am sure, it is not fialová. It is not at all new word but, on the contrary, an
          Message 4 of 5 , Sep 11, 2011
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            Hi,
            purple is can be translated to Czech as "purpurová" or "nachová" and, I am
            sure, it is not fialová. It is not at all new word but, on the contrary, an
            old one, see královský purpur nebo královský nach (royal purple).

            Sarka

            -------Original Message-------

            From: Charlie Stanford Translations
            Date: 9.9.2011 21:10:07
            To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Czechlist] 2 hairsplitters


            Can someone give me a bit of advice on this one please. I have been doing a
            backtranslation of something - i.e. written in English translated into Czech
            and then back into English. The original English has a list of colours, blue
            yellow, green, red, purple. The translation into Czech used purpurova and
            since every time I look at something which I understand to be "purple" and
            say that it is purpurova, my girlfriend corrects me and says it is "fialova"
            I backtranslated the word "purpurova" (based mainly on her description of
            it) as "crimson" or "maroon" and put a footnote to the effect that purpurova
            is not really used in Czech to refer to what we understand as bog-standard
            purple. I realise that colours are a bit of a subjective thing and one man's
            red is another man's green, but it has struck me how little anyone Czech
            seems to use the word purpurova and that unless you are getting all huey,
            fialova is purple - in the same way that in English we don't really bandy
            about the word "violet" to refer to a colour unless we are getting a bit
            arty.
            In the same job the English source says "Novel word" and this has been
            translated as "Slovo neni v seznamu" whioch comes from the glossary
            definition: "The subject is presented with a list of words. A 'Novel Word'
            is a word that wasn't in the list, but the subject thinks it was. A false
            positive recall. Extra word, Non-list word. All relating specifically to the
            context of the original list." I don't know why the translator was reluctant
            to use just "Nove slovo" but perhaps there is more to it than that, because
            the customer is asking for something that signifies "Fresh, new and original
            . Maybe the obvious "Nove slovo" is a bit too plain - would "novinka" or
            originalni slovo" work better or has someone got a better idea?
            Thanks for anything.
            Charlie


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Martin Janda
            Agreed, Sarka, but unlike purple, no native Czech (except for silly translators who blindly follow every twist of their English text) would use purpurova for a
            Message 5 of 5 , Sep 11, 2011
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              Agreed, Sarka, but unlike purple, no native Czech (except for silly
              translators who blindly follow every twist of their English text) would
              use purpurova for a basic hue like purple. It's either artsy, or
              archaic. Yes, you can see kralovsky purpur/nach in historic books but
              that's about it.

              I'm with Matej in this.

              Martin


              Dne 11.9.2011 19:34, Sarka Rubkova napsal(a):
              > Hi,
              > purple is can be translated to Czech as "purpurová" or "nachová" and, I am
              > sure, it is not fialová. It is not at all new word but, on the contrary, an
              > old one, see královský purpur nebo královský nach (royal purple).
              >
              > Sarka
              >
              > -------Original Message-------
              >
              > From: Charlie Stanford Translations
              > Date: 9.9.2011 21:10:07
              > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
              > Subject: [Czechlist] 2 hairsplitters
              >
              >
              > Can someone give me a bit of advice on this one please. I have been doing a
              > backtranslation of something - i.e. written in English translated into Czech
              > and then back into English. The original English has a list of colours, blue
              > yellow, green, red, purple. The translation into Czech used purpurova and
              > since every time I look at something which I understand to be "purple" and
              > say that it is purpurova, my girlfriend corrects me and says it is "fialova"
              > I backtranslated the word "purpurova" (based mainly on her description of
              > it) as "crimson" or "maroon" and put a footnote to the effect that purpurova
              > is not really used in Czech to refer to what we understand as bog-standard
              > purple. I realise that colours are a bit of a subjective thing and one man's
              > red is another man's green, but it has struck me how little anyone Czech
              > seems to use the word purpurova and that unless you are getting all huey,
              > fialova is purple - in the same way that in English we don't really bandy
              > about the word "violet" to refer to a colour unless we are getting a bit
              > arty.
              > In the same job the English source says "Novel word" and this has been
              > translated as "Slovo neni v seznamu" whioch comes from the glossary
              > definition: "The subject is presented with a list of words. A 'Novel Word'
              > is a word that wasn't in the list, but the subject thinks it was. A false
              > positive recall. Extra word, Non-list word. All relating specifically to the
              > context of the original list." I don't know why the translator was reluctant
              > to use just "Nove slovo" but perhaps there is more to it than that, because
              > the customer is asking for something that signifies "Fresh, new and original
              > . Maybe the obvious "Nove slovo" is a bit too plain - would "novinka" or
              > originalni slovo" work better or has someone got a better idea?
              > Thanks for anything.
              > Charlie
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
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