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Re: [Czechlist] Gems

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  • Martin Janda
    Hi Tomas, No gems nor links found in your message. If you´ve sent them as an attachment, try again using Svepomoc. Martin
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 4, 2001
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      Hi Tomas,

      No gems nor links found in your message. If you´ve sent them as an
      attachment, try again using Svepomoc.

      Martin



      > This "treasury" can be found on official web page of Prague Congress
      Centre:
      >
      >
      >
      > Tomas Skront
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Miroslav Herold
      WHat URL? Mirek ************************************************************** Ing.Miroslav HEROLD, CSc. tlumocn�k/prekladatel/poradenstv�/voln� novin�r tel.:
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 4, 2001
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        WHat URL?
        Mirek
        **************************************************************
        Ing.Miroslav HEROLD, CSc.

        tlumocník/prekladatel/poradenství/volný novinár
        tel.: xx420 2 536549
        mobil: 0606 865870
        ***********************************************************
        -----Pùvodní zpráva-----
        Od: Tomá¹ Skøont <skront@...>
        Komu: czechlist <czechlist@egroups.com>
        Datum: 4. ledna 2001 9:36
        Pøedmìt: [Czechlist] Gems


        >This "treasury" can be found on official web page of Prague Congress
        Centre:
        >
        >
        >
        >Tomas Skront
        >
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Tomáš Skřont
        Funny enough, between the first line and my name I copied the sentence from the mentioned web page, but it vanished. It was: Prague Congress Centre - The whole
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 4, 2001
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          Funny enough, between the first line and my name I copied the sentence from
          the mentioned web page, but it vanished. It was:

          Prague Congress Centre - The whole Prague lies BEFORE you.

          :)
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <jpelka@...>
          To: <Czechlist@egroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 3:23 PM
          Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Gems


          > --- In Czechlist@egroups.com, Tomáš Skřont <skront@m...> wrote:
          > > This "treasury" can be found on official web page of Prague
          > Congress Centre:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Tomas Skront
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > My-o-my, Tom(as Skront), are you the precious "treasury" one can find
          > there?
          >
          > JP
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Michael Grant
          ... Before is less of a problem than the whole . Michael -- BLUE DANUBE international communication services The Central and East European Language Source!
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 4, 2001
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            >Prague Congress Centre - The whole Prague lies BEFORE you.

            "Before" is less of a problem than "the whole".
            Michael

            --
            BLUE DANUBE international communication services
            The Central and East European Language Source!
            <http://www.bdanube.com>, <mailto:bdanube@...>
            Tel. (+1-512) 336-8911, Fax (+1-512) 336-8954
          • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
            ... Michael s right. Before in this context is good formal usage, and the slogan would sound terrible if they said in front of or something like that.
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 4, 2001
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              In a message dated 1/4/01 9:52:50 AM, skront@... writes:

              >Prague Congress Centre - The whole Prague lies BEFORE you.

              Michael's right. "Before" in this context is good formal usage, and the
              slogan would sound terrible if they said "in front of" or something like
              that. "The whole Prague" is what makes it bad Czenglish. "The whole of
              Prague" would be grammatically correct, but it would sound like someone was
              translating from French. It would be better as, "All of Prague lies before
              you," or better yet, "All Prague lies before you."

              Jamie
            • Simon Vaughan
              ... Prague would be grammatically correct, but it would sound like someone was translating from French. It would be better as, All of Prague lies before
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 5, 2001
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                > > > This "treasury" can be found on official web page of Prague Congress
                Centre:

                > > Prague Congress Centre - The whole Prague lies BEFORE you.

                > "The whole Prague" is what makes it bad Czenglish. "The whole of
                Prague" would be grammatically correct, but it would sound like someone was
                translating from French. It would be better as, "All of Prague lies before
                you," or better yet, "All Prague lies before you."

                I went to the Prague Congress Centre's site just now and discovered that
                what it really says is "the whole of Prague lies before you", which is
                perfectly acceptable. The real offence was not the use of "before" by the
                translator but the omission of "of" by the transcriber.

                And another thing: one "gem" does not a treasury make.

                Simon
              • Otto Pacholik
                Hello everybody, I just wanted to comment on one quite interesting book I read recently (courtesy of Melvyn (-;). Mona Baker is (or was) an ITI member,
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 6, 2001
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                  Hello everybody,

                  I just wanted to comment on one quite interesting book I read recently
                  (courtesy of Melvyn (-;). Mona Baker is (or was) an ITI member, responsible
                  for the education.

                  The book is a bit theoretically focused. Nevertheless, every translator
                  might find there a couple of interesting information. The material is
                  described in a logical way dealing with every aspect of translation from the
                  word level to pragmatic equivalence of the translated text (this part I
                  would recommend to everyone wishing to translate word for word (-;) You will
                  find there also a couple of very interesting comparisons of difficulties
                  encountered by translators of different language combinations. (The book is
                  written by an Englishwomen but it deals with a lot of material in other
                  languages, including Chinese and Arabic.)

                  Anyone willing to learn more about the theory of translation (but not
                  boringly academic) will find some useful information there.

                  Otto
                • Melvyn Clarke
                  ... recently Mona Baker is (or was) an ITI member, responsible for education. ... material in other languages, including Chinese and Arabic.) I find the
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 9, 2001
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                    Otto wrote:


                    >I just wanted to comment on one quite interesting book I read
                    recently <> Mona Baker is (or was) an ITI member, responsible
                    for education.
                    > (The book is written by an Englishwomen but it deals with a lot of
                    material in other languages, including Chinese and Arabic.)




                    I find the analysis of translation problems involving other languages
                    can be surprisingly
                    useful for throwing light on awkward areas in Czech-English
                    translation work. For example,
                    in another textbook I have, 'Thinking Translation - a Course in
                    Translation Method - French to
                    English' there are dozens of useful ideas applicable to Czech-English
                    problems, e.g.:

                    "The degree to which a text hangs together is known as its cogency
                    [...]. The source
                    language may have different standards of cogency from the target
                    language. What counts
                    for normal, rational cogency in texts in one culture may give the
                    appearance of lack of
                    rational cogency or excessive fussiness to members of another
                    culture."

                    Or how about this passage on hyponyms and hyperonyms?

                    "In the absence of plausible synonyms, translating by a hyperonym or a
                    hyponym is standard
                    practice and entirely unremarkable. Indeed choosing a hyperonym or
                    hyponym where a
                    synonym does exist may actually be the mark of a good translation. For
                    instance, even racy
                    French narratives of battle often use 'fusant' or 'percutant; instead
                    of the generic word 'obus',
                    but in English, specifying 'time-shell' or 'percussion-fuse shell'
                    would usually be clumsily
                    unidiomatic; in all but the most technical contexts, the hyperonym
                    'shell' is the appropriate
                    translation".

                    I'd be interested to hear ideas on other cases in Czech<>English
                    translation work where one
                    language conventionally uses a hyperonym in relation to the other
                    language. The classic
                    example must be that of hrib<mushroom.


                    I find "In Other Words" is also inspiring even when it is dealing
                    with Arabic or Chinese!

                    For example, the description of Chinese as a "topic-prominent"
                    language (in which a general
                    topic is given at the beginning of a sentence, e.g. "Animals, I
                    advocate a conservation policy"
                    or "Fish, cod is delicious") helped me to focus on one aspect of
                    formal Czech sentences
                    which I had previously found elusively awkward: those sentences
                    beginning with 'ohledne',
                    'vzhledem k', 'pokud jde o' etc.

                    Here are some comments from "In Other Words" which you may find
                    relevant to this
                    problem:

                    "Topic-comment structures such as those given above are sometimes
                    translated into English
                    as, for instance, "Concerning animals....", "As for fish..." etc.
                    There is, of course, a limit to
                    how often this can be done in English. It is a marked structure in the
                    sense of being relatively
                    infrequent".

                    "Chafe (1976) suggest that it is incorrect to translate a
                    Chinese-style topic with an English
                    expression such as "as for". This is because the English expression
                    suggests
                    _contrastiveness_. A statement such as "As for animals, I advocate a
                    conservation policy"
                    implies that animals are being contrasted with something else for
                    which the speaker
                    perhaps does not advocate a conservation policy. The Chinese
                    structure, on the other hand,
                    need not imply any contrast."

                    "King (1990) ['The Syntax of Topic Organization in English and Greek']
                    suggests that
                    topicalization, as evident in the use of [Greek} expressions [meaning]
                    something like 'as for'
                    or 'with regards to' is more common in Greek than in English and that
                    Greek learners of
                    English tend to overuse this structure."

                    Comments, anyone?


                    In the section which reveals that an Arab will find nothing unusual
                    about long paragraphs
                    without full stops and only connected up with simple conjunctions,
                    there is also a very useful
                    item on the problems of fusing or splitting sentences.

                    Because I deal with a lot of tourist literature for public
                    consumption, I made a rather
                    contentious generalization on the Czechlist resources page that Czech
                    sentences often
                    need to be fused together and smoothed over in English, otherwise you
                    can end up with a
                    rather jerky 'spoon-feeding' effect. Simon Vollam quite rightly pulled
                    me up on this point and
                    said that in bureaucratic texts the opposite is more usually the case.

                    Another important area of concern is that of word order. Sometimes the
                    Czech order of ideas
                    has to be maintained at all costs so as to keep a key-word together
                    with its conjunction. It would be an interesting exercise to draw up a
                    list of all the lexical, grammatical and
                    syntactic devices that can be used in English to make the order of
                    ideas more flexible e.g. the passive voice, the "possessive passive",
                    the "perceptive passive",
                    converse verbs [to own x to belong] (see the Czechlist resources
                    page).

                    I'd also be interested to hear of any other translation textbooks that
                    you have found useful.

                    Regards,

                    Melvyn
                    Czechlist resources page:
                    http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7953/Intro.html
                  • jpelka@seznam.cz
                    ... Hello Melvyn, et al, curiously, I was not able to find hyponym or hyperonym in any English dictionary including unabridged (generic) Webster.
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 9, 2001
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                      > Or how about this passage on hyponyms and hyperonyms?

                      Hello Melvyn, et al,

                      curiously, I was not able to find "hyponym" or "hyperonym" in any
                      English dictionary including unabridged (generic) Webster. Amazingly,
                      and appreciatingly, I could find it in the Czech "Akademicky slovnik
                      cizich slov".

                      Well, correct me if I´m wrong, Melvyn, "hyperonym" ("hyperonymum" in
                      Czech) is the word that is, as to its meaning, superior to an
                      inferior word, "hyponym" ("hyponymum" in Czech); "hyperonym" then
                      describes higher class and vice versa, e.g. tree (hyperonym) v. lime-
                      tree (hyponym).

                      >
                      > "In the absence of plausible synonyms, translating by a hyperonym
                      or a
                      > hyponym is standard
                      > practice and entirely unremarkable. Indeed choosing a hyperonym or
                      > hyponym where a
                      > synonym does exist may actually be the mark of a good translation.
                      For
                      > instance, even racy
                      > French narratives of battle often use 'fusant' or 'percutant;
                      instead
                      > of the generic word 'obus',
                      > but in English, specifying 'time-shell' or 'percussion-fuse shell'
                      > would usually be clumsily
                      > unidiomatic; in all but the most technical contexts, the hyperonym
                      > 'shell' is the appropriate
                      > translation".

                      Looks like the case of "account(s)" in English that equals to
                      German "Rechnung", "Abschluss", "Buchhaltung", "Kunde", or the
                      Czech "ucet", "ucetni zaverka", "ucetnictvi", "zakaznik".

                      or,

                      other way round, German "Sachanlage" being equivalent to the
                      English "capital goods", "tangibles", tangible goods", "tangible
                      capital goods", "investment assets" etc. (this is a real case one can
                      see when comparing German and English version of the Official Journal
                      of European Communities with regulations on structural business
                      statistics).

                      > Another important area of concern is that of word order. Sometimes
                      the
                      > Czech order of ideas
                      > has to be maintained at all costs so as to keep a key-word together
                      > with its conjunction.
                      Not unlike English, Czech is flexible -
                      Mame doma dva kone
                      Mame dva kone doma
                      Mame dva doma kone (colloquial)
                      Mame doma kone dva
                      Mame kone doma dva (coll.)
                      Mame kone dva doma
                      Doma mame dva kone
                      Doma mame kone dva
                      Doma kone mame dva
                      Doma kone dva mame
                      Doma dva kone mame
                      Doma dva mame kone
                      Dva kone doma mame
                      Dva kone mame doma
                      Dva mame doma kone (coll.)
                      Dva mame kone doma
                      Dva doma kone mame
                      Dva doma mame kone
                      Kone mame doma dva
                      Kone mame dva doma
                      Kone doma mame dva
                      Kone doma dva mame (unnaturally sounding)
                      Kone dva mame doma (unnat.)
                      Kone dva doma mame (unnat.)

                      More or less, one can use all sentence permutations - they definitely
                      have slightly different meanings and stress different things, and in
                      some cases they are rather unnaturally sounding unless they refer to
                      previous contextual sentence or question. Some "weird" sentences
                      sound, on the other hand, quite poetically...

                      Jirka P.
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