Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Gems

Expand Messages
  • Tomáš Skřont
    This treasury can be found on official web page of Prague Congress Centre: Tomas Skront [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 4, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      This "treasury" can be found on official web page of Prague Congress Centre:



      Tomas Skront


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Martin Janda
      Hi Tomas, No gems nor links found in your message. If you´ve sent them as an attachment, try again using Svepomoc. Martin
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 4, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Tomas,

        No gems nor links found in your message. If you´ve sent them as an
        attachment, try again using Svepomoc.

        Martin



        > This "treasury" can be found on official web page of Prague Congress
        Centre:
        >
        >
        >
        > Tomas Skront
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • jpelka@seznam.cz
        ... My-o-my, Tom(as Skront), are you the precious treasury one can find there? JP
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 4, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In Czechlist@egroups.com, Tomáš Skřont <skront@m...> wrote:
          > This "treasury" can be found on official web page of Prague
          Congress Centre:
          >
          >
          >
          > Tomas Skront
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          My-o-my, Tom(as Skront), are you the precious "treasury" one can find
          there?

          JP
        • Miroslav Herold
          WHat URL? Mirek ************************************************************** Ing.Miroslav HEROLD, CSc. tlumocn�k/prekladatel/poradenstv�/voln� novin�r tel.:
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 4, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            WHat URL?
            Mirek
            **************************************************************
            Ing.Miroslav HEROLD, CSc.

            tlumocník/prekladatel/poradenství/volný novinár
            tel.: xx420 2 536549
            mobil: 0606 865870
            ***********************************************************
            -----Pùvodní zpráva-----
            Od: Tomá¹ Skøont <skront@...>
            Komu: czechlist <czechlist@egroups.com>
            Datum: 4. ledna 2001 9:36
            Pøedmìt: [Czechlist] Gems


            >This "treasury" can be found on official web page of Prague Congress
            Centre:
            >
            >
            >
            >Tomas Skront
            >
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Tomáš Skřont
            Funny enough, between the first line and my name I copied the sentence from the mentioned web page, but it vanished. It was: Prague Congress Centre - The whole
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 4, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              Funny enough, between the first line and my name I copied the sentence from
              the mentioned web page, but it vanished. It was:

              Prague Congress Centre - The whole Prague lies BEFORE you.

              :)
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <jpelka@...>
              To: <Czechlist@egroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 3:23 PM
              Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Gems


              > --- In Czechlist@egroups.com, Tomáš Skřont <skront@m...> wrote:
              > > This "treasury" can be found on official web page of Prague
              > Congress Centre:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Tomas Skront
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > My-o-my, Tom(as Skront), are you the precious "treasury" one can find
              > there?
              >
              > JP
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Michael Grant
              ... Before is less of a problem than the whole . Michael -- BLUE DANUBE international communication services The Central and East European Language Source!
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 4, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                >Prague Congress Centre - The whole Prague lies BEFORE you.

                "Before" is less of a problem than "the whole".
                Michael

                --
                BLUE DANUBE international communication services
                The Central and East European Language Source!
                <http://www.bdanube.com>, <mailto:bdanube@...>
                Tel. (+1-512) 336-8911, Fax (+1-512) 336-8954
              • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
                ... Michael s right. Before in this context is good formal usage, and the slogan would sound terrible if they said in front of or something like that.
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 4, 2001
                • 0 Attachment
                  In a message dated 1/4/01 9:52:50 AM, skront@... writes:

                  >Prague Congress Centre - The whole Prague lies BEFORE you.

                  Michael's right. "Before" in this context is good formal usage, and the
                  slogan would sound terrible if they said "in front of" or something like
                  that. "The whole Prague" is what makes it bad Czenglish. "The whole of
                  Prague" would be grammatically correct, but it would sound like someone was
                  translating from French. It would be better as, "All of Prague lies before
                  you," or better yet, "All Prague lies before you."

                  Jamie
                • Simon Vaughan
                  ... Prague would be grammatically correct, but it would sound like someone was translating from French. It would be better as, All of Prague lies before
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 5, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    > > > This "treasury" can be found on official web page of Prague Congress
                    Centre:

                    > > Prague Congress Centre - The whole Prague lies BEFORE you.

                    > "The whole Prague" is what makes it bad Czenglish. "The whole of
                    Prague" would be grammatically correct, but it would sound like someone was
                    translating from French. It would be better as, "All of Prague lies before
                    you," or better yet, "All Prague lies before you."

                    I went to the Prague Congress Centre's site just now and discovered that
                    what it really says is "the whole of Prague lies before you", which is
                    perfectly acceptable. The real offence was not the use of "before" by the
                    translator but the omission of "of" by the transcriber.

                    And another thing: one "gem" does not a treasury make.

                    Simon
                  • Otto Pacholik
                    Hello everybody, I just wanted to comment on one quite interesting book I read recently (courtesy of Melvyn (-;). Mona Baker is (or was) an ITI member,
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 6, 2001
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello everybody,

                      I just wanted to comment on one quite interesting book I read recently
                      (courtesy of Melvyn (-;). Mona Baker is (or was) an ITI member, responsible
                      for the education.

                      The book is a bit theoretically focused. Nevertheless, every translator
                      might find there a couple of interesting information. The material is
                      described in a logical way dealing with every aspect of translation from the
                      word level to pragmatic equivalence of the translated text (this part I
                      would recommend to everyone wishing to translate word for word (-;) You will
                      find there also a couple of very interesting comparisons of difficulties
                      encountered by translators of different language combinations. (The book is
                      written by an Englishwomen but it deals with a lot of material in other
                      languages, including Chinese and Arabic.)

                      Anyone willing to learn more about the theory of translation (but not
                      boringly academic) will find some useful information there.

                      Otto
                    • Melvyn Clarke
                      ... recently Mona Baker is (or was) an ITI member, responsible for education. ... material in other languages, including Chinese and Arabic.) I find the
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jan 9, 2001
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Otto wrote:


                        >I just wanted to comment on one quite interesting book I read
                        recently <> Mona Baker is (or was) an ITI member, responsible
                        for education.
                        > (The book is written by an Englishwomen but it deals with a lot of
                        material in other languages, including Chinese and Arabic.)




                        I find the analysis of translation problems involving other languages
                        can be surprisingly
                        useful for throwing light on awkward areas in Czech-English
                        translation work. For example,
                        in another textbook I have, 'Thinking Translation - a Course in
                        Translation Method - French to
                        English' there are dozens of useful ideas applicable to Czech-English
                        problems, e.g.:

                        "The degree to which a text hangs together is known as its cogency
                        [...]. The source
                        language may have different standards of cogency from the target
                        language. What counts
                        for normal, rational cogency in texts in one culture may give the
                        appearance of lack of
                        rational cogency or excessive fussiness to members of another
                        culture."

                        Or how about this passage on hyponyms and hyperonyms?

                        "In the absence of plausible synonyms, translating by a hyperonym or a
                        hyponym is standard
                        practice and entirely unremarkable. Indeed choosing a hyperonym or
                        hyponym where a
                        synonym does exist may actually be the mark of a good translation. For
                        instance, even racy
                        French narratives of battle often use 'fusant' or 'percutant; instead
                        of the generic word 'obus',
                        but in English, specifying 'time-shell' or 'percussion-fuse shell'
                        would usually be clumsily
                        unidiomatic; in all but the most technical contexts, the hyperonym
                        'shell' is the appropriate
                        translation".

                        I'd be interested to hear ideas on other cases in Czech<>English
                        translation work where one
                        language conventionally uses a hyperonym in relation to the other
                        language. The classic
                        example must be that of hrib<mushroom.


                        I find "In Other Words" is also inspiring even when it is dealing
                        with Arabic or Chinese!

                        For example, the description of Chinese as a "topic-prominent"
                        language (in which a general
                        topic is given at the beginning of a sentence, e.g. "Animals, I
                        advocate a conservation policy"
                        or "Fish, cod is delicious") helped me to focus on one aspect of
                        formal Czech sentences
                        which I had previously found elusively awkward: those sentences
                        beginning with 'ohledne',
                        'vzhledem k', 'pokud jde o' etc.

                        Here are some comments from "In Other Words" which you may find
                        relevant to this
                        problem:

                        "Topic-comment structures such as those given above are sometimes
                        translated into English
                        as, for instance, "Concerning animals....", "As for fish..." etc.
                        There is, of course, a limit to
                        how often this can be done in English. It is a marked structure in the
                        sense of being relatively
                        infrequent".

                        "Chafe (1976) suggest that it is incorrect to translate a
                        Chinese-style topic with an English
                        expression such as "as for". This is because the English expression
                        suggests
                        _contrastiveness_. A statement such as "As for animals, I advocate a
                        conservation policy"
                        implies that animals are being contrasted with something else for
                        which the speaker
                        perhaps does not advocate a conservation policy. The Chinese
                        structure, on the other hand,
                        need not imply any contrast."

                        "King (1990) ['The Syntax of Topic Organization in English and Greek']
                        suggests that
                        topicalization, as evident in the use of [Greek} expressions [meaning]
                        something like 'as for'
                        or 'with regards to' is more common in Greek than in English and that
                        Greek learners of
                        English tend to overuse this structure."

                        Comments, anyone?


                        In the section which reveals that an Arab will find nothing unusual
                        about long paragraphs
                        without full stops and only connected up with simple conjunctions,
                        there is also a very useful
                        item on the problems of fusing or splitting sentences.

                        Because I deal with a lot of tourist literature for public
                        consumption, I made a rather
                        contentious generalization on the Czechlist resources page that Czech
                        sentences often
                        need to be fused together and smoothed over in English, otherwise you
                        can end up with a
                        rather jerky 'spoon-feeding' effect. Simon Vollam quite rightly pulled
                        me up on this point and
                        said that in bureaucratic texts the opposite is more usually the case.

                        Another important area of concern is that of word order. Sometimes the
                        Czech order of ideas
                        has to be maintained at all costs so as to keep a key-word together
                        with its conjunction. It would be an interesting exercise to draw up a
                        list of all the lexical, grammatical and
                        syntactic devices that can be used in English to make the order of
                        ideas more flexible e.g. the passive voice, the "possessive passive",
                        the "perceptive passive",
                        converse verbs [to own x to belong] (see the Czechlist resources
                        page).

                        I'd also be interested to hear of any other translation textbooks that
                        you have found useful.

                        Regards,

                        Melvyn
                        Czechlist resources page:
                        http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7953/Intro.html
                      • jpelka@seznam.cz
                        ... Hello Melvyn, et al, curiously, I was not able to find hyponym or hyperonym in any English dictionary including unabridged (generic) Webster.
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jan 9, 2001
                        • 0 Attachment
                          > Or how about this passage on hyponyms and hyperonyms?

                          Hello Melvyn, et al,

                          curiously, I was not able to find "hyponym" or "hyperonym" in any
                          English dictionary including unabridged (generic) Webster. Amazingly,
                          and appreciatingly, I could find it in the Czech "Akademicky slovnik
                          cizich slov".

                          Well, correct me if I´m wrong, Melvyn, "hyperonym" ("hyperonymum" in
                          Czech) is the word that is, as to its meaning, superior to an
                          inferior word, "hyponym" ("hyponymum" in Czech); "hyperonym" then
                          describes higher class and vice versa, e.g. tree (hyperonym) v. lime-
                          tree (hyponym).

                          >
                          > "In the absence of plausible synonyms, translating by a hyperonym
                          or a
                          > hyponym is standard
                          > practice and entirely unremarkable. Indeed choosing a hyperonym or
                          > hyponym where a
                          > synonym does exist may actually be the mark of a good translation.
                          For
                          > instance, even racy
                          > French narratives of battle often use 'fusant' or 'percutant;
                          instead
                          > of the generic word 'obus',
                          > but in English, specifying 'time-shell' or 'percussion-fuse shell'
                          > would usually be clumsily
                          > unidiomatic; in all but the most technical contexts, the hyperonym
                          > 'shell' is the appropriate
                          > translation".

                          Looks like the case of "account(s)" in English that equals to
                          German "Rechnung", "Abschluss", "Buchhaltung", "Kunde", or the
                          Czech "ucet", "ucetni zaverka", "ucetnictvi", "zakaznik".

                          or,

                          other way round, German "Sachanlage" being equivalent to the
                          English "capital goods", "tangibles", tangible goods", "tangible
                          capital goods", "investment assets" etc. (this is a real case one can
                          see when comparing German and English version of the Official Journal
                          of European Communities with regulations on structural business
                          statistics).

                          > Another important area of concern is that of word order. Sometimes
                          the
                          > Czech order of ideas
                          > has to be maintained at all costs so as to keep a key-word together
                          > with its conjunction.
                          Not unlike English, Czech is flexible -
                          Mame doma dva kone
                          Mame dva kone doma
                          Mame dva doma kone (colloquial)
                          Mame doma kone dva
                          Mame kone doma dva (coll.)
                          Mame kone dva doma
                          Doma mame dva kone
                          Doma mame kone dva
                          Doma kone mame dva
                          Doma kone dva mame
                          Doma dva kone mame
                          Doma dva mame kone
                          Dva kone doma mame
                          Dva kone mame doma
                          Dva mame doma kone (coll.)
                          Dva mame kone doma
                          Dva doma kone mame
                          Dva doma mame kone
                          Kone mame doma dva
                          Kone mame dva doma
                          Kone doma mame dva
                          Kone doma dva mame (unnaturally sounding)
                          Kone dva mame doma (unnat.)
                          Kone dva doma mame (unnat.)

                          More or less, one can use all sentence permutations - they definitely
                          have slightly different meanings and stress different things, and in
                          some cases they are rather unnaturally sounding unless they refer to
                          previous contextual sentence or question. Some "weird" sentences
                          sound, on the other hand, quite poetically...

                          Jirka P.
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.