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Re: [Czechlist] CHAT: Kritika Cechu

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  • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
    ... vychovavali ... Yes, this is the correct way to criticize a person or a nation. ... Yes, this is improper and can be the result of one of two things: (1)
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 2, 2001
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      In a message dated 1/2/01 12:01:28 AM, padamek@... writes:

      >V obecne rovine bych chtel ke kritice Cechu ze strany cizincu pouzit toto
      >prirovnani:
      >Co beru:
      >"Chlapce, dekuji ti za pozvani. Pri obede jsem si vsiml, ze nevis, ze se
      >ryby jedi zvlastnim priborem. Chapu, ze ti brzy umreli rodice a tebe
      vychovavali
      >v detskem domove, takze to nevis, ale az k nam prijdes na obed, tak to
      >vedet musis."

      Yes, this is the correct way to criticize a person or a nation.

      >Co neberu:
      >"Tak si, pratele, predstavte, ze jsem byl u toho blbce z decaku na obede
      >a on vubec nevi, ze se na ryby pouziva zvlastni pribor. Vidlicku drzi jako
      >prase kost, a to si ten vul mysli, ze ho nekdy pozvu na obed, hohoho!"

      Yes, this is improper and can be the result of one of two things: (1) the
      person doing the criticizing may be primitive, or (2) the whole time he was
      watching the Czech use the wrong eating utensil, the Czech was arrogantly
      going on about how primitive Americans are, how culturally superior Czechs
      are to them, how vulgar American TV is (not acknowledging the far greater
      degree of obscenity now present on Czech TV), how Americans are idiots
      because they have no beer culture, how we are poorly educated, how American
      cuisine (or as some Czechs like to call it, "American kitchen") consists only
      of hamburgers, and my favorite misconception that some Czechs repeatedly
      assert -- how Americans always talk about sex but never actually engage in it.

      I see my own behavior in both methods you've presented. I guess for most
      Czechs I deal with things in terms of polite correction, but when I encounter
      the type of Czech who has an aggressive superiority complex that comes from a
      severe inferiority complex, I am liable to respond sarcastically. It's not
      right for me to act that way, but I sometimes do.

      Jamie
    • Melvyn Clarke
      Hello Petr, Tomas, Jamie and all, ... vsiml, ze nevis, ze se ... rodice a tebe vychovavali ... na obed, tak to ... Well, yes, if the person(s) involved really
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 3, 2001
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        Hello Petr, Tomas, Jamie and all,

        Petr wrote:
        >V obecne rovine bych chtel ke kritice Cechu ze strany cizincu pouzit
        toto prirovnani:

        >Co beru:
        >"Chlapce, dekuji ti za pozvani. Pri obede jsem si
        vsiml, ze nevis, ze se
        >ryby jedi zvlastnim priborem. Chapu, ze ti brzy umreli
        rodice a tebe
        vychovavali
        >v detskem domove, takze to nevis, ale az k nam prijdes
        na obed, tak to
        >vedet musis."

        Jamie wrote:
        >Yes, this is the correct way to criticize a person or a nation.

        Well, yes, if the person(s) involved really did have some extenuating
        circumstances in their
        past. But what if the behaviour to be criticized stems from the
        arrogance and presumption of
        an upbringing within an empowered elite, (which can equally be the
        case whether you are
        Czech, British, American or whatever)?. (What if the orphanage
        metaphor only applies
        because the miscreant fish-knifed his parents:)?) My point is that if
        you are speculating
        about seemingly prevalent behaviour in a particular country, there
        soon comes a time when
        you have to stop talking in terms of nationality and start thinking in
        terms of interest-groups,
        pressure-groups, individuals, sexes, regions, constituencies, classes,
        elites, cliques and so forth.



        Petr continued:

        abych si to precetl cele, ale z toho, co Melvyn pretiskl, mam pocit,
        ze se Pynsent vyziva v tom, jak je chytry a jak ty Cechy stira.

        You have to bear in mind, Petr, that Robert Pynsent likes to cultivate
        a larger-than-life
        iconoclastic image with his apodictic pronouncements and categorical
        utterances. It's all part
        of his flamboyant style and you are not the first to comment on it.

        >Pripomina mi naseho Jana Rejzka, ten je take nejchytrejsi na svete.

        Maybe the comparison is good. In amongst all his vacuous posturising,
        Jan Rejzek occasionally does something useful like having a go at
        Karel Gott, with whom many people are far
        too polite IMNSHO. Pynsent can play a similar role.

        Interesting, Tom, that you mention Ladislav Klima. I was surprised at
        first that Dr Pynsent did
        not bring him up as one of the great writers to emerge from the Czech
        lands because (did
        you notice?) his entire style and presentation seems to be imbued with
        Klima's playful deconstruction and sloganizing, do-it-yourself cosmic
        worldview, apodictic, categorical and often playfully contradictory
        utterances etc etc. It can be amusing in a newspaper article. I know
        for a fact that Pynsent is a big fan of L. Klima because I spent many
        happy hours with him at SSEES in the early eighties preparing my
        dissertation on Klima's work.

        Petr wrote:

        >Co neberu:
        >"Tak si, pratele, predstavte, ze jsem byl u toho blbce
        z decaku na obede
        >a on vubec nevi, ze se na ryby pouziva zvlastni pribor.
        Vidlicku drzi jako
        >prase kost, a to si ten vul mysli, ze ho nekdy pozvu na
        obed, hohoho!"

        Jamie commented:

        >Yes, this is improper and can be the result of one of
        two things: (1) the
        person doing the criticizing may be primitive, or (2)
        the whole time he was
        watching the Czech use the wrong eating utensil, the
        Czech was arrogantly
        going on about how primitive Americans are, <snip>

        Comments like that just sound to me again like somebody making
        categorical statements
        for the sake of effect. I'd either treat them on that level if humour
        or 'rejpani' (taunting?) is clearly
        intended (which I find OK in small doses), or make it very clear that
        non-stop sensation-
        seeking gets boring after a short while. I don't see the point of
        getting hung up about people
        who insist on seeing the world in national terms all the time.

        My new year's resolution: definitely no more categorical statements!

        Melvyn
      • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
        ... I categorically agree!
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 3, 2001
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          In a message dated 1/3/01 7:49:36 AM, zehrovak@... writes:

          >My new year's resolution: definitely no more categorical statements!

          I categorically agree!
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