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Re: [Czechlist] TERMs: jednatel spolecnosti versus vykonny reditel

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  • Valerie Talacko
    I think executive officer is best for jednatel, since company agent could be someone outside the company. Valerie
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 27, 2011
      I think "executive officer" is best for jednatel, since company agent
      could be someone outside the company.

      Valerie

      On Wed, 2011-07-27 at 09:16 +0200, Stephan von Pohl wrote:
      >
      > Ugh! I hate the jednatel.
      >
      > For "vykonni reditel" I go with "executive director".
      >
      > For "jednatel" I have alternatingly used "company agent" or
      > "executive
      > officer"
      >
      > Steve
      >
      > On 7/27/2011 9:05 AM, Jirka Bolech wrote:
      > > Zdravim vsechny:
      > >
      > > rad bych slysel vice nazoru na klasicky problem: preklad oznaceni
      > > podnikovych funkci. Konkretne mi jde o funcke "jednatel spolecnosti"
      > a
      > > "vykonny reditel".
      > >
      > > Diky predem za prispevky...
      > >
      > > Jirka Bolech
      > >
      > > _______________________________________________
      > > Czechlist mailing list
      > > Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
      > > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Matej Klimes
      What happened to the good old managing director for jednatel?? To me, it s the same as translating bytove druzstvo - it s a Czech-specific concept and the
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 27, 2011
        What happened to the good old managing director for jednatel??

        To me, it's the same as translating bytove druzstvo - it's a
        Czech-specific concept and the translation is almost always intended
        for audience in or having something to do with the Czech Rep., so
        there's no point in inventing translations that sound good and/or exist
        in other countries (because bytove druzstvo as such does not)...

        I've always used managing director for jednatel of an s.r.o., remember,
        a jednatel has (but doesn't have to have) the right to sign documents
        and contracts for the company and he/she may or may not actually run
        the company (i.e. be an executive anything)... I personally think
        managing director is vague enough to cover all of that and established
        enough in Cz to ENg translations (and within the context of Czech Rep)
        to be a good solution, but then maybe I just got used to it...

        Is there a problem with 'managing director' that non-native ears may
        not detect?

        Matej
        ------ Original Message ------
        From: "Valerie Talacko" <valerie@...>
        To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: 27.7.2011 9:31:37
        Subject: Re: [Czechlist] TERMs: jednatel spolecnosti versus vykonny
        reditel
        > I think "executive officer" is best for jednatel, since company agent
        >could be someone outside the company.
        >
        >Valerie
        >
        >On Wed, 2011-07-27 at 09:16 +0200, Stephan von Pohl wrote:
        >>
        >> Ugh! I hate the jednatel.
        >>
        >> For "vykonni reditel" I go with "executive director".
        >>
        >> For "jednatel" I have alternatingly used "company agent" or
        >> "executive
        >> officer"
        >>
        >> Steve
        >>
        >> On 7/27/2011 9:05 AM, Jirka Bolech wrote:
        >> > Zdravim vsechny:
        >> >
        >> > rad bych slysel vice nazoru na klasicky problem: preklad oznaceni
        >> > podnikovych funkci. Konkretne mi jde o funcke "jednatel
        >spolecnosti"
        >> a
        >> > "vykonny reditel".
        >> >
        >> > Diky predem za prispevky...
        >> >
        >> > Jirka Bolech
        >> >
        >> > _______________________________________________
        >> > Czechlist mailing list
        >> > Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
        >> > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
        >> >
        >> >
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >__________ Informace od ESET Smart Security, verze databaze 6327
        >(20110726) __________
        >
        >Tuto zpravu proveril ESET Smart Security.
        >
        >http://www.eset.cz/


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Valerie Talacko
        Only that I had thought a jednatel did always have the right to execute, i.e. deal/sign on behalf of the company.
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 27, 2011
          Only that I had thought a jednatel did always have the right to execute,
          i.e. deal/sign on behalf of the company.

          On Wed, 2011-07-27 at 09:08 +0000, Matej Klimes wrote:
          >
          > What happened to the good old managing director for jednatel??
          >
          > To me, it's the same as translating bytove druzstvo - it's a
          > Czech-specific concept and the translation is almost always intended
          > for audience in or having something to do with the Czech Rep., so
          > there's no point in inventing translations that sound good and/or
          > exist
          > in other countries (because bytove druzstvo as such does not)...
          >
          > I've always used managing director for jednatel of an s.r.o.,
          > remember,
          > a jednatel has (but doesn't have to have) the right to sign documents
          > and contracts for the company and he/she may or may not actually run
          > the company (i.e. be an executive anything)... I personally think
          > managing director is vague enough to cover all of that and
          > established
          > enough in Cz to ENg translations (and within the context of Czech
          > Rep)
          > to be a good solution, but then maybe I just got used to it...
          >
          > Is there a problem with 'managing director' that non-native ears may
          > not detect?
          >
          > Matej
          > ------ Original Message ------
          > From: "Valerie Talacko" <valerie@...>
          > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: 27.7.2011 9:31:37
          > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] TERMs: jednatel spolecnosti versus vykonny
          > reditel
          > > I think "executive officer" is best for jednatel, since company
          > agent
          > >could be someone outside the company.
          > >
          > >Valerie
          > >
          > >On Wed, 2011-07-27 at 09:16 +0200, Stephan von Pohl wrote:
          > >>
          > >> Ugh! I hate the jednatel.
          > >>
          > >> For "vykonni reditel" I go with "executive director".
          > >>
          > >> For "jednatel" I have alternatingly used "company agent" or
          > >> "executive
          > >> officer"
          > >>
          > >> Steve
          > >>
          > >> On 7/27/2011 9:05 AM, Jirka Bolech wrote:
          > >> > Zdravim vsechny:
          > >> >
          > >> > rad bych slysel vice nazoru na klasicky problem: preklad oznaceni
          > >> > podnikovych funkci. Konkretne mi jde o funcke "jednatel
          > >spolecnosti"
          > >> a
          > >> > "vykonny reditel".
          > >> >
          > >> > Diky predem za prispevky...
          > >> >
          > >> > Jirka Bolech
          > >> >
          > >> > _______________________________________________
          > >> > Czechlist mailing list
          > >> > Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
          > >> > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
          > >> >
          > >> >
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >__________ Informace od ESET Smart Security, verze databaze 6327
          > >(20110726) __________
          > >
          > >Tuto zpravu proveril ESET Smart Security.
          > >
          > >http://www.eset.cz/
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Stephan von Pohl
          Exactly. To my native English ears managing director sounds like he is a manager at the company and directs company affairs (whereas the jednatel is/does
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 27, 2011
            Exactly. To my native English ears "managing director" sounds like he is
            a manager at the company and directs company affairs (whereas the
            jednatel is/does neither). "Executive" doesn't necessarily sound like he
            (or she) is the CEO, but merely that he has executive powers, i.e., the
            power to execute/act in the company's name, as Valerie wrote.

            Martin Chroma's legal dictionary translates jednatel it as "company
            agent" (US) and "director" (UK), but to be honest, I don't always trust
            Czech-English dictionaries, and in this case I would avoid the word
            "director". Curious to hear what UK people have to say about it.

            S

            On 7/27/2011 11:46 AM, Valerie Talacko wrote:
            > Only that I had thought a jednatel did always have the right to execute,
            > i.e. deal/sign on behalf of the company.
            >
            > On Wed, 2011-07-27 at 09:08 +0000, Matej Klimes wrote:
            > >
            > > What happened to the good old managing director for jednatel??
            > >
            > > To me, it's the same as translating bytove druzstvo - it's a
            > > Czech-specific concept and the translation is almost always intended
            > > for audience in or having something to do with the Czech Rep., so
            > > there's no point in inventing translations that sound good and/or
            > > exist
            > > in other countries (because bytove druzstvo as such does not)...
            > >
            > > I've always used managing director for jednatel of an s.r.o.,
            > > remember,
            > > a jednatel has (but doesn't have to have) the right to sign documents
            > > and contracts for the company and he/she may or may not actually run
            > > the company (i.e. be an executive anything)... I personally think
            > > managing director is vague enough to cover all of that and
            > > established
            > > enough in Cz to ENg translations (and within the context of Czech
            > > Rep)
            > > to be a good solution, but then maybe I just got used to it...
            > >
            > > Is there a problem with 'managing director' that non-native ears may
            > > not detect?
            > >
            > > Matej
            > > ------ Original Message ------
            > > From: "Valerie Talacko" <valerie@...
            > <mailto:valerie%40valerietalacko.com>>
            > > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > Sent: 27.7.2011 9:31:37
            > > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] TERMs: jednatel spolecnosti versus vykonny
            > > reditel
            > > > I think "executive officer" is best for jednatel, since company
            > > agent
            > > >could be someone outside the company.
            > > >
            > > >Valerie
            > > >
            > > >On Wed, 2011-07-27 at 09:16 +0200, Stephan von Pohl wrote:
            > > >>
            > > >> Ugh! I hate the jednatel.
            > > >>
            > > >> For "vykonni reditel" I go with "executive director".
            > > >>
            > > >> For "jednatel" I have alternatingly used "company agent" or
            > > >> "executive
            > > >> officer"
            > > >>
            > > >> Steve
            > > >>
            > > >> On 7/27/2011 9:05 AM, Jirka Bolech wrote:
            > > >> > Zdravim vsechny:
            > > >> >
            > > >> > rad bych slysel vice nazoru na klasicky problem: preklad oznaceni
            > > >> > podnikovych funkci. Konkretne mi jde o funcke "jednatel
            > > >spolecnosti"
            > > >> a
            > > >> > "vykonny reditel".
            > > >> >
            > > >> > Diky predem za prispevky...
            > > >> >
            > > >> > Jirka Bolech
            > > >> >
            > > >> > _______________________________________________
            > > >> > Czechlist mailing list
            > > >> > Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
            > <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
            > > >> > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
            > > >> >
            > > >> >
            > > >>
            > > >>
            > > >>
            > > >>
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >__________ Informace od ESET Smart Security, verze databaze 6327
            > > >(20110726) __________
            > > >
            > > >Tuto zpravu proveril ESET Smart Security.
            > > >
            > > >http://www.eset.cz/
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
          • Jirka Bolech
            Thanks guys for all your answers, Steve, Valerie, and Matej, It seems like executive officer is winning as a translation for jednatel spolecnosti while
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 27, 2011
              Thanks guys for all your answers, Steve, Valerie, and Matej,

              It seems like "executive officer" is winning as a translation for
              "jednatel spolecnosti" while "executive director" could be one for
              "vykonny reditel".

              It's inetersting to look at this:
              http://www.proz.com/kudoz/czech_to_english/economics/2389807-jednatel%C3%A9_spole%C4%8Dnosti.html.

              I asked the person who had asked me this question about differences
              between the two positions in practical terms. He tells me that a
              "jednatel" is elected in an Annual General Meeting but may not do the
              executive day-to-day management of the business and may only supervise
              it as carried out by "vykonny reditel". There are of course businesses
              with only one "jednatel" who is "vykonny reditel" as well.

              Perhaps there'll still be some more input on this...

              Jirka Bolech

              _______________________________________________
              Czechlist mailing list
              Czechlist@...
              http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
            • Melvyn
              ... Actually, we have been discussing this and similar questions since 1999. :-) Check out the archives, e.g.
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 29, 2011
                --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Jirka Bolech <jirka.bolech@...> wrote:

                > Perhaps there'll still be some more input on this...

                Actually, we have been discussing this and similar questions since 1999. :-) Check out the archives, e.g.

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/41633


                FWIW a colleague who completed one of those 10,000 Kc courses in legal translation in Prague tells me that the legal people on the course, who deal with these matters on an everyday basis, go along inter alia with the suggestions for jednatel in the above message. :-)

                Found three threads on this subject in ProZ too. :-)).

                BR

                M.
              • Jirka Bolech
                Hi Melvyn, Thanks for your input too and sorry for responding with a delay. I did fail to search Czechlist s archive. Frankly, I m not sure what I should make
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 2, 2011
                  Hi Melvyn,

                  Thanks for your input too and sorry for responding with a delay.

                  I did fail to search Czechlist's archive. Frankly, I'm not sure what I
                  should make out of the discussion you've provided the link to. Perhaps
                  I'm not patient enough. By the way, I myself put a link to one of the
                  ProZ KudoZ dicussions on the topic of 'jednatel' only; a one whose
                  conclusion was 'jednatel' is 'executive director'.

                  I still see some ambiguity in the topic and it might be outright silly
                  to try to translate 'jednatel' in the first place; it could deserve a
                  new expression in English to convey this position relevantly but maybe
                  just a different approach in translating it. I find it strange when that
                  friend of mine, who asked me to help him with the translation of the two
                  expressions, explains to me that a 'jednatel' may not be necessarily
                  very 'executive' at all. Is he right?

                  I trust most 'jednatele' are pretty much executives but what's for
                  'vykonny reditel', then? I'm not sure if the topic has been discussed on
                  Czechlist in this light.

                  It's further interesting to see in web search that 'executive officer',
                  not preceded with 'chief', is not really used (much) in business context
                  in English speaking countries. Is this the justification of using it as
                  a translation of something as exotic as 'jednatel'?

                  'Vcil dumaj', should I resort to a dialect that sounds more expressive
                  than my ordinary mainstream Czech talk.

                  Anyway, I don't have any ambitions to recreate the wheel, so unless I
                  hear something better, I'll take 'jednatel' for 'executive officer' and
                  'vykonny reditel' for 'executive director'. I hope to at least go with
                  the crowd doing so although that's more an alibi than guarantee of
                  correctness...

                  Jirka Bolech

                  Guess I had a long while to waste...

                  _______________________________________________
                  Czechlist mailing list
                  Czechlist@...
                  http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                • Jan Culka
                  Hi all, musím ríct, ze s tímhle mám vzdy a znovu problém. Vzdycky jsem si myslel, ze executive director nebo CEO je zamestnanec, kdezto jednatel = majitel
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 2, 2011
                    Hi all,

                    musím ríct, ze s tímhle mám vzdy a znovu problém.
                    Vzdycky jsem si myslel, ze executive director nebo CEO je zamestnanec, kdezto jednatel = majitel (jeden z majitelu, podílníku).
                    Fakt je, ze v rade podniku u nás jsou tyto funkce kombinované (nás CEO je soucasne jediným jednatelem firmy).
                    Situaci mi komplikuje preklad podle rady C-A slovníku, kde jednatel = agent, coz vypadá jako nekdo, kdo je zástupcem pro nejaké druhy jednání, ale rozhodne nevypadá jako (spolu)majitel.
                    Tak jak z toho ven?
                    Honza



                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Jirka Bolech
                    To: czechlist@...
                    Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 10:05 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Czechlist] TERMs: jednatel spolecnosti versus vykonny reditel



                    Hi Melvyn,

                    Thanks for your input too and sorry for responding with a delay.

                    I did fail to search Czechlist's archive. Frankly, I'm not sure what I
                    should make out of the discussion you've provided the link to. Perhaps
                    I'm not patient enough. By the way, I myself put a link to one of the
                    ProZ KudoZ dicussions on the topic of 'jednatel' only; a one whose
                    conclusion was 'jednatel' is 'executive director'.

                    I still see some ambiguity in the topic and it might be outright silly
                    to try to translate 'jednatel' in the first place; it could deserve a
                    new expression in English to convey this position relevantly but maybe
                    just a different approach in translating it. I find it strange when that
                    friend of mine, who asked me to help him with the translation of the two
                    expressions, explains to me that a 'jednatel' may not be necessarily
                    very 'executive' at all. Is he right?

                    I trust most 'jednatele' are pretty much executives but what's for
                    'vykonny reditel', then? I'm not sure if the topic has been discussed on
                    Czechlist in this light.

                    It's further interesting to see in web search that 'executive officer',
                    not preceded with 'chief', is not really used (much) in business context
                    in English speaking countries. Is this the justification of using it as
                    a translation of something as exotic as 'jednatel'?

                    'Vcil dumaj', should I resort to a dialect that sounds more expressive
                    than my ordinary mainstream Czech talk.

                    Anyway, I don't have any ambitions to recreate the wheel, so unless I
                    hear something better, I'll take 'jednatel' for 'executive officer' and
                    'vykonny reditel' for 'executive director'. I hope to at least go with
                    the crowd doing so although that's more an alibi than guarantee of
                    correctness...

                    Jirka Bolech

                    Guess I had a long while to waste...

                    _______________________________________________
                    Czechlist mailing list
                    Czechlist@...
                    http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Stephan von Pohl
                    Jednatel muze ale nemusi byt majitelem. In English: he has been given executive authority to act (hence the translation agent ) in the company s name. I
                    Message 9 of 11 , Aug 3, 2011
                      Jednatel muze ale nemusi byt majitelem. In English: he has been given
                      executive authority to act (hence the translation "agent") in the
                      company's name. I personally still prefer to place the emphasis on
                      "executive", as in "executive officer". The word agent, although it
                      conveys the sense of "acting" and "agency" sounds (to my ears) too much
                      like all the other agents we know: real estate agent, free agent (in
                      sports), secret agent, etc.

                      Steve

                      On 8/3/2011 7:54 AM, Jan Culka wrote:
                      > Hi all,
                      >
                      > musím ríct, ze s tímhle mám vzdy a znovu problém.
                      > Vzdycky jsem si myslel, ze executive director nebo CEO je zamestnanec,
                      > kdezto jednatel = majitel (jeden z majitelu, podílníku).
                      > Fakt je, ze v rade podniku u nás jsou tyto funkce kombinované (nás CEO
                      > je soucasne jediným jednatelem firmy).
                      > Situaci mi komplikuje preklad podle rady C-A slovníku, kde jednatel =
                      > agent, coz vypadá jako nekdo, kdo je zástupcem pro nejaké druhy jednání,
                      > ale rozhodne nevypadá jako (spolu)majitel.
                      > Tak jak z toho ven?
                      > Honza
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Jirka Bolech
                      > To: czechlist@... <mailto:czechlist%40czechlist.org>
                      > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 10:05 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] TERMs: jednatel spolecnosti versus vykonny reditel
                      >
                      > Hi Melvyn,
                      >
                      > Thanks for your input too and sorry for responding with a delay.
                      >
                      > I did fail to search Czechlist's archive. Frankly, I'm not sure what I
                      > should make out of the discussion you've provided the link to. Perhaps
                      > I'm not patient enough. By the way, I myself put a link to one of the
                      > ProZ KudoZ dicussions on the topic of 'jednatel' only; a one whose
                      > conclusion was 'jednatel' is 'executive director'.
                      >
                      > I still see some ambiguity in the topic and it might be outright silly
                      > to try to translate 'jednatel' in the first place; it could deserve a
                      > new expression in English to convey this position relevantly but maybe
                      > just a different approach in translating it. I find it strange when that
                      > friend of mine, who asked me to help him with the translation of the two
                      > expressions, explains to me that a 'jednatel' may not be necessarily
                      > very 'executive' at all. Is he right?
                      >
                      > I trust most 'jednatele' are pretty much executives but what's for
                      > 'vykonny reditel', then? I'm not sure if the topic has been discussed on
                      > Czechlist in this light.
                      >
                      > It's further interesting to see in web search that 'executive officer',
                      > not preceded with 'chief', is not really used (much) in business context
                      > in English speaking countries. Is this the justification of using it as
                      > a translation of something as exotic as 'jednatel'?
                      >
                      > 'Vcil dumaj', should I resort to a dialect that sounds more expressive
                      > than my ordinary mainstream Czech talk.
                      >
                      > Anyway, I don't have any ambitions to recreate the wheel, so unless I
                      > hear something better, I'll take 'jednatel' for 'executive officer' and
                      > 'vykonny reditel' for 'executive director'. I hope to at least go with
                      > the crowd doing so although that's more an alibi than guarantee of
                      > correctness...
                      >
                      > Jirka Bolech
                      >
                      > Guess I had a long while to waste...
                      >
                      > _______________________________________________
                      > Czechlist mailing list
                      > Czechlist@... <mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org>
                      > http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
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