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RE: [Czechlist] Kmotr

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  • Pilucha, Jiri
    older brother? ________________________________ From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Kirchner Sent: Tuesday,
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 8, 2010
      older brother?

      ________________________________
      From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Kirchner
      Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:40 PM
      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Czechlist] Kmotr



      Does anyone have any suggestions for how to suggest that one machine's control system was "kmotr" to a new one without making it sound like the earlier system was a mafia don?

      Thanks.

      Jamie



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Matej Klimes
      I didn t read the post carefully enough... it probably isn t master/slave, but an older system on which the new one is based... and I would definitely use
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 8, 2010
        I didn't read the post carefully enough... it probably isn't
        master/slave, but an older system on which the new one is based... and
        I would definitely use something neutral like "based on", "new version"
        etc., rather than trying to reproduce the original idea (which sounds
        far fetched and clumsy in Czech anyway)..

        Still think that master/slave is perfectly OK in technical context,
        especially written, though

        M


        ------ Original Message ------
        From: "Pilucha, Jiri" <jiri.pilucha@...>
        To: "Czechlist@yahoogroups.com" <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: 8.9.2010 9:09:04
        Subject: RE: [Czechlist] Kmotr
        > older brother?
        >
        >________________________________
        >From: mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Kirchner
        >Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:40 PM
        >To: mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [Czechlist] Kmotr
        >
        >Does anyone have any suggestions for how to suggest that one machine's
        >control system was "kmotr" to a new one without making it sound like
        >the earlier system was a mafia don?
        >
        >Thanks.
        >
        >Jamie
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • James Kirchner
        Matej, first give up the stereotype of the Southern racist type , because US southerners aren t particularly racist anymore. In fact, the place is so changed
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 8, 2010
          Matej, first give up the stereotype of the "Southern racist type", because US southerners aren't particularly racist anymore. In fact, the place is so changed that there is huge immigration from Africa now to places like Georgia.

          Anyway, while "master/slave" is a perfectly good technical expression, and none of the proposed terms describe it as well, I don't think you realize how hot absolutely any word can be here in some situations. And you never know which word it will be.

          Let's take the classroom as an example: If I used "master/slave" in some IT class, nobody would blink. If some student actually did get angry and go to the dean of the IT department, he would tell the student that it's a technical term and to get over it.

          Conversely, if an ignorant student got angry at me for using it in an English class, and went to the dean of the English department, it is very likely that I'd be called to meet with the dean, lectured on the importance of "diversity" and being sensitive to "the diverse racial makeup of the student body" (they would never mention the student's race out loud), told never to use the term again, and on the second or third "offense" be disciplined in some way. Now, the dean of English might know that "master/slave" in this context is a technical term having nothing to do with race, but at the same time he wants the problem of an angry student to go away, so he "addresses" the issue with me.

          Sometimes this mentality extends to the government sector, as well.

          You see, since the 1960s, many younger Americans have been taught a warped way of processing the world. One day a professor teaching a dialectology class was yelled at by a kid for "stereotyping", because in the kid's mind if there was even one person in Tennessee or Boston who didn't speak with that region's accent, then it negates the whole generalization the prof was making. And of course, all generalizations are "stereotypes", in the students' minds, and stereotyping is the same as "racism", even if there's no racial issue involved.

          I was once called a racist in class because I said I didn't like a certain Middle Eastern dish called "pacha", which is like stuffed cabbage but with lamb stomachs instead of cabbage. The only reason I even knew about that dish was because I was offered it by my girlfriend, who was of the same ethnicity as the people who make it and as the person who accused me of racism for not liking it. If the student had decided to complain to the dean about my proclamation that I didn't like the dish, I would likely have been called to another meeting.

          So you see, many parts of the US are an alternate universe.

          Jamie

          On Sep 7, 2010, at 4:00 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:

          > I have no idea if the kmotr thing was suposed to mean master or slave
          > or something else, I was just guessing, but I can assure you that in US
          > technical texts (IT, machinery, automation, whatever), master/slave is
          > perfectly OK... I can imagine it being a problem if some Southern
          > racist type said it one too many times in front of a black sales person
          > with some sort of a vicious wink, but in a written technical document,
          > I can't imagine anybody complaining... and I can imagine the mess
          > (technical mess) that would result from someone trying to replace the
          > words with something PC .. come on, it's a technical expression, it's
          > used for many things, not just HDD's, and there isn't a synonym that
          > would work and be recognised... we don't really have a translation in
          > Czech and most technical people will be OK with master/slave appearing
          > in the middle of a Czech sentence (most of them having no clue what it
          > once meant..).
          >
          > Are you really trying to tell us that editors would get rid of it in a
          > technical document? In the ones I've had the pleasure to read/translate
          > ever since I learnt English certainly did not and it never occured to
          > me it couled be a problem ..
          >
          > M
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------ Original Message ------
          > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
          > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: 7.9.2010 17:15:13
          > Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Czechlist] Kmotr
          > >Well, this is in US English and we have to avoid those associations. :-)
          > >
          > >We're all so paranoid that once I was discussing master/slave hard drives with a black salesman. I was getting more and more nervous that he was going to be offended, but he didn't seem to be noticing anything. Use those terms in front of some of my students, and I'll have to meet with an administrator.
          > >
          > >Jamie
          > >
          > >On Sep 7, 2010, at 10:58 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >>
          > >>It could also be an innovative translation of either "master", or
          > >>"slave" as in master/slave
          > >>M
          > >>
          > >>------ Original Message ------
          > >>From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
          > >>To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
          > >>Sent: 7.9.2010 16:55:27
          > >>Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Kmotr
          > >>>They're all applicable. I wanted to find a similar image, without the pools of blood on the street, but I couldn't. I just said "based on", as you suggested.
          > >>>
          > >>>Thanks very much.
          > >>>
          > >>>Jamie
          > >>>
          > >>>On Sep 7, 2010, at 10:48 AM, Jan Culka wrote:
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>was based on, has (been) developed from, is a new development of the former one, uses experience gained from, the older one was a predecessor of the new one, was a kind parent of .. is any variant applicable?
          > >>>>Honza
          > >>>>
          > >>>>----- Original Message -----
          > >>>>From: James Kirchner
          > >>>>To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
          > >>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:39 PM
          > >>>>Subject: [Czechlist] Kmotr
          > >>>>
          > >>>>Does anyone have any suggestions for how to suggest that one machine's control system was "kmotr" to a new one without making it sound like the earlier system was a mafia don?
          > >>>>
          > >>>>Thanks.
          > >>>>
          > >>>>Jamie
          > >>>>
          > >>>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>------------------------------------
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >------------------------------------
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Pilucha, Jiri
          I mean, elder, of course (but it does not seem to have met with enthusiastic response anyway :)) ________________________________ From: Pilucha, Jiri Sent:
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 8, 2010
            I mean, elder, of course (but it does not seem to have met with enthusiastic response anyway :))

            ________________________________
            From: Pilucha, Jiri
            Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 9:09 AM
            To: 'Czechlist@yahoogroups.com'
            Subject: RE: [Czechlist] Kmotr

            older brother?

            ________________________________
            From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Kirchner
            Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:40 PM
            To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Czechlist] Kmotr



            Does anyone have any suggestions for how to suggest that one machine's control system was "kmotr" to a new one without making it sound like the earlier system was a mafia don?

            Thanks.

            Jamie



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • James Kirchner
            In US English we would say older , rather than elder . However, in using the expression in this sort of context we would probably say big brother (which
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 8, 2010
              In US English we would say "older", rather than "elder". However, in using the expression in this sort of context we would probably say "big brother" (which is not the same as "Big Brother"). I also thought of using "granddaddy", but the earlier technology wasn't old enough.

              Thanks for the suggestion, though.

              By the way, I think it's dangerous to teach "elder" to ESL students, because they get it confused with "elderly". Once, after meeting a charming but very young woman, a 35-ish German engineer asked me, "I wonder if she has an elderly sister!"

              Jamie

              On Sep 8, 2010, at 10:48 AM, Pilucha, Jiri wrote:

              > I mean, elder, of course (but it does not seem to have met with enthusiastic response anyway :))
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Pilucha, Jiri
              > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 9:09 AM
              > To: 'Czechlist@yahoogroups.com'
              > Subject: RE: [Czechlist] Kmotr
              >
              > older brother?
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Kirchner
              > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:40 PM
              > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [Czechlist] Kmotr
              >
              > Does anyone have any suggestions for how to suggest that one machine's control system was "kmotr" to a new one without making it sound like the earlier system was a mafia don?
              >
              > Thanks.
              >
              > Jamie
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Alena Ryšková 2e
              gerontophile :-)? Alena ... From: James Kirchner To: Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 4:58 PM
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 8, 2010
                gerontophile :-)?
                Alena

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 4:58 PM
                Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Kmotr


                > In US English we would say "older", rather than "elder". However, in
                > using the expression in this sort of context we would probably say "big
                > brother" (which is not the same as "Big Brother"). I also thought of
                > using "granddaddy", but the earlier technology wasn't old enough.
                >
                > Thanks for the suggestion, though.
                >
                > By the way, I think it's dangerous to teach "elder" to ESL students,
                > because they get it confused with "elderly". Once, after meeting a
                > charming but very young woman, a 35-ish German engineer asked me, "I
                > wonder if she has an elderly sister!"
                >
                > Jamie
                >
                > On Sep 8, 2010, at 10:48 AM, Pilucha, Jiri wrote:
                >
                >> I mean, elder, of course (but it does not seem to have met with
                >> enthusiastic response anyway :))
                >>
                >> ________________________________
                >> From: Pilucha, Jiri
                >> Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 9:09 AM
                >> To: 'Czechlist@yahoogroups.com'
                >> Subject: RE: [Czechlist] Kmotr
                >>
                >> older brother?
                >>
                >> ________________________________
                >> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
                >> Behalf Of James Kirchner
                >> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:40 PM
                >> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                >> Subject: [Czechlist] Kmotr
                >>
                >> Does anyone have any suggestions for how to suggest that one machine's
                >> control system was "kmotr" to a new one without making it sound like the
                >> earlier system was a mafia don?
                >>
                >> Thanks.
                >>
                >> Jamie
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Pilucha, Jiri
                I wanted to avoid big brother for exactly the same reason why you wanted to avoid godfather :)) Jiri ... From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 9, 2010
                  I wanted to avoid big brother for exactly the same reason why you wanted to avoid godfather :))

                  Jiri

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Kirchner
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 4:58 PM
                  To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Kmotr

                  In US English we would say "older", rather than "elder". However, in using the expression in this sort of context we would probably say "big brother" (which is not the same as "Big Brother"). I also thought of using "granddaddy", but the earlier technology wasn't old enough.

                  Thanks for the suggestion, though.

                  By the way, I think it's dangerous to teach "elder" to ESL students, because they get it confused with "elderly". Once, after meeting a charming but very young woman, a 35-ish German engineer asked me, "I wonder if she has an elderly sister!"

                  Jamie

                  On Sep 8, 2010, at 10:48 AM, Pilucha, Jiri wrote:

                  > I mean, elder, of course (but it does not seem to have met with enthusiastic response anyway :))
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Pilucha, Jiri
                  > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 9:09 AM
                  > To: 'Czechlist@yahoogroups.com'
                  > Subject: RE: [Czechlist] Kmotr
                  >
                  > older brother?
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Kirchner
                  > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:40 PM
                  > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [Czechlist] Kmotr
                  >
                  > Does anyone have any suggestions for how to suggest that one machine's control system was "kmotr" to a new one without making it sound like the earlier system was a mafia don?
                  >
                  > Thanks.
                  >
                  > Jamie
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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