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Re: [Czechlist] záborový elaborát

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  • Sarka Rubkova
    Zábor means temporary rent of municipal land abuting to a site needed for site facilities. It is necessary to have a special permit for it, which usually is a
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 29, 2010
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      Zábor means temporary rent of municipal land abuting to a site needed for
      site facilities. It is necessary to have a special permit for it, which
      usually is a part of building permit,
      Elaborat means probebly a document where it is explained in details why this
      land is needed. It is a sidewalk or a part of a street or even empty space
      that does not belong to the site plot.

      sarka

      -------Original Message-------

      From: Charles Stanford
      Date: 29.8.2010 12:06:25
      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Czechlist] záborový elaborát


      I have been trying to find this term for hours and I think it is one of
      those that I will never find: *záborový elaborát*
      It is in a building permit application and I would be really grateful if
      anyone could provide me with some sort of explanation of what it involves
      (or better still.... what it is called in English... if it exists in
      English...)
      Thank you.
      Charlie

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jirka Bolech
      Hi again, I d say zabor is used is different ways. In the expression zaborovy elaborat it doesn t seem to refer to a temporary arrangement. See also here:
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 29, 2010
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        Hi again,

        I'd say "zabor" is used is different ways. In the expression "zaborovy
        elaborat" it doesn't seem to refer to a temporary arrangement. See also
        here: http://www.pragoprojekt.cz/data/File/Ostrava_prednaska-Sobotka.pdf...

        Jirka Bolech


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      • Matej Klimes
        Sarka is right that zabor usually means using someone else s land during construction to put a crane or site equipment onto... Never heard of a zaborovy
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 29, 2010
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          Sarka is right that zabor usually means using someone else's land
          during construction to put a crane or site equipment onto...

          Never heard of a zaborovy elaborat myself, but what Jirka found
          suggests that it's also (more meaningfully) called Majetkopravni
          elaborat and deals with who owns which land near a construction site
          (of a large infrastructure project, say a motorway, most likely) and
          which plots are going to be used for what purpose (access, site
          equipment, etc., or are going to end up under the road)..

          I'd concentrate on the ownership line... something like 'overview of
          land ownership'??

          M


          ------ Original Message ------
          From: "Jirka Bolech" <jirka.bolech@...>
          To: czechlist@...
          Sent: 29.8.2010 13:18:53
          Subject: Re: [Czechlist] zaborovy elaborat
          > Hi again,
          >
          >I'd say "zabor" is used is different ways. In the expression "zaborovy
          >elaborat" it doesn't seem to refer to a temporary arrangement. See
          >also
          >here: http://www.pragoprojekt.cz/data/File/Ostrava_prednaska-Sobotka.pdf...
          >
          >Jirka Bolech
          >
          >_______________________________________________
          >Czechlist mailing list
          >mailto:Czechlist%40czechlist.org
          >http://www.czechlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/czechlist
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Matej Klimes
          I have this quote in a document about corporate visual identity: „Image je to, co člověk potřebuje, aby si druzí mysleli, že je tím, čím by rád
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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            I have this quote in a document about corporate visual identity:

            „Image je to, co člověk potřebuje, aby si druzí mysleli, že je tím, čím
            by rád byl.“
            Frank-Markus Barwasser, německý novinář a kabaretista

            (hope diacritics are OK)

            I'm trying to find the original German version and then maybe an
            established English translation.. but googling for his name and the
            word image does not help, perhaps the word was different originally -
            anyone has an idea?

            tentative translated version is:

            Image is what one needs for others to think one is what one would like
            to be.

            ... but that sounds a little complicated, van anyone find a German or
            English version of that quote and/or comment on my translation above?

            Thanks a lot, a rush job, of course..

            M


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Alena Ryšková 2e
            http://de.wikiquote.org/wiki/Frank-Markus_Barwasser: Image ist das, was man braucht, damit die andern denken, dass man so ist, wie man gern wär Alena ...
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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              http://de.wikiquote.org/wiki/Frank-Markus_Barwasser:

              "Image ist das, was man braucht, damit die andern denken, dass man so ist, wie man gern wär'
              Alena


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Matej Klimes
              To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 1:12 PM
              Subject: [Czechlist] Complicated ex-German quote



              I have this quote in a document about corporate visual identity:

              „Image je to, co člověk potřebuje, aby si druzí mysleli, že je tím, čím
              by rád byl.“
              Frank-Markus Barwasser, německý novinář a kabaretista

              (hope diacritics are OK)

              I'm trying to find the original German version and then maybe an
              established English translation.. but googling for his name and the
              word image does not help, perhaps the word was different originally -
              anyone has an idea?

              tentative translated version is:

              Image is what one needs for others to think one is what one would like
              to be.

              ... but that sounds a little complicated, van anyone find a German or
              English version of that quote and/or comment on my translation above?

              Thanks a lot, a rush job, of course..

              M

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Romana
              Image ist das, was man braucht, damit die anderen denken, dass man so ist, wie man gerne wär . http://www.zitate-online.net/zitate/MTYyMQ/ From:
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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                Image ist das, was man braucht, damit die anderen denken, dass man so ist, wie man gerne wär'.

                http://www.zitate-online.net/zitate/MTYyMQ/



                From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matej Klimes
                Sent: Monday, 30 August 2010 8:43 PM
                To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [Czechlist] Complicated ex-German quote





                I have this quote in a document about corporate visual identity:

                „Image je to, co člověk potřebuje, aby si druzí mysleli, že je tím, čím
                by rád byl.“
                Frank-Markus Barwasser, německý novinář a kabaretista

                (hope diacritics are OK)

                I'm trying to find the original German version and then maybe an
                established English translation.. but googling for his name and the
                word image does not help, perhaps the word was different originally -
                anyone has an idea?

                tentative translated version is:

                Image is what one needs for others to think one is what one would like
                to be.

                ... but that sounds a little complicated, van anyone find a German or
                English version of that quote and/or comment on my translation above?

                Thanks a lot, a rush job, of course..

                M

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Hana Jarolímová
                nemecky citat jsem vygooglila, pro jistotu jej posilam, ale zavedeny anglicky preklad jsem nenasla Image ist das, was man
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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                  nemecky citat jsem vygooglila, pro jistotu jej posilam, ale zavedeny
                  anglicky preklad jsem nenasla

                  "Image <http://de.wikiquote.org/wiki/Image> ist das, was man braucht,
                  damit die andern denken, dass man so ist, wie man gern wär'." - /aus dem
                  Album "Live - die Erste!"/
                • Prekladatelsky servis
                  Pokusila jsem se na to jit prekladem pres svoji velmi spatnou nemcinu a nasla jsem: Image ist das, was man braucht, damit die andern denken, dass man so ist,
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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                    Pokusila jsem se na to jit prekladem pres svoji velmi spatnou nemcinu a nasla jsem:

                    "Image ist das, was man braucht, damit die andern denken, dass man so ist, wie man gern wär'." - aus dem Album "Live - die Erste!"

                    http://de.wikiquote.org/wiki/Frank-Markus_Barwasser

                    Iveta


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Matej Klimes
                    To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 1:12 PM
                    Subject: [Czechlist] Complicated ex-German quote



                    I have this quote in a document about corporate visual identity:

                    „Image je to, co člověk potřebuje, aby si druzí mysleli, že je tím, čím
                    by rád byl.“
                    Frank-Markus Barwasser, německý novinář a kabaretista

                    (hope diacritics are OK)

                    I'm trying to find the original German version and then maybe an
                    established English translation.. but googling for his name and the
                    word image does not help, perhaps the word was different originally -
                    anyone has an idea?

                    tentative translated version is:

                    Image is what one needs for others to think one is what one would like
                    to be.

                    ... but that sounds a little complicated, van anyone find a German or
                    English version of that quote and/or comment on my translation above?

                    Thanks a lot, a rush job, of course..

                    M

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Matej Klimes
                    Diky vsem, to je divny ze me to Google nedaval... Jestli me ma chaba nemcina nemate, tak muj provizorni preklad jakz takz odpovida, ale porad mi ta veta zni
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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                      Diky vsem, to je divny ze me to Google nedaval...

                      Jestli me ma chaba nemcina nemate, tak muj provizorni preklad jakz takz
                      odpovida, ale porad mi ta veta zni divne, ma nekdo z RMAJu nejake
                      pripominky?

                      Diky

                      M

                      ------ Original Message ------
                      From: "Prekladatelsky servis" <preklady@...>
                      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: 30.8.2010 13:24:29
                      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Complicated ex-German quote
                      > Pokusila jsem se na to jit prekladem pres svoji velmi spatnou nemcinu
                      >a nasla jsem:
                      >
                      >"Image ist das, was man braucht, damit die andern denken, dass man so
                      >ist, wie man gern wär'." - aus dem Album "Live - die Erste!"
                      >
                      >http://de.wikiquote.org/wiki/Frank-Markus_Barwasser
                      >
                      >Iveta
                      >
                      >----- Original Message -----
                      >From: Matej Klimes
                      >To: mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com
                      >Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 1:12 PM
                      >Subject: [Czechlist] Complicated ex-German quote
                      >
                      >I have this quote in a document about corporate visual identity:
                      >
                      >„Image je to, co člověk potřebuje, aby si druzí mysleli, že je tím,
                      >čím
                      >by rád byl.“
                      >Frank-Markus Barwasser, německý novinář a kabaretista
                      >
                      >(hope diacritics are OK)
                      >
                      >I'm trying to find the original German version and then maybe an
                      >established English translation.. but googling for his name and the
                      >word image does not help, perhaps the word was different originally -
                      >anyone has an idea?
                      >
                      >tentative translated version is:
                      >
                      >Image is what one needs for others to think one is what one would like
                      >to be.
                      >
                      >... but that sounds a little complicated, van anyone find a German or
                      >English version of that quote and/or comment on my translation above?
                      >
                      >Thanks a lot, a rush job, of course..
                      >
                      >M
                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • James Kirchner
                      I doubt there s an established translation of this (he s such a famous man in the English-speaking world, after all). If you don t find one, and you have to
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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                        I doubt there's an established translation of this (he's such a famous man in the English-speaking world, after all). If you don't find one, and you have to translate it yourself, get rid of the pronoun "one".

                        "Image is what you need for convincing people that you are what you wish you were."

                        ...or something like that.

                        Jamie

                        On Aug 30, 2010, at 7:12 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:

                        > I have this quote in a document about corporate visual identity:
                        >
                        > „Image je to, co člověk potřebuje, aby si druzí mysleli, že je tím, čím
                        > by rád byl.“
                        > Frank-Markus Barwasser, německý novinář a kabaretista
                        >
                        > (hope diacritics are OK)
                        >
                        > I'm trying to find the original German version and then maybe an
                        > established English translation.. but googling for his name and the
                        > word image does not help, perhaps the word was different originally -
                        > anyone has an idea?
                        >
                        > tentative translated version is:
                        >
                        > Image is what one needs for others to think one is what one would like
                        > to be.
                        >
                        > ... but that sounds a little complicated, van anyone find a German or
                        > English version of that quote and/or comment on my translation above?
                        >
                        > Thanks a lot, a rush job, of course..
                        >
                        > M
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Matej Klimes
                        Yes, that does sound better, thanks... M ... From: James Kirchner To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: 30.8.2010 13:38:41 Subject:
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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                          Yes, that does sound better, thanks...
                          M



                          ------ Original Message ------
                          From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                          To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: 30.8.2010 13:38:41
                          Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Complicated ex-German quote
                          > I doubt there's an established translation of this (he's such a
                          >famous man in the English-speaking world, after all). If you don't
                          >find one, and you have to translate it yourself, get rid of the
                          >pronoun "one".
                          >
                          >"Image is what you need for convincing people that you are what you
                          >wish you were."
                          >
                          >...or something like that.
                          >
                          >Jamie
                          >
                          >On Aug 30, 2010, at 7:12 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                          >
                          >> I have this quote in a document about corporate visual identity:
                          >>
                          >> „Image je to, co člověk potřebuje, aby si druzí mysleli, že je tím,
                          >čím
                          >> by rád byl.“
                          >> Frank-Markus Barwasser, německý novinář a kabaretista
                          >>
                          >> (hope diacritics are OK)
                          >>
                          >> I'm trying to find the original German version and then maybe an
                          >> established English translation.. but googling for his name and the
                          >> word image does not help, perhaps the word was different originally
                          >-
                          >> anyone has an idea?
                          >>
                          >> tentative translated version is:
                          >>
                          >> Image is what one needs for others to think one is what one would
                          >like
                          >> to be.
                          >>
                          >> ... but that sounds a little complicated, van anyone find a German
                          >or
                          >> English version of that quote and/or comment on my translation
                          >above?
                          >>
                          >> Thanks a lot, a rush job, of course..
                          >>
                          >> M
                          >>
                          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Melvyn
                          ... Coming in on this a bit late. ... Agreed. Libuse Duskova wrote an interesting article on Man-Saetze in Czech and English with the various options
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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                            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:


                            Coming in on this a bit late.
                            >
                            > I doubt there's an established translation of this (he's such a famous man in the English-speaking world, after all). If you don't find one, and you have to translate it yourself, get rid of the pronoun "one".

                            Agreed. Libuse Duskova wrote an interesting article on "Man-Saetze in Czech and English" with the various options analysed in some depth. She concludes inter alia: "the second person denoting the general human agent, though represented in both languages, appears to be far more characteristic of English than of Czech."

                            BTW:
                            "In translating from English into Czech, care should be taken not to use the general second person too often under the influence of the original since in longer texts this would create the impression of a mannerism foreign to Czech."

                            Also BTW:
                            "'One' belongs to higher style."

                            (i.e. it can sound rather bombastic and hoity toity [nothing to do with high roofs in France] in the wrong context [and this from a man who writes 'inter alia' with barely a blush].)

                            "In more colloquial contexts a better suited equivalent of 'clovek' may often be sought in 'you'."


                            >
                            > "Image is what you need for convincing people that you are what you wish you were."


                            Okay or how about something along the lines of:

                            "Image is what you need to make people think you (??actually/really) are what you'd like to be"?

                            BR

                            M.
                          • James Kirchner
                            This one strikes me as structurally ambiguous, and my brain had trouble parsing it on first read: Image is what [you need] [to make people think] you
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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                              This one strikes me as structurally ambiguous, and my brain had trouble parsing it on first read:

                              Image is what [you need] [to make people think] you (??actually/really) are what you'd like to be.

                              Image is what you [need to make] [people think] you (??actually/really) are what you'd like to be.

                              The syntax is a tough nut when trying to translate that sentence. I wasn't fully pleased with my own attempt.

                              Jamie

                              On Aug 30, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Melvyn wrote:

                              > "Image is what you need to make people think you (??actually/really) are what you'd like to be"?



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Melvyn
                              But could any other viable meaning be read into it? Surely not. And the initial brief moment of disorientation is surely all part of the charm, as it is
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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                                But could any other viable meaning be read into it? Surely not.

                                And the initial brief moment of disorientation is surely all part of the charm, as it is followed by a pleasing "aha" moment. :-)

                                These may parse more smoothly, though I feel something is lost in the clarity:

                                Image is what you need in order to make people think you (??actually/really) are what you'd like to be.

                                Image is what you need if you want to make people think you (??actually/really) are what you'd like to be.

                                In a free rendition for advertising purposes I might possibly avoid all this "being" stuff, e.g. "if you want people to see you as you'd like to see yourself then image is what you need..."


                                BR

                                M.
                                We are too late for the gods and too early for Being.
                                Martin Heidegger

                                --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > This one strikes me as structurally ambiguous, and my brain had trouble parsing it on first read:
                                >
                                > Image is what [you need] [to make people think] you (??actually/really) are what you'd like to be.
                                >
                                > Image is what you [need to make] [people think] you (??actually/really) are what you'd like to be.
                                >
                                > The syntax is a tough nut when trying to translate that sentence. I wasn't fully pleased with my own attempt.
                                >
                                > Jamie
                                >
                                > On Aug 30, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Melvyn wrote:
                                >
                                > > "Image is what you need to make people think you (??actually/really) are what you'd like to be"?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • James Kirchner
                                Much better. :-) ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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                                  Much better. :-)

                                  On Aug 30, 2010, at 6:53 PM, Melvyn wrote:

                                  > But could any other viable meaning be read into it? Surely not.
                                  >
                                  > And the initial brief moment of disorientation is surely all part of the charm, as it is followed by a pleasing "aha" moment. :-)
                                  >
                                  > These may parse more smoothly, though I feel something is lost in the clarity:
                                  >
                                  > Image is what you need in order to make people think you (??actually/really) are what you'd like to be.
                                  >
                                  > Image is what you need if you want to make people think you (??actually/really) are what you'd like to be.
                                  >
                                  > In a free rendition for advertising purposes I might possibly avoid all this "being" stuff, e.g. "if you want people to see you as you'd like to see yourself then image is what you need..."
                                  >
                                  > BR
                                  >
                                  > M.
                                  > We are too late for the gods and too early for Being.
                                  > Martin Heidegger
                                  >
                                  > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > This one strikes me as structurally ambiguous, and my brain had trouble parsing it on first read:
                                  > >
                                  > > Image is what [you need] [to make people think] you (??actually/really) are what you'd like to be.
                                  > >
                                  > > Image is what you [need to make] [people think] you (??actually/really) are what you'd like to be.
                                  > >
                                  > > The syntax is a tough nut when trying to translate that sentence. I wasn't fully pleased with my own attempt.
                                  > >
                                  > > Jamie
                                  > >
                                  > > On Aug 30, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Melvyn wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > "Image is what you need to make people think you (??actually/really) are what you'd like to be"?
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Matej Klimes
                                  Thank you both for discussing this further, Melvyn and Jamie, The translation was long turned in by the time this arrived... it wasn t a crucial part or
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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                                    Thank you both for discussing this further, Melvyn and Jamie,

                                    The translation was long turned in by the time this arrived... it
                                    wasn't a crucial part or anything like that, I just needed to make it
                                    comprehensible...

                                    I suspect I used 'one' because the Czech version (and German) had co
                                    clovek/mansch potrebuje.... I know this use of one is a bit
                                    'stiff-upper-lippy' - and BR ENG and probably annoying to US ENG
                                    speakers as such, but I thought it would be OK in an intellectual
                                    quote... my only problem was that with so many one's, the sentence
                                    became over-complicated..

                                    (I also initially thought that the person in question lived in 1930's -
                                    being a cabaret artist, so a bit of old-fashioned language wouldn't go
                                    amiss [I did wonder where the word image came from]... but then I found
                                    out he's a contemporary, apparently you can still be a cabaret artist
                                    !and a journalist at the same time! in Germany these days... sounds
                                    very liberating)

                                    Thanks again

                                    M


                                    ------ Original Message ------
                                    From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                                    To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: 31.8.2010 1:04:54
                                    Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Complicated ex-German quote
                                    >Much better. :-)
                                    >
                                    >On Aug 30, 2010, at 6:53 PM, Melvyn wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >>
                                    >>But could any other viable meaning be read into it? Surely not.
                                    >>
                                    >>And the initial brief moment of disorientation is surely all part of the charm, as it is followed by a pleasing "aha" moment. :-)
                                    >>
                                    >>These may parse more smoothly, though I feel something is lost in the clarity:
                                    >>
                                    >>Image is what you need in order to make people think you (??actually/really) are what you'd like to be.
                                    >>
                                    >>Image is what you need if you want to make people think you (??actually/really) are what you'd like to be.
                                    >>
                                    >>In a free rendition for advertising purposes I might possibly avoid all this "being" stuff, e.g. "if you want people to see you as you'd like to see yourself then image is what you need..."
                                    >>
                                    >>BR
                                    >>
                                    >>M.
                                    >>We are too late for the gods and too early for Being.
                                    >>Martin Heidegger
                                    >>
                                    >>--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:
                                    >>>
                                    >>> This one strikes me as structurally ambiguous, and my brain had trouble parsing it on first read:
                                    >>>
                                    >>> Image is what [you need] [to make people think] you (??actually/really) are what you'd like to be.
                                    >>>
                                    >>> Image is what you [need to make] [people think] you (??actually/really) are what you'd like to be.
                                    >>>
                                    >>> The syntax is a tough nut when trying to translate that sentence. I wasn't fully pleased with my own attempt.
                                    >>>
                                    >>> Jamie
                                    >>>
                                    >>> On Aug 30, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Melvyn wrote:
                                    >>>
                                    >>> > "Image is what you need to make people think you (??actually/really) are what you'd like to be"?
                                    >>>
                                    >>>
                                    >>>
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                                  • James Kirchner
                                    Actually, I think the Americans use the pronoun one more than you think. The only problem is -- and I think this happens to the British also -- when you get
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 30, 2010
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                                      Actually, I think the Americans use the pronoun "one" more than you think.

                                      The only problem is -- and I think this happens to the British also -- when you get a string of clauses and they all have the pronoun "one" in them, the listener gets confused, even though the "ones" all have the same referent.

                                      This is why you'll find native speakers slipping and saying things like:

                                      "If one goes to city hall, one needs to empty one's pockets for the guards, and they will keep your cellphone until you leave."

                                      or...

                                      "If one goes to city hall, one needs to empty one's pockets for the guards, and they will keep his cellphone until he leaves."

                                      Jamie

                                      On Aug 31, 2010, at 2:40 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:

                                      > I suspect I used 'one' because the Czech version (and German) had co
                                      > clovek/mansch potrebuje.... I know this use of one is a bit
                                      > 'stiff-upper-lippy' - and BR ENG and probably annoying to US ENG
                                      > speakers as such, but I thought it would be OK in an intellectual
                                      > quote... my only problem was that with so many one's, the sentence
                                      > became over-complicated..



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Melvyn
                                      ... In British English the standard possessive form of one is one s , and one refers back to one with another one . Anything else sounds sloppy at best
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Aug 31, 2010
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                                        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > The only problem is -- and I think this happens to the British also -- when you get a string of clauses and they all have the pronoun "one" in them, the listener gets confused, even though the "ones" all have the same referent.

                                        In British English the standard possessive form of "one" is "one's", and one refers back to "one" with another "one". Anything else sounds sloppy at best IMHO. But the situation is clearly different in American English, as I have read in several reference works (e.g. Fowler's). I quote from Practical English Usage by Michael Swan:

                                        "When one is used in American English, he, him and his are generally used later in the sentence to refer back to one. This is not normal in British English.

                                        AmEng:
                                        One cannot succeed at this unless he tries hard.*
                                        (BrEng...unless one tries hard).

                                        AmEng
                                        One should always be polite to his bank manager.
                                        (BrEng...to one's bank manager)"


                                        (*Perhaps some folks over there use she, s/he, she or he etc in these situations? Or just plain one?)

                                        BR

                                        M.
                                      • James Kirchner
                                        Melvyn, you re playing one of those tricks the British often use on websites and in other material that purport to compare British to American English. I ve
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Aug 31, 2010
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                                          Melvyn, you're playing one of those tricks the British often use on websites and in other material that purport to compare British to "American" English. I've just recently berated the owner of an English instruction website for doing the same thing.

                                          The trick works like this:

                                          1. Take two sentences, one in correct grammar and one in bad grammar.
                                          2. Mark the sentence in good grammar "British" English and the one in bad grammar "American" English.
                                          3. Make a list of such pairs.
                                          4. Use the list to make a bogus pedagogical point.

                                          The possessive form of "one" in American English is "one's", just as it is in British English. The examples you have marked as "American" English would be considered incorrect in the US also, regardless of whether you can find Americans who make those mistakes.

                                          What you have done is equivalent to me making a list like this one:

                                          AmEng
                                          "He doesn't like it."
                                          BrEng
                                          "He don't like it."

                                          AmEng
                                          "Watch your head!"
                                          BrEng
                                          "Watch your loaf o' bread!"

                                          Jamie

                                          On Aug 31, 2010, at 6:48 AM, Melvyn wrote:

                                          > In British English the standard possessive form of "one" is "one's", and one refers back to "one" with another "one". Anything else sounds sloppy at best IMHO. But the situation is clearly different in American English, as I have read in several reference works (e.g. Fowler's). I quote from Practical English Usage by Michael Swan:
                                          >
                                          > "When one is used in American English, he, him and his are generally used later in the sentence to refer back to one. This is not normal in British English.
                                          >
                                          > AmEng:
                                          > One cannot succeed at this unless he tries hard.*
                                          > (BrEng...unless one tries hard).
                                          >
                                          > AmEng
                                          > One should always be polite to his bank manager.
                                          > (BrEng...to one's bank manager)"
                                          >
                                          > (*Perhaps some folks over there use she, s/he, she or he etc in these situations? Or just plain one?)



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Melvyn
                                          ... As I wrote, the sentences quoted are taken from Practical English Usage( Prounouns referring back: American English p. 394 International Student s
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Aug 31, 2010
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                                            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Melvyn, you're playing one of those tricks the British often use on websites and in other material that purport to compare British to "American" English. I've just recently berated the owner of an English instruction website for doing the same thing.

                                            As I wrote, the sentences quoted are taken from Practical English Usage("Prounouns referring back: American English" p. 394 International Student's Edition) so it is Michael Swan whom you have to berate, if anybody.

                                            Also note I did ask if other forms are used. A particularly cunning trick:

                                            > > (*Perhaps some folks over there use she, s/he, she or he etc in these situations? Or just plain one?)

                                            I'm particularly interested in "practical usage" as the title goes, but by all means...

                                            >
                                            > The possessive form of "one" in American English is "one's", just as it is in British English. The examples you have marked as "American" English would be considered incorrect in the US also,

                                            ...let's hear if other speakers of ""American"" English consider these sentences acceptable or not (would you be unhappy if you found these in a newspaper or if your son spoke this way? :-) Register will surely play a role here):

                                            > > One cannot succeed at this unless he tries hard.

                                            > > One should always be polite to his bank manager.


                                            BR

                                            M.
                                          • James Kirchner
                                            ... He s wrong. He might be the source of some of the weird British assertions I see that sentences like, He did it real quick, are standard, acceptable
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Aug 31, 2010
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                                              On Aug 31, 2010, at 8:39 AM, Melvyn wrote:

                                              > As I wrote, the sentences quoted are taken from Practical English Usage("Prounouns referring back: American English" p. 394 International Student's Edition) so it is Michael Swan whom you have to berate, if anybody.

                                              He's wrong.

                                              He might be the source of some of the weird British assertions I see that sentences like, "He did it real quick," are standard, acceptable American English, which they're not.

                                              The issue that hasn't been dealt with, though, is my claim that if a sentence will contain four or five instances of the pronoun "one", a native speaker would reformulate it to avoid that pronoun, even if he knows how to use "one" properly.

                                              I think that's true of the British as well as the Americans, because I don't see British materials with sentences like, "If one wishes to withdraw money from one's bank account, one must insert one's card and wait until one sees the language prompt," or, "Every week one places one's recyclable materials in front of one's house on one's designated garbage day."

                                              Jamie



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Melvyn
                                              ... considered incorrect in the US also, regardless of whether you can find Americans who make those mistakes. The following is from an American site (Capital
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Sep 3, 2010
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                                                --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:

                                                >The examples you have marked as "American" English would be
                                                considered incorrect in the US also, regardless of whether you can find Americans who make those mistakes.

                                                The following is from an American site (Capital Community College Foundation, Hartford CT) and I presume this is the "practical usage" situation that Michael Swan wants to describe:

                                                https://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/one.htm
                                                One's Reflexive and Possessive Forms

                                                In the United States, the possessive and reflexive forms of one — one's and oneself — are often replaced by other pronoun forms. In British English, they are commonplace:

                                                In the U.S. one's is apt to be replaced by a third-person "his" or (more informally) a second-person "your":

                                                Nothing here about "his" being considered a mistake and I can't find any American source to explicitly say that it is, apart from James Thurber. :-) **, but I am sure you (or a compatriot) will point me in the right direction. After talking with Californian friends here my initial impression is increasingly being confirmed that this is very much a matter of register - "his" or forms like "his and her" seem to be traditionally more acceptable in this context in the US than in Those Islands in all but the most formal styles (?).

                                                ** "The indefinite "one" is another source of trouble and is frequently the cause of disagreeable scenes. Such a sentence as "One loves one's friends" is considered by some persons to be stilted and over-formalized, and such persons insist that "One loves his friends" is permissible..."

                                                James Thurber

                                                Ladies' and Gentlemen's Guide to Modern English Usage

                                                "Ladies' and Gentlemen's Guide To Modern English Usage", a series of fractured essays where Thurber twists the rules of grammar in highly inappropriate ways.
                                                http://www.tcj.com/history/thoughts-on-thurber-the-owl-in-the-attic/


                                                >"If one wishes to withdraw money from
                                                one's bank account, one must insert one's card and wait until one sees the language prompt,"

                                                Ah now this reminds me of the top deck of the bus from Brixton in South London after pub-closing time. Amidst the general uproar, hurled colourful epithets and drunken women yelling "eh you, me mate fancies yah" ("no I don't") there was sometimes this weird character sitting behind me and declaiming in Prince Charles's strained, cerebral tones: "one must get home before midnight or one turns into a pumpkin". This is the way we pose in a "stilted and over-formalized" manner, which some of us do quite a lot, and this guy sounded so convincingly like Prince Charles that I had to turn round to check just in case...

                                                Anyway, I'd say `one' is rarely if ever used even singly in public instructions. Excessive repetition of any personal pronoun would often be avoided in instructions by use of the imperative.

                                                BR

                                                M.
                                              • Liz Spacilova
                                                Hi, I tried weighing in earlier but for some reason, my entry did not get posted :( ... try try again. Hmmm. I agree with Jamie - my instinct is to correct
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Sep 3, 2010
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                                                  Hi,

                                                  I tried weighing in earlier but for some reason, my entry did not get posted :( ... try try again.

                                                  Hmmm. I agree with Jamie - my instinct is to correct "One should trust his banker" to one/one's or you/your, unless "his" is Fred's and Fred was the guy just mentioned earlier in the paragraph. Same for one-your (unless, Melvyn, one should trust your (Melvyn's) banker). One-his leads to ambiguity (and note that "his/her" is often rendered as gender-neutral "their"). Here's a "real live" example from the Internet:

                                                  "It also goes to show that no doctor knows your body better than you do and that one should trust their instincts."

                                                  One should trust their instincts - who is "their" - the doctor's (gender neutral possessive)?

                                                  Another "real" example -

                                                  "It is not clear who "Mark the Founder" is, or why one should trust his view on this issue."

                                                  Now it really is clear who "his" is - it's Mark.

                                                  That said, one-his and especially one-their (excluding "no one"-their) is prevalent on the web. The sentences that combine one-his own or one-their own are less ambiguous, but they still seem awkward - like the author has realised mid-sentence that "one's" sounds very stilted and decided to change tenses. At the very least one-his/their (own) is poor style, and the trend is to avoid "one" altogether for the same reasons you describe below.

                                                  Hopefully this will actually post

                                                  - Liz
                                                  (still relatively American)

                                                  --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Melvyn" <zehrovak@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > >The examples you have marked as "American" English would be
                                                  > considered incorrect in the US also, regardless of whether you can find Americans who make those mistakes.
                                                  >
                                                  > The following is from an American site (Capital Community College Foundation, Hartford CT) and I presume this is the "practical usage" situation that Michael Swan wants to describe:
                                                  >
                                                  > https://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/one.htm
                                                  > One's Reflexive and Possessive Forms
                                                  >
                                                  > In the United States, the possessive and reflexive forms of one — one's and oneself — are often replaced by other pronoun forms. In British English, they are commonplace:
                                                  >
                                                  > In the U.S. one's is apt to be replaced by a third-person "his" or (more informally) a second-person "your":
                                                  >
                                                  > Nothing here about "his" being considered a mistake and I can't find any American source to explicitly say that it is, apart from James Thurber. :-) **, but I am sure you (or a compatriot) will point me in the right direction. After talking with Californian friends here my initial impression is increasingly being confirmed that this is very much a matter of register - "his" or forms like "his and her" seem to be traditionally more acceptable in this context in the US than in Those Islands in all but the most formal styles (?).
                                                  >
                                                  > ** "The indefinite "one" is another source of trouble and is frequently the cause of disagreeable scenes. Such a sentence as "One loves one's friends" is considered by some persons to be stilted and over-formalized, and such persons insist that "One loves his friends" is permissible..."
                                                  >
                                                  > James Thurber
                                                  >
                                                  > Ladies' and Gentlemen's Guide to Modern English Usage
                                                  >
                                                  > "Ladies' and Gentlemen's Guide To Modern English Usage", a series of fractured essays where Thurber twists the rules of grammar in highly inappropriate ways.
                                                  > http://www.tcj.com/history/thoughts-on-thurber-the-owl-in-the-attic/
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > >"If one wishes to withdraw money from
                                                  > one's bank account, one must insert one's card and wait until one sees the language prompt,"
                                                  >
                                                  > Ah now this reminds me of the top deck of the bus from Brixton in South London after pub-closing time. Amidst the general uproar, hurled colourful epithets and drunken women yelling "eh you, me mate fancies yah" ("no I don't") there was sometimes this weird character sitting behind me and declaiming in Prince Charles's strained, cerebral tones: "one must get home before midnight or one turns into a pumpkin". This is the way we pose in a "stilted and over-formalized" manner, which some of us do quite a lot, and this guy sounded so convincingly like Prince Charles that I had to turn round to check just in case...
                                                  >
                                                  > Anyway, I'd say `one' is rarely if ever used even singly in public instructions. Excessive repetition of any personal pronoun would often be avoided in instructions by use of the imperative.
                                                  >
                                                  > BR
                                                  >
                                                  > M.
                                                  >
                                                • Jan Culka
                                                  Yes, it did this time, Honza [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Sep 3, 2010
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                                                    Yes, it did this time,
                                                    Honza

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Melvyn
                                                    Hello Liz, I would not fault your reasoning at all. Indeed like many Brits I would employ your arguments to justify my own use of one s even in relatively
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Sep 6, 2010
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                                                      Hello Liz,

                                                      I would not fault your reasoning at all. Indeed like many Brits I would employ your arguments to justify my own use of "one's" even in relatively informal situations where I'm only saying "one" with eyebrows raised because I can't be bothered with the rigmarole of "you meaning one" or "oh I didn't mean you _you_" etc. That and the argument that "posing" in small doses is enjoyable and expands our expressive repertoire, so we need not be half-assed about it. We "pose" like this all the time in practice IMHO, e.g. using Shakespearean language, nonchalantly dropping French phrases, sprouting legalese, affecting rustic dialects, coarse mannerisms etc. etc. I would often see spoken use of "one" from that standpoint.

                                                      Still, logic is not always decisive in the way even educated people habitually communicate (e.g. the double negative was commonly used in days gone by for emphatic effect in English [not to mention other living languages], glaring pleonasms are used deliberately for expressive effect etc, "they" as a common gender pronoun can raise all kinds of logical problems, English is not too hot on grammatical concord [number agreement] etc etc), so when I find sources on both sides of the pond pointing out this potential his/one's difference it makes me curious about the situation on the ground over there. As you indicate, "one/one's" might well be considered inappropriate and affected in some contexts, e.g. by folks who do not subscribe to my "posing? I'm all in favour" argument. :-) This might go some way to explaining the prevalence of the "one/his etc" forms that you refer to. So you've pretty much told me what I wanted to know. Many thanks. :-)

                                                      BR

                                                      M.

                                                      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Liz Spacilova" <spacils@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Hi,
                                                      >
                                                      > I tried weighing in earlier but for some reason, my entry did not get posted :( ... try try again.
                                                      >
                                                      > Hmmm. I agree with Jamie - my instinct is to correct "One should trust his banker" to one/one's or you/your, unless "his" is Fred's and Fred was the guy just mentioned earlier in the paragraph. Same for one-your (unless, Melvyn, one should trust your (Melvyn's) banker). One-his leads to ambiguity (and note that "his/her" is often rendered as gender-neutral "their"). Here's a "real live" example from the Internet:
                                                      >
                                                      > "It also goes to show that no doctor knows your body better than you do and that one should trust their instincts."
                                                      >
                                                      > One should trust their instincts - who is "their" - the doctor's (gender neutral possessive)?
                                                      >
                                                      > Another "real" example -
                                                      >
                                                      > "It is not clear who "Mark the Founder" is, or why one should trust his view on this issue."
                                                      >
                                                      > Now it really is clear who "his" is - it's Mark.
                                                      >
                                                      > That said, one-his and especially one-their (excluding "no one"-their) is prevalent on the web. The sentences that combine one-his own or one-their own are less ambiguous, but they still seem awkward - like the author has realised mid-sentence that "one's" sounds very stilted and decided to change tenses. At the very least one-his/their (own) is poor style, and the trend is to avoid "one" altogether for the same reasons you describe below.
                                                      >
                                                      > Hopefully this will actually post
                                                      >
                                                      > - Liz
                                                      > (still relatively American)
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