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Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's

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  • James Kirchner
    Only for horses. Never for dogs and cats. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
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      Only for horses. Never for dogs and cats.

      On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:47 AM, Pilucha, Jiri wrote:

      >
      > Myslim, ze to je thoroughbred
      > Jirka
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matej Klimes
      > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:42 PM
      > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
      >
      > Thanks again Melvyn,
      >
      > It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:
      >
      > IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:
      >
      > The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD that be closer to your heart than saying:
      > The potential of Hill's Science new products is...
      >
      > To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a rule without thinking..
      >
      > On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?
      >
      > Thanks
      >
      > Matej
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Melvyn
      > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
      > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
      >
      > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
      > >
      > > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
      > > grammatically possible?
      >
      > I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the sort of thing you are asking about.
      >
      > As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it out IMHO.
      >
      > Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.
      >
      > Ugh, groan, contrived.
      >
      > M.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Pilucha, Jiri
      Yes, that s why I immediately recalled the email but apparently the recall failed. Thanks for the comment Jiri ... From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
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        Yes, that's why I immediately recalled the email but apparently the recall failed. Thanks for the comment
        Jiri

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Kirchner
        Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:39 PM
        To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's

        Only for horses. Never for dogs and cats.

        On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:47 AM, Pilucha, Jiri wrote:

        >
        > Myslim, ze to je thoroughbred
        > Jirka
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matej Klimes
        > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:42 PM
        > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
        >
        > Thanks again Melvyn,
        >
        > It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:
        >
        > IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:
        >
        > The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD that be closer to your heart than saying:
        > The potential of Hill's Science new products is...
        >
        > To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a rule without thinking..
        >
        > On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?
        >
        > Thanks
        >
        > Matej
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Melvyn
        > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
        > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
        >
        > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
        > >
        > > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
        > > grammatically possible?
        >
        > I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the sort of thing you are asking about.
        >
        > As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it out IMHO.
        >
        > Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.
        >
        > Ugh, groan, contrived.
        >
        > M.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

        Translators' tricks of the trade:
        http://czeng.wetpaint.com/




        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • Charlie Stanford
        I have never heard pedigreed being used with a d on the end.... perhaps that is an American thing. We (Brits) would use pedigree rather than pure-bred. ...
        Message 3 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          I have never heard pedigreed being used with a d on the end.... perhaps that
          is an American thing. We (Brits) would use pedigree rather than pure-bred.

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
          To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:03 PM
          Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's


          > Okay, the first sentence, with "Hill's Science's" would be grammatically
          > correct, and the second one wouldn't be. However, in that case the
          > advertising agency would do some contortion to avoid adding the second 's,
          > such as saying, "The potential of the new products from Hill's Science
          > is..." or completely overhauling the sentence.
          >
          > "Cistokrevny" is definitely "pure-bred". "Pure-breed" (as an adjective)
          > is definitely wrong.
          >
          > According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, you can use the adjectives
          > "pedigreed" (listed first) or "pedigree", but this gets into a mess as to
          > whether there is a piece of paper (i.e., a pedigree) documenting that the
          > animal is pure-bred. My Oxford Concise Dictionary (UK) does not have
          > "pedigree" as an adjective, but only "pedigreed", which fits my sense of
          > the word better than the Webster listing. There's a tendency in the US
          > for people to forget the past-tense suffix on adjectives, resulting in
          > signs in stores that say "CAN POP" or "CAN VEGETABLES", usually in places
          > that would also have a clothing section for "MENS".
          >
          > Jamie
          >
          > On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
          >
          >> Thanks again Melvyn,
          >>
          >> It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to
          >> ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:
          >>
          >> IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves
          >> Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a
          >> sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:
          >>
          >> The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD
          >> that be closer to your heart than saying:
          >> The potential of Hill's Science new products is...
          >>
          >> To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a
          >> rule without thinking..
          >>
          >> On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for
          >> "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various
          >> combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech
          >> clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is
          >> she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?
          >>
          >> Thanks
          >>
          >> Matej
          >>
          >> ----- Original Message -----
          >> From: Melvyn
          >> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
          >> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
          >> Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
          >>
          >> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
          >> >
          >> > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
          >> >
          >> > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
          >> > grammatically possible?
          >>
          >> I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or
          >> "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books
          >> suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark
          >> St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the
          >> sort of thing you are asking about.
          >>
          >> As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the
          >> second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you
          >> any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it
          >> out IMHO.
          >>
          >> Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is
          >> not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have
          >> three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.
          >>
          >> Ugh, groan, contrived.
          >>
          >> M.
          >>
          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Translators' tricks of the trade:
          > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          --
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        • James Kirchner
          Look in your Oxford dictionary.
          Message 4 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Look in your Oxford dictionary.

            On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Charlie Stanford wrote:

            > I have never heard pedigreed being used with a d on the end.... perhaps that
            > is an American thing. We (Brits) would use pedigree rather than pure-bred.
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
            > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:03 PM
            > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
            >
            >
            >> Okay, the first sentence, with "Hill's Science's" would be grammatically
            >> correct, and the second one wouldn't be. However, in that case the
            >> advertising agency would do some contortion to avoid adding the second 's,
            >> such as saying, "The potential of the new products from Hill's Science
            >> is..." or completely overhauling the sentence.
            >>
            >> "Cistokrevny" is definitely "pure-bred". "Pure-breed" (as an adjective)
            >> is definitely wrong.
            >>
            >> According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, you can use the adjectives
            >> "pedigreed" (listed first) or "pedigree", but this gets into a mess as to
            >> whether there is a piece of paper (i.e., a pedigree) documenting that the
            >> animal is pure-bred. My Oxford Concise Dictionary (UK) does not have
            >> "pedigree" as an adjective, but only "pedigreed", which fits my sense of
            >> the word better than the Webster listing. There's a tendency in the US
            >> for people to forget the past-tense suffix on adjectives, resulting in
            >> signs in stores that say "CAN POP" or "CAN VEGETABLES", usually in places
            >> that would also have a clothing section for "MENS".
            >>
            >> Jamie
            >>
            >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
            >>
            >>> Thanks again Melvyn,
            >>>
            >>> It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to
            >>> ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:
            >>>
            >>> IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves
            >>> Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a
            >>> sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:
            >>>
            >>> The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD
            >>> that be closer to your heart than saying:
            >>> The potential of Hill's Science new products is...
            >>>
            >>> To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a
            >>> rule without thinking..
            >>>
            >>> On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for
            >>> "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various
            >>> combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech
            >>> clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is
            >>> she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?
            >>>
            >>> Thanks
            >>>
            >>> Matej
            >>>
            >>> ----- Original Message -----
            >>> From: Melvyn
            >>> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
            >>> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
            >>> Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
            >>>
            >>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
            >>>>
            >>>> Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
            >>>>
            >>>> Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
            >>>> grammatically possible?
            >>>
            >>> I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or
            >>> "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books
            >>> suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark
            >>> St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the
            >>> sort of thing you are asking about.
            >>>
            >>> As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the
            >>> second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you
            >>> any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it
            >>> out IMHO.
            >>>
            >>> Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is
            >>> not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have
            >>> three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.
            >>>
            >>> Ugh, groan, contrived.
            >>>
            >>> M.
            >>>
            >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >>>
            >>>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> ------------------------------------
            >>
            >> Translators' tricks of the trade:
            >> http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            > --
            > Jsem chránin bezplatným SPAMfighter pro soukromé u3ivatele.
            > A3 doposud mi u1etoil poíjmu 1596 spam-emailu.
            > Platící u3ivatelé tuto zprávu ve svých e-mailech nedostavají.
            > Stáhnite si zadarmo SPAMfighter zde: www.spamfighter.com/lcs
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Translators' tricks of the trade:
            > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
          • Josef Hlavac
            This is the Internet... once you let something out, there s no way to get it back in :) Josef
            Message 5 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
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              This is the Internet... once you let something out, there's no way to
              get it back in :)

              Josef

              Pilucha, Jiri wrote:
              > Yes, that's why I immediately recalled the email but apparently the recall failed. Thanks for the comment
              > Jiri
              >
            • Charlie Stanford
              Maybe it says it in the Oxford dictionary but I have still never heard pedigree being used with a d on the end for any breed of animal. I am an English
              Message 6 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Maybe it says it in the Oxford dictionary but I have still never heard pedigree being used with a d on the end for any breed of animal. I am an English native-speaker from a farming background and am not that green around the ears but maybe I have not been listening carefully enough.... Perhaps people say it but not anyone I have ever come across.
                Incidentally I think you will find that "thoroughbred" horses are not a pure breed of a certain type of horse but a specific breed of (originally crossbred)racehorse. So you can have a "pure Arab stallion" but a "Thoroughbred Arab stallion" is actually a cross between a Thoroughbred and an Arab.


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: James Kirchner
                To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 7:32 PM
                Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's



                Look in your Oxford dictionary.

                On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Charlie Stanford wrote:

                > I have never heard pedigreed being used with a d on the end.... perhaps that
                > is an American thing. We (Brits) would use pedigree rather than pure-bred.
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:03 PM
                > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                >
                >
                >> Okay, the first sentence, with "Hill's Science's" would be grammatically
                >> correct, and the second one wouldn't be. However, in that case the
                >> advertising agency would do some contortion to avoid adding the second 's,
                >> such as saying, "The potential of the new products from Hill's Science
                >> is..." or completely overhauling the sentence.
                >>
                >> "Cistokrevny" is definitely "pure-bred". "Pure-breed" (as an adjective)
                >> is definitely wrong.
                >>
                >> According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, you can use the adjectives
                >> "pedigreed" (listed first) or "pedigree", but this gets into a mess as to
                >> whether there is a piece of paper (i.e., a pedigree) documenting that the
                >> animal is pure-bred. My Oxford Concise Dictionary (UK) does not have
                >> "pedigree" as an adjective, but only "pedigreed", which fits my sense of
                >> the word better than the Webster listing. There's a tendency in the US
                >> for people to forget the past-tense suffix on adjectives, resulting in
                >> signs in stores that say "CAN POP" or "CAN VEGETABLES", usually in places
                >> that would also have a clothing section for "MENS".
                >>
                >> Jamie
                >>
                >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                >>
                >>> Thanks again Melvyn,
                >>>
                >>> It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to
                >>> ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:
                >>>
                >>> IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves
                >>> Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a
                >>> sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:
                >>>
                >>> The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD
                >>> that be closer to your heart than saying:
                >>> The potential of Hill's Science new products is...
                >>>
                >>> To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a
                >>> rule without thinking..
                >>>
                >>> On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for
                >>> "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various
                >>> combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech
                >>> clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is
                >>> she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?
                >>>
                >>> Thanks
                >>>
                >>> Matej
                >>>
                >>> ----- Original Message -----
                >>> From: Melvyn
                >>> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                >>> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
                >>> Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                >>>
                >>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
                >>>>
                >>>> Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                >>>>
                >>>> Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                >>>> grammatically possible?
                >>>
                >>> I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or
                >>> "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books
                >>> suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark
                >>> St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the
                >>> sort of thing you are asking about.
                >>>
                >>> As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the
                >>> second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you
                >>> any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it
                >>> out IMHO.
                >>>
                >>> Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is
                >>> not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have
                >>> three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.
                >>>
                >>> Ugh, groan, contrived.
                >>>
                >>> M.
                >>>
                >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>>
                >>>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> ------------------------------------
                >>
                >> Translators' tricks of the trade:
                >> http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                > --
                > Jsem chránin bezplatným SPAMfighter pro soukromé u3ivatele.
                > A3 doposud mi u1etoil poíjmu 1596 spam-emailu.
                > Platící u3ivatelé tuto zprávu ve svých e-mailech nedostavají.
                > Stáhnite si zadarmo SPAMfighter zde: www.spamfighter.com/lcs
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Translators' tricks of the trade:
                > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >





                --
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                Až doposud mě ušetřil příjmu 1596 spam-emailů.
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Sabina Králová
                I am not a native speaker but I breed dogs, ride horses etc. Charlie is right. I have always seen pedigree dogs and never pedigreed . Sabina ... From:
                Message 7 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  I am not a native speaker but I breed dogs, ride horses etc. Charlie is right. I have always seen "pedigree dogs" and never "pedigreed".
                  Sabina
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Charlie Stanford
                  Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 8:11 PM
                  To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [SPAM] Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's



                  Maybe it says it in the Oxford dictionary but I have still never heard pedigree being used with a d on the end for any breed of animal. I am an English native-speaker from a farming background and am not that green around the ears but maybe I have not been listening carefully enough.... Perhaps people say it but not anyone I have ever come across.
                  Incidentally I think you will find that "thoroughbred" horses are not a pure breed of a certain type of horse but a specific breed of (originally crossbred)racehorse. So you can have a "pure Arab stallion" but a "Thoroughbred Arab stallion" is actually a cross between a Thoroughbred and an Arab.


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: James Kirchner
                  To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 7:32 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's

                  Look in your Oxford dictionary.

                  On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Charlie Stanford wrote:

                  > I have never heard pedigreed being used with a d on the end.... perhaps that
                  > is an American thing. We (Brits) would use pedigree rather than pure-bred.
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                  > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:03 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                  >
                  >
                  >> Okay, the first sentence, with "Hill's Science's" would be grammatically
                  >> correct, and the second one wouldn't be. However, in that case the
                  >> advertising agency would do some contortion to avoid adding the second 's,
                  >> such as saying, "The potential of the new products from Hill's Science
                  >> is..." or completely overhauling the sentence.
                  >>
                  >> "Cistokrevny" is definitely "pure-bred". "Pure-breed" (as an adjective)
                  >> is definitely wrong.
                  >>
                  >> According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, you can use the adjectives
                  >> "pedigreed" (listed first) or "pedigree", but this gets into a mess as to
                  >> whether there is a piece of paper (i.e., a pedigree) documenting that the
                  >> animal is pure-bred. My Oxford Concise Dictionary (UK) does not have
                  >> "pedigree" as an adjective, but only "pedigreed", which fits my sense of
                  >> the word better than the Webster listing. There's a tendency in the US
                  >> for people to forget the past-tense suffix on adjectives, resulting in
                  >> signs in stores that say "CAN POP" or "CAN VEGETABLES", usually in places
                  >> that would also have a clothing section for "MENS".
                  >>
                  >> Jamie
                  >>
                  >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                  >>
                  >>> Thanks again Melvyn,
                  >>>
                  >>> It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to
                  >>> ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:
                  >>>
                  >>> IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves
                  >>> Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a
                  >>> sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:
                  >>>
                  >>> The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD
                  >>> that be closer to your heart than saying:
                  >>> The potential of Hill's Science new products is...
                  >>>
                  >>> To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a
                  >>> rule without thinking..
                  >>>
                  >>> On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for
                  >>> "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various
                  >>> combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech
                  >>> clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is
                  >>> she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?
                  >>>
                  >>> Thanks
                  >>>
                  >>> Matej
                  >>>
                  >>> ----- Original Message -----
                  >>> From: Melvyn
                  >>> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                  >>> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
                  >>> Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                  >>>
                  >>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
                  >>>>
                  >>>> Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                  >>>>
                  >>>> Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                  >>>> grammatically possible?
                  >>>
                  >>> I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or
                  >>> "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books
                  >>> suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark
                  >>> St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the
                  >>> sort of thing you are asking about.
                  >>>
                  >>> As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the
                  >>> second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you
                  >>> any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it
                  >>> out IMHO.
                  >>>
                  >>> Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is
                  >>> not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have
                  >>> three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.
                  >>>
                  >>> Ugh, groan, contrived.
                  >>>
                  >>> M.
                  >>>
                  >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> ------------------------------------
                  >>
                  >> Translators' tricks of the trade:
                  >> http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Jsem chránin bezplatným SPAMfighter pro soukromé u3ivatele.
                  > A3 doposud mi u1etoil poíjmu 1596 spam-emailu.
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                  > Stáhnite si zadarmo SPAMfighter zde: www.spamfighter.com/lcs
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Translators' tricks of the trade:
                  > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  --
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                  Až doposud mě ušetřil příjmu 1596 spam-emailů.
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Matej Klimes
                  Sorry for having set off another heated debate... just wanted to check.. I think the (European) headquarters which are in Czecho now are having their effect on
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Sorry for having set off another heated debate... just wanted to check..

                    I think the (European) headquarters which are in Czecho now are having their effect on the entire corporation, in all I've seen they're calling themselves "Hill's Science" (complete with the inevitable "company" tacked onto the end... now there's a brand name set in stone :)

                    My reasoning was that if the brand name was something simple (such as Nike), nobody (not even a copywriter) would have a problem saying "Nike's new supersonic trainers.."

                    Anyway, there's far more complicated stuff in that project, thanks for the pedigree explanation too, pure bred seemed OK and had enough hits, but I had a suspicion it might not be what dog-breeding people use..

                    M




                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: James Kirchner
                    To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:42 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's



                    When you work in an English-speaking advertising agency, those brand names ARE set in stone, and you do everything possible not to disturb them in form or appearance. Grammatical rules, for example, would dictate that the plural of Chevy be "Chevies", but that is forbidden in GM advertising materials, and what is written is actually "Chevys", against standard English grammatical rules.

                    Besides the fact that "Hill's Science's cat food" sounds like Czenglish (regardless of what other double sequences of possessives you find in English), it should not be changed, mainly because of this general preference for trademark integrity.

                    You see evidence of this American preference in Czech in bad collocations like "se Skoda". It's ridiculous in Czech, but leaving the 's off in English would not be ridiculous at all, and certainly not as ridiculous (in less familiar trademark collocations) as that sequence of possessives.

                    Jamie

                    On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:28 AM, Charlie Stanford wrote:

                    > Jamie, I think Melvyn is just making the point that it is perfectly alright to say "Hill's Science's cat food is alright but their dog food is a bit stodgy" - i.e. when you are using it as a possessive and not as part of the brand name. Also the other examples of double possessives he quotes are absolutely fine - I don't think it is quite as set in stone as you are making out.
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: James Kirchner
                    > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:11 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's
                    >
                    > They are a division of Colgate-Palmolive, so their ultimate headquarters is in New York. The corporate name is "Hill's Pet Nutrition, Inc.", and that division is headquartered in Topeka, Kansas, the part of the country were many of those animal-foody, cerealy corporations are based. They may have created some shorter Euro-digestible name for the countries where English is not the native language. Maybe New York or Topeka naïvely moved the European operation to the Czech lands for their own reasons, but the headquarters are still here.
                    >
                    > Anyway, I would not write "Hill's Science's", but use "Hill's Science" as a brand name that can't be altered, so "Hill's Science cat food" or "cat food from Hill's Science", etc.
                    >
                    > Jamie
                    >
                    > On Jan 4, 2010, at 6:02 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                    >
                    > > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                    > >
                    > > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                    > > grammatically possible?
                    > >
                    > > Jamie, They might have changed their corporate blah blah, the logo says HS
                    > > and the company's called "Hill's Science" - at least in what I'm dealing
                    > > with now.. it's a proposal for a research project involving a new pet food
                    > > concept, so it's about thye company and its (mostly theoretical) products,
                    > > which might or might not be called "Science Diet"... in any case the
                    > > company's name does nopt contain the word "diet", or does it?
                    > >
                    > > (BTW, their headquarters are now in Czecho and they hired a Czech consumer
                    > > research agency to do a survey for them in England [with English pet owners]
                    > > on the presumption that they'll save... needless to say the Czech
                    > > researchers are making a mess out of it and I don't see any native Brits
                    > > voluntarily discussing pet food on a blog-like forum run by heavy Czecnglish
                    > > speakers..)
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > M
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                    > > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:37 AM
                    > > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >> Matej, I used to work on the Hill's Science Diet account at their
                    > >> advertising agency, and we would never have written it that way. I have
                    > >> never seen it without the "Diet" after "Science".
                    > >>
                    > >> The trademark is "Hill's Science Diet", often shortened to "Science Diet".
                    > >> In English it would be "Hill's Science Diet cat food", or when the Hill's
                    > >> logo is emblazoned all over the piece, just "Science Diet cat food".
                    > >>
                    > >> For a non-English language, you'd have to handle it the way you would with
                    > >> any brand name, by putting the trademark after the generic name of the
                    > >> product, such as "krmivo Hill's Science Diet" or "krmivo Science Diet".
                    > >>
                    > >> The main thing is that you not add suffixes to anything inside the brand
                    > >> name.
                    > >>
                    > >> Jamie
                    > >>
                    > >> On Jan 3, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >>> A quick ceck with native speakers please, when a brand is "somebody's
                    > >>> something",
                    > >>> (Hill's Science pet food in this case), can I use "Hill's Science's cat
                    > >>> food" etc?
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Thanks a lot
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Matej
                    > >>>
                    > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> ------------------------------------
                    > >>
                    > >> Translators' tricks of the trade:
                    > >> http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Translators' tricks of the trade:
                    > > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > --
                    > Jsem chráněn bezplatným SPAMfighter pro soukromé uživatele.
                    > Až doposud mě ušetřil příjmu 1596 spam-emailů.
                    > Platící uživatelé tuto zprávu ve svých e-mailech nedostavají.
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                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • James Kirchner
                    That s right. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      That's right.

                      On Jan 4, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:

                      > My reasoning was that if the brand name was something simple (such as Nike), nobody (not even a copywriter) would have a problem saying "Nike's new supersonic trainers.."



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Pilucha, Jiri
                      I don’t know about Nike, but as regards the company that I work for (and whose name, too, is “something simple”) – attaching an apostrophe to the
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I don’t know about Nike, but as regards the company that I work for (and whose name, too, is “something simple”) – attaching an apostrophe to the company name is regarded as infringement of the registered trade name and violation of corporate identity (although, in practice, a lawsuit about an apostrophe is rather improbable). (I do know about a company, though, that filed a lawsuit against a bidder who used their logo in low-resolution poor quality, which only goes to show you that one never knows...)

                        J



                        ________________________________
                        From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matej Klimes
                        Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 9:01 PM
                        To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's



                        Sorry for having set off another heated debate... just wanted to check..

                        I think the (European) headquarters which are in Czecho now are having their effect on the entire corporation, in all I've seen they're calling themselves "Hill's Science" (complete with the inevitable "company" tacked onto the end... now there's a brand name set in stone :)

                        My reasoning was that if the brand name was something simple (such as Nike), nobody (not even a copywriter) would have a problem saying "Nike's new supersonic trainers.."

                        Anyway, there's far more complicated stuff in that project, thanks for the pedigree explanation too, pure bred seemed OK and had enough hits, but I had a suspicion it might not be what dog-breeding people use..

                        M

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: James Kirchner
                        To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:42 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's

                        When you work in an English-speaking advertising agency, those brand names ARE set in stone, and you do everything possible not to disturb them in form or appearance. Grammatical rules, for example, would dictate that the plural of Chevy be "Chevies", but that is forbidden in GM advertising materials, and what is written is actually "Chevys", against standard English grammatical rules.

                        Besides the fact that "Hill's Science's cat food" sounds like Czenglish (regardless of what other double sequences of possessives you find in English), it should not be changed, mainly because of this general preference for trademark integrity.

                        You see evidence of this American preference in Czech in bad collocations like "se Skoda". It's ridiculous in Czech, but leaving the 's off in English would not be ridiculous at all, and certainly not as ridiculous (in less familiar trademark collocations) as that sequence of possessives.

                        Jamie

                        On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:28 AM, Charlie Stanford wrote:

                        > Jamie, I think Melvyn is just making the point that it is perfectly alright to say "Hill's Science's cat food is alright but their dog food is a bit stodgy" - i.e. when you are using it as a possessive and not as part of the brand name. Also the other examples of double possessives he quotes are absolutely fine - I don't think it is quite as set in stone as you are making out.
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: James Kirchner
                        > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:11 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's
                        >
                        > They are a division of Colgate-Palmolive, so their ultimate headquarters is in New York. The corporate name is "Hill's Pet Nutrition, Inc.", and that division is headquartered in Topeka, Kansas, the part of the country were many of those animal-foody, cerealy corporations are based. They may have created some shorter Euro-digestible name for the countries where English is not the native language. Maybe New York or Topeka naïvely moved the European operation to the Czech lands for their own reasons, but the headquarters are still here.
                        >
                        > Anyway, I would not write "Hill's Science's", but use "Hill's Science" as a brand name that can't be altered, so "Hill's Science cat food" or "cat food from Hill's Science", etc.
                        >
                        > Jamie
                        >
                        > On Jan 4, 2010, at 6:02 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                        >
                        > > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                        > >
                        > > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                        > > grammatically possible?
                        > >
                        > > Jamie, They might have changed their corporate blah blah, the logo says HS
                        > > and the company's called "Hill's Science" - at least in what I'm dealing
                        > > with now.. it's a proposal for a research project involving a new pet food
                        > > concept, so it's about thye company and its (mostly theoretical) products,
                        > > which might or might not be called "Science Diet"... in any case the
                        > > company's name does nopt contain the word "diet", or does it?
                        > >
                        > > (BTW, their headquarters are now in Czecho and they hired a Czech consumer
                        > > research agency to do a survey for them in England [with English pet owners]
                        > > on the presumption that they'll save... needless to say the Czech
                        > > researchers are making a mess out of it and I don't see any native Brits
                        > > voluntarily discussing pet food on a blog-like forum run by heavy Czecnglish
                        > > speakers..)
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > M
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...<mailto:jpklists%40sbcglobal.net>>
                        > > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>>
                        > > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:37 AM
                        > > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >> Matej, I used to work on the Hill's Science Diet account at their
                        > >> advertising agency, and we would never have written it that way. I have
                        > >> never seen it without the "Diet" after "Science".
                        > >>
                        > >> The trademark is "Hill's Science Diet", often shortened to "Science Diet".
                        > >> In English it would be "Hill's Science Diet cat food", or when the Hill's
                        > >> logo is emblazoned all over the piece, just "Science Diet cat food".
                        > >>
                        > >> For a non-English language, you'd have to handle it the way you would with
                        > >> any brand name, by putting the trademark after the generic name of the
                        > >> product, such as "krmivo Hill's Science Diet" or "krmivo Science Diet".
                        > >>
                        > >> The main thing is that you not add suffixes to anything inside the brand
                        > >> name.
                        > >>
                        > >> Jamie
                        > >>
                        > >> On Jan 3, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >>> A quick ceck with native speakers please, when a brand is "somebody's
                        > >>> something",
                        > >>> (Hill's Science pet food in this case), can I use "Hill's Science's cat
                        > >>> food" etc?
                        > >>>
                        > >>> Thanks a lot
                        > >>>
                        > >>> Matej
                        > >>>
                        > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >>>
                        > >>>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> ------------------------------------
                        > >>
                        > >> Translators' tricks of the trade:
                        > >> http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > Translators' tricks of the trade:
                        > > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > --
                        > Jsem chráněn bezplatným SPAMfighter pro soukromé uživatele.
                        > Až doposud mě ušetřil příjmu 1596 spam-emailů.
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                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >

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