Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's

Expand Messages
  • Pilucha, Jiri
    Myslim, ze to je thoroughbred Jirka ________________________________ From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matej
    Message 1 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Myslim, ze to je thoroughbred
      Jirka

      ________________________________
      From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matej Klimes
      Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:42 PM
      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's



      Thanks again Melvyn,

      It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:

      IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:

      The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD that be closer to your heart than saying:
      The potential of Hill's Science new products is...

      To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a rule without thinking..

      On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?

      Thanks

      Matej

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Melvyn
      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
      Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's

      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
      >
      > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
      >
      > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
      > grammatically possible?

      I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the sort of thing you are asking about.

      As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it out IMHO.

      Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.

      Ugh, groan, contrived.

      M.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • James Kirchner
      Okay, the first sentence, with Hill s Science s would be grammatically correct, and the second one wouldn t be. However, in that case the advertising agency
      Message 2 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Okay, the first sentence, with "Hill's Science's" would be grammatically correct, and the second one wouldn't be. However, in that case the advertising agency would do some contortion to avoid adding the second 's, such as saying, "The potential of the new products from Hill's Science is..." or completely overhauling the sentence.

        "Cistokrevny" is definitely "pure-bred". "Pure-breed" (as an adjective) is definitely wrong.

        According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, you can use the adjectives "pedigreed" (listed first) or "pedigree", but this gets into a mess as to whether there is a piece of paper (i.e., a pedigree) documenting that the animal is pure-bred. My Oxford Concise Dictionary (UK) does not have "pedigree" as an adjective, but only "pedigreed", which fits my sense of the word better than the Webster listing. There's a tendency in the US for people to forget the past-tense suffix on adjectives, resulting in signs in stores that say "CAN POP" or "CAN VEGETABLES", usually in places that would also have a clothing section for "MENS".

        Jamie

        On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:

        > Thanks again Melvyn,
        >
        > It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:
        >
        > IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:
        >
        > The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD that be closer to your heart than saying:
        > The potential of Hill's Science new products is...
        >
        > To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a rule without thinking..
        >
        > On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?
        >
        > Thanks
        >
        > Matej
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Melvyn
        > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
        > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
        >
        > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
        > >
        > > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
        > > grammatically possible?
        >
        > I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the sort of thing you are asking about.
        >
        > As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it out IMHO.
        >
        > Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.
        >
        > Ugh, groan, contrived.
        >
        > M.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Charlie Stanford
        Hi Matej, Firstly I think we are more inclined to use pedigree in Britain. Secondly (I am answering the wrong way round) from what I can tell the company is
        Message 3 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Matej,

          Firstly I think we are more inclined to use "pedigree" in Britain.

          Secondly (I am answering the wrong way round) from what I can tell the company is called Hill's and Science Diet is one of its product lines (as opposed to "Prescription Diet"). You would have to leave the Diet in there (as Jamie said). "Hill's Science Diet's new products", "Hill's Science Diet's biggest seller" etc. would be better, as you assumed. I am afraid that I disagree with Jamie about "Hill's Science Diet cat food", being a brand name set in stone - "cat food" does not form part of the brand name...it is a product type and so if you want to stick an apostrophe in there and say "I prefer Hill's Science Diet's cat food to its dog food" then I don't see why not.

          Happy New Year
          Charlie



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: James Kirchner
          To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:42 PM
          Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's



          When you work in an English-speaking advertising agency, those brand names ARE set in stone, and you do everything possible not to disturb them in form or appearance. Grammatical rules, for example, would dictate that the plural of Chevy be "Chevies", but that is forbidden in GM advertising materials, and what is written is actually "Chevys", against standard English grammatical rules.

          Besides the fact that "Hill's Science's cat food" sounds like Czenglish (regardless of what other double sequences of possessives you find in English), it should not be changed, mainly because of this general preference for trademark integrity.

          You see evidence of this American preference in Czech in bad collocations like "se Skoda". It's ridiculous in Czech, but leaving the 's off in English would not be ridiculous at all, and certainly not as ridiculous (in less familiar trademark collocations) as that sequence of possessives.

          Jamie

          On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:28 AM, Charlie Stanford wrote:

          > Jamie, I think Melvyn is just making the point that it is perfectly alright to say "Hill's Science's cat food is alright but their dog food is a bit stodgy" - i.e. when you are using it as a possessive and not as part of the brand name. Also the other examples of double possessives he quotes are absolutely fine - I don't think it is quite as set in stone as you are making out.
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: James Kirchner
          > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:11 PM
          > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's
          >
          > They are a division of Colgate-Palmolive, so their ultimate headquarters is in New York. The corporate name is "Hill's Pet Nutrition, Inc.", and that division is headquartered in Topeka, Kansas, the part of the country were many of those animal-foody, cerealy corporations are based. They may have created some shorter Euro-digestible name for the countries where English is not the native language. Maybe New York or Topeka naïvely moved the European operation to the Czech lands for their own reasons, but the headquarters are still here.
          >
          > Anyway, I would not write "Hill's Science's", but use "Hill's Science" as a brand name that can't be altered, so "Hill's Science cat food" or "cat food from Hill's Science", etc.
          >
          > Jamie
          >
          > On Jan 4, 2010, at 6:02 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
          >
          > > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
          > >
          > > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
          > > grammatically possible?
          > >
          > > Jamie, They might have changed their corporate blah blah, the logo says HS
          > > and the company's called "Hill's Science" - at least in what I'm dealing
          > > with now.. it's a proposal for a research project involving a new pet food
          > > concept, so it's about thye company and its (mostly theoretical) products,
          > > which might or might not be called "Science Diet"... in any case the
          > > company's name does nopt contain the word "diet", or does it?
          > >
          > > (BTW, their headquarters are now in Czecho and they hired a Czech consumer
          > > research agency to do a survey for them in England [with English pet owners]
          > > on the presumption that they'll save... needless to say the Czech
          > > researchers are making a mess out of it and I don't see any native Brits
          > > voluntarily discussing pet food on a blog-like forum run by heavy Czecnglish
          > > speakers..)
          > >
          > >
          > > M
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
          > > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:37 AM
          > > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's
          > >
          > >
          > >> Matej, I used to work on the Hill's Science Diet account at their
          > >> advertising agency, and we would never have written it that way. I have
          > >> never seen it without the "Diet" after "Science".
          > >>
          > >> The trademark is "Hill's Science Diet", often shortened to "Science Diet".
          > >> In English it would be "Hill's Science Diet cat food", or when the Hill's
          > >> logo is emblazoned all over the piece, just "Science Diet cat food".
          > >>
          > >> For a non-English language, you'd have to handle it the way you would with
          > >> any brand name, by putting the trademark after the generic name of the
          > >> product, such as "krmivo Hill's Science Diet" or "krmivo Science Diet".
          > >>
          > >> The main thing is that you not add suffixes to anything inside the brand
          > >> name.
          > >>
          > >> Jamie
          > >>
          > >> On Jan 3, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:
          > >>
          > >>> A quick ceck with native speakers please, when a brand is "somebody's
          > >>> something",
          > >>> (Hill's Science pet food in this case), can I use "Hill's Science's cat
          > >>> food" etc?
          > >>>
          > >>> Thanks a lot
          > >>>
          > >>> Matej
          > >>>
          > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> ------------------------------------
          > >>
          > >> Translators' tricks of the trade:
          > >> http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Translators' tricks of the trade:
          > > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > --
          > Jsem chráněn bezplatným SPAMfighter pro soukromé uživatele.
          > Až doposud mě ušetřil příjmu 1596 spam-emailů.
          > Platící uživatelé tuto zprávu ve svých e-mailech nedostavají.
          > Stáhněte si zadarmo SPAMfighter zde: www.spamfighter.com/lcs
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          --
          Jsem chráněn bezplatným SPAMfighter pro soukromé uživatele.
          Až doposud mě ušetřil příjmu 1596 spam-emailů.
          Platící uživatelé tuto zprávu ve svých e-mailech nedostavají.
          Stáhněte si zadarmo SPAMfighter zde: www.spamfighter.com/lcs


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • James Kirchner
          ... You misunderstood me, Charlie. I said Hill s Science Diet is a brand name set in stone, not the whole thing with cat food included. You re right.
          Message 4 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            On Jan 4, 2010, at 11:09 AM, Charlie Stanford wrote:

            > I am afraid that I disagree with Jamie about "Hill's Science Diet cat food", being a brand name set in stone - "cat food" does not form part of the brand name...it is a product type

            You misunderstood me, Charlie. I said "Hill's Science Diet" is a brand name set in stone, not the whole thing with "cat food" included. You're right. It's a product type in that case.

            > and so if you want to stick an apostrophe in there and say "I prefer Hill's Science Diet's cat food to its dog food" then I don't see why not.

            It would never appear in their official marketing or advertising publications. You could do it in journalism or on the street, where you don't have a client breathing down your neck about the integrity of the trademark.

            Jamie



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • James Kirchner
            Only for horses. Never for dogs and cats. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Only for horses. Never for dogs and cats.

              On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:47 AM, Pilucha, Jiri wrote:

              >
              > Myslim, ze to je thoroughbred
              > Jirka
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matej Klimes
              > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:42 PM
              > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
              >
              > Thanks again Melvyn,
              >
              > It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:
              >
              > IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:
              >
              > The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD that be closer to your heart than saying:
              > The potential of Hill's Science new products is...
              >
              > To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a rule without thinking..
              >
              > On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?
              >
              > Thanks
              >
              > Matej
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Melvyn
              > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
              > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
              >
              > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
              > >
              > > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
              > > grammatically possible?
              >
              > I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the sort of thing you are asking about.
              >
              > As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it out IMHO.
              >
              > Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.
              >
              > Ugh, groan, contrived.
              >
              > M.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Pilucha, Jiri
              Yes, that s why I immediately recalled the email but apparently the recall failed. Thanks for the comment Jiri ... From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
              Message 6 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Yes, that's why I immediately recalled the email but apparently the recall failed. Thanks for the comment
                Jiri

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Kirchner
                Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:39 PM
                To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's

                Only for horses. Never for dogs and cats.

                On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:47 AM, Pilucha, Jiri wrote:

                >
                > Myslim, ze to je thoroughbred
                > Jirka
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matej Klimes
                > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:42 PM
                > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                >
                > Thanks again Melvyn,
                >
                > It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:
                >
                > IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:
                >
                > The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD that be closer to your heart than saying:
                > The potential of Hill's Science new products is...
                >
                > To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a rule without thinking..
                >
                > On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?
                >
                > Thanks
                >
                > Matej
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Melvyn
                > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
                > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                >
                > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                > >
                > > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                > > grammatically possible?
                >
                > I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the sort of thing you are asking about.
                >
                > As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it out IMHO.
                >
                > Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.
                >
                > Ugh, groan, contrived.
                >
                > M.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------

                Translators' tricks of the trade:
                http://czeng.wetpaint.com/




                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • Charlie Stanford
                I have never heard pedigreed being used with a d on the end.... perhaps that is an American thing. We (Brits) would use pedigree rather than pure-bred. ...
                Message 7 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  I have never heard pedigreed being used with a d on the end.... perhaps that
                  is an American thing. We (Brits) would use pedigree rather than pure-bred.

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                  To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:03 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's


                  > Okay, the first sentence, with "Hill's Science's" would be grammatically
                  > correct, and the second one wouldn't be. However, in that case the
                  > advertising agency would do some contortion to avoid adding the second 's,
                  > such as saying, "The potential of the new products from Hill's Science
                  > is..." or completely overhauling the sentence.
                  >
                  > "Cistokrevny" is definitely "pure-bred". "Pure-breed" (as an adjective)
                  > is definitely wrong.
                  >
                  > According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, you can use the adjectives
                  > "pedigreed" (listed first) or "pedigree", but this gets into a mess as to
                  > whether there is a piece of paper (i.e., a pedigree) documenting that the
                  > animal is pure-bred. My Oxford Concise Dictionary (UK) does not have
                  > "pedigree" as an adjective, but only "pedigreed", which fits my sense of
                  > the word better than the Webster listing. There's a tendency in the US
                  > for people to forget the past-tense suffix on adjectives, resulting in
                  > signs in stores that say "CAN POP" or "CAN VEGETABLES", usually in places
                  > that would also have a clothing section for "MENS".
                  >
                  > Jamie
                  >
                  > On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                  >
                  >> Thanks again Melvyn,
                  >>
                  >> It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to
                  >> ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:
                  >>
                  >> IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves
                  >> Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a
                  >> sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:
                  >>
                  >> The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD
                  >> that be closer to your heart than saying:
                  >> The potential of Hill's Science new products is...
                  >>
                  >> To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a
                  >> rule without thinking..
                  >>
                  >> On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for
                  >> "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various
                  >> combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech
                  >> clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is
                  >> she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?
                  >>
                  >> Thanks
                  >>
                  >> Matej
                  >>
                  >> ----- Original Message -----
                  >> From: Melvyn
                  >> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                  >> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
                  >> Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                  >>
                  >> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
                  >> >
                  >> > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                  >> >
                  >> > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                  >> > grammatically possible?
                  >>
                  >> I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or
                  >> "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books
                  >> suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark
                  >> St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the
                  >> sort of thing you are asking about.
                  >>
                  >> As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the
                  >> second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you
                  >> any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it
                  >> out IMHO.
                  >>
                  >> Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is
                  >> not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have
                  >> three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.
                  >>
                  >> Ugh, groan, contrived.
                  >>
                  >> M.
                  >>
                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Translators' tricks of the trade:
                  > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  --
                  Jsem chránin bezplatným SPAMfighter pro soukromé u3ivatele.
                  A3 doposud mi u1etoil poíjmu 1596 spam-emailu.
                  Platící u3ivatelé tuto zprávu ve svých e-mailech nedostavají.
                  Stáhnite si zadarmo SPAMfighter zde: www.spamfighter.com/lcs
                • James Kirchner
                  Look in your Oxford dictionary.
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Look in your Oxford dictionary.

                    On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Charlie Stanford wrote:

                    > I have never heard pedigreed being used with a d on the end.... perhaps that
                    > is an American thing. We (Brits) would use pedigree rather than pure-bred.
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                    > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:03 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                    >
                    >
                    >> Okay, the first sentence, with "Hill's Science's" would be grammatically
                    >> correct, and the second one wouldn't be. However, in that case the
                    >> advertising agency would do some contortion to avoid adding the second 's,
                    >> such as saying, "The potential of the new products from Hill's Science
                    >> is..." or completely overhauling the sentence.
                    >>
                    >> "Cistokrevny" is definitely "pure-bred". "Pure-breed" (as an adjective)
                    >> is definitely wrong.
                    >>
                    >> According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, you can use the adjectives
                    >> "pedigreed" (listed first) or "pedigree", but this gets into a mess as to
                    >> whether there is a piece of paper (i.e., a pedigree) documenting that the
                    >> animal is pure-bred. My Oxford Concise Dictionary (UK) does not have
                    >> "pedigree" as an adjective, but only "pedigreed", which fits my sense of
                    >> the word better than the Webster listing. There's a tendency in the US
                    >> for people to forget the past-tense suffix on adjectives, resulting in
                    >> signs in stores that say "CAN POP" or "CAN VEGETABLES", usually in places
                    >> that would also have a clothing section for "MENS".
                    >>
                    >> Jamie
                    >>
                    >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                    >>
                    >>> Thanks again Melvyn,
                    >>>
                    >>> It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to
                    >>> ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:
                    >>>
                    >>> IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves
                    >>> Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a
                    >>> sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:
                    >>>
                    >>> The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD
                    >>> that be closer to your heart than saying:
                    >>> The potential of Hill's Science new products is...
                    >>>
                    >>> To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a
                    >>> rule without thinking..
                    >>>
                    >>> On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for
                    >>> "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various
                    >>> combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech
                    >>> clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is
                    >>> she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?
                    >>>
                    >>> Thanks
                    >>>
                    >>> Matej
                    >>>
                    >>> ----- Original Message -----
                    >>> From: Melvyn
                    >>> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                    >>> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
                    >>> Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                    >>>
                    >>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                    >>>> grammatically possible?
                    >>>
                    >>> I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or
                    >>> "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books
                    >>> suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark
                    >>> St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the
                    >>> sort of thing you are asking about.
                    >>>
                    >>> As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the
                    >>> second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you
                    >>> any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it
                    >>> out IMHO.
                    >>>
                    >>> Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is
                    >>> not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have
                    >>> three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.
                    >>>
                    >>> Ugh, groan, contrived.
                    >>>
                    >>> M.
                    >>>
                    >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> ------------------------------------
                    >>
                    >> Translators' tricks of the trade:
                    >> http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > Jsem chránin bezplatným SPAMfighter pro soukromé u3ivatele.
                    > A3 doposud mi u1etoil poíjmu 1596 spam-emailu.
                    > Platící u3ivatelé tuto zprávu ve svých e-mailech nedostavají.
                    > Stáhnite si zadarmo SPAMfighter zde: www.spamfighter.com/lcs
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Translators' tricks of the trade:
                    > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Josef Hlavac
                    This is the Internet... once you let something out, there s no way to get it back in :) Josef
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      This is the Internet... once you let something out, there's no way to
                      get it back in :)

                      Josef

                      Pilucha, Jiri wrote:
                      > Yes, that's why I immediately recalled the email but apparently the recall failed. Thanks for the comment
                      > Jiri
                      >
                    • Charlie Stanford
                      Maybe it says it in the Oxford dictionary but I have still never heard pedigree being used with a d on the end for any breed of animal. I am an English
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Maybe it says it in the Oxford dictionary but I have still never heard pedigree being used with a d on the end for any breed of animal. I am an English native-speaker from a farming background and am not that green around the ears but maybe I have not been listening carefully enough.... Perhaps people say it but not anyone I have ever come across.
                        Incidentally I think you will find that "thoroughbred" horses are not a pure breed of a certain type of horse but a specific breed of (originally crossbred)racehorse. So you can have a "pure Arab stallion" but a "Thoroughbred Arab stallion" is actually a cross between a Thoroughbred and an Arab.


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: James Kirchner
                        To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 7:32 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's



                        Look in your Oxford dictionary.

                        On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Charlie Stanford wrote:

                        > I have never heard pedigreed being used with a d on the end.... perhaps that
                        > is an American thing. We (Brits) would use pedigree rather than pure-bred.
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                        > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:03 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                        >
                        >
                        >> Okay, the first sentence, with "Hill's Science's" would be grammatically
                        >> correct, and the second one wouldn't be. However, in that case the
                        >> advertising agency would do some contortion to avoid adding the second 's,
                        >> such as saying, "The potential of the new products from Hill's Science
                        >> is..." or completely overhauling the sentence.
                        >>
                        >> "Cistokrevny" is definitely "pure-bred". "Pure-breed" (as an adjective)
                        >> is definitely wrong.
                        >>
                        >> According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, you can use the adjectives
                        >> "pedigreed" (listed first) or "pedigree", but this gets into a mess as to
                        >> whether there is a piece of paper (i.e., a pedigree) documenting that the
                        >> animal is pure-bred. My Oxford Concise Dictionary (UK) does not have
                        >> "pedigree" as an adjective, but only "pedigreed", which fits my sense of
                        >> the word better than the Webster listing. There's a tendency in the US
                        >> for people to forget the past-tense suffix on adjectives, resulting in
                        >> signs in stores that say "CAN POP" or "CAN VEGETABLES", usually in places
                        >> that would also have a clothing section for "MENS".
                        >>
                        >> Jamie
                        >>
                        >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                        >>
                        >>> Thanks again Melvyn,
                        >>>
                        >>> It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to
                        >>> ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:
                        >>>
                        >>> IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves
                        >>> Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a
                        >>> sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:
                        >>>
                        >>> The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD
                        >>> that be closer to your heart than saying:
                        >>> The potential of Hill's Science new products is...
                        >>>
                        >>> To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a
                        >>> rule without thinking..
                        >>>
                        >>> On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for
                        >>> "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various
                        >>> combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech
                        >>> clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is
                        >>> she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?
                        >>>
                        >>> Thanks
                        >>>
                        >>> Matej
                        >>>
                        >>> ----- Original Message -----
                        >>> From: Melvyn
                        >>> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                        >>> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
                        >>> Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                        >>>
                        >>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                        >>>> grammatically possible?
                        >>>
                        >>> I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or
                        >>> "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books
                        >>> suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark
                        >>> St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the
                        >>> sort of thing you are asking about.
                        >>>
                        >>> As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the
                        >>> second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you
                        >>> any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it
                        >>> out IMHO.
                        >>>
                        >>> Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is
                        >>> not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have
                        >>> three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.
                        >>>
                        >>> Ugh, groan, contrived.
                        >>>
                        >>> M.
                        >>>
                        >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> ------------------------------------
                        >>
                        >> Translators' tricks of the trade:
                        >> http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > Jsem chránin bezplatným SPAMfighter pro soukromé u3ivatele.
                        > A3 doposud mi u1etoil poíjmu 1596 spam-emailu.
                        > Platící u3ivatelé tuto zprávu ve svých e-mailech nedostavají.
                        > Stáhnite si zadarmo SPAMfighter zde: www.spamfighter.com/lcs
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Translators' tricks of the trade:
                        > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >





                        --
                        Jsem chráněn bezplatným SPAMfighter pro soukromé uživatele.
                        Až doposud mě ušetřil příjmu 1596 spam-emailů.
                        Platící uživatelé tuto zprávu ve svých e-mailech nedostavají.
                        Stáhněte si zadarmo SPAMfighter zde: www.spamfighter.com/lcs


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Sabina Králová
                        I am not a native speaker but I breed dogs, ride horses etc. Charlie is right. I have always seen pedigree dogs and never pedigreed . Sabina ... From:
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I am not a native speaker but I breed dogs, ride horses etc. Charlie is right. I have always seen "pedigree dogs" and never "pedigreed".
                          Sabina
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Charlie Stanford
                          Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 8:11 PM
                          To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [SPAM] Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's



                          Maybe it says it in the Oxford dictionary but I have still never heard pedigree being used with a d on the end for any breed of animal. I am an English native-speaker from a farming background and am not that green around the ears but maybe I have not been listening carefully enough.... Perhaps people say it but not anyone I have ever come across.
                          Incidentally I think you will find that "thoroughbred" horses are not a pure breed of a certain type of horse but a specific breed of (originally crossbred)racehorse. So you can have a "pure Arab stallion" but a "Thoroughbred Arab stallion" is actually a cross between a Thoroughbred and an Arab.


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: James Kirchner
                          To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 7:32 PM
                          Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's

                          Look in your Oxford dictionary.

                          On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Charlie Stanford wrote:

                          > I have never heard pedigreed being used with a d on the end.... perhaps that
                          > is an American thing. We (Brits) would use pedigree rather than pure-bred.
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                          > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:03 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                          >
                          >
                          >> Okay, the first sentence, with "Hill's Science's" would be grammatically
                          >> correct, and the second one wouldn't be. However, in that case the
                          >> advertising agency would do some contortion to avoid adding the second 's,
                          >> such as saying, "The potential of the new products from Hill's Science
                          >> is..." or completely overhauling the sentence.
                          >>
                          >> "Cistokrevny" is definitely "pure-bred". "Pure-breed" (as an adjective)
                          >> is definitely wrong.
                          >>
                          >> According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, you can use the adjectives
                          >> "pedigreed" (listed first) or "pedigree", but this gets into a mess as to
                          >> whether there is a piece of paper (i.e., a pedigree) documenting that the
                          >> animal is pure-bred. My Oxford Concise Dictionary (UK) does not have
                          >> "pedigree" as an adjective, but only "pedigreed", which fits my sense of
                          >> the word better than the Webster listing. There's a tendency in the US
                          >> for people to forget the past-tense suffix on adjectives, resulting in
                          >> signs in stores that say "CAN POP" or "CAN VEGETABLES", usually in places
                          >> that would also have a clothing section for "MENS".
                          >>
                          >> Jamie
                          >>
                          >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                          >>
                          >>> Thanks again Melvyn,
                          >>>
                          >>> It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to
                          >>> ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:
                          >>>
                          >>> IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves
                          >>> Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a
                          >>> sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:
                          >>>
                          >>> The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD
                          >>> that be closer to your heart than saying:
                          >>> The potential of Hill's Science new products is...
                          >>>
                          >>> To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a
                          >>> rule without thinking..
                          >>>
                          >>> On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for
                          >>> "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various
                          >>> combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech
                          >>> clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is
                          >>> she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?
                          >>>
                          >>> Thanks
                          >>>
                          >>> Matej
                          >>>
                          >>> ----- Original Message -----
                          >>> From: Melvyn
                          >>> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                          >>> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
                          >>> Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                          >>>
                          >>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                          >>>> grammatically possible?
                          >>>
                          >>> I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or
                          >>> "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books
                          >>> suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark
                          >>> St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the
                          >>> sort of thing you are asking about.
                          >>>
                          >>> As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the
                          >>> second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you
                          >>> any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it
                          >>> out IMHO.
                          >>>
                          >>> Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is
                          >>> not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have
                          >>> three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.
                          >>>
                          >>> Ugh, groan, contrived.
                          >>>
                          >>> M.
                          >>>
                          >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> ------------------------------------
                          >>
                          >> Translators' tricks of the trade:
                          >> http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > Jsem chránin bezplatným SPAMfighter pro soukromé u3ivatele.
                          > A3 doposud mi u1etoil poíjmu 1596 spam-emailu.
                          > Platící u3ivatelé tuto zprávu ve svých e-mailech nedostavají.
                          > Stáhnite si zadarmo SPAMfighter zde: www.spamfighter.com/lcs
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Translators' tricks of the trade:
                          > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          --
                          Jsem chráněn bezplatným SPAMfighter pro soukromé uživatele.
                          Až doposud mě ušetřil příjmu 1596 spam-emailů.
                          Platící uživatelé tuto zprávu ve svých e-mailech nedostavají.
                          Stáhněte si zadarmo SPAMfighter zde: www.spamfighter.com/lcs

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Matej Klimes
                          Sorry for having set off another heated debate... just wanted to check.. I think the (European) headquarters which are in Czecho now are having their effect on
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Sorry for having set off another heated debate... just wanted to check..

                            I think the (European) headquarters which are in Czecho now are having their effect on the entire corporation, in all I've seen they're calling themselves "Hill's Science" (complete with the inevitable "company" tacked onto the end... now there's a brand name set in stone :)

                            My reasoning was that if the brand name was something simple (such as Nike), nobody (not even a copywriter) would have a problem saying "Nike's new supersonic trainers.."

                            Anyway, there's far more complicated stuff in that project, thanks for the pedigree explanation too, pure bred seemed OK and had enough hits, but I had a suspicion it might not be what dog-breeding people use..

                            M




                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: James Kirchner
                            To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:42 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's



                            When you work in an English-speaking advertising agency, those brand names ARE set in stone, and you do everything possible not to disturb them in form or appearance. Grammatical rules, for example, would dictate that the plural of Chevy be "Chevies", but that is forbidden in GM advertising materials, and what is written is actually "Chevys", against standard English grammatical rules.

                            Besides the fact that "Hill's Science's cat food" sounds like Czenglish (regardless of what other double sequences of possessives you find in English), it should not be changed, mainly because of this general preference for trademark integrity.

                            You see evidence of this American preference in Czech in bad collocations like "se Skoda". It's ridiculous in Czech, but leaving the 's off in English would not be ridiculous at all, and certainly not as ridiculous (in less familiar trademark collocations) as that sequence of possessives.

                            Jamie

                            On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:28 AM, Charlie Stanford wrote:

                            > Jamie, I think Melvyn is just making the point that it is perfectly alright to say "Hill's Science's cat food is alright but their dog food is a bit stodgy" - i.e. when you are using it as a possessive and not as part of the brand name. Also the other examples of double possessives he quotes are absolutely fine - I don't think it is quite as set in stone as you are making out.
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: James Kirchner
                            > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:11 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's
                            >
                            > They are a division of Colgate-Palmolive, so their ultimate headquarters is in New York. The corporate name is "Hill's Pet Nutrition, Inc.", and that division is headquartered in Topeka, Kansas, the part of the country were many of those animal-foody, cerealy corporations are based. They may have created some shorter Euro-digestible name for the countries where English is not the native language. Maybe New York or Topeka naïvely moved the European operation to the Czech lands for their own reasons, but the headquarters are still here.
                            >
                            > Anyway, I would not write "Hill's Science's", but use "Hill's Science" as a brand name that can't be altered, so "Hill's Science cat food" or "cat food from Hill's Science", etc.
                            >
                            > Jamie
                            >
                            > On Jan 4, 2010, at 6:02 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                            >
                            > > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                            > >
                            > > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                            > > grammatically possible?
                            > >
                            > > Jamie, They might have changed their corporate blah blah, the logo says HS
                            > > and the company's called "Hill's Science" - at least in what I'm dealing
                            > > with now.. it's a proposal for a research project involving a new pet food
                            > > concept, so it's about thye company and its (mostly theoretical) products,
                            > > which might or might not be called "Science Diet"... in any case the
                            > > company's name does nopt contain the word "diet", or does it?
                            > >
                            > > (BTW, their headquarters are now in Czecho and they hired a Czech consumer
                            > > research agency to do a survey for them in England [with English pet owners]
                            > > on the presumption that they'll save... needless to say the Czech
                            > > researchers are making a mess out of it and I don't see any native Brits
                            > > voluntarily discussing pet food on a blog-like forum run by heavy Czecnglish
                            > > speakers..)
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > M
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                            > > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:37 AM
                            > > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >> Matej, I used to work on the Hill's Science Diet account at their
                            > >> advertising agency, and we would never have written it that way. I have
                            > >> never seen it without the "Diet" after "Science".
                            > >>
                            > >> The trademark is "Hill's Science Diet", often shortened to "Science Diet".
                            > >> In English it would be "Hill's Science Diet cat food", or when the Hill's
                            > >> logo is emblazoned all over the piece, just "Science Diet cat food".
                            > >>
                            > >> For a non-English language, you'd have to handle it the way you would with
                            > >> any brand name, by putting the trademark after the generic name of the
                            > >> product, such as "krmivo Hill's Science Diet" or "krmivo Science Diet".
                            > >>
                            > >> The main thing is that you not add suffixes to anything inside the brand
                            > >> name.
                            > >>
                            > >> Jamie
                            > >>
                            > >> On Jan 3, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                            > >>
                            > >>> A quick ceck with native speakers please, when a brand is "somebody's
                            > >>> something",
                            > >>> (Hill's Science pet food in this case), can I use "Hill's Science's cat
                            > >>> food" etc?
                            > >>>
                            > >>> Thanks a lot
                            > >>>
                            > >>> Matej
                            > >>>
                            > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >>>
                            > >>>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> ------------------------------------
                            > >>
                            > >> Translators' tricks of the trade:
                            > >> http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ------------------------------------
                            > >
                            > > Translators' tricks of the trade:
                            > > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > --
                            > Jsem chráněn bezplatným SPAMfighter pro soukromé uživatele.
                            > Až doposud mě ušetřil příjmu 1596 spam-emailů.
                            > Platící uživatelé tuto zprávu ve svých e-mailech nedostavají.
                            > Stáhněte si zadarmo SPAMfighter zde: www.spamfighter.com/lcs
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • James Kirchner
                            That s right. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              That's right.

                              On Jan 4, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:

                              > My reasoning was that if the brand name was something simple (such as Nike), nobody (not even a copywriter) would have a problem saying "Nike's new supersonic trainers.."



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Pilucha, Jiri
                              I don’t know about Nike, but as regards the company that I work for (and whose name, too, is “something simple”) – attaching an apostrophe to the
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I don’t know about Nike, but as regards the company that I work for (and whose name, too, is “something simple”) – attaching an apostrophe to the company name is regarded as infringement of the registered trade name and violation of corporate identity (although, in practice, a lawsuit about an apostrophe is rather improbable). (I do know about a company, though, that filed a lawsuit against a bidder who used their logo in low-resolution poor quality, which only goes to show you that one never knows...)

                                J



                                ________________________________
                                From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matej Klimes
                                Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 9:01 PM
                                To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's



                                Sorry for having set off another heated debate... just wanted to check..

                                I think the (European) headquarters which are in Czecho now are having their effect on the entire corporation, in all I've seen they're calling themselves "Hill's Science" (complete with the inevitable "company" tacked onto the end... now there's a brand name set in stone :)

                                My reasoning was that if the brand name was something simple (such as Nike), nobody (not even a copywriter) would have a problem saying "Nike's new supersonic trainers.."

                                Anyway, there's far more complicated stuff in that project, thanks for the pedigree explanation too, pure bred seemed OK and had enough hits, but I had a suspicion it might not be what dog-breeding people use..

                                M

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: James Kirchner
                                To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:42 PM
                                Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's

                                When you work in an English-speaking advertising agency, those brand names ARE set in stone, and you do everything possible not to disturb them in form or appearance. Grammatical rules, for example, would dictate that the plural of Chevy be "Chevies", but that is forbidden in GM advertising materials, and what is written is actually "Chevys", against standard English grammatical rules.

                                Besides the fact that "Hill's Science's cat food" sounds like Czenglish (regardless of what other double sequences of possessives you find in English), it should not be changed, mainly because of this general preference for trademark integrity.

                                You see evidence of this American preference in Czech in bad collocations like "se Skoda". It's ridiculous in Czech, but leaving the 's off in English would not be ridiculous at all, and certainly not as ridiculous (in less familiar trademark collocations) as that sequence of possessives.

                                Jamie

                                On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:28 AM, Charlie Stanford wrote:

                                > Jamie, I think Melvyn is just making the point that it is perfectly alright to say "Hill's Science's cat food is alright but their dog food is a bit stodgy" - i.e. when you are using it as a possessive and not as part of the brand name. Also the other examples of double possessives he quotes are absolutely fine - I don't think it is quite as set in stone as you are making out.
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: James Kirchner
                                > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:11 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's
                                >
                                > They are a division of Colgate-Palmolive, so their ultimate headquarters is in New York. The corporate name is "Hill's Pet Nutrition, Inc.", and that division is headquartered in Topeka, Kansas, the part of the country were many of those animal-foody, cerealy corporations are based. They may have created some shorter Euro-digestible name for the countries where English is not the native language. Maybe New York or Topeka naïvely moved the European operation to the Czech lands for their own reasons, but the headquarters are still here.
                                >
                                > Anyway, I would not write "Hill's Science's", but use "Hill's Science" as a brand name that can't be altered, so "Hill's Science cat food" or "cat food from Hill's Science", etc.
                                >
                                > Jamie
                                >
                                > On Jan 4, 2010, at 6:02 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                                >
                                > > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                                > >
                                > > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                                > > grammatically possible?
                                > >
                                > > Jamie, They might have changed their corporate blah blah, the logo says HS
                                > > and the company's called "Hill's Science" - at least in what I'm dealing
                                > > with now.. it's a proposal for a research project involving a new pet food
                                > > concept, so it's about thye company and its (mostly theoretical) products,
                                > > which might or might not be called "Science Diet"... in any case the
                                > > company's name does nopt contain the word "diet", or does it?
                                > >
                                > > (BTW, their headquarters are now in Czecho and they hired a Czech consumer
                                > > research agency to do a survey for them in England [with English pet owners]
                                > > on the presumption that they'll save... needless to say the Czech
                                > > researchers are making a mess out of it and I don't see any native Brits
                                > > voluntarily discussing pet food on a blog-like forum run by heavy Czecnglish
                                > > speakers..)
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > M
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...<mailto:jpklists%40sbcglobal.net>>
                                > > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>>
                                > > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:37 AM
                                > > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >> Matej, I used to work on the Hill's Science Diet account at their
                                > >> advertising agency, and we would never have written it that way. I have
                                > >> never seen it without the "Diet" after "Science".
                                > >>
                                > >> The trademark is "Hill's Science Diet", often shortened to "Science Diet".
                                > >> In English it would be "Hill's Science Diet cat food", or when the Hill's
                                > >> logo is emblazoned all over the piece, just "Science Diet cat food".
                                > >>
                                > >> For a non-English language, you'd have to handle it the way you would with
                                > >> any brand name, by putting the trademark after the generic name of the
                                > >> product, such as "krmivo Hill's Science Diet" or "krmivo Science Diet".
                                > >>
                                > >> The main thing is that you not add suffixes to anything inside the brand
                                > >> name.
                                > >>
                                > >> Jamie
                                > >>
                                > >> On Jan 3, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                                > >>
                                > >>> A quick ceck with native speakers please, when a brand is "somebody's
                                > >>> something",
                                > >>> (Hill's Science pet food in this case), can I use "Hill's Science's cat
                                > >>> food" etc?
                                > >>>
                                > >>> Thanks a lot
                                > >>>
                                > >>> Matej
                                > >>>
                                > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >>>
                                > >>>
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >> ------------------------------------
                                > >>
                                > >> Translators' tricks of the trade:
                                > >> http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ------------------------------------
                                > >
                                > > Translators' tricks of the trade:
                                > > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                > --
                                > Jsem chráněn bezplatným SPAMfighter pro soukromé uživatele.
                                > Až doposud mě ušetřil příjmu 1596 spam-emailů.
                                > Platící uživatelé tuto zprávu ve svých e-mailech nedostavají.
                                > Stáhněte si zadarmo SPAMfighter zde: www.spamfighter.com/lcs
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.