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Somebody's something's

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  • Matej Klimes
    A quick ceck with native speakers please, when a brand is somebody s something , (Hill s Science pet food in this case), can I use Hill s Science s cat food
    Message 1 of 23 , Jan 3, 2010
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      A quick ceck with native speakers please, when a brand is "somebody's something",
      (Hill's Science pet food in this case), can I use "Hill's Science's cat food" etc?

      Thanks a lot

      Matej



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Melvyn
      No problem saying something like my cousin s friend s pet food if that is what the situation requires, but Bird s Eye fish fingers sounds to me like the
      Message 2 of 23 , Jan 3, 2010
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        No problem saying something like "my cousin's friend's pet food" if that is what the situation requires, but "Bird's Eye fish fingers" sounds to me like the standard default way of describing the product - far more common than "Bird's Eye's fish fingers", which I would only use in some special circumstances (e.g. if my primary focus were on the company and I then mentioned their new product).

        In any case I reckon what you are after here is "Hill's Science Diet pet food". Tens of thousands of hits.

        BR

        M.

        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
        >
        > A quick ceck with native speakers please, when a brand is "somebody's something",
        > (Hill's Science pet food in this case), can I use "Hill's Science's cat food" etc?
        >
        > Thanks a lot
        >
        > Matej
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • James Kirchner
        Matej, I used to work on the Hill s Science Diet account at their advertising agency, and we would never have written it that way. I have never seen it
        Message 3 of 23 , Jan 3, 2010
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          Matej, I used to work on the Hill's Science Diet account at their advertising agency, and we would never have written it that way. I have never seen it without the "Diet" after "Science".

          The trademark is "Hill's Science Diet", often shortened to "Science Diet". In English it would be "Hill's Science Diet cat food", or when the Hill's logo is emblazoned all over the piece, just "Science Diet cat food".

          For a non-English language, you'd have to handle it the way you would with any brand name, by putting the trademark after the generic name of the product, such as "krmivo Hill's Science Diet" or "krmivo Science Diet".

          The main thing is that you not add suffixes to anything inside the brand name.

          Jamie

          On Jan 3, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:

          > A quick ceck with native speakers please, when a brand is "somebody's something",
          > (Hill's Science pet food in this case), can I use "Hill's Science's cat food" etc?
          >
          > Thanks a lot
          >
          > Matej
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Matej Klimes
          Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn.. Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody s something s product is grammatically possible? Jamie, They might have changed their
          Message 4 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
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            Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..

            Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
            grammatically possible?

            Jamie, They might have changed their corporate blah blah, the logo says HS
            and the company's called "Hill's Science" - at least in what I'm dealing
            with now.. it's a proposal for a research project involving a new pet food
            concept, so it's about thye company and its (mostly theoretical) products,
            which might or might not be called "Science Diet"... in any case the
            company's name does nopt contain the word "diet", or does it?

            (BTW, their headquarters are now in Czecho and they hired a Czech consumer
            research agency to do a survey for them in England [with English pet owners]
            on the presumption that they'll save... needless to say the Czech
            researchers are making a mess out of it and I don't see any native Brits
            voluntarily discussing pet food on a blog-like forum run by heavy Czecnglish
            speakers..)


            M




            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
            To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:37 AM
            Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's


            > Matej, I used to work on the Hill's Science Diet account at their
            > advertising agency, and we would never have written it that way. I have
            > never seen it without the "Diet" after "Science".
            >
            > The trademark is "Hill's Science Diet", often shortened to "Science Diet".
            > In English it would be "Hill's Science Diet cat food", or when the Hill's
            > logo is emblazoned all over the piece, just "Science Diet cat food".
            >
            > For a non-English language, you'd have to handle it the way you would with
            > any brand name, by putting the trademark after the generic name of the
            > product, such as "krmivo Hill's Science Diet" or "krmivo Science Diet".
            >
            > The main thing is that you not add suffixes to anything inside the brand
            > name.
            >
            > Jamie
            >
            > On Jan 3, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:
            >
            >> A quick ceck with native speakers please, when a brand is "somebody's
            >> something",
            >> (Hill's Science pet food in this case), can I use "Hill's Science's cat
            >> food" etc?
            >>
            >> Thanks a lot
            >>
            >> Matej
            >>
            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Translators' tricks of the trade:
            > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Melvyn
            ... I see no big problem with forms like St Michael s Mount s website or St John s College s magazine and nothing I can find in my grammar books suggests
            Message 5 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
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              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
              >
              > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
              > grammatically possible?

              I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the sort of thing you are asking about.

              As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it out IMHO.

              Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.

              Ugh, groan, contrived.

              M.
            • James Kirchner
              They are a division of Colgate-Palmolive, so their ultimate headquarters is in New York. The corporate name is Hill s Pet Nutrition, Inc. , and that division
              Message 6 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
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                They are a division of Colgate-Palmolive, so their ultimate headquarters is in New York. The corporate name is "Hill's Pet Nutrition, Inc.", and that division is headquartered in Topeka, Kansas, the part of the country were many of those animal-foody, cerealy corporations are based. They may have created some shorter Euro-digestible name for the countries where English is not the native language. Maybe New York or Topeka naïvely moved the European operation to the Czech lands for their own reasons, but the headquarters are still here.

                Anyway, I would not write "Hill's Science's", but use "Hill's Science" as a brand name that can't be altered, so "Hill's Science cat food" or "cat food from Hill's Science", etc.

                Jamie

                On Jan 4, 2010, at 6:02 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:

                > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                >
                > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                > grammatically possible?
                >
                > Jamie, They might have changed their corporate blah blah, the logo says HS
                > and the company's called "Hill's Science" - at least in what I'm dealing
                > with now.. it's a proposal for a research project involving a new pet food
                > concept, so it's about thye company and its (mostly theoretical) products,
                > which might or might not be called "Science Diet"... in any case the
                > company's name does nopt contain the word "diet", or does it?
                >
                > (BTW, their headquarters are now in Czecho and they hired a Czech consumer
                > research agency to do a survey for them in England [with English pet owners]
                > on the presumption that they'll save... needless to say the Czech
                > researchers are making a mess out of it and I don't see any native Brits
                > voluntarily discussing pet food on a blog-like forum run by heavy Czecnglish
                > speakers..)
                >
                >
                > M
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:37 AM
                > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's
                >
                >
                >> Matej, I used to work on the Hill's Science Diet account at their
                >> advertising agency, and we would never have written it that way. I have
                >> never seen it without the "Diet" after "Science".
                >>
                >> The trademark is "Hill's Science Diet", often shortened to "Science Diet".
                >> In English it would be "Hill's Science Diet cat food", or when the Hill's
                >> logo is emblazoned all over the piece, just "Science Diet cat food".
                >>
                >> For a non-English language, you'd have to handle it the way you would with
                >> any brand name, by putting the trademark after the generic name of the
                >> product, such as "krmivo Hill's Science Diet" or "krmivo Science Diet".
                >>
                >> The main thing is that you not add suffixes to anything inside the brand
                >> name.
                >>
                >> Jamie
                >>
                >> On Jan 3, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                >>
                >>> A quick ceck with native speakers please, when a brand is "somebody's
                >>> something",
                >>> (Hill's Science pet food in this case), can I use "Hill's Science's cat
                >>> food" etc?
                >>>
                >>> Thanks a lot
                >>>
                >>> Matej
                >>>
                >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>>
                >>>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> ------------------------------------
                >>
                >> Translators' tricks of the trade:
                >> http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Translators' tricks of the trade:
                > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • Charlie Stanford
                Jamie, I think Melvyn is just making the point that it is perfectly alright to say Hill s Science s cat food is alright but their dog food is a bit stodgy -
                Message 7 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
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                  Jamie, I think Melvyn is just making the point that it is perfectly alright to say "Hill's Science's cat food is alright but their dog food is a bit stodgy" - i.e. when you are using it as a possessive and not as part of the brand name. Also the other examples of double possessives he quotes are absolutely fine - I don't think it is quite as set in stone as you are making out.

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: James Kirchner
                  To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:11 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's



                  They are a division of Colgate-Palmolive, so their ultimate headquarters is in New York. The corporate name is "Hill's Pet Nutrition, Inc.", and that division is headquartered in Topeka, Kansas, the part of the country were many of those animal-foody, cerealy corporations are based. They may have created some shorter Euro-digestible name for the countries where English is not the native language. Maybe New York or Topeka naïvely moved the European operation to the Czech lands for their own reasons, but the headquarters are still here.

                  Anyway, I would not write "Hill's Science's", but use "Hill's Science" as a brand name that can't be altered, so "Hill's Science cat food" or "cat food from Hill's Science", etc.

                  Jamie

                  On Jan 4, 2010, at 6:02 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:

                  > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                  >
                  > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                  > grammatically possible?
                  >
                  > Jamie, They might have changed their corporate blah blah, the logo says HS
                  > and the company's called "Hill's Science" - at least in what I'm dealing
                  > with now.. it's a proposal for a research project involving a new pet food
                  > concept, so it's about thye company and its (mostly theoretical) products,
                  > which might or might not be called "Science Diet"... in any case the
                  > company's name does nopt contain the word "diet", or does it?
                  >
                  > (BTW, their headquarters are now in Czecho and they hired a Czech consumer
                  > research agency to do a survey for them in England [with English pet owners]
                  > on the presumption that they'll save... needless to say the Czech
                  > researchers are making a mess out of it and I don't see any native Brits
                  > voluntarily discussing pet food on a blog-like forum run by heavy Czecnglish
                  > speakers..)
                  >
                  >
                  > M
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                  > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:37 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's
                  >
                  >
                  >> Matej, I used to work on the Hill's Science Diet account at their
                  >> advertising agency, and we would never have written it that way. I have
                  >> never seen it without the "Diet" after "Science".
                  >>
                  >> The trademark is "Hill's Science Diet", often shortened to "Science Diet".
                  >> In English it would be "Hill's Science Diet cat food", or when the Hill's
                  >> logo is emblazoned all over the piece, just "Science Diet cat food".
                  >>
                  >> For a non-English language, you'd have to handle it the way you would with
                  >> any brand name, by putting the trademark after the generic name of the
                  >> product, such as "krmivo Hill's Science Diet" or "krmivo Science Diet".
                  >>
                  >> The main thing is that you not add suffixes to anything inside the brand
                  >> name.
                  >>
                  >> Jamie
                  >>
                  >> On Jan 3, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                  >>
                  >>> A quick ceck with native speakers please, when a brand is "somebody's
                  >>> something",
                  >>> (Hill's Science pet food in this case), can I use "Hill's Science's cat
                  >>> food" etc?
                  >>>
                  >>> Thanks a lot
                  >>>
                  >>> Matej
                  >>>
                  >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> ------------------------------------
                  >>
                  >> Translators' tricks of the trade:
                  >> http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Translators' tricks of the trade:
                  > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >





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                • James Kirchner
                  When you work in an English-speaking advertising agency, those brand names ARE set in stone, and you do everything possible not to disturb them in form or
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
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                    When you work in an English-speaking advertising agency, those brand names ARE set in stone, and you do everything possible not to disturb them in form or appearance. Grammatical rules, for example, would dictate that the plural of Chevy be "Chevies", but that is forbidden in GM advertising materials, and what is written is actually "Chevys", against standard English grammatical rules.

                    Besides the fact that "Hill's Science's cat food" sounds like Czenglish (regardless of what other double sequences of possessives you find in English), it should not be changed, mainly because of this general preference for trademark integrity.

                    You see evidence of this American preference in Czech in bad collocations like "se Skoda". It's ridiculous in Czech, but leaving the 's off in English would not be ridiculous at all, and certainly not as ridiculous (in less familiar trademark collocations) as that sequence of possessives.

                    Jamie

                    On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:28 AM, Charlie Stanford wrote:

                    > Jamie, I think Melvyn is just making the point that it is perfectly alright to say "Hill's Science's cat food is alright but their dog food is a bit stodgy" - i.e. when you are using it as a possessive and not as part of the brand name. Also the other examples of double possessives he quotes are absolutely fine - I don't think it is quite as set in stone as you are making out.
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: James Kirchner
                    > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:11 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's
                    >
                    > They are a division of Colgate-Palmolive, so their ultimate headquarters is in New York. The corporate name is "Hill's Pet Nutrition, Inc.", and that division is headquartered in Topeka, Kansas, the part of the country were many of those animal-foody, cerealy corporations are based. They may have created some shorter Euro-digestible name for the countries where English is not the native language. Maybe New York or Topeka naïvely moved the European operation to the Czech lands for their own reasons, but the headquarters are still here.
                    >
                    > Anyway, I would not write "Hill's Science's", but use "Hill's Science" as a brand name that can't be altered, so "Hill's Science cat food" or "cat food from Hill's Science", etc.
                    >
                    > Jamie
                    >
                    > On Jan 4, 2010, at 6:02 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                    >
                    > > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                    > >
                    > > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                    > > grammatically possible?
                    > >
                    > > Jamie, They might have changed their corporate blah blah, the logo says HS
                    > > and the company's called "Hill's Science" - at least in what I'm dealing
                    > > with now.. it's a proposal for a research project involving a new pet food
                    > > concept, so it's about thye company and its (mostly theoretical) products,
                    > > which might or might not be called "Science Diet"... in any case the
                    > > company's name does nopt contain the word "diet", or does it?
                    > >
                    > > (BTW, their headquarters are now in Czecho and they hired a Czech consumer
                    > > research agency to do a survey for them in England [with English pet owners]
                    > > on the presumption that they'll save... needless to say the Czech
                    > > researchers are making a mess out of it and I don't see any native Brits
                    > > voluntarily discussing pet food on a blog-like forum run by heavy Czecnglish
                    > > speakers..)
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > M
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                    > > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:37 AM
                    > > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >> Matej, I used to work on the Hill's Science Diet account at their
                    > >> advertising agency, and we would never have written it that way. I have
                    > >> never seen it without the "Diet" after "Science".
                    > >>
                    > >> The trademark is "Hill's Science Diet", often shortened to "Science Diet".
                    > >> In English it would be "Hill's Science Diet cat food", or when the Hill's
                    > >> logo is emblazoned all over the piece, just "Science Diet cat food".
                    > >>
                    > >> For a non-English language, you'd have to handle it the way you would with
                    > >> any brand name, by putting the trademark after the generic name of the
                    > >> product, such as "krmivo Hill's Science Diet" or "krmivo Science Diet".
                    > >>
                    > >> The main thing is that you not add suffixes to anything inside the brand
                    > >> name.
                    > >>
                    > >> Jamie
                    > >>
                    > >> On Jan 3, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >>> A quick ceck with native speakers please, when a brand is "somebody's
                    > >>> something",
                    > >>> (Hill's Science pet food in this case), can I use "Hill's Science's cat
                    > >>> food" etc?
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Thanks a lot
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Matej
                    > >>>
                    > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> ------------------------------------
                    > >>
                    > >> Translators' tricks of the trade:
                    > >> http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Translators' tricks of the trade:
                    > > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > --
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                    > Až doposud mě ušetřil příjmu 1596 spam-emailů.
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                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Matej Klimes
                    Thanks again Melvyn, It s very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity: IF
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
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                      Thanks again Melvyn,

                      It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:

                      IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:

                      The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD that be closer to your heart than saying:
                      The potential of Hill's Science new products is...

                      To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a rule without thinking..

                      On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?

                      Thanks

                      Matej


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Melvyn
                      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
                      Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's





                      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                      >
                      > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                      > grammatically possible?

                      I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the sort of thing you are asking about.

                      As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it out IMHO.

                      Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.

                      Ugh, groan, contrived.

                      M.





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Pilucha, Jiri
                      Myslim, ze to je thoroughbred Jirka ________________________________ From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matej
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
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                        Myslim, ze to je thoroughbred
                        Jirka

                        ________________________________
                        From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matej Klimes
                        Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:42 PM
                        To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's



                        Thanks again Melvyn,

                        It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:

                        IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:

                        The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD that be closer to your heart than saying:
                        The potential of Hill's Science new products is...

                        To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a rule without thinking..

                        On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?

                        Thanks

                        Matej

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Melvyn
                        To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
                        Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's

                        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                        >
                        > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                        > grammatically possible?

                        I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the sort of thing you are asking about.

                        As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it out IMHO.

                        Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.

                        Ugh, groan, contrived.

                        M.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • James Kirchner
                        Okay, the first sentence, with Hill s Science s would be grammatically correct, and the second one wouldn t be. However, in that case the advertising agency
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Okay, the first sentence, with "Hill's Science's" would be grammatically correct, and the second one wouldn't be. However, in that case the advertising agency would do some contortion to avoid adding the second 's, such as saying, "The potential of the new products from Hill's Science is..." or completely overhauling the sentence.

                          "Cistokrevny" is definitely "pure-bred". "Pure-breed" (as an adjective) is definitely wrong.

                          According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, you can use the adjectives "pedigreed" (listed first) or "pedigree", but this gets into a mess as to whether there is a piece of paper (i.e., a pedigree) documenting that the animal is pure-bred. My Oxford Concise Dictionary (UK) does not have "pedigree" as an adjective, but only "pedigreed", which fits my sense of the word better than the Webster listing. There's a tendency in the US for people to forget the past-tense suffix on adjectives, resulting in signs in stores that say "CAN POP" or "CAN VEGETABLES", usually in places that would also have a clothing section for "MENS".

                          Jamie

                          On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:

                          > Thanks again Melvyn,
                          >
                          > It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:
                          >
                          > IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:
                          >
                          > The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD that be closer to your heart than saying:
                          > The potential of Hill's Science new products is...
                          >
                          > To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a rule without thinking..
                          >
                          > On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?
                          >
                          > Thanks
                          >
                          > Matej
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Melvyn
                          > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
                          > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                          >
                          > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                          > >
                          > > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                          > > grammatically possible?
                          >
                          > I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the sort of thing you are asking about.
                          >
                          > As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it out IMHO.
                          >
                          > Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.
                          >
                          > Ugh, groan, contrived.
                          >
                          > M.
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Charlie Stanford
                          Hi Matej, Firstly I think we are more inclined to use pedigree in Britain. Secondly (I am answering the wrong way round) from what I can tell the company is
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Matej,

                            Firstly I think we are more inclined to use "pedigree" in Britain.

                            Secondly (I am answering the wrong way round) from what I can tell the company is called Hill's and Science Diet is one of its product lines (as opposed to "Prescription Diet"). You would have to leave the Diet in there (as Jamie said). "Hill's Science Diet's new products", "Hill's Science Diet's biggest seller" etc. would be better, as you assumed. I am afraid that I disagree with Jamie about "Hill's Science Diet cat food", being a brand name set in stone - "cat food" does not form part of the brand name...it is a product type and so if you want to stick an apostrophe in there and say "I prefer Hill's Science Diet's cat food to its dog food" then I don't see why not.

                            Happy New Year
                            Charlie



                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: James Kirchner
                            To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:42 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's



                            When you work in an English-speaking advertising agency, those brand names ARE set in stone, and you do everything possible not to disturb them in form or appearance. Grammatical rules, for example, would dictate that the plural of Chevy be "Chevies", but that is forbidden in GM advertising materials, and what is written is actually "Chevys", against standard English grammatical rules.

                            Besides the fact that "Hill's Science's cat food" sounds like Czenglish (regardless of what other double sequences of possessives you find in English), it should not be changed, mainly because of this general preference for trademark integrity.

                            You see evidence of this American preference in Czech in bad collocations like "se Skoda". It's ridiculous in Czech, but leaving the 's off in English would not be ridiculous at all, and certainly not as ridiculous (in less familiar trademark collocations) as that sequence of possessives.

                            Jamie

                            On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:28 AM, Charlie Stanford wrote:

                            > Jamie, I think Melvyn is just making the point that it is perfectly alright to say "Hill's Science's cat food is alright but their dog food is a bit stodgy" - i.e. when you are using it as a possessive and not as part of the brand name. Also the other examples of double possessives he quotes are absolutely fine - I don't think it is quite as set in stone as you are making out.
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: James Kirchner
                            > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:11 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's
                            >
                            > They are a division of Colgate-Palmolive, so their ultimate headquarters is in New York. The corporate name is "Hill's Pet Nutrition, Inc.", and that division is headquartered in Topeka, Kansas, the part of the country were many of those animal-foody, cerealy corporations are based. They may have created some shorter Euro-digestible name for the countries where English is not the native language. Maybe New York or Topeka naïvely moved the European operation to the Czech lands for their own reasons, but the headquarters are still here.
                            >
                            > Anyway, I would not write "Hill's Science's", but use "Hill's Science" as a brand name that can't be altered, so "Hill's Science cat food" or "cat food from Hill's Science", etc.
                            >
                            > Jamie
                            >
                            > On Jan 4, 2010, at 6:02 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                            >
                            > > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                            > >
                            > > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                            > > grammatically possible?
                            > >
                            > > Jamie, They might have changed their corporate blah blah, the logo says HS
                            > > and the company's called "Hill's Science" - at least in what I'm dealing
                            > > with now.. it's a proposal for a research project involving a new pet food
                            > > concept, so it's about thye company and its (mostly theoretical) products,
                            > > which might or might not be called "Science Diet"... in any case the
                            > > company's name does nopt contain the word "diet", or does it?
                            > >
                            > > (BTW, their headquarters are now in Czecho and they hired a Czech consumer
                            > > research agency to do a survey for them in England [with English pet owners]
                            > > on the presumption that they'll save... needless to say the Czech
                            > > researchers are making a mess out of it and I don't see any native Brits
                            > > voluntarily discussing pet food on a blog-like forum run by heavy Czecnglish
                            > > speakers..)
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > M
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                            > > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:37 AM
                            > > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >> Matej, I used to work on the Hill's Science Diet account at their
                            > >> advertising agency, and we would never have written it that way. I have
                            > >> never seen it without the "Diet" after "Science".
                            > >>
                            > >> The trademark is "Hill's Science Diet", often shortened to "Science Diet".
                            > >> In English it would be "Hill's Science Diet cat food", or when the Hill's
                            > >> logo is emblazoned all over the piece, just "Science Diet cat food".
                            > >>
                            > >> For a non-English language, you'd have to handle it the way you would with
                            > >> any brand name, by putting the trademark after the generic name of the
                            > >> product, such as "krmivo Hill's Science Diet" or "krmivo Science Diet".
                            > >>
                            > >> The main thing is that you not add suffixes to anything inside the brand
                            > >> name.
                            > >>
                            > >> Jamie
                            > >>
                            > >> On Jan 3, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                            > >>
                            > >>> A quick ceck with native speakers please, when a brand is "somebody's
                            > >>> something",
                            > >>> (Hill's Science pet food in this case), can I use "Hill's Science's cat
                            > >>> food" etc?
                            > >>>
                            > >>> Thanks a lot
                            > >>>
                            > >>> Matej
                            > >>>
                            > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >>>
                            > >>>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> ------------------------------------
                            > >>
                            > >> Translators' tricks of the trade:
                            > >> http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ------------------------------------
                            > >
                            > > Translators' tricks of the trade:
                            > > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > --
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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                            Až doposud mě ušetřil příjmu 1596 spam-emailů.
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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • James Kirchner
                            ... You misunderstood me, Charlie. I said Hill s Science Diet is a brand name set in stone, not the whole thing with cat food included. You re right.
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
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                              On Jan 4, 2010, at 11:09 AM, Charlie Stanford wrote:

                              > I am afraid that I disagree with Jamie about "Hill's Science Diet cat food", being a brand name set in stone - "cat food" does not form part of the brand name...it is a product type

                              You misunderstood me, Charlie. I said "Hill's Science Diet" is a brand name set in stone, not the whole thing with "cat food" included. You're right. It's a product type in that case.

                              > and so if you want to stick an apostrophe in there and say "I prefer Hill's Science Diet's cat food to its dog food" then I don't see why not.

                              It would never appear in their official marketing or advertising publications. You could do it in journalism or on the street, where you don't have a client breathing down your neck about the integrity of the trademark.

                              Jamie



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • James Kirchner
                              Only for horses. Never for dogs and cats. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Only for horses. Never for dogs and cats.

                                On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:47 AM, Pilucha, Jiri wrote:

                                >
                                > Myslim, ze to je thoroughbred
                                > Jirka
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matej Klimes
                                > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:42 PM
                                > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                                >
                                > Thanks again Melvyn,
                                >
                                > It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:
                                >
                                > IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:
                                >
                                > The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD that be closer to your heart than saying:
                                > The potential of Hill's Science new products is...
                                >
                                > To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a rule without thinking..
                                >
                                > On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?
                                >
                                > Thanks
                                >
                                > Matej
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Melvyn
                                > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
                                > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                                >
                                > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                                > >
                                > > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                                > > grammatically possible?
                                >
                                > I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the sort of thing you are asking about.
                                >
                                > As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it out IMHO.
                                >
                                > Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.
                                >
                                > Ugh, groan, contrived.
                                >
                                > M.
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Pilucha, Jiri
                                Yes, that s why I immediately recalled the email but apparently the recall failed. Thanks for the comment Jiri ... From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Yes, that's why I immediately recalled the email but apparently the recall failed. Thanks for the comment
                                  Jiri

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Kirchner
                                  Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:39 PM
                                  To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's

                                  Only for horses. Never for dogs and cats.

                                  On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:47 AM, Pilucha, Jiri wrote:

                                  >
                                  > Myslim, ze to je thoroughbred
                                  > Jirka
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matej Klimes
                                  > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:42 PM
                                  > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                                  >
                                  > Thanks again Melvyn,
                                  >
                                  > It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:
                                  >
                                  > IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:
                                  >
                                  > The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD that be closer to your heart than saying:
                                  > The potential of Hill's Science new products is...
                                  >
                                  > To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a rule without thinking..
                                  >
                                  > On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?
                                  >
                                  > Thanks
                                  >
                                  > Matej
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Melvyn
                                  > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
                                  > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                                  >
                                  > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                                  > >
                                  > > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                                  > > grammatically possible?
                                  >
                                  > I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the sort of thing you are asking about.
                                  >
                                  > As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it out IMHO.
                                  >
                                  > Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.
                                  >
                                  > Ugh, groan, contrived.
                                  >
                                  > M.
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                  ------------------------------------

                                  Translators' tricks of the trade:
                                  http://czeng.wetpaint.com/




                                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                                • Charlie Stanford
                                  I have never heard pedigreed being used with a d on the end.... perhaps that is an American thing. We (Brits) would use pedigree rather than pure-bred. ...
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I have never heard pedigreed being used with a d on the end.... perhaps that
                                    is an American thing. We (Brits) would use pedigree rather than pure-bred.

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                                    To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:03 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's


                                    > Okay, the first sentence, with "Hill's Science's" would be grammatically
                                    > correct, and the second one wouldn't be. However, in that case the
                                    > advertising agency would do some contortion to avoid adding the second 's,
                                    > such as saying, "The potential of the new products from Hill's Science
                                    > is..." or completely overhauling the sentence.
                                    >
                                    > "Cistokrevny" is definitely "pure-bred". "Pure-breed" (as an adjective)
                                    > is definitely wrong.
                                    >
                                    > According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, you can use the adjectives
                                    > "pedigreed" (listed first) or "pedigree", but this gets into a mess as to
                                    > whether there is a piece of paper (i.e., a pedigree) documenting that the
                                    > animal is pure-bred. My Oxford Concise Dictionary (UK) does not have
                                    > "pedigree" as an adjective, but only "pedigreed", which fits my sense of
                                    > the word better than the Webster listing. There's a tendency in the US
                                    > for people to forget the past-tense suffix on adjectives, resulting in
                                    > signs in stores that say "CAN POP" or "CAN VEGETABLES", usually in places
                                    > that would also have a clothing section for "MENS".
                                    >
                                    > Jamie
                                    >
                                    > On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                                    >
                                    >> Thanks again Melvyn,
                                    >>
                                    >> It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to
                                    >> ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:
                                    >>
                                    >> IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves
                                    >> Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a
                                    >> sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:
                                    >>
                                    >> The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD
                                    >> that be closer to your heart than saying:
                                    >> The potential of Hill's Science new products is...
                                    >>
                                    >> To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a
                                    >> rule without thinking..
                                    >>
                                    >> On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for
                                    >> "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various
                                    >> combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech
                                    >> clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is
                                    >> she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?
                                    >>
                                    >> Thanks
                                    >>
                                    >> Matej
                                    >>
                                    >> ----- Original Message -----
                                    >> From: Melvyn
                                    >> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    >> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
                                    >> Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                                    >>
                                    >> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
                                    >> >
                                    >> > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                                    >> >
                                    >> > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                                    >> > grammatically possible?
                                    >>
                                    >> I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or
                                    >> "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books
                                    >> suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark
                                    >> St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the
                                    >> sort of thing you are asking about.
                                    >>
                                    >> As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the
                                    >> second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you
                                    >> any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it
                                    >> out IMHO.
                                    >>
                                    >> Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is
                                    >> not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have
                                    >> three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.
                                    >>
                                    >> Ugh, groan, contrived.
                                    >>
                                    >> M.
                                    >>
                                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Translators' tricks of the trade:
                                    > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


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                                  • James Kirchner
                                    Look in your Oxford dictionary.
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
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                                      Look in your Oxford dictionary.

                                      On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Charlie Stanford wrote:

                                      > I have never heard pedigreed being used with a d on the end.... perhaps that
                                      > is an American thing. We (Brits) would use pedigree rather than pure-bred.
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                                      > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:03 PM
                                      > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >> Okay, the first sentence, with "Hill's Science's" would be grammatically
                                      >> correct, and the second one wouldn't be. However, in that case the
                                      >> advertising agency would do some contortion to avoid adding the second 's,
                                      >> such as saying, "The potential of the new products from Hill's Science
                                      >> is..." or completely overhauling the sentence.
                                      >>
                                      >> "Cistokrevny" is definitely "pure-bred". "Pure-breed" (as an adjective)
                                      >> is definitely wrong.
                                      >>
                                      >> According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, you can use the adjectives
                                      >> "pedigreed" (listed first) or "pedigree", but this gets into a mess as to
                                      >> whether there is a piece of paper (i.e., a pedigree) documenting that the
                                      >> animal is pure-bred. My Oxford Concise Dictionary (UK) does not have
                                      >> "pedigree" as an adjective, but only "pedigreed", which fits my sense of
                                      >> the word better than the Webster listing. There's a tendency in the US
                                      >> for people to forget the past-tense suffix on adjectives, resulting in
                                      >> signs in stores that say "CAN POP" or "CAN VEGETABLES", usually in places
                                      >> that would also have a clothing section for "MENS".
                                      >>
                                      >> Jamie
                                      >>
                                      >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >>> Thanks again Melvyn,
                                      >>>
                                      >>> It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to
                                      >>> ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:
                                      >>>
                                      >>> IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves
                                      >>> Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a
                                      >>> sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:
                                      >>>
                                      >>> The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD
                                      >>> that be closer to your heart than saying:
                                      >>> The potential of Hill's Science new products is...
                                      >>>
                                      >>> To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a
                                      >>> rule without thinking..
                                      >>>
                                      >>> On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for
                                      >>> "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various
                                      >>> combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech
                                      >>> clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is
                                      >>> she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Thanks
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Matej
                                      >>>
                                      >>> ----- Original Message -----
                                      >>> From: Melvyn
                                      >>> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      >>> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
                                      >>> Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                                      >>>
                                      >>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                                      >>>> grammatically possible?
                                      >>>
                                      >>> I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or
                                      >>> "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books
                                      >>> suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark
                                      >>> St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the
                                      >>> sort of thing you are asking about.
                                      >>>
                                      >>> As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the
                                      >>> second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you
                                      >>> any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it
                                      >>> out IMHO.
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is
                                      >>> not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have
                                      >>> three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Ugh, groan, contrived.
                                      >>>
                                      >>> M.
                                      >>>
                                      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> ------------------------------------
                                      >>
                                      >> Translators' tricks of the trade:
                                      >> http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --
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                                      > A3 doposud mi u1etoil poíjmu 1596 spam-emailu.
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                                      >
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                                      >
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                                      > ------------------------------------
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                                    • Josef Hlavac
                                      This is the Internet... once you let something out, there s no way to get it back in :) Josef
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        This is the Internet... once you let something out, there's no way to
                                        get it back in :)

                                        Josef

                                        Pilucha, Jiri wrote:
                                        > Yes, that's why I immediately recalled the email but apparently the recall failed. Thanks for the comment
                                        > Jiri
                                        >
                                      • Charlie Stanford
                                        Maybe it says it in the Oxford dictionary but I have still never heard pedigree being used with a d on the end for any breed of animal. I am an English
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Maybe it says it in the Oxford dictionary but I have still never heard pedigree being used with a d on the end for any breed of animal. I am an English native-speaker from a farming background and am not that green around the ears but maybe I have not been listening carefully enough.... Perhaps people say it but not anyone I have ever come across.
                                          Incidentally I think you will find that "thoroughbred" horses are not a pure breed of a certain type of horse but a specific breed of (originally crossbred)racehorse. So you can have a "pure Arab stallion" but a "Thoroughbred Arab stallion" is actually a cross between a Thoroughbred and an Arab.


                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: James Kirchner
                                          To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 7:32 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's



                                          Look in your Oxford dictionary.

                                          On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Charlie Stanford wrote:

                                          > I have never heard pedigreed being used with a d on the end.... perhaps that
                                          > is an American thing. We (Brits) would use pedigree rather than pure-bred.
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                                          > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:03 PM
                                          > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >> Okay, the first sentence, with "Hill's Science's" would be grammatically
                                          >> correct, and the second one wouldn't be. However, in that case the
                                          >> advertising agency would do some contortion to avoid adding the second 's,
                                          >> such as saying, "The potential of the new products from Hill's Science
                                          >> is..." or completely overhauling the sentence.
                                          >>
                                          >> "Cistokrevny" is definitely "pure-bred". "Pure-breed" (as an adjective)
                                          >> is definitely wrong.
                                          >>
                                          >> According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, you can use the adjectives
                                          >> "pedigreed" (listed first) or "pedigree", but this gets into a mess as to
                                          >> whether there is a piece of paper (i.e., a pedigree) documenting that the
                                          >> animal is pure-bred. My Oxford Concise Dictionary (UK) does not have
                                          >> "pedigree" as an adjective, but only "pedigreed", which fits my sense of
                                          >> the word better than the Webster listing. There's a tendency in the US
                                          >> for people to forget the past-tense suffix on adjectives, resulting in
                                          >> signs in stores that say "CAN POP" or "CAN VEGETABLES", usually in places
                                          >> that would also have a clothing section for "MENS".
                                          >>
                                          >> Jamie
                                          >>
                                          >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                                          >>
                                          >>> Thanks again Melvyn,
                                          >>>
                                          >>> It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to
                                          >>> ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:
                                          >>>
                                          >>> IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves
                                          >>> Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a
                                          >>> sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:
                                          >>>
                                          >>> The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD
                                          >>> that be closer to your heart than saying:
                                          >>> The potential of Hill's Science new products is...
                                          >>>
                                          >>> To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a
                                          >>> rule without thinking..
                                          >>>
                                          >>> On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for
                                          >>> "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various
                                          >>> combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech
                                          >>> clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is
                                          >>> she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?
                                          >>>
                                          >>> Thanks
                                          >>>
                                          >>> Matej
                                          >>>
                                          >>> ----- Original Message -----
                                          >>> From: Melvyn
                                          >>> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          >>> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
                                          >>> Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                                          >>>
                                          >>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>> Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>> Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                                          >>>> grammatically possible?
                                          >>>
                                          >>> I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or
                                          >>> "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books
                                          >>> suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark
                                          >>> St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the
                                          >>> sort of thing you are asking about.
                                          >>>
                                          >>> As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the
                                          >>> second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you
                                          >>> any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it
                                          >>> out IMHO.
                                          >>>
                                          >>> Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is
                                          >>> not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have
                                          >>> three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.
                                          >>>
                                          >>> Ugh, groan, contrived.
                                          >>>
                                          >>> M.
                                          >>>
                                          >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >>>
                                          >>>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >> ------------------------------------
                                          >>
                                          >> Translators' tricks of the trade:
                                          >> http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --
                                          > Jsem chránin bezplatným SPAMfighter pro soukromé u3ivatele.
                                          > A3 doposud mi u1etoil poíjmu 1596 spam-emailu.
                                          > Platící u3ivatelé tuto zprávu ve svých e-mailech nedostavají.
                                          > Stáhnite si zadarmo SPAMfighter zde: www.spamfighter.com/lcs
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          > Translators' tricks of the trade:
                                          > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >





                                          --
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                                          Až doposud mě ušetřil příjmu 1596 spam-emailů.
                                          Platící uživatelé tuto zprávu ve svých e-mailech nedostavají.
                                          Stáhněte si zadarmo SPAMfighter zde: www.spamfighter.com/lcs


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Sabina Králová
                                          I am not a native speaker but I breed dogs, ride horses etc. Charlie is right. I have always seen pedigree dogs and never pedigreed . Sabina ... From:
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I am not a native speaker but I breed dogs, ride horses etc. Charlie is right. I have always seen "pedigree dogs" and never "pedigreed".
                                            Sabina
                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Charlie Stanford
                                            Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 8:11 PM
                                            To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [SPAM] Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's



                                            Maybe it says it in the Oxford dictionary but I have still never heard pedigree being used with a d on the end for any breed of animal. I am an English native-speaker from a farming background and am not that green around the ears but maybe I have not been listening carefully enough.... Perhaps people say it but not anyone I have ever come across.
                                            Incidentally I think you will find that "thoroughbred" horses are not a pure breed of a certain type of horse but a specific breed of (originally crossbred)racehorse. So you can have a "pure Arab stallion" but a "Thoroughbred Arab stallion" is actually a cross between a Thoroughbred and an Arab.


                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: James Kirchner
                                            To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 7:32 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's

                                            Look in your Oxford dictionary.

                                            On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Charlie Stanford wrote:

                                            > I have never heard pedigreed being used with a d on the end.... perhaps that
                                            > is an American thing. We (Brits) would use pedigree rather than pure-bred.
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                                            > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                            > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:03 PM
                                            > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >> Okay, the first sentence, with "Hill's Science's" would be grammatically
                                            >> correct, and the second one wouldn't be. However, in that case the
                                            >> advertising agency would do some contortion to avoid adding the second 's,
                                            >> such as saying, "The potential of the new products from Hill's Science
                                            >> is..." or completely overhauling the sentence.
                                            >>
                                            >> "Cistokrevny" is definitely "pure-bred". "Pure-breed" (as an adjective)
                                            >> is definitely wrong.
                                            >>
                                            >> According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, you can use the adjectives
                                            >> "pedigreed" (listed first) or "pedigree", but this gets into a mess as to
                                            >> whether there is a piece of paper (i.e., a pedigree) documenting that the
                                            >> animal is pure-bred. My Oxford Concise Dictionary (UK) does not have
                                            >> "pedigree" as an adjective, but only "pedigreed", which fits my sense of
                                            >> the word better than the Webster listing. There's a tendency in the US
                                            >> for people to forget the past-tense suffix on adjectives, resulting in
                                            >> signs in stores that say "CAN POP" or "CAN VEGETABLES", usually in places
                                            >> that would also have a clothing section for "MENS".
                                            >>
                                            >> Jamie
                                            >>
                                            >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                                            >>
                                            >>> Thanks again Melvyn,
                                            >>>
                                            >>> It's very cold out here, my brain is in winter mode, sorry for having to
                                            >>> ask twice - and possibly three times, just out of curiosity:
                                            >>>
                                            >>> IF we presume the company's called Hill's Science (they call themselves
                                            >>> Hills Science and other things in various markets)... AND you had a
                                            >>> sentence about PROPOSED (theoretical) products, going something like:
                                            >>>
                                            >>> The potential of Hill's Science's new products is.... whatever - WOULD
                                            >>> that be closer to your heart than saying:
                                            >>> The potential of Hill's Science new products is...
                                            >>>
                                            >>> To me, the first sounds more appropriate, but I might just be applying a
                                            >>> rule without thinking..
                                            >>>
                                            >>> On another note, does anyone have an opinion on which term is best for
                                            >>> "cistokrevny/a"? Plenty of relevant hits for pure-bred and various
                                            >>> combinations thereof (not pure breed as some Russian sites and my Czech
                                            >>> clients seem to think), but I remember someone asking about a cat: .."is
                                            >>> she pedigree?" Could the later be more US ENG? Or just less formal?
                                            >>>
                                            >>> Thanks
                                            >>>
                                            >>> Matej
                                            >>>
                                            >>> ----- Original Message -----
                                            >>> From: Melvyn
                                            >>> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                            >>> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:39 PM
                                            >>> Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Somebody's something's
                                            >>>
                                            >>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...> wrote:
                                            >>>>
                                            >>>> Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                                            >>>>
                                            >>>> Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                                            >>>> grammatically possible?
                                            >>>
                                            >>> I see no big problem with forms like "St Michael's Mount's website" or
                                            >>> "St John's College's magazine" and nothing I can find in my grammar books
                                            >>> suggests they should be banned. "Prince Charles to unveil plaque to mark
                                            >>> St Paul's School's 500th anniversary". Sounds fine to me - if that is the
                                            >>> sort of thing you are asking about.
                                            >>>
                                            >>> As I was saying with "Bird's Eye('s) fish fingers", the form without the
                                            >>> second 's is much more common - the second 's does not usually give you
                                            >>> any added value/meaning, so more often than not you would just leave it
                                            >>> out IMHO.
                                            >>>
                                            >>> Not that I consider myself an arbiter of what is grammatical and what is
                                            >>> not, you understand. Lots of grey areas. Any two grammar books will have
                                            >>> three opinions. Just Melvyn's halfpenny's worth.
                                            >>>
                                            >>> Ugh, groan, contrived.
                                            >>>
                                            >>> M.
                                            >>>
                                            >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >>>
                                            >>>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >> ------------------------------------
                                            >>
                                            >> Translators' tricks of the trade:
                                            >> http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --
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                                            > A3 doposud mi u1etoil poíjmu 1596 spam-emailu.
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                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ------------------------------------
                                            >
                                            > Translators' tricks of the trade:
                                            > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >

                                            --
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                                            Až doposud mě ušetřil příjmu 1596 spam-emailů.
                                            Platící uživatelé tuto zprávu ve svých e-mailech nedostavají.
                                            Stáhněte si zadarmo SPAMfighter zde: www.spamfighter.com/lcs

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Matej Klimes
                                            Sorry for having set off another heated debate... just wanted to check.. I think the (European) headquarters which are in Czecho now are having their effect on
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Sorry for having set off another heated debate... just wanted to check..

                                              I think the (European) headquarters which are in Czecho now are having their effect on the entire corporation, in all I've seen they're calling themselves "Hill's Science" (complete with the inevitable "company" tacked onto the end... now there's a brand name set in stone :)

                                              My reasoning was that if the brand name was something simple (such as Nike), nobody (not even a copywriter) would have a problem saying "Nike's new supersonic trainers.."

                                              Anyway, there's far more complicated stuff in that project, thanks for the pedigree explanation too, pure bred seemed OK and had enough hits, but I had a suspicion it might not be what dog-breeding people use..

                                              M




                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: James Kirchner
                                              To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:42 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's



                                              When you work in an English-speaking advertising agency, those brand names ARE set in stone, and you do everything possible not to disturb them in form or appearance. Grammatical rules, for example, would dictate that the plural of Chevy be "Chevies", but that is forbidden in GM advertising materials, and what is written is actually "Chevys", against standard English grammatical rules.

                                              Besides the fact that "Hill's Science's cat food" sounds like Czenglish (regardless of what other double sequences of possessives you find in English), it should not be changed, mainly because of this general preference for trademark integrity.

                                              You see evidence of this American preference in Czech in bad collocations like "se Skoda". It's ridiculous in Czech, but leaving the 's off in English would not be ridiculous at all, and certainly not as ridiculous (in less familiar trademark collocations) as that sequence of possessives.

                                              Jamie

                                              On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:28 AM, Charlie Stanford wrote:

                                              > Jamie, I think Melvyn is just making the point that it is perfectly alright to say "Hill's Science's cat food is alright but their dog food is a bit stodgy" - i.e. when you are using it as a possessive and not as part of the brand name. Also the other examples of double possessives he quotes are absolutely fine - I don't think it is quite as set in stone as you are making out.
                                              >
                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > From: James Kirchner
                                              > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:11 PM
                                              > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's
                                              >
                                              > They are a division of Colgate-Palmolive, so their ultimate headquarters is in New York. The corporate name is "Hill's Pet Nutrition, Inc.", and that division is headquartered in Topeka, Kansas, the part of the country were many of those animal-foody, cerealy corporations are based. They may have created some shorter Euro-digestible name for the countries where English is not the native language. Maybe New York or Topeka naïvely moved the European operation to the Czech lands for their own reasons, but the headquarters are still here.
                                              >
                                              > Anyway, I would not write "Hill's Science's", but use "Hill's Science" as a brand name that can't be altered, so "Hill's Science cat food" or "cat food from Hill's Science", etc.
                                              >
                                              > Jamie
                                              >
                                              > On Jan 4, 2010, at 6:02 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                                              > >
                                              > > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                                              > > grammatically possible?
                                              > >
                                              > > Jamie, They might have changed their corporate blah blah, the logo says HS
                                              > > and the company's called "Hill's Science" - at least in what I'm dealing
                                              > > with now.. it's a proposal for a research project involving a new pet food
                                              > > concept, so it's about thye company and its (mostly theoretical) products,
                                              > > which might or might not be called "Science Diet"... in any case the
                                              > > company's name does nopt contain the word "diet", or does it?
                                              > >
                                              > > (BTW, their headquarters are now in Czecho and they hired a Czech consumer
                                              > > research agency to do a survey for them in England [with English pet owners]
                                              > > on the presumption that they'll save... needless to say the Czech
                                              > > researchers are making a mess out of it and I don't see any native Brits
                                              > > voluntarily discussing pet food on a blog-like forum run by heavy Czecnglish
                                              > > speakers..)
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > M
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                                              > > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                              > > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:37 AM
                                              > > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >> Matej, I used to work on the Hill's Science Diet account at their
                                              > >> advertising agency, and we would never have written it that way. I have
                                              > >> never seen it without the "Diet" after "Science".
                                              > >>
                                              > >> The trademark is "Hill's Science Diet", often shortened to "Science Diet".
                                              > >> In English it would be "Hill's Science Diet cat food", or when the Hill's
                                              > >> logo is emblazoned all over the piece, just "Science Diet cat food".
                                              > >>
                                              > >> For a non-English language, you'd have to handle it the way you would with
                                              > >> any brand name, by putting the trademark after the generic name of the
                                              > >> product, such as "krmivo Hill's Science Diet" or "krmivo Science Diet".
                                              > >>
                                              > >> The main thing is that you not add suffixes to anything inside the brand
                                              > >> name.
                                              > >>
                                              > >> Jamie
                                              > >>
                                              > >> On Jan 3, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                                              > >>
                                              > >>> A quick ceck with native speakers please, when a brand is "somebody's
                                              > >>> something",
                                              > >>> (Hill's Science pet food in this case), can I use "Hill's Science's cat
                                              > >>> food" etc?
                                              > >>>
                                              > >>> Thanks a lot
                                              > >>>
                                              > >>> Matej
                                              > >>>
                                              > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > >>>
                                              > >>>
                                              > >>
                                              > >>
                                              > >>
                                              > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > >>
                                              > >>
                                              > >>
                                              > >> ------------------------------------
                                              > >>
                                              > >> Translators' tricks of the trade:
                                              > >> http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                                              > >>
                                              > >>
                                              > >>
                                              > >>
                                              > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              > >>
                                              > >>
                                              > >>
                                              > >>
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > ------------------------------------
                                              > >
                                              > > Translators' tricks of the trade:
                                              > > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > --
                                              > Jsem chráněn bezplatným SPAMfighter pro soukromé uživatele.
                                              > Až doposud mě ušetřil příjmu 1596 spam-emailů.
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                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • James Kirchner
                                              That s right. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                That's right.

                                                On Jan 4, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:

                                                > My reasoning was that if the brand name was something simple (such as Nike), nobody (not even a copywriter) would have a problem saying "Nike's new supersonic trainers.."



                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Pilucha, Jiri
                                                I don’t know about Nike, but as regards the company that I work for (and whose name, too, is “something simple”) – attaching an apostrophe to the
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Jan 4, 2010
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  I don’t know about Nike, but as regards the company that I work for (and whose name, too, is “something simple”) – attaching an apostrophe to the company name is regarded as infringement of the registered trade name and violation of corporate identity (although, in practice, a lawsuit about an apostrophe is rather improbable). (I do know about a company, though, that filed a lawsuit against a bidder who used their logo in low-resolution poor quality, which only goes to show you that one never knows...)

                                                  J



                                                  ________________________________
                                                  From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matej Klimes
                                                  Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 9:01 PM
                                                  To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's



                                                  Sorry for having set off another heated debate... just wanted to check..

                                                  I think the (European) headquarters which are in Czecho now are having their effect on the entire corporation, in all I've seen they're calling themselves "Hill's Science" (complete with the inevitable "company" tacked onto the end... now there's a brand name set in stone :)

                                                  My reasoning was that if the brand name was something simple (such as Nike), nobody (not even a copywriter) would have a problem saying "Nike's new supersonic trainers.."

                                                  Anyway, there's far more complicated stuff in that project, thanks for the pedigree explanation too, pure bred seemed OK and had enough hits, but I had a suspicion it might not be what dog-breeding people use..

                                                  M

                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: James Kirchner
                                                  To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:42 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's

                                                  When you work in an English-speaking advertising agency, those brand names ARE set in stone, and you do everything possible not to disturb them in form or appearance. Grammatical rules, for example, would dictate that the plural of Chevy be "Chevies", but that is forbidden in GM advertising materials, and what is written is actually "Chevys", against standard English grammatical rules.

                                                  Besides the fact that "Hill's Science's cat food" sounds like Czenglish (regardless of what other double sequences of possessives you find in English), it should not be changed, mainly because of this general preference for trademark integrity.

                                                  You see evidence of this American preference in Czech in bad collocations like "se Skoda". It's ridiculous in Czech, but leaving the 's off in English would not be ridiculous at all, and certainly not as ridiculous (in less familiar trademark collocations) as that sequence of possessives.

                                                  Jamie

                                                  On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:28 AM, Charlie Stanford wrote:

                                                  > Jamie, I think Melvyn is just making the point that it is perfectly alright to say "Hill's Science's cat food is alright but their dog food is a bit stodgy" - i.e. when you are using it as a possessive and not as part of the brand name. Also the other examples of double possessives he quotes are absolutely fine - I don't think it is quite as set in stone as you are making out.
                                                  >
                                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                  > From: James Kirchner
                                                  > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:11 PM
                                                  > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's
                                                  >
                                                  > They are a division of Colgate-Palmolive, so their ultimate headquarters is in New York. The corporate name is "Hill's Pet Nutrition, Inc.", and that division is headquartered in Topeka, Kansas, the part of the country were many of those animal-foody, cerealy corporations are based. They may have created some shorter Euro-digestible name for the countries where English is not the native language. Maybe New York or Topeka naïvely moved the European operation to the Czech lands for their own reasons, but the headquarters are still here.
                                                  >
                                                  > Anyway, I would not write "Hill's Science's", but use "Hill's Science" as a brand name that can't be altered, so "Hill's Science cat food" or "cat food from Hill's Science", etc.
                                                  >
                                                  > Jamie
                                                  >
                                                  > On Jan 4, 2010, at 6:02 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > Thanks, Jamie and Melvyn..
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Melvyn, if I understand correctly Somebody's something's product is
                                                  > > grammatically possible?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Jamie, They might have changed their corporate blah blah, the logo says HS
                                                  > > and the company's called "Hill's Science" - at least in what I'm dealing
                                                  > > with now.. it's a proposal for a research project involving a new pet food
                                                  > > concept, so it's about thye company and its (mostly theoretical) products,
                                                  > > which might or might not be called "Science Diet"... in any case the
                                                  > > company's name does nopt contain the word "diet", or does it?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > (BTW, their headquarters are now in Czecho and they hired a Czech consumer
                                                  > > research agency to do a survey for them in England [with English pet owners]
                                                  > > on the presumption that they'll save... needless to say the Czech
                                                  > > researchers are making a mess out of it and I don't see any native Brits
                                                  > > voluntarily discussing pet food on a blog-like forum run by heavy Czecnglish
                                                  > > speakers..)
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > M
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                  > > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...<mailto:jpklists%40sbcglobal.net>>
                                                  > > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>>
                                                  > > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:37 AM
                                                  > > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Somebody's something's
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >> Matej, I used to work on the Hill's Science Diet account at their
                                                  > >> advertising agency, and we would never have written it that way. I have
                                                  > >> never seen it without the "Diet" after "Science".
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> The trademark is "Hill's Science Diet", often shortened to "Science Diet".
                                                  > >> In English it would be "Hill's Science Diet cat food", or when the Hill's
                                                  > >> logo is emblazoned all over the piece, just "Science Diet cat food".
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> For a non-English language, you'd have to handle it the way you would with
                                                  > >> any brand name, by putting the trademark after the generic name of the
                                                  > >> product, such as "krmivo Hill's Science Diet" or "krmivo Science Diet".
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> The main thing is that you not add suffixes to anything inside the brand
                                                  > >> name.
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> Jamie
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> On Jan 3, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>> A quick ceck with native speakers please, when a brand is "somebody's
                                                  > >>> something",
                                                  > >>> (Hill's Science pet food in this case), can I use "Hill's Science's cat
                                                  > >>> food" etc?
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>> Thanks a lot
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>> Matej
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> ------------------------------------
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> Translators' tricks of the trade:
                                                  > >> http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > ------------------------------------
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Translators' tricks of the trade:
                                                  > > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > --
                                                  > Jsem chráněn bezplatným SPAMfighter pro soukromé uživatele.
                                                  > Až doposud mě ušetřil příjmu 1596 spam-emailů.
                                                  > Platící uživatelé tuto zprávu ve svých e-mailech nedostavají.
                                                  > Stáhněte si zadarmo SPAMfighter zde: www.spamfighter.com/lcs
                                                  >
                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                  >

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