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Ministerstvo skolstvi a narodni osveta

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  • coilinoc
    Hi there! I have a quick question. Do you think the name of this ministry (which apparently existed in the 1930s) could be satisfactorily rendered in English
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 20, 2009
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      Hi there!
      I have a quick question. Do you think the name of this ministry (which apparently existed in the 1930s) could be satisfactorily rendered in English as simply Ministry of Education? "Ministry of Education and National Enlightenment" sounds a bit ridiculous to me...
      MTIA
      Coilin
    • James Kirchner
      Many things in the 1930s sounded ridiculous, so why not go with it? Jamie ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 15 , Sep 20, 2009
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        Many things in the 1930s sounded ridiculous, so why not go with it?

        Jamie

        On Sep 20, 2009, at 7:57 AM, coilinoc wrote:

        > Hi there!
        > I have a quick question. Do you think the name of this ministry
        > (which apparently existed in the 1930s) could be satisfactorily
        > rendered in English as simply Ministry of Education? "Ministry of
        > Education and National Enlightenment" sounds a bit ridiculous to me...
        > MTIA
        > Coilin
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Matej Klimes
        I think it could, Coilin... If I m not mistaken, it s still officially called Ministerstvo skolstvi, mladeze a telovychovy today, which sounds ridiculous
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 20, 2009
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          I think it could, Coilin...

          If I'm not mistaken, it's still officially called "Ministerstvo skolstvi, mladeze a telovychovy" today, which sounds ridiculous even in Czech and is therefore seldom used.. and no one in their right mind translates it as "Ministry of education, youth and physical education"

          M



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: coilinoc
          To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 1:57 PM
          Subject: [Czechlist] Ministerstvo skolstvi a narodni osveta


          Hi there!
          I have a quick question. Do you think the name of this ministry (which apparently existed in the 1930s) could be satisfactorily rendered in English as simply Ministry of Education? "Ministry of Education and National Enlightenment" sounds a bit ridiculous to me...
          MTIA
          Coilin





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jirka Bolech
          Hi, I suppose Ministry of Education is just fine for the general communication register. They do call themselves Ministry of Education, Youth and Sports as
          Message 4 of 15 , Sep 20, 2009
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            Hi,

            I suppose Ministry of Education is just fine for the general communication
            register. They do call themselves Ministry of Education, Youth and Sports as
            even a quick look at their website, www.msmt.cz, reveals...

            Jirka Bolech



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Martin Janda
            Well.... Ministerstvo skolstvi a narodni osvetY is the ancient name that the Ministry was using in 1918 thru 1942. If the text is a history text (probably is),
            Message 5 of 15 , Sep 20, 2009
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              Well.... Ministerstvo skolstvi a narodni osvetY is the ancient name that
              the Ministry was using in 1918 thru 1942. If the text is a history
              text (probably is), I would translate the name literally (at least the
              first reference) and perhaps added some kind of footnote or other
              explanation.

              hth
              Martin


              Jirka Bolech napsal(a):
              >
              >
              > Hi,
              >
              > I suppose Ministry of Education is just fine for the general communication
              > register. They do call themselves Ministry of Education, Youth and Sports as
              > even a quick look at their website, www.msmt.cz, reveals...
              >
              > Jirka Bolech
              >
              >
            • James Kirchner
              Or just translate it literally without the footnote. Those institutional names that sound clumsy in English can be very revealing as to the beliefs, attitudes
              Message 6 of 15 , Sep 20, 2009
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                Or just translate it literally without the footnote.

                Those institutional names that sound clumsy in English can be very
                revealing as to the beliefs, attitudes and cultural orientation of a
                specific nation and era. Think of those bizarrely named Soviet
                government agencies that may have had approximate Western equivalents
                but whose names revealed things about Soviet culture that a loose
                translation would not convey.

                It just happens that at the time you are discussing, the Czechs formed
                agencies and institutions that had pompous, idealistic names that
                reflected their own pompous idealism. The name and the attitude were
                specific to the era. I think a literal translation of the name would
                provide a lot of important information for orienting the reader.

                Jamie

                On Sep 20, 2009, at 5:26 PM, Martin Janda wrote:

                > Well.... Ministerstvo skolstvi a narodni osvetY is the ancient name
                > that
                > the Ministry was using in 1918 thru 1942. If the text is a history
                > text (probably is), I would translate the name literally (at least the
                > first reference) and perhaps added some kind of footnote or other
                > explanation.
                >
                > hth
                > Martin
                >
                > Jirka Bolech napsal(a):
                > >
                > >
                > > Hi,
                > >
                > > I suppose Ministry of Education is just fine for the general
                > communication
                > > register. They do call themselves Ministry of Education, Youth and
                > Sports as
                > > even a quick look at their website, www.msmt.cz, reveals...
                > >
                > > Jirka Bolech
                > >
                > >
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Martin Janda
                I can t agree more. Just one more detail: I believe osveta is something like awareness raising rather than enlightment which is osviceni and something
                Message 7 of 15 , Sep 21, 2009
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                  I can't agree more. Just one more detail: I believe 'osveta' is
                  something like 'awareness raising' rather than 'enlightment' which is
                  'osviceni' and something completely else.

                  Martn



                  James Kirchner napsal(a):
                  >
                  >
                  > Or just translate it literally without the footnote.
                  >
                  > Those institutional names that sound clumsy in English can be very
                  > revealing as to the beliefs, attitudes and cultural orientation of a
                  > specific nation and era. Think of those bizarrely named Soviet
                  > government agencies that may have had approximate Western equivalents
                  > but whose names revealed things about Soviet culture that a loose
                  > translation would not convey.
                  >
                  > It just happens that at the time you are discussing, the Czechs formed
                  > agencies and institutions that had pompous, idealistic names that
                  > reflected their own pompous idealism. The name and the attitude were
                  > specific to the era. I think a literal translation of the name would
                  > provide a lot of important information for orienting the reader.
                  >
                  > Jamie
                  >
                  > On Sep 20, 2009, at 5:26 PM, Martin Janda wrote:
                  >
                  > > Well.... Ministerstvo skolstvi a narodni osvetY is the ancient name
                  > > that
                  > > the Ministry was using in 1918 thru 1942. If the text is a history
                  > > text (probably is), I would translate the name literally (at least the
                  > > first reference) and perhaps added some kind of footnote or other
                  > > explanation.
                  > >
                  > > hth
                  > > Martin
                  > >
                  > > Jirka Bolech napsal(a):
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi,
                  > > >
                  > > > I suppose Ministry of Education is just fine for the general
                  > > communication
                  > > > register. They do call themselves Ministry of Education, Youth and
                  > > Sports as
                  > > > even a quick look at their website, www.msmt.cz, reveals...
                  > > >
                  > > > Jirka Bolech
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                • Jan Culka
                  Enlightment and enlightenment differ in meaning .... Have a look in a dictionary. Honza ... From: Martin Janda To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday,
                  Message 8 of 15 , Sep 21, 2009
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                    Enlightment and enlightenment differ in meaning .... Have a look in a dictionary.
                    Honza



                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Martin Janda
                    To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 9:29 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Ministerstvo skolstvi a narodni osveta


                    I can't agree more. Just one more detail: I believe 'osveta' is
                    something like 'awareness raising' rather than 'enlightment' which is
                    'osviceni' and something completely else.

                    Martn

                    James Kirchner napsal(a):
                    >
                    >
                    > Or just translate it literally without the footnote.
                    >
                    > Those institutional names that sound clumsy in English can be very
                    > revealing as to the beliefs, attitudes and cultural orientation of a
                    > specific nation and era. Think of those bizarrely named Soviet
                    > government agencies that may have had approximate Western equivalents
                    > but whose names revealed things about Soviet culture that a loose
                    > translation would not convey.
                    >
                    > It just happens that at the time you are discussing, the Czechs formed
                    > agencies and institutions that had pompous, idealistic names that
                    > reflected their own pompous idealism. The name and the attitude were
                    > specific to the era. I think a literal translation of the name would
                    > provide a lot of important information for orienting the reader.
                    >
                    > Jamie
                    >
                    > On Sep 20, 2009, at 5:26 PM, Martin Janda wrote:
                    >
                    > > Well.... Ministerstvo skolstvi a narodni osvetY is the ancient name
                    > > that
                    > > the Ministry was using in 1918 thru 1942. If the text is a history
                    > > text (probably is), I would translate the name literally (at least the
                    > > first reference) and perhaps added some kind of footnote or other
                    > > explanation.
                    > >
                    > > hth
                    > > Martin
                    > >
                    > > Jirka Bolech napsal(a):
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi,
                    > > >
                    > > > I suppose Ministry of Education is just fine for the general
                    > > communication
                    > > > register. They do call themselves Ministry of Education, Youth and
                    > > Sports as
                    > > > even a quick look at their website, www.msmt.cz, reveals...
                    > > >
                    > > > Jirka Bolech
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Martin Janda
                    OK, point taken, thanks Honza! Martin
                    Message 9 of 15 , Sep 21, 2009
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                      OK, point taken, thanks Honza!
                      Martin

                      Jan Culka napsal(a):
                      >
                      >
                      > Enlightment and enlightenment differ in meaning .... Have a look in a
                      > dictionary.
                      > Honza
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Martin Janda
                      > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 9:29 AM
                      > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Ministerstvo skolstvi a narodni osveta
                      >
                      > I can't agree more. Just one more detail: I believe 'osveta' is
                      > something like 'awareness raising' rather than 'enlightment' which is
                      > 'osviceni' and something completely else.
                      >
                      > Martn
                      >
                      > James Kirchner napsal(a):
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Or just translate it literally without the footnote.
                      > >
                      > > Those institutional names that sound clumsy in English can be very
                      > > revealing as to the beliefs, attitudes and cultural orientation of a
                      > > specific nation and era. Think of those bizarrely named Soviet
                      > > government agencies that may have had approximate Western equivalents
                      > > but whose names revealed things about Soviet culture that a loose
                      > > translation would not convey.
                      > >
                      > > It just happens that at the time you are discussing, the Czechs formed
                      > > agencies and institutions that had pompous, idealistic names that
                      > > reflected their own pompous idealism. The name and the attitude were
                      > > specific to the era. I think a literal translation of the name would
                      > > provide a lot of important information for orienting the reader.
                      > >
                      > > Jamie
                      > >
                      > > On Sep 20, 2009, at 5:26 PM, Martin Janda wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > Well.... Ministerstvo skolstvi a narodni osvetY is the ancient name
                      > > > that
                      > > > the Ministry was using in 1918 thru 1942. If the text is a history
                      > > > text (probably is), I would translate the name literally (at least the
                      > > > first reference) and perhaps added some kind of footnote or other
                      > > > explanation.
                      > > >
                      > > > hth
                      > > > Martin
                      > > >
                      > > > Jirka Bolech napsal(a):
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hi,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I suppose Ministry of Education is just fine for the general
                      > > > communication
                      > > > > register. They do call themselves Ministry of Education, Youth and
                      > > > Sports as
                      > > > > even a quick look at their website, www.msmt.cz, reveals...
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Jirka Bolech
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                    • Melvyn
                      ... Still, I think Martin has a point. Perhaps enlightenment has been chosen by some (e.g. check out The Coasts of Bohemia by Derek Sayer in Google Books)
                      Message 10 of 15 , Sep 21, 2009
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                        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jan Culka" <culka@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Enlightment and enlightenment differ in meaning .... Have a look in a dictionary.

                        Still, I think Martin has a point.

                        Perhaps "enlightenment" has been chosen by some (e.g. check out The Coasts of Bohemia by Derek Sayer in Google Books) just to put over a period feel (which might be okay if that is what your genre requires, to answer Coilin's original query), but I think Poldauf and Fronek could often come closer to the intended meaning with their "adult education" - or I sometimes use "continuing education" (though these do not fit in very well here).

                        "Awareness-raising" has a rather modern and jargonish feel to it IMHO, but I don't know. It might work.

                        BR

                        Melvyn
                      • James Kirchner
                        Consciousness raising. Jamie ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 15 , Sep 21, 2009
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                          Consciousness raising.

                          Jamie

                          On Sep 21, 2009, at 3:29 AM, Martin Janda wrote:

                          > awareness raising



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • James Kirchner
                          I can t look up enlightment in the dictionary, because every time I try, the dictionary gives me enlightenment . If you google the word enlightment , you
                          Message 12 of 15 , Sep 21, 2009
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                            I can't look up "enlightment" in the dictionary, because every time I
                            try, the dictionary gives me "enlightenment". If you google the word
                            "enlightment", you get, "Did you mean enlightenment?" and a bunch of
                            sites in which people are evidently misspelling "enlightenment".

                            What dictionary are you looking in?

                            Jamie

                            On Sep 21, 2009, at 4:00 AM, Jan Culka wrote:

                            > Enlightment and enlightenment differ in meaning .... Have a look in
                            > a dictionary.
                            > Honza



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Valerie Talacko
                            I think national enlightenment (not enlightment, I agree) is probably the best translation there is, although not ideal. I think adult education doesn t put
                            Message 13 of 15 , Sep 21, 2009
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                              I think "national enlightenment" (not enlightment, I agree) is probably
                              the best translation there is, although not ideal. I think adult
                              education doesn't put enough emphasis on the "narodni" component in this
                              case. ("National" isn't great, obviously, because it sounds too like
                              nation-wide/state, but I think "national enlightenment" gets the message
                              across OK).

                              Valerie


                              On Mon, 2009-09-21 at 06:14 -0400, James Kirchner wrote:
                              >
                              > I can't look up "enlightment" in the dictionary, because every time I
                              > try, the dictionary gives me "enlightenment". If you google the word
                              > "enlightment", you get, "Did you mean enlightenment?" and a bunch of
                              > sites in which people are evidently misspelling "enlightenment".
                              >
                              > What dictionary are you looking in?
                              >
                              > Jamie
                              >
                              > On Sep 21, 2009, at 4:00 AM, Jan Culka wrote:
                              >
                              > > Enlightment and enlightenment differ in meaning .... Have a look in
                              > > a dictionary.
                              > > Honza
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • James Kirchner
                              Maybe national awareness ? Jamie ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Message 14 of 15 , Sep 21, 2009
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                                Maybe "national awareness"?

                                Jamie

                                On Sep 21, 2009, at 8:23 AM, Valerie Talacko wrote:

                                > I think "national enlightenment" (not enlightment, I agree) is
                                > probably
                                > the best translation there is, although not ideal. I think adult
                                > education doesn't put enough emphasis on the "narodni" component in
                                > this
                                > case. ("National" isn't great, obviously, because it sounds too like
                                > nation-wide/state, but I think "national enlightenment" gets the
                                > message
                                > across OK).
                                >
                                > Valerie
                                >
                                > On Mon, 2009-09-21 at 06:14 -0400, James Kirchner wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I can't look up "enlightment" in the dictionary, because every
                                > time I
                                > > try, the dictionary gives me "enlightenment". If you google the word
                                > > "enlightment", you get, "Did you mean enlightenment?" and a bunch of
                                > > sites in which people are evidently misspelling "enlightenment".
                                > >
                                > > What dictionary are you looking in?
                                > >
                                > > Jamie
                                > >
                                > > On Sep 21, 2009, at 4:00 AM, Jan Culka wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > Enlightment and enlightenment differ in meaning .... Have a look
                                > in
                                > > > a dictionary.
                                > > > Honza
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Jan Culka
                                Maybe stupid but often useful http://www.slovnik.cz/ . Honza ... From: James Kirchner To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 12:14 PM
                                Message 15 of 15 , Sep 21, 2009
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                                  Maybe stupid but often useful http://www.slovnik.cz/ .
                                  Honza



                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: James Kirchner
                                  To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 12:14 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Ministerstvo skolstvi a narodni osveta


                                  I can't look up "enlightment" in the dictionary, because every time I
                                  try, the dictionary gives me "enlightenment". If you google the word
                                  "enlightment", you get, "Did you mean enlightenment?" and a bunch of
                                  sites in which people are evidently misspelling "enlightenment".

                                  What dictionary are you looking in?

                                  Jamie

                                  On Sep 21, 2009, at 4:00 AM, Jan Culka wrote:

                                  > Enlightment and enlightenment differ in meaning .... Have a look in
                                  > a dictionary.
                                  > Honza

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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