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Re: [Czechlist] Diakritika

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  • Mike Trittipo
    They say that no other translators ever do that. They re wrong. I leave the diacritics on Czech names of people and on the names of places for which no
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 15, 2009
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      "They say that no other translators ever do that."

      They're wrong. I leave the diacritics on Czech names of people and on the
      names of places for which no separate English name is current. So "no other
      ... ever" is wrong as a factual matter.

      Moreover, to leave the diacritics off is often (maybe not always, but
      often) wrong-HEADED as a stylistic, editorial, professional, or policy
      matter.

      Some translations MUST included the diacritics. For example, the Czech
      consular policy on verifying translations into English REQUIRES that the
      diacritics be preserved. The Bluebook (the nearly universal authority for
      how to cite legal materials) (1) allows transliteration (which is what
      omitting the diacritics really is, in the end) ONLY for languages that do
      not use the ROMAN (aka Latin) alphabet (which Czech does), and (2) in every
      example of _named_ Czech sources of law and every example of a _named_
      court includes the diacritics.

      The Chicago Manual of Style assumes for every language it provides any
      detail at all for that diacritics will be preserved in names of people and
      places. (See. esp. sections 10.14 and 10.21.) The University of Virginian
      Press says (http://www.upress.virginia.edu/authorinfo/msprep1.html) that it
      "prefers original-language spelling of place-names (cities and provinces;
      rivers and other geographical features): København, Lisboa, München.
      Naturally, in your MS you should retain diacritics and special letters (á,
      ø) as in the original." It goes on to say (same URL) "Use diacritics and
      special letters correctly in all place-names and names of individuals."

      Of course, those are U.S. sources. I don't know what Oxford might say.

      Granted, there are dinosaurs out there. The New York Times says to use
      diacritics ONLY on French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and German, and
      NOT to use any accent mark or diacritic other than the acute (arguably
      equivalent to a length mark), grave, circumflex, cedilla, tilde, and
      umlaut. So Scandi or Slavi languages are out in the cold at the NYT. The
      main justification for newspapers seems to be that _wire_ services are like
      SMS: they garble anything that's not 7-bit ASCII. But that's just
      newspapers and wire copy, not a "NObody EVER" rule.

      For a _birth certificate_ I'd guess that it's more common to use the
      diacritics than not. But then if your contact doesn't know that "née" is
      the bog-standard English to designate a maiden name, you may not get very
      far telling her that "nobody ever does" is negated by "most do." :-)
    • Josef Hlavac
      Hi all again, ... That s a bad justification, then. Even the simplest a with the acute accent has no place in pure 7-bit ASCII and won t get through a
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 15, 2009
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        Hi all again,
        > [...] NOT to use any accent mark or diacritic other than the acute (arguably
        > equivalent to a length mark), grave, circumflex, cedilla, tilde, and
        > umlaut. So Scandi or Slavi languages are out in the cold at the NYT. The
        > main justification for newspapers seems to be that _wire_ services are like
        > SMS: they garble anything that's not 7-bit ASCII.
        >

        That's a bad justification, then. Even the simplest "a with the acute
        accent" has no place in pure 7-bit ASCII and won't get through a
        non-Unicode SMS. Perhaps they mean the ISO 8859-1 a.k.a. Latin1
        encoding? Even so, they're still a hopeless dinosaur, just like
        yahoogroups :)

        Other than that, thanks for an excellent argument, Mike.

        Josef
      • Charlie Stanford
        Thank you to all of you. I have bamboozled her with extracts from all of your responses and hopefully got the message across. Funny because she wrotes the most
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 15, 2009
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          Thank you to all of you. I have bamboozled her with extracts from all of your responses and hopefully got the message across. Funny because she wrotes the most wonderful English and yet then questions something like "née".

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Mike Trittipo
          To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:59 PM
          Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Diakritika


          "They say that no other translators ever do that."

          They're wrong. I leave the diacritics on Czech names of people and on the
          names of places for which no separate English name is current. So "no other
          ... ever" is wrong as a factual matter.

          Moreover, to leave the diacritics off is often (maybe not always, but
          often) wrong-HEADED as a stylistic, editorial, professional, or policy
          matter.

          Some translations MUST included the diacritics. For example, the Czech
          consular policy on verifying translations into English REQUIRES that the
          diacritics be preserved. The Bluebook (the nearly universal authority for
          how to cite legal materials) (1) allows transliteration (which is what
          omitting the diacritics really is, in the end) ONLY for languages that do
          not use the ROMAN (aka Latin) alphabet (which Czech does), and (2) in every
          example of _named_ Czech sources of law and every example of a _named_
          court includes the diacritics.

          The Chicago Manual of Style assumes for every language it provides any
          detail at all for that diacritics will be preserved in names of people and
          places. (See. esp. sections 10.14 and 10.21.) The University of Virginian
          Press says (http://www.upress.virginia.edu/authorinfo/msprep1.html) that it
          "prefers original-language spelling of place-names (cities and provinces;
          rivers and other geographical features): København, Lisboa, München.
          Naturally, in your MS you should retain diacritics and special letters (á,
          ø) as in the original." It goes on to say (same URL) "Use diacritics and
          special letters correctly in all place-names and names of individuals."

          Of course, those are U.S. sources. I don't know what Oxford might say.

          Granted, there are dinosaurs out there. The New York Times says to use
          diacritics ONLY on French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and German, and
          NOT to use any accent mark or diacritic other than the acute (arguably
          equivalent to a length mark), grave, circumflex, cedilla, tilde, and
          umlaut. So Scandi or Slavi languages are out in the cold at the NYT. The
          main justification for newspapers seems to be that _wire_ services are like
          SMS: they garble anything that's not 7-bit ASCII. But that's just
          newspapers and wire copy, not a "NObody EVER" rule.

          For a _birth certificate_ I'd guess that it's more common to use the
          diacritics than not. But then if your contact doesn't know that "née" is
          the bog-standard English to designate a maiden name, you may not get very
          far telling her that "nobody ever does" is negated by "most do." :-)





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        • James Kirchner
          I never leave out the diacritics, and I have never had anyone complain about them being there. I would imagine that if I left them out most agencies I deal
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 15, 2009
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            I never leave out the diacritics, and I have never had anyone complain
            about them being there. I would imagine that if I left them out most
            agencies I deal with in the States would call and ask me why.

            I would consider a translator who leaves out the diacritics to be
            unprofessional, not only because they were not thorough, but because
            they probably haven't even bothered to learn how to set up the Czech
            keyboard driver on their PC.

            Jamie

            On Jul 15, 2009, at 1:26 PM, Charlie Stanford wrote:

            > Hi there everybody,
            > Sorry if this is a well-worn topic but I am just having a bit of a
            > dust-up with an agency about a birth certificate because I left the
            > diakritika in the names of the people and the places and they say
            > that no other translators ever do that. What do you reckon? Am I
            > wrong to leave it in? Seems to me that there is a vast difference
            > between someone called Cap and someone called Èáp but I don't want
            > to go into a row without a bit of back-up.
            > Thank you for any input.
            > Charlie
            >
            >
            > --
            > Jsem chránìn bezplatným SPAMfighter pro soukromé u¾ivatele.
            > A¾ doposud mì u¹etøil pøíjmu 7272 spam-emailù.
            > Platící u¾ivatelé tuto zprávu ve svých e-mailech nedostavají.
            > Stáhnìte si zadarmo SPAMfighter zde: www.spamfighter.com/lcs
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Translators' tricks of the trade:
            > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
          • James Kirchner
            It may be that she s experienced with people translating Spanish and French in all caps, because in those languages they generally leave the diactrics out in
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 15, 2009
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              It may be that she's experienced with people translating Spanish and
              French in all caps, because in those languages they generally leave
              the diactrics out in all upper case. Maybe she didn't mean "nobody"
              does that with Czech, but that "nobody" in her world does that.

              Jamie

              On Jul 15, 2009, at 7:47 PM, Charlie Stanford wrote:

              > Thank you to all of you. I have bamboozled her with extracts from
              > all of your responses and hopefully got the message across. Funny
              > because she wrotes the most wonderful English and yet then questions
              > something like "née".



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Romana
              Nazdar kolegove, muze mi nekdo pomoct s nemeckym prekladem nebo s vysvetlenim vyrazu sv. kuklu ? Je to soucast OOPP (ochranneho vybaveni pro pracovniky na
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 16, 2009
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                Nazdar kolegove,



                muze mi nekdo pomoct s nemeckym prekladem nebo s vysvetlenim vyrazu "sv.
                kuklu"?



                Je to soucast OOPP (ochranneho vybaveni pro pracovniky na montazi), k cemuz
                take patri: "ochranne bryle, sv. kuklu vc. nahradnich skel, prilba,
                bezpecnostni uvazky ..." Take ty "uvazky" mi nejsou zcela jasne.



                S pozdravem z Australie



                Romana



                (Mame tady 21.25 hodin)



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Alena Rysková 2e
                sv. - svarecska kukla - uvazky je neco, co pouzvaji i horolezci, pro prace ve vyskach Alena ... From: Romana To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 16, 2009
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                  sv. - svarecska kukla - uvazky je neco, co pouzvaji i horolezci, pro prace ve vyskach
                  Alena
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Romana
                  To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 1:56 PM
                  Subject: [Czechlist] sv. kuklu


                  Nazdar kolegove,

                  muze mi nekdo pomoct s nemeckym prekladem nebo s vysvetlenim vyrazu "sv.
                  kuklu"?

                  Je to soucast OOPP (ochranneho vybaveni pro pracovniky na montazi), k cemuz
                  take patri: "ochranne bryle, sv. kuklu vc. nahradnich skel, prilba,
                  bezpecnostni uvazky ..." Take ty "uvazky" mi nejsou zcela jasne.

                  S pozdravem z Australie

                  Romana

                  (Mame tady 21.25 hodin)

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Romana
                  Sv. – svarecka! To by mi nikdy nenapadlo! Dekuji, Aleno. From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alena Rysková 2e
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 16, 2009
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                    Sv. – svarecka! To by mi nikdy nenapadlo!

                    Dekuji, Aleno.



                    From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    Of Alena Rysková 2e
                    Sent: Thursday, 16 July 2009 9:29 PM
                    To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Czechlist] sv. kuklu





                    sv. - svarecska kukla - uvazky je neco, co pouzvaji i horolezci, pro prace
                    ve vyskach
                    Alena
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Romana
                    To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 1:56 PM
                    Subject: [Czechlist] sv. kuklu

                    Nazdar kolegove,

                    muze mi nekdo pomoct s nemeckym prekladem nebo s vysvetlenim vyrazu "sv.
                    kuklu"?

                    Je to soucast OOPP (ochranneho vybaveni pro pracovniky na montazi), k cemuz
                    take patri: "ochranne bryle, sv. kuklu vc. nahradnich skel, prilba,
                    bezpecnostni uvazky ..." Take ty "uvazky" mi nejsou zcela jasne.

                    S pozdravem z Australie

                    Romana

                    (Mame tady 21.25 hodin)

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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