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Re: [Czechlist] Re: Psychoanalysis of a project manager

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  • Matej Klimes
    Yeah, the curse of the .pdf that lost its parents ... Trouble is people who know the lineage (how the .pdf was born) seldom have anything to do with the
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 3, 2009
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      Yeah, the curse of the .pdf that lost its parents ...

      Trouble is people who know the lineage (how the .pdf was born) seldom have anything to do with the translation process, or any other use of the final document... they SHOULD anticipate some use and SHOULD make sure the text is either available as TXT, or DTP, but they often don't care.. then the secretary sends you a pdf asking for the translation "to be the same" without realising different languages lead to different structures and lengths (German and Russian being the best example, sometimes up to 50% size increase compared to English or Czech)..

      IMHO even with the best DTP process, tags and god knows what, you can't expect a translation to come out in a perfect layout and all documents for publication should be laid out again in the target language..

      The only thing that's slightly surprising about your story is that your person works in an agency and should be aware of these issues... some of these people are not and some choose not to be and some just pile customers' #@!~ onto your head instead of dealing with it, not sure which is worse..

      M




      -
      ---- Original Message -----
      From: James Kirchner
      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 11:59 PM
      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Psychoanalysis of a project manager


      Thanks, guys.

      I would have been happy if she'd sent a TTX file, which I could have
      done in MemoQ, but she sent it as an ITD file, which MemoQ wouldn't
      import. I tried exporting it to TTX in the TagEditor, which I (maybe
      erroneously) understand was once possible, but isn't in Trados 2007.

      I understand why someone would take a DTP file and create a TTX file
      out of it. That's not controversial.

      However, what happened here was that someone had extracted an article
      from the PDF edition of some magazine, and they wanted it reproduced
      in more or less the same format.

      In my world it often happens that the end client's company did the DTP
      and created the PDF, and then the DTP went bye-bye somehow, nobody
      knows where it is, and they want you to produce something from the PDF
      that kinda sorta resembles the DTP. In my experience, these people
      have no clue how the PDF was born or, in computer terms, who the mommy
      and daddy are.

      Another thing that happens (especially with German companies, for some
      reason) is that one department does the original DTP, produces the PDF
      and distributes it to the other departments. Then another department
      needs it translated and wants the format preserved, but due to
      security concerns or some other bureaucratic issue, the originating
      department won't let go of the original DTP. The other department
      then wants a close facsimile of the PDF produced by the translation
      house, not actually realizing what's involved.

      Jamie

      On Feb 2, 2009, at 5:15 PM, Martin Janda wrote:

      > 100% seconded. And as I've mentioned already, MemoQ should be able to
      > handle TTX files - I don't understand why to work in Tag Dreaditor....
      >
      > Martin
      >
      > Jaroslav Suchánek napsal(a):
      > >
      > >
      > > The source files (for technical translations, manuals, etc.) are
      > > generally distributed in some DTP format (Pagemaker, FrameMaker in
      > > past years, Indesign in these days, according to my experience).
      > > PDF is the result replacing a hardcopy, and/or just for translator's
      > > reference (to be able to see the tables, pictures, layout, etc. in
      > > overall context).
      > > Professional CAT tools have their input conversion interface, and
      > DTP
      > > files conversion into translation enviroment is usually very simple,
      > > and maintaining of DTP tags, etc. is quite reliable. Some of these
      > > tools are more or less user-friendly for us, and TagEditor is
      > > probably the most unfriendly, AFAIK.
      > > The PDF>Word conversion is unnecessary and ineffective process, that
      > > causes DTP layout loss/damaging, and requests manual conversion of
      > > translated DOC file back to the DTP software and clients wants to
      > > omit that (the work of DTP experts is quite expensive too).
      > > Therefore I quite understand the PM behaviour you mentioned. She
      > sent
      > > you the TTX files for translation (and PDF as a print preview only)
      > > and expected the same file format she could smoothly convert into
      > > original DTP. All my clients work the same way.
      > > HTH
      > > Jarda
      > >
      > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist
      > %40yahoogroups.com>,
      > > James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Thanks. I think that in this case there was no need to convert
      > > the
      > > > file to another format. My guess is that she just wants it to stay
      > > in
      > > > the same format and assumes that not every translator can convert
      > > a
      > > > PDF file or maintain the format of a Word file.
      > > >
      > > > I'll ask her next time.
      > > >
      > > > Jamie
      > > >
      > > > On Feb 2, 2009, at 2:37 PM, kzgafas wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > I guess best thing is to ask her. But it seems that there is
      > > reason
      > > > > why she wants to preserve formatting tags. She will be probably
      > > > > DTPing translation into the original look. TaqEditor also allows
      > > to
      > > > > convert to HTML and upload on the web. Just ask her.
      > > > >
      > > > > K.
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      > > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, James Kirchner <jpklists@>
      > > wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Guys,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I'm just trying to psychoanalyze a project manager in a
      > > different
      > > > > > state who sends me work, and I was wondering if anyone has any
      > > > > ideas.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > If most of my clients have a PDF file that's from electronic
      > > text,
      > > > > > they normally send me the PDF as it is. I then convert it to
      > > Word
      > > > > or
      > > > > > something, maintaining the formatting as best as the programs
      > > will
      > > > > > allow, import it into my preferred CAT tool, export it back to
      > > > > Word
      > > > > > and send it back.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I've got some lady on the west coast who sends me the PDF
      > along
      > > > > with a
      > > > > > TagEditor file. What she apparently does is convert the PDF
      > file
      > > > > to
      > > > > > Word, then she imports it to TagEditor, and finally she
      > sends me
      > > > > the
      > > > > > PDF along with the TagEditor file.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > The TagEditor is infuriating to work in, and I think it
      > triples
      > > > > the
      > > > > > time it takes me to do a job, as well as lowering my accuracy.
      > > > > This
      > > > > > past time I complained about getting a TagEditor file, and she
      > > sent
      > > > > me
      > > > > > the Word file she'd made from the PDF. I did it in another
      > tool
      > > > > > (MemoQ this time), and gave the translation back to her with
      > all
      > > > > the
      > > > > > formatting intact.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > My question would be this: Why does this lady go through all
      > > > > those
      > > > > > steps and send me the horrible TagEditor file instead of just
      > > > > giving
      > > > > > me the PDF or Word file and asking me if I can give it back in
      > > the
      > > > > > same format, and maybe with TM? What in the mind of a project
      > > > > manager
      > > > > > would motivate this?
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Thanks for any insights.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Jamie
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >

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    • James Kirchner
      When I worked in business-to-business magazine publishing, mainly for Detroit industry, we didn t have to lay out the target language versions over again,
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 3, 2009
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        When I worked in business-to-business magazine publishing, mainly for
        Detroit industry, we didn't have to lay out the target language
        versions over again, because our designers were smart enough to ask
        the translation agency rep how much "air" to leave in their layouts to
        accommodate the various languages. (And, man, that rep really knew
        his job!) So the English design used to look light and airy, while
        the French, Spanish and German usually had all the text space filled,
        but all the layouts looked like they were supposed to be that way, and
        we didn't have to cut. The challenge was Chinese, because that
        always came out about a third shorter.

        The funny part was how much the length would vary just among
        individual translators. When we had General Motors Canada's internal
        translation department do the French, it would add a third to a half
        to the length of the text. Sometimes a headline would go from one
        line to three or four lines. I would have to call and coach the
        translator into making the text more compact somehow. Then the GM
        client had us switch to a reputable private translation house in
        Toronto, and they handed over French text that was the same length or
        shorter than the English without any loss or change in meaning. It
        was astonishing.

        Jamie

        On Feb 3, 2009, at 4:11 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:

        > IMHO even with the best DTP process, tags and god knows what, you
        > can't expect a translation to come out in a perfect layout and all
        > documents for publication should be laid out again in the target
        > language..




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